Author Topic: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)  (Read 25058 times)

Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2011, 04:37:30 AM »
And here I go again.

-Regarding Yuyuko, in most cases (even where she isn't the final boss), she has these eminent "end of all hope" type stage themes. Not so much her boss themes as a whole, but the stage themes really stick out to me. The question I throw here is: Is she among the higher tier in Gensokyo as far as the resident strengths are concerned, or does the anti-climatism sort of try to play mind games with you (or is it something else entirely)? I ask because Yuyuko's stage theme in PCB is a huge tension builder (as is her stage in Touhouvania), but when you finally get to her, that tension sorta... dies (this is my opinion anyways).

To start off, power level discussions aren't really done here because they apparently tend to devolve too quickly.

Despite that, I think Yuyuko is generally considered to be on the higher tier of strength in Gensokyo. However, it's also prudent to consider that in PCB you're rushing to stop the awakening of a tree that's going to draw people to it for the sole purpose of draining their life. If that doesn't warrant dramatic music, I don't know what does. See Subterranean Animism's final stage for a similar situation. Also, Border of Life is usually considered to be one of the most dramatic and climactic final boss themes in the series, so most people probably wouldn't agree with that opinion.

Finally, again, Touhouvania is not canon, so don't consider anything that goes on in there when trying to understand the Touhou universe.

-Another question regarding Yuyuko, though I throw Youmu into this because of the relevance. It states that Yuyuko and Youmu have been together for some time, yet how on earth did Youmu get so much respect for Yuyuko when the former is clearly more precise and fierce than the latter? And when? Furthermore, how does Youmu NOT know that Yuyuko is a ghost and NOT freak out at the same time? Either a canon or fanon theory will suffice here.

Yuyuko is clearly much, much wiser than she lets on, and she tends to use her airheaded, carefree attitude to hide that vast insight. She is shown to be calm, patient, wise, and still quite powerful, so it makes sense that the brash, young Youmu would have such respect for her. Add onto that that Youmu's father, Youki, served Yuyuko before she did, and she probably inherited the mindset of respect from him. Beyond that is merely conjecture as to what specific incidents caused all this, as it's not stated in the games.

Further, Youmu knows perfectly well that Yuyuko is a ghost. Her fear of ghosts is canonically stated (somewhere, I don't quite remember where) to only apply to the bedsheets-and-whooooos kind of ghosts, which the ones in Gensokyo clearly are not.

-Has there ever been any sort of real evil in Gensokyo, other than the farce mischief everyone displays? The fanon in Touhouvania implies that Yukari is aiming to cause chaos of some degree (whether out of her own personality or something else is unknown to me), just by how she treats Reimu like a stringed puppet and a toy of some sort. I'm not 100% positive, but it looks like Yukari's merely keeping up a mask until her REAL plan is able to be hatched.

But I digress. Is there any sort of evil in Gensokyo (even in precursor events - one that could possibly resurface)? Or is Gensokyo merely a world where ZUN and his followers can materialize any sort of conflict with the set template of characters? Because if the latter is true, I'm thinking of a fanon mix with my own original fiction universe (in a healthy manner of course - but that's only if such a move would make sense).

Again, there is no real "good" or "evil" in Gensokyo. The closest that anyone has come to actual evil have been the Saigyou Ayakashi, Utsuho's bout of genocidal insanity in SA, Medicine in general, and possibly Tenshi, depending on your opinion. Also again, Touhouvania is not canon and the characters interactions in that should not be considered when making sense of the main Touhou canon. Yukari has only been somewhat involved in one plot, maybe two if you want to count Immaterial and Missing Power, and in most others she has been one of the people involved in solving the incidents and putting things back in order.

In the end, I suppose your latter opinion would work. Interactions between characters are, in the end, up to the individual to analyze the canon provided and form their own conclusions.

-Regarding Sakuya (and I express a thousand apologies to all Sakuya fans for the use of this nickname, and eagerly await any knifing that may result), WHY on earth is the name Pad-chou so forbidden? Really, if all women in Gensokyo were judged by breasts, then clearly Yukari'd win over anyone else. But since each one has their own appeal, I find the use of Pad-chou to be rather... um.... what's the word I'm looking for.... irrational and really, what's the point of getting worked up over Sakuya padding her chest?

Despite the fact that this is a purely fanon thing, as both a strong fan of Sakuya and as someone who roleplays as Sakuya in one of the Touhou roleplaying venues around the internet, I can give my personal explanation anyway.

Sakuya is an extremely dignified and self-confident woman. She values her image and knows that it reflects upon how people see the Scarlet Devil Mansion as a whole, as she is the resident who interacts with the other people of Gensokyo the most. Therefore, with this important position as a sort of "SDM PR," she would be extremely offended by any suggestion that she would lack self-confidence enough to pad her breasts. Such a claim doesn't only insult her integrity, but the integrity of the Scarlet Devil Mansion as a whole, in that regard. Clearly she would be very upset by something like that.

-This is a BIG question regarding Suika. In a prior post, it was mentioned Suika wanted her Oni Brothers to come out. Now something hit me hard there. BROTHERS?! I THOUGHT TOUHOU HAD AN ALL-FEMALE CAST! I THOUGHT THIS WAS SOME SORT OF MALE-CREATED FEMALE SUPREMACIST EMPIRE!

.... Wise cracks aside, I thought up until now that Touhou's universe was all female, so I had originally thought my own fiction universe would mesh well due to the dominance in male characters (the two inequalities balancing each other out). But now Touhou has men?!

Did ZUN add those guys due to pressure from his masculine male fans, or was it something else that pushed him to create the Gensokyan males?

I used "bros" as a general term for Suika's other oni friends.

The main cast of Touhou is female aside from a couple of exceptions, namely Rinnosuke and Unzan. However, this does not mean that the entire population of Gensokyo is female. Indeed, there has been complete gender equality among the nameless citizens of Gensokyo in the various official mangas, and men are known to be just as present as women. Among the main cast, however, it is 99% female.

ZUN doesn't care what his fans think of his work. He's stated that even if all of his fans stopped playing Touhou and the series was entirely abandoned, he would still make the games. The addition of male characters was not to please fans, but just a decision he made for a couple of characters.

I'm dealing with a lot right now, so not quite as much of a textwall this time, but there you go.
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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2011, 07:23:05 AM »
Awesome job Squid. Thanks for all the info. Though other newbies will be spending at least 3-5 minutes (maybe longer) reading this, I have already read all this.

And FYI, the reason I brought Fanon into this is because the stories it portrays are quite powerful in their own right, so before knowing they weren't exactly canon lore in Gensokyo, I had a powerful suggestion of thought that they either A)Were a separate path of things from the Danmaku games, or B)Were powerful enough to at least be a story in their own right, in the case that the Danmaku games lacked one.

Fan storytelling of Touhou has shown me that ZUN may not really put too much thought into the stories, but his fans pick up on that and elaborate further.

And I apologize about my mention of the power level thing. I just really saw a lot of powerful vibes coming from any of her stage themes, so I had to get that issue off my chest as to why only HER themes would carry that kind of tension building rhythm and melody.
Wen..... You little..... Not only have you destroyed my integrity, you've had Chen entice me into A Falsetto of Feline Curiosity. Then your little stunt eventually draws Youmu's Fifty Destructive Temptations. After which Momiji attempts to arrange a group of Heavenly Inspired Ceremonies. Then I get killed by a jealous Aya, only to have to suffer from Komachi's Shadow of Slothful Roses.

And now this! Shikieki declared my judgement to be the path of Alice's Thirty Nine Nostalgic Crossroads!

Long story short: You've successfully converted me to Touhouism, you blasted piece of Goetic work.

Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2011, 08:10:07 AM »
Further, Youmu knows perfectly well that Yuyuko is a ghost. Her fear of ghosts is canonically stated (somewhere, I don't quite remember where) to only apply to the bedsheets-and-whooooos kind of ghosts, which the ones in Gensokyo clearly are not.

Youmu's fear of ghosts is elaborated in Strange and Bright Nature Deity. You get to know what sort of scary things she is afraid of.
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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2011, 07:43:44 PM »
Fan storytelling of Touhou has shown me that ZUN may not really put too much thought into the stories, but his fans pick up on that and elaborate further.
This is completely untrue. Anyone who claims that ZUN doesn't put much thought into his stories have likely only read the game dialogues, and this much I'd say to be true for a majority of fiction writers in the western fanbase. Even the game's handbooks are enough to flesh out their stories quite expansively, but that's still not even counting all the other printed works. The canonical lore in Touhou is fairly immense for a series that explains so little during the actual games.

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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2011, 01:19:32 AM »
This is completely untrue. Anyone who claims that ZUN doesn't put much thought into his stories have likely only read the game dialogues, and this much I'd say to be true for a majority of fiction writers in the western fanbase. Even the game's handbooks are enough to flesh out their stories quite expansively, but that's still not even counting all the other printed works. The canonical lore in Touhou is fairly immense for a series that explains so little during the actual games.

*sigh* I guess it's time to break out my signature phrase:

HOW THE HELL WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT?!
Wen..... You little..... Not only have you destroyed my integrity, you've had Chen entice me into A Falsetto of Feline Curiosity. Then your little stunt eventually draws Youmu's Fifty Destructive Temptations. After which Momiji attempts to arrange a group of Heavenly Inspired Ceremonies. Then I get killed by a jealous Aya, only to have to suffer from Komachi's Shadow of Slothful Roses.

And now this! Shikieki declared my judgement to be the path of Alice's Thirty Nine Nostalgic Crossroads!

Long story short: You've successfully converted me to Touhouism, you blasted piece of Goetic work.

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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2011, 01:26:27 AM »
Whoa, calm down bro. We understand completely that you're new to this, so we're explaining all of this to you. We're not trying to be insulting ^_^

So yeah, supplementary works basically serve to flesh out what ZUN couldn't cram into the games.


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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2011, 01:43:07 AM »
Moumantai, cujo. No one's trying to bring you down over an entirely justified lack of Touhou knowledge. I even mentioned in a previous post that understanding a good deal of Touhou's tidbits comes with time. "Live and learn" at this point, and before you know it you'll find yourself answering another newcomer's questions like a pro.
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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2011, 02:09:43 AM »
*sigh* I guess it's time to break out my signature phrase:

HOW THE HELL WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT?!
Uh, you weren't. That was kind of the point of, y'know , telling you.

???????????

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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2011, 02:32:46 AM »
Geez, I feel so humiliated.

Moumantai

Care to explain what this means for one who doth not speaketh Japanese?

Whoa, calm down bro. We understand completely that you're new to this, so we're explaining all of this to you. We're not trying to be insulting ^_^

So yeah, supplementary works basically serve to flesh out what ZUN couldn't cram into the games.

I'm aware. I actually overplayed the caps. It was meant to be an exaggeration.

Uh, you weren't. That was kind of the point of, y'know , telling you.

???????????

I feel like an idiot.
Wen..... You little..... Not only have you destroyed my integrity, you've had Chen entice me into A Falsetto of Feline Curiosity. Then your little stunt eventually draws Youmu's Fifty Destructive Temptations. After which Momiji attempts to arrange a group of Heavenly Inspired Ceremonies. Then I get killed by a jealous Aya, only to have to suffer from Komachi's Shadow of Slothful Roses.

And now this! Shikieki declared my judgement to be the path of Alice's Thirty Nine Nostalgic Crossroads!

Long story short: You've successfully converted me to Touhouism, you blasted piece of Goetic work.

ふねん1

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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2011, 03:32:09 AM »
Care to explain what this means for one who doth not speaketh Japanese?
That's actually of Cantonese origin, and it can roughly translate to "take it easy" or some equivalent. Many Westerners will recognize that phrase from Digimon Tamers (specifically, it's Terriermon's catchphrase).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 03:44:04 AM by ふねん1 »
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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2011, 05:36:16 AM »
That's actually of Cantonese origin, and it can roughly translate to "take it easy" or some equivalent. Many Westerners will recognize that phrase from Digimon Tamers (specifically, it's Terriermon's catchphrase).

Bad luck I'm afraid; never seen that series.
Wen..... You little..... Not only have you destroyed my integrity, you've had Chen entice me into A Falsetto of Feline Curiosity. Then your little stunt eventually draws Youmu's Fifty Destructive Temptations. After which Momiji attempts to arrange a group of Heavenly Inspired Ceremonies. Then I get killed by a jealous Aya, only to have to suffer from Komachi's Shadow of Slothful Roses.

And now this! Shikieki declared my judgement to be the path of Alice's Thirty Nine Nostalgic Crossroads!

Long story short: You've successfully converted me to Touhouism, you blasted piece of Goetic work.

Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2011, 12:17:39 PM »
In regards to the whole "people causing trouble being treated as buddies" thing, Perfect Memento in Strict Sense is quite informative.
Essentially incidents are encouraged as a means of preventing decline in youkai power, and the new spellcard rules resolves conflict via contest instead of combat. Even if a youkai defeats a human in one of these duels, they are not allowed to kill them.
Youkai also like to make themselves seem more threatening than they really are for prides sake.

Regarding Youmu's respect for Yuyuko, the latter manages the netherworld pretty much by herself (as far as we know), which is implied to be larger than Gensokyo, and certainly larger than heaven. She was chosen by the Yama (Enma?) as the person best suited for the job. She's best buds with the closest thing Gensokyo has to an administrator, and often knows exactly whats going on before practically anyone else (something the fighting games in particular demonstrate). Plus, Youmu is both one of the most childish/inexperienced and formal characters in the series. So, plenty of reasons there.



By the way, I have a question of my own. Can everyone in Gensokyo fly? If you assume anyone with magic can fly (youkai, faries, gods and the like) you're only really left with Reimu and Sakuya in terms of people who have been shown to be able to fly in canon (as far as I am aware), and Reimu's ability is just that, the ability to fly. So that just leaves Sakuya, who lives in a mansion of magicians and can bend space. (Oh, almost forgot- also, Reimu needed a turtle to fly in PC-98, although I'm not sure that's canon)
The reason I ask is because of one of Kogasa's lines from UFO, where she expresses surprise that a human can fly.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 07:23:26 AM by haoreos2 »

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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2011, 01:50:51 PM »
Practically every major character in Touhou can fly. Reimu's ability is often stated as flight, though I tend to also interpret this as the ability to "float", as in "float away from reality" (what's stated she does during cards like Fantasy Heaven that make her invincible) to distinguish it a bit more from everyone else.
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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #73 on: October 24, 2011, 02:00:32 PM »
As far as I can tell, not everyone can fly in Gensokyo. I think all of the named Touhou characters can fly. Most of the humans
in the human village cannot fly, though I assume some can, since some might know magic.
A lot of the heroic human characters know magic. Marisa and Byakuren are more obvious. The less obvious ones, Youmu and
Sakuya also know magic. It was even said Youmu is an expert magic user.

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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #74 on: October 24, 2011, 02:16:17 PM »
That's what I meant when I said "major character", namely those involved in the danmaku battles.
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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2011, 03:23:04 PM »
By the way, I have a question of my own. Can anyone in Gensokyo fly? If you assume anyone with magic can fly (youkai, faries, gods and the like) you're only really left with Reimu and Sakuya in terms of people who have been shown to be able to fly in canon (as far as I am aware), and Reimu's ability is just that, the ability to fly. So that just leaves Sakuya, who lives in a mansion of magicians and can bend space. (Oh, almost forgot- also, Reimu needed a turtle to fly in PC-98, although I'm not sure that's canon)
The reason I ask is because of one of Kogasa's lines from UFO, where she expresses surprise that a human can fly.

...um?

Every main character from the games can fly. There's not really an explanation given for this, but that's how it is. I would assume that anyone who's not a named character (and possibly Rinnosuke) wouldn't be able to fly. I've always interpreted Reimu's ability to fly as meaning "hey I can do it myself now, I don't need Genji anymore." Her other ability is to be able to eat sweets and not get fat, so take that how you will.
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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2011, 12:56:57 AM »
Might be bringing back up a stale topic, but as for evil, Saigyouji tree notwithstanding, no character from Touhou is truly evil. On the other hand, there are definitely characters that are nicer/friendlier than others, as well as characters that have more decency than others.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 01:07:39 AM by De La Witch »

Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2011, 01:59:13 AM »
I also interpret Reimu's ability to fly as just that, she can fly, but I don't really think an ability determines everything
a character can do. So, even if that is Reimu's ability, she can do other fancy stuff like bend space, teleport, go into
a separate dimension, summon gods, etc. I think this is true for several Touhou characters, like Yuyuko or Remilia,
who might as well not have an ability.

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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2011, 05:30:35 AM »
I also interpret Reimu's ability to fly as just that, she can fly,
I believe canon shows that her ability to fly can be just as broken as other Touhou powers. In different sources it's also translated as floating or weightlessness. Floating above limitations, like human limits and the limits of reality, or being unaffected by weight - Not just gravity, but even the weight of stress and threats.
Imo, her flying is like 'ascension' more than anything else.

Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #79 on: October 25, 2011, 07:02:57 AM »
I just keep them separate, since I don't believe it is mentioned anywhere that such is the case. So, while Reimu
could bend space, as seen in Fantasy Seal -Blink-, and go to another dimension, as seen in Fantasy Heaven,
I do not think that is related to her ability. Similar to how she is able to summon gods, that has nothing to do
with the ability to fly.
The same is true with say Youmu, who is an excellent spell caster, but this has nothing to do with her ability of
swordsmanship. This is just something else that Youmu can do.
But I guess a better example may be Sakuya, who's ability is time manipulation. She also can makes knives
appear from thin air. Yet, it is mentioned in PMiSS that this has nothing to do with her stopping time. So, I
would assume that this means she can summon knives with magic.

Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2011, 07:34:06 AM »
Unassuming Squid: Yes, I am aware the major characters can fly. My question was more concerned with everyone else, such as the humans in the village- whether they are groundbound, or simply everyone can fly, no exceptions. (In the question I said anyone, rather than everyone, which was probably a bad choice of words)

Starxsword and KrackoCloud: Oh, certainly. I'm not saying thats all Reimu can do or that it is a particularly weak power; simply that it in the context of my question, it explains her ability to fly if it isnt a universal skill in the series.

Perhaps a better phrasing would be:
Is flight a universal trait in Gensokyo, or simply one that every character in the games has access to (via their nature, powers, or otherwise)?

(Personally I'm assuming the latter, unless someone has an example from canon that proves the former)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 07:39:39 AM by haoreos2 »

Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2011, 08:46:45 AM »
I think everyone answered you the same way. No, not everyone can fly.

Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2011, 09:48:44 AM »
Mmm, I was just wondering if someone had evidence from ZUN supporting it. Closest thing I can find is Kogasa's surprise, which implies normal humans can't, or Flan's PMiSS article ("I doubt she can fly with those wings", "Don't worry, everyone is able to fly even without wings") which depends on if Akyuu was including humans in her generalisation.

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Re: Touhou Newbie's Big Curiosity - Enmity In Gensokyo (Or Lack Thereof)
« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2011, 09:56:41 AM »
The way I see it, the normal people with no major magic can't fly.
But folks like Marisa, who is a Magician in name, and a Magician-To-Be in the way Magicians work in Gensokyo, are able to fly due to having discovered how to apply it.

See, my idea of it is that Reimu's version of Flight is a different, special one, like it was said to be more like Ascension earlier.
Because her power's description stats that she's able to "Float". And her bigger spellcards, like Fantasy Heaven, state that she "Floats away from the physical world for a short time".
So my reasoning is that her power is indeed Flight, but an exceptionally special version, an Ace Custom if you will.
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