Author Topic: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]  (Read 8120 times)

Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« on: March 21, 2011, 09:00:28 PM »
I certainly hope this is the right place to ask for help... I'm working on a Metal Gear Solid style Touhou fangame, and right now I'm in a desperate need for more crew.

About the project
-I think originally the purpose of this whole affair was to just have an excuse to tell a MGS-inspired story, but then it turned out really fun to think of ways to combine stealth and danmaku. So now we are taking several gameplay elements and atmosphere from the Metal Gear series, and characters, some gameplay elements and scenario from Touhou. Maybe this should be called "Tactical Curtain Fire Action"?

What we need
-As of now, things are going quite well. Except for one specific thing. Our artists have no problems drawing character portraits and animating simple cutscenes, but graphics to be used during gameplay turned out to be problematic. If you think you could be of any help, please contact us.

tl;dr Some idiot is actually making Metal Gear Touhou and needs a pixel artist immediately.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 09:12:29 PM by Sero »

Blargel

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Artists required!]
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2011, 11:21:39 PM »
Unfortunately you won't be finding many artists around here. Also, most artists wouldn't want to participate in something that has barely even started.
I suggest that you get part of the game done with placeholder graphics (steal from Walfas or something) and when the base of the game engine is done, show it off and request art help. You can probably ask for help in the art section instead of game creation section too if you strictly only need art.
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Re: Touhou x MGS [Artists required!]
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2011, 11:33:50 PM »
Well, I've worked with placeholder graphics for a while, and have a small internal beta which is already somewhat fun to play. I'm especially proud of the AI, but I'm growing kinda tired of looking at this.
But oh well, I guess I'll try to ask from the art section soon.

EDIT. Some early video footage. Definitely needs some polishing, but I think this can be used as a base to build the rest of the game on.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 11:48:22 PM by Sero »

Blargel

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Artists required!]
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 06:45:38 PM »
That actually looks pretty interesting. Good luck on the production of it. That video makes it look like it's impossible to get out of the alert phase once you trigger it so it definitely needs some working on, but the concept works surprisingly well.
<WorkingKeine> when i get home i just go to the ps3 and beat people up in blazblue with a loli
<Azure> Keine: Danmakufu helper by day, violent loli by night.

Mimachiro

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Artists required!]
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 09:57:06 PM »
Wow, I wish I had the graphic skills to help, but the gameplay has a lot of potential. Good luck working out the graphics part.

"I don't have anything against you, but I hope you're ready to die a dog's death!
Oh, don't worry, that cat will carry off your body, so you'll be able to live in our place!"

Re: Touhou x MGS [Artists required!]
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2011, 09:11:29 PM »
The project was pretty much on a hiatus during summer, but I was recently struck by inspiration to continue developing this. So as of now, this is far from dying.

And hey, a friend of mine even came up with a name for this madness: 東方紅魔檻 ~ Scarlet Gear (read the kanji as "touhoukoumakan") (might be temporary, but it's the best of the few we managed to think of.)

And our team still needs some reinforcements, this time any kind of help is appreciated. Be it level design, music, storywriting... if you think you could do anything and feel you'd like to be a part of this, we're ready to see what you're made of!

Here's some quite fresh footage for those who are interested in seeing some. Yes we're using Patchcon sprites as placeholders for now, since they wipe floors with any placeholders I could come up with, but we seriously need to get rid of those soon. Which means we're still low on pixel artists. Though everything with the exception of fairies/dolls and Marisa is tailor made for this project, we only lack character sprites. Please don't mind the language clusterfuck on the video, that's something I've had no reason to polish at all so far.

Beef Owl

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2011, 09:32:20 PM »
You know, what kind of style are you hoping for? If it's nothing to complex (i.e. NES Metal Gear style graphics) I could probably help with sprites, but beyond 8-bit my spriting skills are severely limited. It sounds interesting; I can't make a full commitment due to my limited internet access, but I can try to lend a hand, I've been itching to do something productive :V


EDIT: For kicks I decided to try this, spent like 5 minutes on it, could be better, but it gets the idea across of what I meant; it's edited off of Snake from MG2.


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/mgtouhousample.png/
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 10:12:49 PM by Beef Owl »

Mеа

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2011, 10:31:28 PM »
EDIT: For kicks I decided to try this, spent like 5 minutes on it, could be better, but it gets the idea across of what I meant; it's edited off of Snake from MG2.


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/mgtouhousample.png/

That's an incredibly manly looking Marisa you've made there.
Have any of you seen this pic before?

The engine seems to be working great, but I feel it's missing a kind of Touhou flair to it. It might also have something to do with the fact that MGS is about not getting caught, and the Touhou danmaku aspect comes into play when you are caught. To experience the Touhou part of the gameplay, you have to go against the general goal of the game, which is stealth.
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Beef Owl

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2011, 11:08:02 PM »
That's an incredibly manly looking Marisa you've made there.



Edited off of Snake from MG2.


Besides, it seems accurate to me :V

Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2011, 01:24:07 PM »
The engine seems to be working great, but I feel it's missing a kind of Touhou flair to it. It might also have something to do with the fact that MGS is about not getting caught, and the Touhou danmaku aspect comes into play when you are caught. To experience the Touhou part of the gameplay, you have to go against the general goal of the game, which is stealth.
I can see where you're coming from, and that's a problem I've been struggling to solve for a while.

For example, in some of my earlier versions I emphasized the MGS-style gameplay, and gave the player acceleration without thinking about it very much; I just thought that it was more "realistic" than insta-max-speed and would let players to perform pixel-perfect movement easier without using a focus-mode. But almost everyone who tested it complained about the player-character moving too slowly, even though it was quite fast. Thus I removed the acceleration, and everyone seemed to be fine with dodging again. (Funny how you can become almost oblivious to some touches on the gameplay when you get too used to them ^^)

And when you think about it, danmaku and stealth aren't fundamentally that different from each other: You have to avoid something harmful, in danmaku this is enemy bullets, and in stealth this is enemies' fields of vision. I believe that by clever level design you can make avoiding being seen as hectic as avoiding being blasted away by gazillions balls of light.

Of course, I can think of a few drastic differences. First, in shmups you don't usually need to worry about moving forward; the game does it for you, you just focus on dodging and blasting stuff. And since you have some control over your advancing in stealth games, this allows for some item hunting, backtracking and puzzles where you have to figure out what to do (This was most prominent in the MSX Metal Gear titles). And another huge difference is that - as I said - in shmups you "focus on dodging and blasting stuff." It's true that in most stealth games it's more rewarding the less enemies you directly harm.

As of now, I'm planning to including those adventure game type elements from the old-school Metal Gears in this game, since I actually found them enjoyable.

But as you said, "the Touhou danmaku aspect comes into play when you are caught". I think that's something worth putting some effort into: making the alert phases fun to play off. That means that they should be more rewarding to fight off than just hide. Actually I think that in MGS3, fighting the enemies was way more effective than trying to run away and hide, but that actually irritated me since I don't consider MGS a "shooting game" (more like a "puzzle). ^^ But in this game it makes sense to encourage the player to use action when it seems necessary. Though I don't want the player to intentionally trigger alarms, so I need to find a good balance. (Okay, now I'm starting to sound too elitistic... ^^' I don't really mind if other people play games differently than I do, but I want certain games to encourage certain type of gameplay.)

And we must not forget about boss fights, since they're an important part of both series. I believe this is the area where mixing MGS with a danmaku shooter will provide the most interesting results.

In MG, these have always had the most action in the games, and they're sometimes the only places where you actually have to resort to lethal force (Has it been possible from MGS2 onwards to complete a game without killing a single human being outside cutscenes?). Usually these are a sort of puzzle you have to figure out, and there's often more than 1 answer (Like using a remote controlled missile on a sniper fight, poisoning the enemy with rotten food, or thinking outside the box quite literally). Personally, I find the boss fights of Touhou and most shooting games to have a lot less variety than the bosses in MGS, since even though the music, backgrounds and the bullet patterns look different, they essentially work the same way, but that doesn't mean they aren't fun to play.

What I'm planning to do, is to have the boss fights vary from each other a lot, force the player to use his/her creativity from time to time, and include a metric shit-ton of bullets flying around.

(Please note that I might alter some of my design philosophies if it seems some things just aren't working, but that's not the case just yet.)

Have any of you seen this pic before?
I can't count the amount of crossover pics I've seen of these 2 series.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/mgtouhousample.png/
Ha, that's just awesome! But not exactly the kind of style I'm wishing for this game... Too gritty and "realistic" ^^'

And we couldn't use just edited MG2 sprites, since they have 4 directions, in this game you can move in 8. Or well, it would be possible to use them even then, but I wouldn't find the result satisfactory if the character was not facing the direction it's moving at even when not strafing to get a better aim at the enemy. But if you were talking about making the sprites from scratch, just using a similiar style, then well... by all means, feel free to do so! I would probably find some use for them, even if I ended up choosing something else for the "main" sprites. (Recently 1 volunteer appeared saying that he is willing to try drawing some sprites. Therefore it might not be as urgent to recruit a new artist as I thought.)


Well, this post ended up bigger than usual. And there's so much stuff I didn't even talk about...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 01:36:15 PM by Sero »

Beef Owl

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2011, 04:04:08 PM »
Heh, that's fine, I wasn't terribly serious about this anyway considering that edited sprites are about the best you're gonna get out of me


The project's coming along nice and you've got a supporter in me :D - unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to help with sprites, I tryed playing around with some other sprites and styles but at this point PatchCon is a better alternative to me  :derp:  I don't sprite much :V

KrackoCloud

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2011, 11:17:14 PM »
Maybe you could add a few rooms that have greater focus on danmaku dodging?
For example, throw in some magic circles. These "security devices," rather than patrol like dolls, release danmaku at a constant rate. It could be sunbursts, spirals - Or maybe it would periodically send out streams of bullets that force you to move in a certain way.
You might even be able to throw in a few AI dolls so that you have to time everything - Come out, dodge the bullets, go into hiding before you're caught, repeat, etc.
In other cases, you might have to get to a magic circle and destroy it to open up a pathway blocked by constant, powerful danmaku.

It might work, though it would probably take a lot more level designing time.

EDIT : A few more ideas. How about a magic circle in the center of a room that shoots a dense, slow spiral? This would force you to move counter-clockwise around a room or something.
Or a circle that shoots an undodgeable, dense sunburst could force you to periodically run to safespots.
In the end, magic circles can be used for more than just typical danmaku! Huh.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 02:08:44 AM by Mr. Simple »

Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2011, 01:49:42 AM »
I was originally just going to post my own thought, but I like the above suggestion a lot as well. My comment was just that it feels like the enemies are a bit too aggressive during the 'red' phase and that it's a bit odd that no new enemies spawn during the yellow phase (usually you have to hide from enemies that are checking things more closely during the yellow phase, but by the time you get there you've killed everything on the map).

Altogether this is really cool - I originally clicked on the first link where it was just arrows, but was still pretty impressed. The second link was even better - keep it up!


Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2011, 01:51:14 AM »
I was originally just going to post my own thought, but I like the above suggestion a lot as well. My comment was just that it feels like the enemies are a bit too aggressive during the 'red' phase and that it's a bit odd that no new enemies spawn during the yellow phase (usually you have to hide from enemies that are checking things more closely during the yellow phase, but from what I saw, by the time you get there you've killed everything on the map).

Altogether this is really cool - I originally clicked on the first link where it was just arrows, but was still pretty impressed. The second link was even better - keep it up!

Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2011, 11:56:22 PM »
Another option could be that instead of just using sight to get caught, their sight IS the danmaku.  (If you get hit, you get seen).  Obviously this produces problems with: what happens when you get caught?  However, it could work if you think about it in terms of non-spells and spells.  Soon as they see you, they use a spell card (much harder) or something.  Just a thought, because you don't always have to maintain original engine designs to the letter.

Mimachiro

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2011, 12:09:00 AM »
Another option could be that instead of just using sight to get caught, their sight IS the danmaku.  (If you get hit, you get seen).  Obviously this produces problems with: what happens when you get caught?  However, it could work if you think about it in terms of non-spells and spells.  Soon as they see you, they use a spell card (much harder) or something.  Just a thought, because you don't always have to maintain original engine designs to the letter.
Seconding this idea as worth trying out.

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Oh, don't worry, that cat will carry off your body, so you'll be able to live in our place!"

gammaraptor

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2011, 11:21:48 PM »
The engine looks pretty good. Have you started working on story and characters? I can't help but remember "Remember Youmu, this is a sneaking mission" xD

RuneDevros

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2011, 04:31:26 PM »
This is hands down one of the most impressive things I've seen in this community. I wish you the best of luck.

What are you using to make this game? The movement looks really smooth with all the bullets on screen.

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2011, 08:48:48 PM »
Maybe you could add a few rooms that have greater focus on danmaku dodging?
For example, throw in some magic circles. These "security devices," rather than patrol like dolls, release danmaku at a constant rate. It could be sunbursts, spirals - Or maybe it would periodically send out streams of bullets that force you to move in a certain way.
You might even be able to throw in a few AI dolls so that you have to time everything - Come out, dodge the bullets, go into hiding before you're caught, repeat, etc.
In other cases, you might have to get to a magic circle and destroy it to open up a pathway blocked by constant, powerful danmaku.

It might work, though it would probably take a lot more level designing time.

EDIT : A few more ideas. How about a magic circle in the center of a room that shoots a dense, slow spiral? This would force you to move counter-clockwise around a room or something.
Or a circle that shoots an undodgeable, dense sunburst could force you to periodically run to safespots.
In the end, magic circles can be used for more than just typical danmaku! Huh.
This, gentlemen, is an awesome idea, and it makes me ashamed that I hadn't thought of it already by myself, especially since MGS has had somewhat similiar kinds of hazards. I can think of no reason to not include something like this, you have my thanks.

it feels like the enemies are a bit too aggressive during the 'red' phase and that it's a bit odd that no new enemies spawn during the yellow phase (usually you have to hide from enemies that are checking things more closely during the yellow phase, but by the time you get there you've killed everything on the map).
I am aware of this, and I'm going to be tinkering with things like the mobility, fire rate and overall activity of enemies a lot. This includes the amount of reinforcements called and the delay in them arriving.

You might also notice that the level design in the second video was faulty, as there were no proper places to escape and hide. The rooms were too small, tight and packed with enemies. In that situation, trying to run away would cause more problems than just facing the enemies.

Another option could be that instead of just using sight to get caught, their sight IS the danmaku.  (If you get hit, you get seen).  Obviously this produces problems with: what happens when you get caught?  However, it could work if you think about it in terms of non-spells and spells.  Soon as they see you, they use a spell card (much harder) or something.
Well, that's certainly an original idea. You mean like on the normal phase, the enemies would be just shooting all the time, and would notice the player only when succesfully hitting him/her? That would make the gameplay feel quite Touhou-ish, but the idea as a whole seems quite awkward to me ^^'

Unless someone really wants to convince me to do this, I think I'll stick with my MGS-esque stealth as the default gameplay. Of course, I can break and change the rules of the game as it progresses, introduce new threats and there's almost no limit to how much the boss fights can differ from the usual levels. So I might add something like that, if I feel the playability would benefit from it.

you don't always have to maintain original engine designs to the letter.
I know that quite well, and where would the fun (my fun, when I'm making the game!) be if I just copied other games? ^^

The engine looks pretty good. Have you started working on story and characters? I can't help but remember "Remember Youmu, this is a sneaking mission" xD
Heh, I also remember that well.

Yes, I've started the work on the story and characters, and I have several plot points and characters' roles written down. This is a Metal Gear Solid parody/tribute after all, what would it be without a complicated story? Of course, if someone feels like they could help with the story, I wouldn't mind the team having an official dedicated "writer". Since I consider myself more of a game designer, not a storyteller ^^'

(We might especially need some kind of Gensokyo advisor, since we want to contradict with the official canon and facts as little as possible, and chances are that there's lots of both minor and major stuff I've missed or forgotten.)

This is hands down one of the most impressive things I've seen in this community. I wish you the best of luck.

What are you using to make this game? The movement looks really smooth with all the bullets on screen.
That's really nice to hear!

I still remember when I was wondering "what will I use to make this game?"... I ended up choosing Game Maker (do I hear sighs of disappointment?), since it felt like the most effective way to do this. Seeing that by now it's not about "what can I do" but "what do I want to do", I feel like I made the right decision.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 08:50:28 PM by Sero »

KrackoCloud

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Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2011, 10:58:08 PM »
This, gentlemen, is an awesome idea, and it makes me ashamed that I hadn't thought of it already by myself, especially since MGS has had somewhat similiar kinds of hazards. I can think of no reason to not include something like this, you have my thanks.

...

Well, that's certainly an original idea. You mean like on the normal phase, the enemies would be just shooting all the time, and would notice the player only when succesfully hitting him/her? That would make the gameplay feel quite Touhou-ish, but the idea as a whole seems quite awkward to me ^^'
Thanks for the compliment!

Well, this can easily be incorporated into the whole magic-circles thing, can't it? When you get hit by magic-circle danmaku, you not only take damage, but you alert fairies. Sounds simple enough.

Also, I think it's really cool that you use GameMaker. Even though I have some basic GML knowledge and have managed to script up some basic gameplay for stuff, I can't even get far enough to make a single level.

Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2011, 10:46:28 AM »
Well, this can easily be incorporated into the whole magic-circles thing, can't it? When you get hit by magic-circle danmaku, you not only take damage, but you alert fairies. Sounds simple enough.
Hmm... how about the player character makes some kind of noise ("Ouch!"), which provokes nearby guards to come check the situation? That would allow the player to hide in some cases before the enemies make a full visual contact. Of course, some rooms with magic circles might be devoid of enemy patrols, so the harmfulness of the magic circles would be defined by level design.

Mimachiro

  • Master of the Swimsuit
  • Making being an evil spirit look good
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Re: Touhou x MGS [Anything goes!]
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2011, 11:01:01 AM »
Hmm... how about the player character makes some kind of noise ("Ouch!"), which provokes nearby guards to come check the situation? That would allow the player to hide in some cases before the enemies make a full visual contact. Of course, some rooms with magic circles might be devoid of enemy patrols, so the harmfulness of the magic circles would be defined by level design.
Maybe have it so the bullets make a noise when they hit, better still if the noise level varies with the type of hit: graze vs. direct hit

"I don't have anything against you, but I hope you're ready to die a dog's death!
Oh, don't worry, that cat will carry off your body, so you'll be able to live in our place!"