iK: Er, he says to disregard as much as you can about his older works (with Amusement Makers, i.e. PC98), just as you would disregard fanmade games as canon. It's pretty well not up to interpretation. I'm not sure why you guys need to try to find some sort of validation in the PC98 series as if a little glimmer of loophole in rhetoric means it's totally ok to regard everything as canonical and equivalent to the Windows games in story, characters, etc.
Just as well, you shouldn't need to explicitly look for a reason to support the PC98 series. It looks like that's what's being done and it's just silly. You don't need proof to ratify your views about the series to anyone, as long as you aren't trying to rationalize and utilize those views as argument.
Starsword: It's similar on your side. You don't need to use overdrawn logic like "well it wasn't explicitly stated anywhere so we can't make assumptions on it". While technically true, it doesn't really help along the discussion, it's just trying to pound the opposition's views back. Furthermore, even if the PC98 series shouldn't be used as precedent or canon, the evidence, however small, does favor Alice and Yuuka "being the same person" as they were back then more than it favors any alternative. Doesn't prove anything, but you don't need to try to drown those kinds of assumptions. Of course, game2011 using the word "proof" didn't help, but eh.
Hao: one thing I noticed was the "this time," thing, which is pretty much invalidated by the meaning of the japanese term, which is different than your proposed connotation. Pretty insignificant and otherwise I agree with what you say, but again, eh.
I mean I like Yuuka as much as the next person but it is kind of annoying not to see any love for anyone else, especially when I like the cast so much.
I dunno, that'd be the ONLY reason why I'd even bother seriously playing a Windows Touhou game period. You know, wanting to see them again is EXACTLY the rationale for my support for any sort of PC-98 revival, regardless of what it's bundled with, because I can deal with shitty stuff I don't like in games if I feel the good stuff outweighs it. So I'm not really sure how this point is relevant at all if you bothered reading my post.
I do agree wholeheartedly, I would like some of the more prominent old characters to return as well. The thread subject kind of rolls on the assumption that there is a demand for the characters to begin with though, so I didn't bother taking people's desire to bring them back as a strong argument or even a point of discussion. The only huge anomaly I see is Yuuka, and I do agree that it is inconsistent and arguably unfair, but yeah. I'm not saying that people wouldn't want some characters back, that's just silly.
I don?t agree with your point [...], so I consider your argument to be invalid.
lolwat
I'm sorry for brushing off the walls of text, but you simply did not understand anything I said in all three of my posts, where I'm pretty sure I've made my thoughts perfectly clear (although with trance's posts i'm starting to doubt that). In any case, if you had to admit that you don't get what I'm talking about, why did you bother arguing against everything I said in the first place? It honestly feels like you're arguing past me, at some invisible target, and you're just arguing against absolutely everything I said simply because I don't agree with the thread's concept. If I didn't know better I would just call this out as a massive strawman wallpost. Giving people no quarter just because they disagree generally leads to faulty arguments, and just plain isn't very nice.
- I am not arguing that nobody wants PC98 characters back, the whole thread is based on the fact that people want the characters back so of course people want them back.
- I am not arguing that inane characters in Windows are less inane than ones in PC98 (although you seem to be arguing the converse which is just as wrong)
- Neither am I arguing that characters in Windows are more "fleshed-out" in terms of how you're defining it, because you're confuddling "fleshed-out" with "has some not-completely-insignificant character attributes".
I could swear if Alice was never brought back by Zun, everyone would say ?No, she will never come back, she has no relevance to gensokyo, blah blah blah? And nowadays she is one of the most popular among touhou cast. So, I disagree with you. The older characters should not be looked down upon, because it was still Zun?s works, even though it was his first works.
I actually thought I pointed out why Alice isn't as big of a discrepancy as Yuuka is, but I guess not. First of all, you're completely right in the first phrase. If Alice was never brought back, we would give her just as much significance and Yuki and Mai, i.e. none. The thing with Alice is that she is completely and utterly different from her PC98 self. If you look through absolutely everything about Alice, besides the little theories about her wanting to create life as Shinki did, she and PC98 Alice are nothing alike. Nothing about Shinki, nothing about Makai, nothing about any characterization made in PC98 or any references to her having anything in common with her younger self. She has a/the grimoire, dolls, the vague reference to having met before, and the not-wanting-to-lose-at-full-power gig, none of which are core to her being PC98 Alice; just core to keeping her image. If the concept of the character was interesting, then sure he could just recycle it, just as he probably would again if he brought back some other vanished character. She is a completely and utterly new character, thrown in the body (well, not even) of Alice. Don't get me wrong, she's quite obviously the same character. She just is not the
same character. Reimu is the same. Marisa is the same. Yuuka is more or less the same, which is why I can't poof her away. Alice is now a magician youkai, has a solid characterization (notably different from PC98 Alice), has hobbies of collecting books and dollmaking, and is noted to be similar to Marisa and is often bickering with her. She now has a house and all of these hints at previously existing in Gensokyo and is randomly not a loli anymore. While she is obviously the same "Alice" from PC98, she might as well be just as new of a character as Letty.
This is all still related to my central points above, and is most definitely related to ZUN "resetting" the series. EoSD marks his disassociation with Amusement Makers, and it marks when he took the whole series on himself and resolved to do things "properly".
Back in the NES times [etc]
Has very little to do with what we're talking about. Even besides the odd simile though:
1. you're using standards from some games as standards for another, which is faulty;
2. what you personally think doesn't describe a trend nor does it make your statement any truer
3. you're tossing out all literary significance put into games just because some games were still good without much of it, which is not only faulty, it's insolent. I agree more or less with the content and sentiment, but your argument isn't helped.
But if you insist, then I could make some alterations,
I didn't insist. I was saying that
no matter the silly excuses you could think of for characters to fight, they don't help towards what I'm talking about. Can you
please go attempt to understand what I am saying, because I really don't want to have to write my thoughts out again in different words just because you won't stop arguing against it despite not knowing what you're arguing.
