Author Topic: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)/ Co-op mode in original touhou  (Read 20108 times)

I've literally never seen 2p touhou mode beside fighting game and pofv
What do you guys think about two player mode? And is it better playing coop online, through net or offline by asking your friend come to your house and play one computer?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 09:51:59 AM by Excelsus »

Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2011, 08:27:21 AM »
2p touhou?
Not fighting/pofv?
I'm sorry, but I honestly have no idea what you're talking about...

Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2011, 09:06:17 AM »
I don't think that a cooperative mode would be any good. The games aren't that difficult to warrant it. So, the only two-player danmaku games will be the Phantasmagorias.

Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2011, 09:51:34 AM »
It's not good? why is the reason for that you can play each other right in cooperation mode?

Slightly confused still... The way you're saying it, you think there already is coop mode in the regular touhou games?
Because if that's the case there's not.
And if you think there should be, well what Dr.Strafe said.

Perhaps I am such a stickler for single-player games, which is why I said that about co-op. The Touhou danmaku games are rather short, so there really isn't a need for a second player. Many of the attacks within the game rely on targeting the player, and such attacks could get "confused" when having to aim for two players instead. I'd prefer to keep the games as they are, with each scenario being that character's take on the story. Throwing in a second player would just muddle the experience and/or dialogue.

Conversely, Imperishable Night would have been interesting if it had a co-op mode. This is because the game was built around the team structure already.

I believe that when players would like to play a danmaku game together, it would be more exciting in a competitive environment. Thus, we have the Phantasmagoria games. These two games are focused on multiplayer at the very core.

Slightly confused still... The way you're saying it, you think there already is coop mode in the regular touhou games?
Because if that's the case there's not.
And if you think there should be, well what Dr.Strafe said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oavlt_Z5KdQ&feature=related

No what i mean would you mind if there is touhou game with mode like the above video!

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I don't think player aiming projectiles would be a problem - just have some go for one and others go to the other. I'm also not sure about having problems with two players going through P1's storyline...usually the story is all the same, the second character just tags along with the first one and follows the latter's progression (Sonic 2/3&K, Fatal Fury, Shock Troopers), and/or there is an unusual twist (eg. P1 vs. P2 fight in Fatal Fury and Streets of Rage after co-oping the game).

However, while gameplay-wise I don't have issues with cooperative Touhou I'd prefer that if it's an option that the game be designed with that in mind, rather than just a two-player version of the single-player game. Also, Touhou is quite easy IMO versus most STGs, so it isn't too justified to have a MP bit.

I prefer cooperative danmaku, myself - we have other game genres for competition, and if there is anything for competition here it's usually high scores and special runs.

Quote
Conversely, Imperishable Night would have been interesting if it had a co-op mode. This is because the game was built around the team structure already.
Well, tag-teaming anyways, but IN would best fit a cooperative MP setting with both players as solo, most likely.
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There aren't any particular technical hurdles to a Touhou co-op mode that I can see.  However, I'm not sure how it'd add anything to the average Touhou shoot-em-up (since Touhou is primarily focused on dodging, which is more of a single-person individual experience) nor am I sure how it'd NOT detract anything from the focus on dodging, either.

For example, a lot of Touhou at the higher difficulties is carefully gauging your own hit box so you can squeeze in between the bullets.  In many cases on Lunatic difficulty, the difference between life and death boils down to a few pixels.

Now, in a two-player situation where both characters are near each other, can you imagine how HARD it'd be for the player to calculate where the pixels of these hit boxes lie when there's a second player character overlapping on top of him or her?

Going back to the "What does it actually add?" issue, the nature of Touhou is such that in a two-player mode, most players will be too focused on their own character's dodging and shooting to pay attention to what the other guy is doing. In this case, you almost might as well be playing alone instead, the one exception being noticing that your pal is about to die and using your own bomb to save her. While awesome if you manage to pull it off, for the most part that'd be... well, the only thing a two-player co-op would really add, I think.

Not that I wouldn't mind such a feature anyways, if only because it'd look pretty darn cool.  It's just not particularly necessary. It's not like, say, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, where cramming four people onto the screen where they can do all sorts of wacky hijinks to each other such as throwing each other around or stealing each other's power-ups leads to ridiculous amounts of absolute HILARITY.  When it comes to Touhou, the amount of ways you'd be able to interact with your partner are kinda minimal.

Again, there aren't any technical issues so it's still possible. And there are lots of games where two-player co-op ended up making no sense (like say, Battletoads) yet two-player ended up being awesome to play anyway (...at least for those who are masochistic.  Anyone who's ever tried the ridiculously impossible craziness that was two-player Battletoads knows what I'm talking about.  It's a game totally not designed for two-players and adding two-players to it makes a ridiculously difficult game even MORE ridiculously difficult, and yet many of my fondest co-op memories with my brother come from overcoming that difficulty hurdle in that game).  ....but yea, it's just not particularly er... game-changing, I suppose is the way to put it? Necessary?  Additive?  Er, yea.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 05:12:06 PM by Tiamat »

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Oh Battletoads, i remember playing it coop at a friends house allot, i don't think we ever made it past the hoverbike part.  ~nostalgia~

But yea anyways while coop Touhou sound kinda cool i think it would need to be designed with coop in mind for it to work well.

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Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)/ Co-op mode in original touhou
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2011, 06:41:44 PM »
I think co-op might be possible with Touhou, but it'll require some changes.

For those saying it's too easy, A LOT of games just increase difficulty when a second player comes in.

I think the biggest problem is when characters overlap. In netplay I can see it work by making your character sprite brighter than theirs, but in local netplay it may seem complicated with two sprites overlapping which may confuse players trying to figure out which player they are.

Other than that, I think it's totally possible this way.

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Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)/ Co-op mode in original touhou
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2011, 06:43:07 PM »
One issue with netplay is going to be the latency. This may make dodging bullet patterns extremely difficult, and coordination between the 2+ clients may be limited by this.

This is one reason why Jamestown, an indie STG on Steam that supports up to 4 players, does not have a netplay option.
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Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)/ Co-op mode in original touhou
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2011, 06:51:31 PM »
One issue with netplay is going to be the latency. This may make dodging bullet patterns extremely difficult, and coordination between the 2+ clients may be limited by this.

This is one reason why Jamestown, an indie STG on Steam that supports up to 4 players, does not have a netplay option.

well here's one option. You don't get lag, but the player you see will show some lag based on the internet connection, but as mentioned before, since he's sprite will be dimmed out it wouldn't matter. It's all about how you dodge and survive.

I forgot which games had this but I remember co-op online games did this.

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Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)/ Co-op mode in original touhou
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2011, 09:10:31 PM »
A thing about touhou is, that ZUN adds different mechanics in each game. If he would include 2-player-mode, he would build the game around it, similar to Trance-Mode in Ten Desires. It could go Ikaruga style, couldn't it, probably with a twist? In single player, the player can switch between, let's say Youkai and Human, Imperishable Night Style, which will effect which bullets can hit them and which they can absorb. In two player, one player takes the human and one player takes the youkai and they have to move in front of their partner, to shield him from bullets, he can't deal with himself.

There are also many other possibilities to implement 2-player, I'm sure.
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Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)/ Co-op mode in original touhou
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2011, 10:10:18 PM »
Ugh. As if there weren't already far too many 2-player games out there already.
I'd rather not be reminded about my lack of friends thank you very much.
Not to mention the fact that co-op is horrible even if you have people to play with. In touhou it'd probably be even worse.

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Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)/ Co-op mode in original touhou
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2011, 10:29:21 PM »
Guys there is absolutely nothing negative that could arise from having a 2P Touhou game. At all.
Infact, we'd have more giggles, rainbows, and more funs if we could play simultaneously with a friend while dodging spellcards and shit.

:I

Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)/ Co-op mode in original touhou
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2011, 10:48:26 PM »
IMO there's nothing positive that would arise from it.

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Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)/ Co-op mode in original touhou
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2011, 10:55:15 PM »
If done the right way, I'm sure it could be fun. Having the other player sprites dimmed is a must. If that doesn't happen, I could see more frustration coming out of it, especially if a veteran is playing with a rookie that believes riding on top of the experienced player will keep him or her safe.

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Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)/ Co-op mode in original touhou
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2011, 11:42:01 PM »
IMO there's nothing positive that would arise from it.
Or you can, you know... still play 1P if you want n stuff.  :derp:

If done the right way, I'm sure it could be fun. Having the other player sprites dimmed is a must. If that doesn't happen, I could see more frustration coming out of it, especially if a veteran is playing with a rookie that believes riding on top of the experienced player will keep him or her safe.

This made me laugh. :3

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Re: 2 player mode?(not pofv and fighting game)/ Co-op mode in original touhou
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2011, 12:54:11 PM »
The general gameplay mechanics of co-op in shoot-em-ups have been worked out a long time ago. I just recently played DoDonPachi DaiOuJou in 2-player mode with a friend, and it was a blast.
(It was actually a successful 1-ALL; still working on that regular single-player 1-ALL, though.)

But like others here have said, the game needs to be more difficult overall if two players are to participate. Having two players generally makes the game easier because they can shoot more enemies at the same time, and any aimed shots would have to be balanced between targets (meaning that the enemy AI would also have to be upgraded). My friend and I would often split duties, with one of us destroying popcorn enemies and the other attacking harder targets. In the final stage, we stayed against opposite sides of the screen so that those flying turrets couldn't shoot their streams of aimed bullets from both sides at the same time. Doing this made the game MUCH easier.

We didn't really encounter the problem of overlapping players at all, really, probably because both of us had common sense to stay away from each other. I think if a veteran had to play with a rookie, both of them would quickly realize that it's easier to read bullets, shoot enemies and survive when separated from each other.
Also, in Touhou, there's a little more room for horizontal movement, so that problem wouldn't be as much of an issue.

A problem that I do think might be a major issue is the scoring in Touhou, particularly the Spell Card bonuses. Obviously, there can't be an individual Spell Card bonus for each player, because if one player bombs (thus clearing the bullets in the play area), the other player would have an unfair advantage in maintaining the Spell Card bonus because there would be no bullets that needed to be dodged. The opposite situation, where the Spell Card bonus is dependent on the performance of both players, is also highly undesirable. Should the players be of different skill levels, a less-skilled player could easily destroy the bonus for the veteran by bombing or getting hit. The only way to make a balanced bonus system for each player is to change the bombs so that they don't cancel bullets, while also making the user completely intangible. Unfortunately, this alters the standard mechanics of bombing present in Touhou and pretty much every other shoot-em-up.

Regardless of all that, I still think co-op in Touhou might be an interesting and fun idea.

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