Author Topic: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III  (Read 216051 times)

Helepolis

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2011, 01:48:11 PM »
Actually wouldt koa deal less overall damage because with 5 people now, the damage is more spread out. Same thing happened with yukari, with added 5th player she became less effective
That was the same in lane with creeps before. Team fights aren't going to change it. But during lane phase, Koa was already strong and now its spamfest with more dmg.

Not to mention her ult is now 45s, so with control rod you're gonna nuke pretty good late game. Mass resistance stacking, GO!



Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2011, 02:01:10 PM »
Remillia got a damage boost, how do you feel about that Helepolis?

Helepolis

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2011, 02:09:10 PM »
Remillia got a damage boost, how do you feel about that Helepolis?
Disappointed. She won't be achieving high damage like she used to and her nightless remains gimp.

Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2011, 02:18:19 PM »
Remi is a snowball character i would think, if she can get alot of gungir kills early game she can pretty much dominate

Amraphenson

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2011, 07:07:53 PM »
She's been a snowball character for a while now. Early hakkero Remi is hard to deal with. Haven't had any games yet where early fed Remi hasn't won.
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CloverNaght

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2011, 06:23:43 AM »
isn't Remi already been a snowball girl since hakkero existed lol
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Dular

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2011, 06:42:22 AM »
isn't Remi already been a snowball girl since hakkero existed lol

Well back in the old days Hakkero Remi was basically 12 seconds of invincibility in exchange for becoming absolutely useless afterwards.

Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2011, 07:49:29 PM »
Change of plans from me. Apparently I'll be away from the comp for the rest of this week, so I've gone on to finish whatever I had left of the translation of v0.977g2. I'm leaving it here without releasing it on touhou.cc first because it hasn't been playtested nor bughunted (blah. head honcho says to release it anyway) - it's quite likely that there're a few things that I've missed out in the translation in all my haste, though I did try to correct some of the bazillion description mistakes in the original map. Feel free to use !load dotseng2 on either Reisen or Sakuya to host it if you guys want to try it out. Otherwise I'll have to playtest the thing myself when I get back ;_;

http://www.mediafire.com/?zvzqyteztha9xu3

If anyone does play it, please either @later tell me on irc or post here regarding any bugs or untranslated phrases in the map... danke!  :D

v0.977h English: http://www.mediafire.com/?f0ye39ulv10s5hp

Fixed some little bits and ends like Kanako/Suwako's descriptions and Shikieiki's guilt records not being fully translated and some dumb typo in the description of the Grapes item. There weren't many changes from 0.977g2 to 0.977h, so I took the liberty of just patching the English map from the changelog myself, and added in a fix for Lunasa's D skill cooldown being reduced by 40% by the Nuclear Control Rod. Goodness knows she's powerful enough without the bug already. Well, as before, use !load dotseng2 to play the v0.977h map.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 09:51:06 AM by ApharmdB »

Helepolis

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2011, 08:15:23 PM »
No problem.

We'll see if we can do something about them wiki now as well this weekend.

Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2011, 08:05:06 PM »
I'm a little hesitant about posting this here seeing as how the v0.977 maps generally haven't been well-received in our little group, but what the hell. There're sizeable communities even on HF playing v0.967g and older versions too. There're merits in each game that the different versions offer anyway, but that's not the point of this post.

I'm now on the dev team for the map, doing assorted stuff besides just editing and translating the descriptions while waiting for random tasks. By assorted stuff I mean things like jass coding and debugging, design and gathering feedback and such. All of which means I finally have some say in what goes into the map, though the final design decisions will always be made by the head honcho of course.

So this is really an invitation for anyone who's interested in giving suggestions and balance feedback for the map to post them here and I'll discuss it with the team and hopefully something will come out of it. How much stuff gets implemented will probably depend a bit (lot) on how lazy we (I) feel :3

I could write a lot more on game design and balance, but I'd prefer to see what others think first. So shoot away...

Oh, one of the first things I brought up and which we're tweaking now is the mana costs for certain item skills - direct damage skills are quite ridiculous with no mana cost no matter the cooldown and no matter how I analyze it.

On another note, I've uploaded the translated THF map onto Sakuya. You can also get it here - http://www.mediafire.com/?xobsmd5dum6y9y8
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 08:12:37 PM by ApharmdB »

Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2011, 09:45:38 PM »
Lunasa srsly, what stops her from going into the jungle go red and pull a 2000+ crit possible twice. Lower the range of her ult and maybe remove the spell crit and make it just straight up bonus damage.

Next up is lily... she sucks, that is all.

Chen needs a buff, between 5 people and a bunch of disbales i would bet its hard to get that +damage going

Iku, to reliant on her ult i think, and even then a stun screws her over. Possibly give her pull an active so her next attack is 100%.

Momiji, i hate you so much >:(

Kogasa, in a 5v5 game i think you suck

Murasa, why u do dis to her hook, dum as reimu now

Nue, scaling makes it harder to snowball wtf
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 10:07:27 PM by Frankenstein »

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2011, 10:10:39 PM »
Utsuho seems pretty terrible now it looks like everyone who was a good nuker got buffed while she was nerfed in comparison due to Int gain and manacosts.

inb4 oh you have F to regen mana clearly you have infinite mana and it doesn't matter because you can definitely cast a spell right after a sub par 6 second channeling ult that eats your entire mana pool.

Amraphenson

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2011, 04:20:35 AM »
(start up F before ult)

Yeah Okuu is kind of...really sad now.
Murasa is horrible
Reimu is a lot better withs caling
Iku needs something to make her better, jeez, I agree with Rawr.
Chen needs babysit really badly.
lol Lily.
Kogasa needs babysit badly too. less so then Chen, admittedly.
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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2011, 07:06:38 AM »
Murasa, why u do dis to her hook, dum as reimu now

Murasa is horrible

What're you guys talking about??? Hint: Giant Shanghai Doll :V :V :V

(Admittedly it's against the official rules...)

Dular

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2011, 07:28:02 AM »
I would just note that a lot of chinese players have wildly different strategies than us.  What we may perceive as weak can be OP over there.  Murasa for instance is definitely a strong person because she has the best mobility with a very strong initation skill and group disable(setting it up for other allies such as Byakuren, Tenshi, Cirno, etc to set up their disable skills which would normally kill them to get so close) and with a temporary super tank skill.  Everyone knows that once Spinach activates, the enemy just runs.

We just don't use her very well, nor often.  I think Rawr and myself are the only ones who play her with any sort of regularity and we typically do very good, even if we lose we have good scores.

Sanae definitely needs something done about her.  The scaling on *Stabbed by TranceHime*


Totally agree with the Iku buff, maybe re-do even.  She could be a support agi(or int) type like Lyrica.  I would say swap out Angel's Raiment "Veils Like Space" for Orb Sign "Orb of the Five-clawed Dragon", which sets up a wall of 300/350/400/450 length with a cast range of 300/400/500/600 which does minor damage, say 50/100/150/200 if you pass through the wall, but if you pass through the wall you get a debuff called 'shocked' which stuns you for .3 seconds whenever a hero attacks you.  The debuff lasts for 5 seconds and the wall lasts for 5 seconds.

I think that would be pretty cool.

I'd say something about items, but I don't really have any ideas myself.


Edit: Apharm asked me to write this down.  Dragon God's Wrath: Create a rune on the ground that is viewable by allies but not by enemies.  When an enemy girl steps onto the rune she takes minor damage and is pulled 400 distance to Iku, if Iku is within 1000 distance of the rune.  Area of effect of the rune is 100, and lasts for 15/20/25/30 seconds and has a cooldown of 10 seconds.  No other details.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 08:08:50 AM by Dular »

Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2011, 10:38:15 AM »
I though murasa was good just because of her ganks....

Also yea those ideas were posted with us in mind, not chinese level tournament play :V

trancehime

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2011, 11:06:32 AM »
Yeah, seriously, Dular.

Sanae just got neutered for no good reason.

No seriously somebody tell me why Sanae got the short end of the stick.

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2011, 12:53:47 PM »
She doesnt, she offers aoe: invuln, stun, slow, map wide mp gain, and free faith. Shes like every utility a team needs rolled into one. Same reason ran was nerfed and now has similar aoe on her ult.

Edit: and shes a slut
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 01:02:16 PM by Frankenstein »

Amraphenson

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2011, 03:39:17 PM »
Her mobility tool feeds gold and is most vulnerable when being used for one of its more useful purposes. Hook now doesn't bypass creeps. You can see toilet flush a mile away.

She keeps getting nerfed based on their meta, which is level 1 ganks and such. Obviously Murasa, who has two of the best tools for disrupting and isolating who you want to kill, would be nerfed based on that.

However, our complaints are based on our meta, not the chinese one. As much as the nerfs might make sense for them, it doesn't for us. Especially when we don't play 977.

I mean, seriously. Blink coins, crucifix, storm crow? Murasa doesn't do anything besides let you pick off one dude repeatedly. Wait. Not you. The rest of your team. Because you don't have any disables that let you use spinach to its full potential. Oops.

And tbh I haven't seen you play Murasa very well, Dular. Looking at the chinese replays, you also don't play like them either. We don't play like them, so obviously we're not gonna have the same opinions as them.

We just have this weird code of honor, hence the bans, and hence the complaints. My complaint is that murasa is getting nerfed incessantly, and in addition those nerfs aren't really doing anything about the reason she's percieved as OP over there anyway. She still pulls you away for five seconds of uninterrupted gangrape. It's what boats used for; getting you around to different lanes to help buddies gank. Not gank, help buddies gank. It isn't so much a five man team if you have Murasa, it's more of a four man team with an intelligent grappling gun.

I'm of the opinion that their style is 'proactive' in comparison to our 'reactive'. We wait for a situation to become beneficial, then we exploit. They just make their own oppurtunities. Which is why we ban Rumia, why we ban Camera, why we ban Wriggle, why we ban Lunasa, and why we don't like 977. The meta shifted so that reactive styles are just ineffective; we're all aware of the absurdly long lasting, unstoppable pushes in 977. Characters like Marisa and Lunasa are at the forefront when it comes to 'proactive', and they've been buffed. Lunasa nullifies a reactive style by punishing you if you don't kill the fuck out of her immediately. Reactive gameplay is why we see more catpunching Orin compared to zombie apocalypse Orin, and why we complain about Orin and Alice in general. Yamame completely nullifies any sort of reactive, oppurtunistic pudh unless it's a really big one, hence hate. etc etc.

That's my opinion though. I honestly think we should start adapting, guys. Despite being fully aware of DotS being an international game by now, the DotS devs are tailoring it to one community: theirs. I can't hold that against them, but if we just keep going expecting them to make changes based on what we want, we're just going to rage. Things are stupid on a lot of fronts, yeah, but w/e.

tl;dr Murasa is single purposed now, and we need to dwi.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 06:54:46 PM by Amra »
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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2011, 04:35:05 PM »
Also this has been mentioned by a few people but couldn't Nue get some AGI ratios in addition to her int ratios to open up the agi carry build a bit more as it was before?

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #80 on: December 16, 2011, 09:30:13 PM »
Actually, my major complaint about the Murasa nerf would be the wacky Anchor hitbox.
Also, I do not wish to be included in the collective complaint group.

Anyway, back to not caring I go.

Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #81 on: December 16, 2011, 09:55:18 PM »
I think the anchor hitbox has something to do with terrain. Gotta look a bit more into that. I haven't played Murasa enough (or at all) to notice it :P

Amraphenson

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #82 on: December 16, 2011, 11:39:37 PM »
And yeah, there are some of us who really just can't be bothered to care. :V
Sugoiiii~
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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #83 on: December 17, 2011, 02:05:43 AM »
Okuu is pretty hard to play now. In a 5v5 the enemies get more disables and your ult has a really low chance to succeed. But really, 4s cd for her D??? With Control Rod it's even more spammable and you'll easily dominate early. Well perhaps that's why Okuu is useless late-game, but there's a Dragon Star item :| Still it's hard for me with all this lag :(

And probably Chinese DotS players play Murasa similar to Koreans. They use SDL and Stopwatch to keep their target in place. Now with nerfed hook, she just require more skill to play.

What I don't like about DotS now is the items, why did they remove the auto-combine function and replace it with priceless recipes? That's kind of a bummer.

Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #84 on: December 17, 2011, 03:20:01 AM »
Might the perceived UPness of certain heroes have to do with our communication in-game as well?
admittedly, I haven't played dots for a while now, and with only 2-3 games here as of late, things may have changed alot.
But from my experience, people don't seem to communicate that much when we play. someone will call out "need help in this lane, gank or swap plz" then proceed to get ignored by the entire team. (examples like having the enemy carry freefarm because the team ignores the fact that the person is getting outlaned) As well, we play with little more than a ping and "gank" or "b" or "push". Basically, it seems like the team-dependent heroes look weak because we play like a bunch of LoL players in normal queue, lacking communication between our team and soloing a team game.

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #85 on: December 17, 2011, 03:23:51 AM »
Well, when playing with specific people, I'll put a fair amount of emphasis on maintaining communication.
But yeah, communication (or, rather, the lack thereof) is a pretty big factor in our metagame.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 03:30:15 AM by Ran Yakumo »

Pesco

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #86 on: December 17, 2011, 08:13:44 AM »
Communication? Learn to mindread :V

Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2011, 08:58:53 AM »
Next version: Satori cannot use chat. Lrn2ThirdEye. :V

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #88 on: December 17, 2011, 09:03:11 AM »
I don't particulary have any complaints for 977 except the scaling since I usually buy str on int, so it's something I just have to get used to (Also, Merlin d doesn't kill creeps in one hit anymore early ;.; ). It doesn't help I seem to be suffering constant spikes everytime I play 977 with this new connection.

Also, yeah, communication is one of our biggest problem but I don't think that's something that's going to be fixed anytime soon (Especially for me since I don't speak on TS) as we just play DotS for fun-ish-ness and not really seriously.

trancehime

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Re: [WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III
« Reply #89 on: December 17, 2011, 03:06:05 PM »
Communication? Learn to mindread :V

Speaking of this:

Yeah, I'll say it right now - I'll be an asshole and not really bother using in-game chat if 75%> of the team including myself (4 out of 5 people or 3 out of 4 people) use TeamSpeak already - so if you're one of those people who land in to those situations, I suggest using the damn thing. I only use in-game chat if I have to, because typing really loving fucks up my control and I end up standing in lane like a derp auto-attacking. It's not cool.

We just have this weird code of honor, hence the bans, and hence the complaints. My complaint is that murasa is getting nerfed incessantly, and in addition those nerfs aren't really doing anything about the reason she's percieved as OP over there anyway.

I think one thing I've noticed here is people here seemed to enjoy treating Murasa a lot like how you'd treat Pudge - a fat monstrosity who hooks people and then beats them up solo in the middle of dark woods. They used the boat to help them get around to places where they could park their ass and hook like a madman. Obviously, with the recent changes made to Murasa, you can't do that as effectively anymore, hence most of the raging. That's how I see it, anyway.

Quote
That's my opinion though. I honestly think we should strt adapting, guys. Despite being fully aware of DotS being an international game by now, the DotS devs are tailoring it to one community: theirs. I can't hold that against them, but if we just keep going expecting them to make changes based on what we want, we're just going to rage. Things are stupid on a lot of fronts, yeah, but w/e.

My main complaint with 0.977 is because it's now 5v5 there's more emphasis on NOT BEING DUMB.

...Which is basically a MOBA-universal-level complaint anyway. Technically speaking I don't have many problems with it other than the fact it is now a disgusting LoL-clone with all the scaling and stuff; and the fact I have to get used to like a bazillion new shops. That shit isn't doing me any favors.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 03:15:13 PM by TranceHime »

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