A good way to bring all PC-98 characters back at once: Coliseum Mode

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

While playing a bit of Tales of Symphonia, an idea crossed my mind. There?s a place called the ?coliseum? on that game and most other ?tales of? games. There you fight characters from previous games as cameo opponents, those are always the last and most difficult coliseum fights.

Why can?t we use a similar approach in Touhou? I mean, like Ten Desires overdrive mode, the coliseum mode would be unlocked under certain conditions, like successfully clearing random spell cards on different difficulty settings. To unlock ?Cherry Blossom Blizzard Hell? (Yuyuko?s overdrive), you must first capture ?Saigyou Cherry Blossom Blizzard? (SC 13 and 14) on each difficulty setting.

To unlock cameo fights of PC-98 characters, you?d first have to capture the regular characters spellcards (Bosses from stage 1 ~ 6). Each of those characters would have an ?affinity? that would represent what cameo fight would be unlocked on coliseum mode.

Regular Bosses Affinity List:

Stage 1 Boss: Neutral
Stage 2 Boss: Youkai
Stage 3 Boss: Melee
Stage 4 Boss: Science
Stage 5 Boss: Magic
Stage 6 Boss: Demon

PC-98 Characters Affinity List:

Neutral: Shingyoku
Youkai: Orange | Yuuka
Melee: Meira  | Elly | Yumeko
Science: Rika | Rikako | Chiyuri | Yumemi
Magic: Sariel |Mima | Ellen | Kotohime | Kana |Young Alice | Yuki | Mai
Demon: Ellis | Konngara | Kurumi | Mugetsu | Gengetsu | Sara | Louise | Shinki

Okay, now let me explain, for example? if you capture all spellcards of Stage 3 on Easy mode, you?d unlock battle with Meira. If you capture all of them on Normal mode, you?d unlock Elly?s Battle. Capturing a single certain stage 6 SC on Hard mode would unlock battle with Konngara. Rather, by capturing the last one on lunatic mode, you?d unlock Shinki?s battle. And so on? Different conditions would be applied in order to unlock different characters.

I was thinking about this mode more like STB. The boss fights would have no dialogue whatsoever, but there would be a comment for each spell card, although, all of the characters would still have artwork, like Kisume. She doesn?t exchange dialogue with the player character, but you can see her artwork when she uses the spell card. There would be a single background for all characters (The coliseum arena). And all of the characters would have either 3 or 4 spellcards depending on their strength. (Similar to STB and DS).

3 spell cards:
Shingyoku | Rika | Meira | Ellen | Kotohime |Kana | Rikako | Orange | Kurumi | Sara | Louise

4 spell cards:
Ellis | Sariel | Konngara | Mima | Chiyuri | Yumemi | Elly | Yuuka |Mugetsu | Gengetsu | Young Alice | Yuki | Mai | Yumeko | Shinki

By adding all of this up, we?d get 93 spellcards total. More or less what Double Spoiler Have.

As for the purpose of the fights? There would be none. We all know touhou characters loves fighting each other, the installment of a coliseum in gensokyo would operate solely for the purpose of providing fun and enjoyment through battles, and also to prove who is the strongest.

So? if Zun is always saying ?I can?t bring old characters back because I can?t find an excuse to fit them on the story? Well, here is his excuse. Btw, let's take this topic considering that Zun has NO copyright issues with amusement makers.

[Vyrien]

Personally, I would love this mode. Not only would it cater to the character-starved PC-98 fans but it would also add a bit of extra challenge and playability to the game. Extending the time we would play it for. It also gives, like you said, an excuse to drop the characters right back in. Plus ZUN can compose music for them (which I believe is the reason he made the games in the first place).

[Zil]

Anything that lets you go right into a boss battle without going through a stage beforehand would be cool, and I'd love to see those PC-98 characters come back and throw some spellcards around.

[Spiderpig2398]

I'd fund it.

[Savory]

Off-topic: I'd LOVE to play a Touhou game based on Tales on Symphonia

On-topic: That's an interesting idea.

[Sophilia]

This sounds like something that would work best in a new fighter, actually.  I'm imagining something like how the secret fighters in the tournament mode of One Must Fall worked.  So if you beat Sakuya without taking a certain amount of damage you might get a surprise challenge from Yumeko.  Or on Marisa, using no spellcards may get you Ellen, but finishing her with Reimu's special Fantasy Heaven brings Mima out to play.

[Drake]

The primary thing I think PC98 would need to be able to make an actual return is plot and world relevance. While throwing random characters into an extra mode just to fight them is still totally valid as a shmup concept and I would still be ecstatic, it seems very, well, PC98. That kind of stuff was OK before EoSD because there wasn't really any permanence to the characters or solid story or explanations connecting the characters. Once EoSD hit, while characters didn't really need a reason to exist (Rumia, Letty, Alice, mostly everyone) they're still there because they're bound to the world and they're equally bound to the world because they're in the game. Tossing in a bunch of PC98 characters just to fight them still doesn't solve the problem of not being able to explain their presences.

Off-topic: I'd LOVE to play a Touhou game based on Tales on Symphonia

i deject this notion and replace it with "I'd LOVE to play a Tales-style game based on Touhou"

[Yukari-Chan]

i deject this notion and replace it with "I'd LOVE to play a Tales-style game based on Touhou"

Objection!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why not?

[Savory]

i deject this notion and replace it with "I'd LOVE to play a Tales-style game based on Touhou"

Yeah, that's what I meant.

[Beef Owl]

I lurk too much on these forums without bothering to post (I've really gotta stop doing that ^^;) but Drake's point is something a lot of people never think about. The matter of plot relevance also can attest to why it is so difficult to reintegrate the PC-98 characters. The continuity and overall setting of Gensokyo never really was founded in that era, so those characters tend to inherently lack that trait. Some characters have a more well-found setting, like the Makai residents, but many lacked initiative, that is, a reason to be involved in the story. Without such a mechanism, there is no real way to drag many of these characters out, especially since most of them aren't just "there," but rather are in other worlds or dimensions or such.

I think the idea from a gameplay perspective is fine, but a cameo is not a reintegration. That's like saying an extra character added to a game through DLC or something that has no plot relevance has been integrated into the game.

Of course, that said, if you're going to go with a bullet photography game that exists solely for bullet hell, by all means, as long as the characters address the ludicrous setup with typical Touhou snarks :V but for a Tales-style RPG, no one's gonna tolerate a throw-away plot without a damn good reason

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

The primary thing I think PC98 would need to be able to make an actual return is plot and world relevance. While throwing random characters into an extra mode just to fight them is still totally valid as a shmup concept and I would still be ecstatic, it seems very, well, PC98. That kind of stuff was OK before EoSD because there wasn't really any permanence to the characters or solid story or explanations connecting the characters. Once EoSD hit, while characters didn't really need a reason to exist (Rumia, Letty, Alice, mostly everyone) they're still there because they're bound to the world and they're equally bound to the world because they're in the game.

I lurk too much on these forums without bothering to post (I've really gotta stop doing that ^^;) but Drake's point is something a lot of people never think about. The matter of plot relevance also can attest to why it is so difficult to reintegrate the PC-98 characters. The continuity and overall setting of Gensokyo never really was founded in that era, so those characters tend to inherently lack that trait. Some characters have a more well-found setting, like the Makai residents, but many lacked initiative, that is, a reason to be involved in the story. Without such a mechanism, there is no real way to drag many of these characters out, especially since most of them aren't just "there," but rather are in other worlds or dimensions or such.

I think the idea from a gameplay perspective is fine, but a cameo is not a reintegration. That's like saying an extra character added to a game through DLC or something that has no plot relevance has been integrated into the game.

You guys aren't getting my point, so I'm going to say it again:

>>> "As for the purpose of the fights? There would be none. We all know touhou characters loves fighting each other, the installment of a coliseum in gensokyo would operate solely for the purpose of providing fun and enjoyment through battles, and also to prove who is the strongest." <<<

If we don't make it this way, the PC-98 characters would NEVER come back. If we try to give a good reason even for insignifcant characters such as Sara or Ellis to come back, then we'd take at least 30+ touhou games to finish this task. Just imagine something like putting a single PC-98 character as extra stage boss on each game from touhou 14 and on? It'd take forever. (Not to mention that it would suck) And I know no one wants to see PC-98 chars as regular bosses... I mean such as a stage 3 or 4, because I know everyone wants new characters. Maybe we'd consider some as exceptions, such as Mima or Shinki. I presume many people would not have any complaints to see such important characters as regular stage bosses.

Tossing in a bunch of PC98 characters just to fight them still doesn't solve the problem of not being able to explain their presences.

Excuse me? I said very clearly that the purpose of that would be simply to give an excuse to bring the characters back, and so we can see how their spell cards would work. Btw, when you say those fights are purposeless (Not that I'm not aware of that) you're forgetting about games such as STB or GFW. I can't see a very "solid" purpose to bring up fights on those games. Aya simply wants to take snapshots, and the fairies are just having a silly childish war. Even though, those games are still official. Btw, even on commercial games such as the "Tales Of" series, we can fight those cameo characters on the coliseum, but just for the hell of it. Why would we bother with an excuse? A fight between our favorite characters is already good enough. A coliseum mode in a touhou game would not exactly make part of the "real story" but it would work simply as something like a "sidequest"

Besides, if you want something to explain those characters presence, then we could simply have zun making another book such as PMiSS, but this time regarding information about the PC-98 characters (which by the way, I think zun were supposed to make such a book even though I predict he would never bring the old characters back).

but for a Tales-style RPG, no one's gonna tolerate a throw-away plot without a damn good reason

Well, I never said I wanted a Tales-style RPG touhou game. That was savory's off-topic idea.

if you're going to go with a bullet photography game that exists solely for bullet hell, by all means, as long as the characters address the ludicrous setup with typical Touhou snarks :V

That could work, I'd not complain about it.

[Desu_Cake]

I think what everyone's saying is that even if this was done, it wouldn't actually be bringing the characters back. Or not properly at least.
I would assume that for anyone who isn't already familiar with the PC98 games, their only thought during this mode would be "Who are all these people? Why aren't they in anything else?", and for those who are, it would seem like a cheap cop-out rather than actually bringing them back.
But maybe I'm being overly pessimistic.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

I think what everyone's saying is that even if this was done, it wouldn't actually be bringing the characters back. Or not properly at least.
I would assume that for anyone who isn't already familiar with the PC98 games, their only thought during this mode would be "Who are all these people? Why aren't they in anything else?"
But maybe I'm being overly pessimistic.

Well, either that, or no PC-98 chars back. Because as for me, I can't think of anything better. It would suck to waste the "spot" of a new character, by for example... putting someone like yumeko as a stage 4 boss of a new game even if she came up with a HELL of an explanation for why she is there.

and for those who are, it would seem like a cheap cop-out rather than actually bringing them back.

Sure, sure, if that's the case, Zun should not have created characters like Rumia, Letty, Wriggle, Mystia, Minoriko, Kogasa, Cirno and a bunch others. Heck, he should not have created most of the PC-98 characters. Because they're all "Cheap and poor-excuses of characters that are irrelevant to the story" And as such, games like EoSD, would start from Meiling, having only 4 stages. Because it's only important from meiling and on. PCB would only have 3 stages, because it's only really important from the prismrivers and on. It would suck no? Where is your Kami now?

Thank goodness zun created those useless characters.

[Desu_Cake]

Sure, sure, if that's the case, Zun should not have created characters like Rumia, Letty, Wriggle, Mystia, Minoriko, Kogasa, Cirno and a bunch others. Heck, he should not have created most of the PC-98 characters. Because they're all "Cheap and poor-excuses of characters that are irrelevant to the story" And as such, games like EoSD, would start from Meiling, having only 4 stages. Because it's only important from meiling and on. PCB would only have 3 stages, because it's only really important from the prismrivers and on. It would suck no? Where is your Kami now?

Thank goodness zun created those useless characters.

Nooooo... You're missing my point. All those characters get appearances in the literary works, some in the fighting games etc. In StB, most of the characters don't have any dialogue and there's no reason for them to be there -except that BAiJR has interviews with them. This allows people to view them more as fully developed characters, no matter how minor a role they have.
My main point was that it would seem like a half-hearted attempt to placate the PC98 fans, unless there was something more to go with it.

[Zil]

I think it would be entirely possible to integrate a few of them into the plot of a windows game. Bringing every single one back like that would be kind of "out there," but just some of the more popular ones would be quite doable. That's how Alice and Yuuka returned, after all. Alice didn't really have any reason to be there, but ZUN did it anyway.

[Drake]

>>> "As for the purpose of the fights? There would be none. We all know touhou characters loves fighting each other, the installment of a coliseum in gensokyo would operate solely for the purpose of providing fun and enjoyment through battles, and also to prove who is the strongest." <<<

Well, yes, I got that, but I don't think you got what I was saying, rather.

If we don't make it this way, the PC-98 characters would NEVER come back. If we try to give a good reason even for insignifcant characters such as Sara or Ellis to come back, then we'd take at least 30+ touhou games to finish this task. Just imagine something like putting a single PC-98 character as extra stage boss on each game from touhou 14 and on? It'd take forever.

So? If it's so incredibly difficult to be able to bring a mass amount of random characters back that had zero background or significance to begin with, why would you even want to bring them back in the first place?

I said very clearly that the purpose of that would be simply to give an excuse to bring the characters back, and so we can see how their spell cards would work.

Which might as well be purposeless, imo. The only attachment they have to the series at all is "they were in a game", which by itself is pretty empty. You could use that argument for almost anything: I want a banana character because I want to see their danmaku. The banana character would provide just as much previous world relevance as Sara, has an equal capacity for exploration and an equal chance for danmaku. But, the banana is new and Sara isn't. That's pretty much the only difference I can see.

Btw, when you say those fights are purposeless (Not that I'm not aware of that) you're forgetting about games such as STB or GFW. I can't see a very "solid" purpose to bring up fights on those games. Aya simply wants to take snapshots, and the fairies are just having a silly childish war. Even though, those games are still official. Btw, even on commercial games such as the "Tales Of" series, we can fight those cameo characters on the coliseum, but just for the hell of it. Why would we bother with an excuse?

As I mentioned and as you seem to have missed, take a look at all of these examples. StB and DS? They're all using characters that have been introduced previously and already are fleshed out. Hatate is an exception as a new character, but is immediately given relevance and background. The same goes for GFW, but the biggest difference is that ZUN uses Daiyousei, a character with no background. However, EoSD shows that she actually exists in Windows Gensokyo, she has a connection with Cirno, is also a fairy, and fans have already turned her into a semi-relevant character. For a similar reason that Momiji was fleshed out in DS, Daiyousei was given another appearance. None of these are really applicable to many PC98 characters, although I could think of a few. Tales is the same way; all the cameos are fleshed-out characters from previous games, even though they aren't relevant to the current game. Tales series and Touhou are completely different, in any case, so using Tales as a standard for what Touhou should do is a bit off.

Besides, if you want something to explain those characters presence, then we could simply have zun making another book such as PMiSS, but this time regarding information about the PC-98 characters (which by the way, I think zun were supposed to make such a book even though I predict he would never bring the old characters back).

Yes, way to go. That's the whole problem. Work and effort for something that doesn't really need to happen.

Sure, sure, if that's the case, Zun should not have created characters like Rumia, Letty, Wriggle, Mystia, Minoriko, Kogasa, Cirno and a bunch others. Heck, he should not have created most of the PC-98 characters. Because they're all "Cheap and poor-excuses of characters that are irrelevant to the story" And as such, games like EoSD, would start from Meiling, having only 4 stages. Because it's only important from meiling and on. PCB would only have 3 stages, because it's only really important from the prismrivers and on. It would suck no? Where is your Kami now?

Er, you're missing the point, as DesuCake explained above. Also, what happened to my "Once EoSD hit, while characters didn't really need a reason to exist (Rumia, Letty, Alice, mostly everyone) they're still there because they're bound to the world and they're equally bound to the world because they're in the game."? The whole reason ZUN didn't bring many PC98 characters over in the first place was because they largely had no background, no relevance to anything, absolutely nothing at all to get them to all work fluidly together or reason to be brought back. The reason is they aren't here right now is exactly because he thinks they shouldn't have been thrown in so haphazardly. The standard was set immediately as the Windows series started, as even the completely inane, random characters have relevance to Gensokyo as a whole.

[trancehime]

So? If it's so incredibly difficult to be able to bring a mass amount of random characters back that had zero background or significance to begin with, why would you even want to bring them back in the first place?

I want them back because I enjoyed and fell in love with more PC-98 designs than I did Windows characters. Furthermore, I dislike the Windows games more. The number of Windows characters I care about are countable on my two hands, while to some degree I find endearing almost the entirety of the PC-98 cast, even those nameless bosses, even those insignificant characters with their own idiosyncrasies. While I understand the reasoning behind not having a game like this, I find it incredibly insensitive to make such comments like that.

EDIT:

Which might as well be purposeless, imo. The only attachment they have to the series at all is "they were in a game", which by itself is pretty empty. You could use that argument for almost anything: I want a banana character because I want to see their danmaku. The banana character would provide just as much previous world relevance as Sara, has an equal capacity for exploration and an equal chance for danmaku. But, the banana is new and Sara isn't. That's pretty much the only difference I can see.

* TranceHime glares at Yuuka Kazami

[haoreos2]

You want to bring characters you liked from games you enjoyed into games you dislike with a cast you're indifferent to? o.O

[Drake]

Bad wording on my part, sorry. What I meant to say was, if you were just going to take all the characters in PC98, bunch them all together as just some mass of characters, create no actual story or reason why they're there or have them cleanly integrate into Gensokyo in the first place like a proper game would do, what's the point of actually "bringing them back"? You won't actually be bringing them back or anything, it just seems a bit lazy to go "i want pc98 back" and then plop them in fights without giving them anything more than that. I guess it'd be like "yay they have some danmaku now" but it still doesn't do much for the characters or your original intent.


as for yuuka kazami i have no concrete and legitimate explanation so i'm going to use "she's youkai moe" as my excuse
The only thing I can think of is that ZUN having worked on the first two Seihou games let him use Reimu and Marisa as extra bosses in Shuusou, and Yuuka as an additional character in Kioh. Both of those games were after the PC98 series, but were also before the Windows series. That addition to Kioh Gyoku might have been all he needed to formally bring her into the Windows series. But hey, it could have just as easily have been "ok i want yuuka back now for no real reason at all, plop"

[Starxsword]

I am still in the belief that Yuuka is the one who suggested the spell card rules.

[game2011]

I know a better way to bring back the PC-98 characters: Remake the first five games.

I know they still won't have any relevance to the current plot and setting of the series, but at least we get to see them in more modern-looking games, right?

[Zil]

If ZUN remade PoDD it would probably be my favorite game in the series. It's practically my favorite as it is now.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

So? If it's so incredibly difficult to be able to bring a mass amount of random characters back that had zero background or significance to begin with, why would you even want to bring them back in the first place?

Why would I bother bringing them back? Simple answer: To satiate their Fan Base. We all know many people want to see some PC-98 characters back, something that proves this affirmation are youtube videos about their themes. If you go to something like a vid about ellen, you?ll see among the comments stuff like ?Ellen is my fav PC-98 char, I want her back T_T? or a Meira vid: ?She is such an intriguing char with an awesome theme, I want her back!? Mima is the best example, there are loads of comments like ?MIMAAAAAAAAAAA!!! TwT? And the same could apply to all characters, because there will be always someone to love them. So, why not attending their wishes? I think it?s kind of cruel the sensation of knowing they will never be back. And it?s not exactly me that wants them back, as I mentioned before, I still prefer new characters instead, but I know some people don?t think this way. As such, I think it would not hurt to see Zun concretizing their desires somehow.

As I mentioned and as you seem to have missed, take a look at all of these examples. StB and DS? They're all using characters that have been introduced previously and already are fleshed out. Hatate is an exception as a new character, but is immediately given relevance and background. The same goes for GFW, but the biggest difference is that ZUN uses Daiyousei, a character with no background. However, EoSD shows that she actually exists in Windows Gensokyo, she has a connection with Cirno, is also a fairy, and fans have already turned her into a semi-relevant character. For a similar reason that Momiji was fleshed out in DS, Daiyousei was given another appearance. None of these are really applicable to many PC98 characters, although I could think of a few. Tales is the same way; all the cameos are fleshed-out characters from previous games, even though they aren't relevant to the current game. Tales series and Touhou are completely different, in any case, so using Tales as a standard for what Touhou should do is a bit off.

I don?t agree with your point that this isn?t applicable for many PC-98 characters, so I consider your argument to be invalid. I could say a character like sara has more relevance than someone like Daiyousei, because as useless and without background as she is, she is still the Gatekeeper of Makai. She has a purpose to exist, and that purpose is fulfilling her role as a Gatekeeper to prevent intruders in Makai. I could say the same for another useless character: Louise. Even though she has no development, she had a purpose to fight the player character, she wanted to visit gensokyo, player character got into the path and didn?t agree with her attitude, so, she fought for her ideal in order to accomplish it. She wasn?t like ?I want to fight! Fight me now!? No, as I said, she had a purpose to fight. Meira is another example, she was greedy and wanted the power of hakurei for herself, so , she fought Reimu. Now, what about Daiyousei? She just attacked the heroine on EoSD stage 2 out of nowhere without even exchanging dialogue (Same case occurred on GFW) and we still don?t know why the hell she did that. Now why do you say a character like her is more ?fleshed out? than those previously mentioned PC-98 characters? because she is related to another equally useless character such as cirno? because she is on windows and has a more beautiful sprite? Seriously, give me a break. What makes a character ?fleshed out? or not, isn?t the fact that said character is on windows or PC-98, and if a character like Daiyousei is moderately popular, it?s due to fandom, and not canon, because fandom generally attributes a background even to silly and purposeless characters. One of the things that would explain characters like Daiyousei or Koakuma?s popularity, is the fact that those characters are on EoSD which is among the most popular touhou games, and not because they are important/relevant or whatsoever.

Er, you're missing the point, as DesuCake explained above. Also, what happened to my "Once EoSD hit, while characters didn't really need a reason to exist (Rumia, Letty, Alice, mostly everyone) they're still there because they're bound to the world and they're equally bound to the world because they're in the game."? The whole reason ZUN didn't bring many PC98 characters over in the first place was because they largely had no background, no relevance to anything, absolutely nothing at all to get them to all work fluidly together or reason to be brought back. The reason is they aren't here right now is exactly because he thinks they shouldn't have been thrown in so haphazardly. The standard was set immediately as the Windows series started, as even the completely inane, random characters have relevance to Gensokyo as a whole.

Well, unless if you make it more clear, then yes. I?m missing the point and I don?t think I?ll ever get your point. Because characters like Letty or Wriggle or Mystia, are as inane and random as most of the PC-98 ones, regardless of how much literary works/spin offs or whatever they got in. And although most of the PC-98 cast is inane, they still HAVE relevance to Gensokyo, because they make part of Gensokyo?s universe. I could swear if Alice was never brought back by Zun, everyone would say ?No, she will never come back, she has no relevance to gensokyo, blah blah blah? And nowadays she is one of the most popular among touhou cast. So, I disagree with you. The older characters should not be looked down upon, because it was still Zun?s works, even though it was his first works.

Which might as well be purposeless, imo. The only attachment they have to the series at all is "they were in a game", which by itself is pretty empty. You could use that argument for almost anything: I want a banana character because I want to see their danmaku. The banana character would provide just as much previous world relevance as Sara, has an equal capacity for exploration and an equal chance for danmaku. But, the banana is new and Sara isn't. That's pretty much the only difference I can see.

Which is something that bothers me. Back in the NES times (which was one the consoles I grew up with) most, and really MOST of the games had particularly not really interesting stories, but they were just as fun (and even more fun, imo) as the newer games. Back in the past the bosses, enemies, had particularly zero background or development. They were simply there. To get into the path of the player character and prevent him/her from going further. Despite how silly those games were, they still sold a lot and got a place into the hearts of many people (I was one among them). What I?m trying to say is that I see the PC-98 cast the same way. But nowadays people are trying to give relevance/background/development/backstory/depth/etc  even to a Banana. Which isn?t something really fundamental imo. If I want a really good story, then I go watch a soap opera or read a novel book or something of the sort. If you ask me, good story ≠ fun.

But if you insist, then I could make some alterations, instead of ?Coliseum Mode? we could have something like ?Random Lesser Confrontations In Gensokyo? so, instead of throwing random fights inside an arena, the characters would rather have an actual purpose to fight. But to diminish work and effort, we could just have the boss battle without a stage. Every character would be given an excuse to fight, and I can give some examples:

Rika
?I spent years creating this machine, and now I?m going to prove you that science is superior than magic, you bitch!? As such, she creates a new machine/tank/battleship/whatever that is like 10x stronger than evil eye sigma, and then we fight her in a difficulty level equal to a phantasm boss.

Meira
That would be simple, another attempt to get the power of Hakurei. But this time she is a Kensei (Sword?s Saint) and has mastered several sword techniques, making her far stronger than before.

Sara
Reimu decides to close and seal makai?s gate for once to prevent possible invasions in the future. Needless to say, Sara is against it. And then she fights in order to defend the Gate. (Only Reimu can be used against her)

Elly
Yuuka is sick and the only cure for her disease is a Magic Mushroom Tea that can only be made with the right ingredients (Mushrooms from the Forest of Magic) Since Yuuka is so sick and unable to fight or walk properly, she sends Elly in order to gather the ingredients and cure her. But Marisa sees the familiar face getting mushrooms there, and since she is so selfish to the point of wanting all of the mushrooms to help her making magical recipes, she puts a fight against Yuuka?s minion. (Only marisa can be used)

Yumeko
A perfect maid contest is taking place in gensokyo, all of the maids are gathering there to win the Title and prize. Sakuya and Yumeko are the finalists, and the final test is a danmaku fight. (Sakuya only)

Are you happy now? I could think of many other examples, everyone else could as well. The only thing required is imagination. And before you say ?Those excuses are still stupid? then, explain Alice. (I?m going to quote her official words on PCB to explain what I mean)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reimu: The night is cold. It's also when my eyesight is the worst.
Alice: Is even the warmth of your spring insufficient for pushing away this cold?
Reimu: Yeah, I guess it's not.
Alice: Long time no see.
Reimu: We've only just met.
Alice: No, that's not what I meant.
Reimu: Am I supposed to remember?
Alice: Don't you remember me? Well, either way is fine.
Reimu: Setting that aside, what did you mean by "the warmth of my spring"?
Alice: I was referring to a degree of spring in your mind.
Reimu: I wish mine's doesn't reach too high. Still, why has this winter been so long?
Alice: Because there's someone who's gathering spring.
Reimu: And you have nothing to do with it?
Alice: Of course not.
Reimu: Bye.
Alice: Hey!
Alice: >>> At last, former friend, we meet again. Have you only brought me your life as a gift? <<<
Reimu: I won't be called "former friend" by a fool who plays around with seven-colored magic.
Alice: After all shrine maiden, your two-colored powers are a mere twenty-eight-point-five-seven-one-four percent as powerful as mine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, she only fought Reimu out of revenge, and that was enough to bring her back. If you consider this silly excuse to be good enough to include her on windows cast, then the silly excuses I pointed out for those characters are good enough as well.

[trancehime]

But hey, it could have just as easily have been "ok i want yuuka back now for no real reason at all, plop"

See, that's the thing.

I mean I like Yuuka as much as the next person but it is kind of annoying not to see any love for anyone else, especially when I like the cast so much.

You want to bring characters you liked from games you enjoyed into games you dislike with a cast you're indifferent to? o.O

I dunno, that'd be the ONLY reason why I'd even bother seriously playing a Windows Touhou game period. You know, wanting to see them again is EXACTLY the rationale for my support for any sort of PC-98 revival, regardless of what it's bundled with, because I can deal with shitty stuff I don't like in games if I feel the good stuff outweighs it. So I'm not really sure how this point is relevant at all if you bothered reading my post.

[haoreos2]

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The problem is, you have to do it the right way, or it will have the reverse effect. Many fans will feel it is a copout if their favourite character is brought back without having a significant role in the game they return in, or don't get much focus on written materials, or have a dissapointing fight/sprite/theme or feel betrayed when they realize the character is just a new character with the same name and similar design like Alice and Yuuka with a completely different backstory, or a reboot like Reimu.

Paragraph 2

Daiyousei was a character introduced living in the misty lake, and unarguably never retconned out of existence. You go back to that same area in a later game, where she is unambiguously still inhabiting, so it makes perfect sense to bring her back. Regardless of plot relevance or dialogue, she has world relevance: you are setting foot in her territory, which is reason enough to fight in the setting. You don't leave lions out of a savanna-trekking story just because their most eloquent dialogue is "rawr", and bringing back one that the audience is already familiar with enhances the setting.

Paragraph 3

I might be reading that wrong, but I sure hope you aren't demeaning ZUN's literary works. Those things are a great read.
Anyway! The old cast still having relevance is debatable. I may be mistaken here, but the only characters I know of that have been carried over are Reimu, Marisa, Alice and Yuuka. Unless someone has significant evidence to the contrary, Reimu and Marisa both seem like textbook cases of reboots to me; similar personalities, tweaked designs, different origin, but the same general theme (miko and witch). Alice and Yuuka aren't even reboots, they're new characters with names and some design aspects taken from the old heap. Alice went from an Alice in Wonderland kid to a rainbow puppeteer of Reimu's age, and Yuuka went from an idle rich dreamer with her own dimension to a flower youkai. For that matter, aren't most of the PC-98 characters from other dimensions, or makai, or something? If that's the case, then out of all the windows games, it would only really make sense for them to pop up in the last levels of UFO, and even then that's like expecting to run into one specific person you know when visiting the continent they live on. Being a game you could easily excuse that, but it would still have the effect of "What, this character was brought back as a inconsequential midboss?? RAAAAAAAHGE" among her fans.

Paragraph 4

That's fair enough, not everyone is into character development. The problem is, the majority of people are, and ZUN is one of them. Having a character brought back just as a cameo for no in-story reason may be great for people who like the nostalgia and don't care for the story, but for everyone else it opens plot chasms.
The easiest way to go about this idea would be not trying to integrate it with Windows Gensokyo, but actually make it as if it were a PC-98 era game: include no windows characters, canon or the like, have Reimu, Marisa, Yuuka and Alice have their old designs, and essentially make it entierly non-canon to the windows world.

Rika
“I spent years creating this machine, and now I’m going to prove you that science is superior than magic, you bitch!” As such, she creates a new machine/tank/battleship/whatever that is like 10x stronger than evil eye sigma, and then we fight her in a difficulty level equal to a phantasm boss.

Off topic, but if there were a touhou fandom drinking game, "Fan of an obscure or MIA character wanting to bring her back as a phantasm boss" alone would knockout most contenders.

I dunno, that'd be the ONLY reason why I'd even bother seriously playing a Windows Touhou game period. You know, wanting to see them again is EXACTLY the rationale for my support for any sort of PC-98 revival, regardless of what it's bundled with, because I can deal with shitty stuff I don't like in games if I feel the good stuff outweighs it. So I'm not really sure how this point is relevant at all if you bothered reading my post.

The point is, you're taking gems from a gold chalice and dumping them into a pile of coal stored in a mud bowl, and expecting them to shine. There's a chance that not only will you not enjoy the game, but that that feeling will rub off on the characters you used to like. As an analogy, imagine eating too much of your favourite food one day, resulting in you throwing up. Your brain links that food to sickness, and from then on when you're exposed to the it, you feel nauseous instead of enjoying it.
Alternatively, ever watched a series (or read a novel or somesuch) that you were really enjoying, but the ending was so bad that it sullied the rest, so you won't even enjoy the early episodes if you rewatched them?

[game2011]

Unless someone has significant evidence to the contrary, Reimu and Marisa both seem like textbook cases of reboots to me; similar personalities, tweaked designs, different origin, but the same general theme (miko and witch).

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but according to the instruction manual of Touhou 6, they are the same characters from the PC-98 games.

Reimu

Chronologically, this title is not too far from the previous title, thus her age stays the same as before.

Unintentionally, she is a shrine maiden. Or rather, she is a shrine maiden only because the Touhou series has become the "Shrine Maiden Shooting Game" series. It feels like the cart has been placed before the horse to me.

This time, her outfit is not overly intricate like typical shrine maiden clothing, but has become quite simple and only remotely resembles that of a shrine maiden. Is she really a shrine maiden?

She's more like "You, red-white!" in my opinion.

Marisa

This girl is also one of the protagonists. These two (Marisa and Reimu) are the heroines of the Touhou series.

Marisa has a very uncooperative personality, and she really has a pretty bad personality. Although she's human, she remains distant from other humans. It's questionable as to whether she really is human, but she is.

This time, she's wearing something resembling an apron, so it's hard to tell if she's a magician or what.

[haoreos2]

I dunno, if I were rebooting a character and explaining the differences, "This time" seems like a reasonable phrase to use: "Here I am making another Spiderman reboot. This time, his webs are part of his powers instead of coming from a web-shooter he made".
The other bolded sentence is admittedly harder to handwave; I mean, it could just be that their dates of birth weren't changed, but it does seem like an odd way to put it if that's the case. Problem is, it contradicts the discrepency in Alice's age if that's the case. Of course, keeping it vague does give ZUN more options, so it's probably intentionally self-contradictory.

[game2011]

There are some theories that try to explain her age change, such as it being the grimoire's side effect.

Also, there's another proof in Touhou 9 that it's the same Reimu and that Touhou 6 isn't a reboot of the series:

Yuuka: Do you think that ignoring the events back then, would bring everything back to normal?
Reimu: Everything went back to normal when I defeated you back then!

[trancehime]

The point is, you're taking gems from a gold chalice and dumping them into a pile of coal stored in a mud bowl, and expecting them to shine.

Alternatively, ever watched a series (or read a novel or somesuch) that you were really enjoying, but the ending was so bad that it sullied the rest, so you won't even enjoy the early episodes if you rewatched them?

You're assuming the gameplay is the mud bowl in the first place.

That can easily be fixed. The pile of coal? Who says I need to care about them? Perspective, man. The novel/movie analogy doesn't even apply here because to fully enjoy the immersion that novels and movies offer viewers you have to look at it holistically. Characters in a video game of THIS particular nature aren't exactly essential to the full enjoyment of the game when I can just play the game with the people I like. It's the main reason why I bothered playing IaMP for a year despite the fact I hate fighting games and my only opponents were Mizuumi folks who were about 10¹⁰⁰⁰ magnitudes better than me.

[haoreos2]

@game2011: if you want to explain the age discrepency by a completely unfounded idea of the grimoire having an aging affect, couldn't you just explain that quote away with the logic "Reimu probably defeated her in a previous incident we haven't been made privy to"?
As an aside:

Apparently ZUN has stated several times that the PC-98 series isn't actually canon to the windows series (the wiki actually has links to those various interviews). Thus any reference to a PC-98 game in the Windows games is more like a mythology gag than a confirmation that the entire PC-98 series is canon to it.

(Admittedly I haven't checked this yet, so I'll have to do so before putting to much weight on it)

You're assuming the gameplay is the mud bowl in the first place.

That can easily be fixed. The pile of coal? Who says I need to care about them? Perspective, man. The novel/movie analogy doesn't even apply here because to fully enjoy the immersion that novels and movies offer viewers you have to look at it holistically. Characters in a video game of THIS particular nature aren't exactly essential to the full enjoyment of the game when I can just play the game with the people I like. It's the main reason why I bothered playing IaMP for a year despite the fact I hate fighting games and my only opponents were Mizuumi folks who were about 10¹⁰⁰⁰ magnitudes better than me.

Fair enough, I can respect that.