Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F  (Read 201879 times)

NEETori

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #390 on: June 24, 2011, 08:04:04 AM »
Remilia will thank you for not splitting points.  Pure attack would be best, as Nerv pointed out, you have a ton of tanks already, and Spear The Gungnir's meh damage formula and Iku aren't doing Remilia's ability to self-buff any favors.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #391 on: June 24, 2011, 07:04:57 PM »
Haha, I always like to have at least one attacker who isn't always expected to have buffs from someone else. It makes it a lot easier to work out rotations in some battles where buffing time and party spaces are extremely precious due to boss speed and other factors. Not to mention there are a bunch of higher priority buff targets.

Thanks for all the comments and criticism all! Should be fun going through the game again with this party (although it'll get switched up some for post-game).

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #392 on: June 24, 2011, 08:11:53 PM »
I wonder why Curse of Vlad Tepes also increases Remilia's MAG in addition to her ATK, DEF and MND. She doesn't use that stat at all. Maybe she was planned to have some spells that use her MAG, but they decided to cut these spells and her MAG-growth and left her selfbuff as it was.
Edit: Nevermind, Reisen's selfbuff also increases her ATK, even though she doesn't use it. Seems like the developers didn't like pure ATK / pure MAG buffs.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 09:34:52 AM by Nerv-Faktor »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #393 on: June 26, 2011, 06:10:32 AM »
Well, been going on in the game (already finished 8F, although I haven't fought the Foe or Suwako yet - my levels are a bit low because I practically sprinted through 7F as compared to the last time I was there and mapped out every single teleporter result in MS Word) and decided that I really don't like Tenshi. She's got great DEF/MND, but it just doesn't seem to typically be enough to offset her HP oftentimes. Also, her self-buff seemed superfluous, what with Yukari and Minoriko buffing defenses. Simiarly, as I love using Iku and only have 1 PAR resistance equip at this point, I really need someone else other than Mystia (as in, someone who's always in, hint hint) to help take care of these status effects (Not to mention the PSN/PAR on Remilia for her self buff). Anyways, as a result I'm going back to using Meiling as my main tank over Tenshi - she just seems to fit into my party much better than Tenshi. IIRC, I think I might have had the same problem last time around too - who knows though.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #394 on: June 26, 2011, 11:13:04 AM »
Anyways, as a result I'm going back to using Meiling as my main tank over Tenshi

There are a few bosses where Tenshi really shines, but other than that Meiling is simply the better tank in this game. At least in my opinion.

zephyredx

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #395 on: June 26, 2011, 04:34:50 PM »
There are a few bosses where Tenshi really shines, but other than that Meiling is simply the better tank in this game. At least in my opinion.

Other than tanking ridiculous composite attacks, Tenshi can use sword of rapture to prevent some bosses from becoming utterly destructive (for instance, cancelling out Overflowing Natural Power). Doesn't work all the time, but it only needs to work a few times to give you breathing room.
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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #396 on: June 27, 2011, 04:12:28 AM »
Well now...  Eientei, for all the worrying I'd done, was...rather disappointing.

2nd attempt I won.  Basically I started by having Cirno and Suwako do a bit of para-haxing, then with help from Reimu's healing and some Sticklebacked Royal Flares(40 something k to Eirin in one shot!) and some Return Inanimateness castings, Eirin died first, despite having the most HP, then I laid into Kaguya til she fell.  Reisen?  Well, she DID Focus, but I wiped her out RIGHT before Mind Starmine, though I did have Iku out to tank the blow anyway in case somehow the others got wiped by it, so basically Reisen was nothing.  The Discarders throughout the fight were annoying though.

Reimu 53 might've been why I basically laid waste to them though, since IIRC the recommended level is 50-55...  On to Floor 13!
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NEETori

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #397 on: June 27, 2011, 08:33:17 AM »
There are a few bosses where Tenshi really shines, but other than that Meiling is simply the better tank in this game. At least in my opinion.

Despite Meiling's lower attack, Meiling seems puts out consistently better numbers on offense than Tenshi (due to having a superior attack skill), can heal herself, unlike Tenshi, and can comfortably take almost anything Tenshi can.  Tenshi's main niches are Sword of Rapture and being able to shut out certain bosses. 

Other than tanking ridiculous composite attacks, Tenshi can use sword of rapture to prevent some bosses from becoming utterly destructive (for instance, cancelling out Overflowing Natural Power). Doesn't work all the time, but it only needs to work a few times to give you breathing room.

Even then, it's not necessary, and somewhat unreliable.  It CAN help versus certain bosses (outside of Komachi, I don't see anyone taking a souped up Giga Flare), but that's only if it works.  By the way, Tenshi's a terrible tank for Okuu, since Okuu hits hard enough to break through her even at 100% buffs.  Meiling can also take most of the same composite attacks as Tenshi anyways and heal it off herself.  Tenshi's major advantage is preserving turns (Tenshi might not need to heal). 

IMO, Tenshi's main job is to tank for boss battles where you need to keep healing at a minimum (due to SP reasons or because you need to quickly defeat the boss), OR act as a second tank to assist Meiling in switching teammates out and in quickly, and not die.  She does it spectacularly, but in most standard boss battles, Meiling does an already excellent job and can play more roles than switching.

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #398 on: June 27, 2011, 04:32:21 PM »
So if Tenshi and Meiling are out, who takes which slot and why?

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #399 on: June 27, 2011, 06:27:58 PM »
So if Tenshi and Meiling are out, who takes which slot and why?

I wouldn't have both of them out at the same time, both of them are 'slot 1 tanks', but I'd put Meiling in slot 1. Some bosses have big attacks that always hit the character furthest to the left, if that's some defense-piercing move it can probably kill Tenshi.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 06:29:57 PM by Nerv-Faktor »

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #400 on: June 27, 2011, 11:03:06 PM »
Yeah, I had Tenshi in my first playthru and I thought her sword of rapture was utter crap. It failed more often than not, by a LOT. And while you might say it helps alot if it works. When it doesn't... Thing is Tenshi's hp is so gimped that if there is a superpowered boss out there and her sword of rapture doesn't put it back in line, she will most likely be 1shot by the next hit. Meiling on the other hand, can take such a hit, furthermore, her self heal will allow her to take a 2nd, and it never fails, not to mention its faster too IIRC.

I've said it before many times, but the game simply needs more tanks. There's little to no variety. Everyone else just doesn't match up to china, and the number of runner ups are few as well.

NEETori

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #401 on: June 28, 2011, 08:30:51 AM »
So if Tenshi and Meiling are out, who takes which slot and why?

I generally put Tenshi in slot 1 unless the boss has a defense ignoring move, due to higher defense, and have two supporters who can take anything the boss dishes out, usually Yukari and Reimu, come in whenever the boss is about to attack.

EDIT:
I should point out that this isn't optimal for most bosses, but when the extra staying power is desired, it really comes in handy.

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #402 on: June 28, 2011, 05:42:52 PM »
I know. It's just theorycrafting.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #403 on: June 28, 2011, 08:17:59 PM »
So, this is totally random, but in case you haven't seen this yet:

-----SPOILER ALERT!!!!-----

This is a battle between the "worst characters in the game" (based on info on the wikia) plus Meiling against the final boss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcxRr8YnyeM


------SPOILER IS OVER!!!!-----------

No one should ever say any character "sucks", characters never suck, only gamers suck.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #404 on: June 28, 2011, 08:20:12 PM »
Wait, how are Minoriko, Nitori and Iku among the "worst"? I've always found them immensely useful.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #405 on: June 28, 2011, 08:23:37 PM »
That was actually just (mostly) characters who were "underappreciated" at the release of Special Disk. Since then, most of them have been viewed much better, and most of them really are quite nice.

In fact, several of them are practically must-haves, like Nitori and Iku.
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NEETori

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #406 on: June 28, 2011, 08:25:35 PM »
So, this is totally random, but in case you haven't seen this yet:

-----SPOILER ALERT!!!!-----

This is a battle between the "worst characters in the game" (based on info on the wikia) plus Meiling against the final boss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcxRr8YnyeM


------SPOILER IS OVER!!!!-----------

No one should ever say any character "sucks", characters never suck, only gamers suck.

We're not saying X sucks, so much as X does the same job as Y, but Y does the job better for Z reasons.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #407 on: June 28, 2011, 08:30:30 PM »
Still, that gameplay easily proves ANY party (with some minimal balance at least) can beat the game fairly easily, if you play by the characters strong points.

Of course, some characters' strong points are easier to see and exploit, while others' are more tricky and actually require some planning, the latter tend to be considered "worse" by people.

I mean, some guys are just way too lazy, I even remember someone saying Yukari was terrible in an old thread here, talk about ignoring a character's strong points; the guy that made the video I posted up there beat one of the most difficult bosses in the game without even taking damage thanks to Yukari.


EDIT: I'm not trying to be picky with anyone, it's just that it kinds of piss me off when characters in a game get a bad rep because people don't know how to use them.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 08:32:01 PM by wisefelipe »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #408 on: June 28, 2011, 08:34:31 PM »
That was actually just (mostly) characters who were "underappreciated" at the release of Special Disk. Since then, most of them have been viewed much better, and most of them really are quite nice.

In fact, several of them are practically must-haves, like Nitori and Iku.


Well, that's a fairly old video, so I imagine many of them got some "appreciation" since then, thankfully. But we still see a lot of people bashing Rumia and Wriggle for example.

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #409 on: June 28, 2011, 09:11:14 PM »
Wriggle was a fine tank and Rumia was the healer of my Team (9) run. After over 6.4k posts about this game I think we've covered a lot of who's good where scenarios.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #410 on: June 29, 2011, 12:52:25 AM »
Hey, finally managed to make this work.


I'm having a problem though, for some weird reason parts of the gamescreen are off my TV screen ( I use my TV as the computer screen), I thought it was the TV but it's not. Any idea what could be happening here?

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #411 on: June 29, 2011, 07:12:39 AM »
Play windowed I guess?

NEETori

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #412 on: June 29, 2011, 10:28:26 AM »
Now that I think about it, I wonder how broken some characters would be if they had more X.
Tenshi having more health, Meiling with more ATK and MND, Reimu with any higher growths period...

And I also wonder how certain characters who did not make it in would play.
I can imagine Tewi being either a troll or a support unit, Momiji a tank, Byakuren being a physical Reisen. 

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #413 on: June 29, 2011, 02:16:42 PM »
Well, that's a fairly old video, so I imagine many of them got some "appreciation" since then, thankfully. But we still see a lot of people bashing Rumia and Wriggle for example.
Rumia's being bashed LESS, really; she's come into a role of being a good multi-heal to back up Reimu in Plus Disk, along with being able to dish out decent damage with Moonlight Ray. The fact that she's the ONLY multi-heal that can back up Reimu (Yuuka with a high delay 10% heal doesn't count, sorry.) makes her quite worth considering to use.

Wriggle is also being bashed less, because she actually does AMAZING damage with her PSN... in the maingame. There's no getting around that in Plus Disk, her PSN does crap for damage, and while she's not a terrible tank, seriously, there's tons people who could be a better tank AND have something else they can do too. She gets obsolete like Cirno does, but she's very useful for a significant portion of the game (Both of them are droppable after Yukari, really, although Wriggle is still totally fine for using up till end of maingame if you like; Cirno not so much, unless you REALLY want her fast PAR for randoms)

Depending on how much you care about having the best person for any job and not just characters you like using, almost everyone is totally viable; much of the cast goes out of style in a top-efficiency scenario, but nearly everyone is totally fine otherwise if they're used well (With absolutely everyone being good at some point or another of the game. Except Utsuho, unless you really count being support damage to Kaguya in Dual Hibachi fight as enough to redeem her. She's viable for use I guess, but definitely not exciting...).
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zephyredx

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #414 on: June 29, 2011, 11:57:56 PM »
Except Utsuho, unless you really count being support damage to Kaguya in Dual Hibachi fight as enough to redeem her. She's viable for use I guess, but definitely not exciting...).

Hmm I just got Utsuho, but I'm not sure how much to invest in her. Is she really worth the extra damage to fight Kedamagrammaton with?
Why is Youmu afraid of Unzan?

Because the things that her sword cannot cut are next to nun!

NEETori

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #415 on: June 30, 2011, 02:21:44 AM »
Hmm I just got Utsuho, but I'm not sure how much to invest in her. Is she really worth the extra damage to fight Kedamagrammaton with?

I bow to you for beating Okuu before Kedamagrammaton.
And no, she is not.  Nitori, buffed Yuugi, Patchy, Shiki, Kaguya, Suika and even a few of the other characters can put out reasonable numbers.  Beyond Shiki, Nitori and Kaggy is probably excess considering how easy it is for them to hit 1 mil with buffs and Kedamagrammaton only has 5 million health.

Parallaxal

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #416 on: June 30, 2011, 08:30:37 AM »
Wait, how are Minoriko, Nitori and Iku among the "worst"? I've always found them immensely useful.

As the guy who made that video, perhaps I ought to explain my choices.

I started "Team Unappreciated" shortly after Ver. 3.01 came out as a sort of experiment to test out characters that I haven't really used before, and were generally regarded as mediocre. Meiling is the major exception; when I first started, I had claimed that I was confident I could beat the game with any team as long as I had Meiling and a healer of some sort. As for my other choices...

Minoriko - All right, so at the time I made that team, most people were starting to see how good she was already. However, it wasn't really that long ago that it seemed everyone liked Sanae more. Well, I always liked Minoriko (she's actually one of my favorite Touhou characters in general), so I wanted to show that she can keep up as main healer even without Reimu for support.

Rumia - She was definitely one of the least used characters, and probably still is. My main goal with her was to show that she can contribute more than just a good damage formula on Moonlight Ray. Dark Side of the Moon turned out to be a dud (it's still way too weak at pretty much every point of the game), but getting MAG buffs on Demarcation turned her into a competent group healer in the Plus Disk.

Wriggle - Poison is much-maligned, and that's not surprising given how difficult it is to measure. One of my goals with Team Unappreciated was to calculate just how much damage Wriggle was contributing with poison. Since I recorded all of the boss fights, I could easily go back and tally up the damage dealt, then subtract that from the boss's HP to find poison damage. I concluded that Wriggle's poison is quite powerful in the main game and definitely worth a party slot, but gets severely outclassed in the Plus Disk due to everyone being faster (thus giving less time for poison to work). She's still a great 2nd slot subtank, though.

Iku - She's the discovery that I'm most proud of. Before I started Team Unappreciated, I don't think I knew anyone who used her seriously on their main team. Her wiki entry was full of wrong information, describing her defenses as "average'" (lol best MND tank in the game) and listing Thundercloud Stickleback as giving only +50% ATK/MAG. I think the earlier tier lists I read listed her as low tier, or thereabouts. Even I myself bought into that. I'll confess that when I was first drafting up Team Unappreciated, I left Iku off the list because I had no clue how I was suppose to use her (my goal was to let each character shine in some way). Someone else had to convince me to give her a try. Soon, it hit me that Thundercloud Stickleback was actually giving +72% despite its in-game description. Then I discovered her monstrous MND growth (after wasting 60+ lvl bonuses on MAG). Eventually, my perspective changed from her being low tier to wondering how I ever played this game without her.

Nitori - When I started up the team, I had a hunch that she was going to be good. However, remember that I started the team right after 3.01 came out. Back in the 2.04 days, Nitori was hardly ever used by anyone. That's because the old damage formula for Megawatt Linear Gun wasn't that amazing. Well, it was pretty good, but Nitori's subpar stats really hurt its performance. After switching to 3.01, though, the damage became incredible. I knew it had been buffed, but I didn't realize just how big a difference it was. It didn't take too long after 3.01's release for people to figure out that Nitori is a top tier damage dealer now, but when I first made this team most people weren't sure just how much better she had gotten.

Reisen - The other discovery that I'm proud of. Reisen was considered by many to be the absolute worst character in the game. You should have seen her old wiki entry; it all but outright said so! And of course, I believed it too. But then I stumbled upon a detail that was missing from her wiki data page: Grand Patriot's Elixir has a post-use gauge of 84%. That's absolutely INSANE for such a strong buff! Once she had enough SP to spam it during boss fights, she easily became an awesome damage dealer that could also debuff well. I didn't even care about the debuffs in most of the Plus Disk fights; just her DPS with Mind Starmine was enough. In the Plus Disk, she was second only to Nitori in terms of damage output. She's still one of my pet favorites in the game now.

Mokou - She's a really "average" mage-type character, and I'll admit that I didn't really show her to be fantastic or anything. I don't think people thought she was "bad" per se, just really boring and typical. She trades some damage for survivability and is not limited to a single element like many other mages are, but I think I failed to show her off adequately, especially compared to the next character. Sometimes I wonder if she'd appear to be better if I didn't use the next character. Still, her survivability was important for me, as I often switched her in to take a hit in place of Nitori (who pretty much never got hit throughout almost the entire Plus Disk; I'm not risking my best weapon!).

Orin - At the time, popular opinion was that Orin was great at clearing floor trash, but poor against bosses. I set out to disprove this notion, and I'd like to think that I've at least gotten people to reconsider. Blazing Wheel really is a great nuke for most boss fights. It has the most powerful damage formula of any composite spell in the game, and Orin's stats are just good enough to make use of it. Her high speed is also key, as it lets her spam Blazing Wheel (which doesn't really have terrible delay in the first place) while staying in. I even found a niche use for Cat's Walk (see my Flame Tyrant video). She can usually take a hit from magic thanks to her high MND growth, and to be honest, Blazing Wheel was slightly outdamaging Fujiyama Volcano in almost every battle. I suppose she stole some of Mokou's thunder...I'll admit that I like her more thank Mokou.

Keine - General consensus was that Keine is average in every sense of the word. And after taking her all the way through 30 floors...I'd have to agree. She never stood out aside from above-average durability, and her ability to buff an entire party's offenses was kind of overshadowed by how broken Thundercloud Stickleback is. And yet, she never disappointed me either. She fulfilled her duty reliably, but didn't go above and beyond any expectations. All I have to say is that I wouldn't be unwilling to have to use her for offensive buffs instead of Iku or Ran, but I'd still rather have Iku. I bet if I didn't have Iku on my team, she'd shine a lot more.

Maribel - Everyone was saying that she's probably OK on paper, but no one ever seems to talk about actually trying her out. So that's exactly what I did. To be honest, I found her to be a little worse than Reisen, which is by no means an insult, as I thought Reisen was great. If I didn't have Reisen on the team, I'd probably have appreciated her a little more. As it stands, I think all I ended up demonstrating is that she's perfectly usable, but not particularly exciting. Oh well. I liked her spread of elements, at least.

Renko - Another "good on paper" character, but actual stories of people using her were hard to find. Some people were probably put off by her non-existant damage output. Well, I thought Cirno wasn't that bad for the main story during my earlier Let's Play, so I tried her out...and found out exactly why she's normally only recruited when you're halfway through the Plus Disk. Galaxy Stop and Debilitate are both incredible, and completely shatters the difficulty curve of the main game. In fact, I had to stop using her until I got to the 20F boss because she just made things too easy. Her usefulness in the Plus Disk started to deminish near the very end, though, as the 30F bosses boast some pretty high resistances to PAR and debuffs. To be honest, I didn't think Charge was that great in practice (only really used it for maybe 2 boss fights), but her other abilities still made her worth it against the vast majority of bosses. Just keep in mind that there are a few that she's nearly useless for, so it might be better to leave her as a substituted and switch her in for certain boss fights where she'll clean house.

Well...that went on a lot longer than I expected. But those were my thoughts concerning Team Unappreciated.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #417 on: June 30, 2011, 09:05:24 AM »
That was very informative. Thank you very much. (Also, I made the decision to try Reisen out on my next playthrough :3)

NEETori

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #418 on: June 30, 2011, 09:13:36 AM »
That was very informative. Thank you very much. (Also, I made the decision to try Reisen out on my next playthrough :3)

Reisen is probably high tier for me.
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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 7F
« Reply #419 on: July 01, 2011, 05:52:57 AM »
Iku - She's the discovery that I'm most proud of. Before I started Team Unappreciated, I don't think I knew anyone who used her seriously on their main team. Her wiki entry was full of wrong information, describing her defenses as "average'" (lol best MND tank in the game) and listing Thundercloud Stickleback as giving only +50% ATK/MAG. I think the earlier tier lists I read listed her as low tier, or thereabouts. Even I myself bought into that. I'll confess that when I was first drafting up Team Unappreciated, I left Iku off the list because I had no clue how I was suppose to use her (my goal was to let each character shine in some way). Someone else had to convince me to give her a try. Soon, it hit me that Thundercloud Stickleback was actually giving +72% despite its in-game description. Then I discovered her monstrous MND growth (after wasting 60+ lvl bonuses on MAG). Eventually, my perspective changed from her being low tier to wondering how I ever played this game without her.

Reisen - The other discovery that I'm proud of. Reisen was considered by many to be the absolute worst character in the game. You should have seen her old wiki entry; it all but outright said so! And of course, I believed it too. But then I stumbled upon a detail that was missing from her wiki data page: Grand Patriot's Elixir has a post-use gauge of 84%. That's absolutely INSANE for such a strong buff! Once she had enough SP to spam it during boss fights, she easily became an awesome damage dealer that could also debuff well. I didn't even care about the debuffs in most of the Plus Disk fights; just her DPS with Mind Starmine was enough. In the Plus Disk, she was second only to Nitori in terms of damage output. She's still one of my pet favorites in the game now.

Well...that went on a lot longer than I expected. But those were my thoughts concerning Team Unappreciated.
Yeah, I used those two myself on my first playthrough (where I didn't finish the plus disk). I actually started using Iku about the same time you were realizing how good she was (I think I went MND with her on your recommendation - I remember corresponding with you a few times in PMs on GitP). I just can't imagine playing without Iku now lol, so much value in her.