A Balanced Game of Mafia (Over; town wins)

[Kiro]

Rereading UK and Shadoweh Day 2. Shadoweh goes on Bard, then decides to go on UK. Her case is on ironic because "I think it's possible you as scum would superbus an obvious liability and coast on townie cred," could also apply to her if UK wished to make the same case on Shadoweh. And UK clearly was thinking about Shadoweh before the Bard mess kicked in.

You know, Shadoweh is the most dangerous of the unconfirmed players. And I really do think she wanted UK out more for the suspicion than for looking for the Cop. Because UK was not giving Cop tells imo. I think I'm now in agreement with Bard. I'd rather see Shadoweh lynched over Dan in LYLO. Also because Dan just reads like Town. I don't like all of his actions (passing off his eagerness to hammer as derpish), but I can agree with what he says as a Townie. He just doesn't look like Scum. Shadoweh's actions play more like Scum than Dan's.

[Omba]

Also, Sect hesitates for so long to vote, but then decides to go Shadoweh. Then there's the weird unvote by Shadoweh on Sect with little need for Shadoweh to have voted Sect in the first place. Trying to act Townie maybe?

If the reason was as she stated - to get him to vote -, then that actually goes both ways. It works as "help town, damnit" as well as "try to look towny instead of scummy, damnit". In either case, Sect might just have gone for the easiest vote available to him when Shadoweh told him to do so. And unvote because of "ah, he got it" would also work either way.

[Shadoweh]

That was the opposite of awesome.
Dan: CAN YOU RESIST HAMMERING?!
*SHADOWEH'S INTERNET STOPS WORKING FOR 5 HOURS*
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH
reeeeding

[Kitten4u]

I've already thought about it Kiro.  I couldn't have possibly declared that there is no way Shadoweh could be scum without doing that.

-Not really sure why Dormio acknowledging you makes Shadoweh scum vs Dormio going "yes I agree.  lookit me agreeing with the smart townperson! "

-I don't see what's wrong with the Sect vote/unvote to begin with.  It just looks like typical Shadoweh D1 rage to me.  I know for a fact that she's read GDIC because we make constant jokes about that game. :V  The entire conversation reads to me as "DO SOMETHING DAMMIT!" because Sect did nothing but be awesome with flavor in GDIC.  The entire conversation reads very naturally for town!Shadoweh, so I have no idea why people have a problem with this.

-I think Sect also really hated Dan.  Speculation yes, but I think he would have switched regardless of who he was voting before.  Sect's voting patterns could indeed suggest scum!Shadoweh.  However,  I think Dormio was treating her like mislynch material.  He only got off of her AFTER her wagon completely dissolved.  So yeah.  Sure, Sect's vote could indeed be him trying to get off his buddy.  I really doubt that's what it is.

So I have to ask.  If they were really roped into voting for the roleblocker ED1 like that, why didn't Sect vote for Dormio once his wagon took off?  And why didn't Dormio vote for what would have to be town!Dan in order to save himself?  Personally, I consider it more likely that there was no super bussing going on at all based on how infrequently Dormio and Sect mentioned each other (hence my vote for Hourai), but if it came down to Shadoweh vs Dan the choice would be easy for me.  If the scum team was going to super bus I don't see why Sect wouldn't have been on Dormio.

[Shadoweh]

Current lynch order of preference is Hourai->Polaris->Shadoweh->Dan. Dan only because first day scum train seems unlikely but as he continues to talk he continues to look more scummy. Hourai for obvreasons, Polaris by process of elimination and Shadoweh beats out Dan by suggesting Kiro could still be scum, by denying that the Cop cleared me as town and general shenanigans. :|

But Kiro could still be scum. :/ I forgot to mention you with Omba because I was thinking of the doctor situation on Day 2 but yes, you're obviously clear as well Bard. I forget things like this when I write posts before sleeping. And you calling me on shenanigans is amusing but I can't defend myself from something general like that. Considering I think the question is academic I'm not overly worried about arguing over it.

I've thought about it because every possibility has to be considered. It's why I can't sleep at night all this thinking! I can sum up every game town has lost as 'they didn't consider everything.' If it seriously somehow comes down to it I'd rather know now what to expect then to have someone flip a coin for what should have been the easiest town win in the history of ever.

-I don't see what's wrong with the Sect vote/unvote to begin with.  It just looks like typical Shadoweh D1 rage to me.  I know for a fact that she's read GDIC because we make constant jokes about that game. :V  The entire conversation reads to me as "DO SOMETHING DAMMIT!" because Sect did nothing but be awesome with flavor in GDIC.  The entire conversation reads very naturally for town!Shadoweh, so I have no idea why people have a problem with this.

This is really why. The voting/unvoting was really getting on my nerves. If someone is allowed to go through Day 1 without taking a stand they might as well not be here at all. I asked him at least three times to vote with just words before voting him and he ignored the hell out of me until I phrased it in the form of CONTRIBUTE OR DIE. I unvoted because his 'case' on me was hilariously bad but I could see where he got it from. I honestly thought it came from a silly newbtown. Everything he did screamed derptown. I'm still depressed he ended up being scum.

Dan: It might be just us arguing for the sake of arguing but you could at least try not to speed conversation of your own fate along. :/ This kind of thinking is good for a newbie like you the most, you're playing to learn aren't you?

Aaaaahhh going to be late for work. No Dan I'm not hammering while people who might not be here tomorrow want to say something. I'll be back in a few hours.

[ActionDan]

I think Sect also really hated Dan.  Speculation yes, but I think he would have switched regardless of who he was voting before

"hate" is a rather strong word. dislike, maybe.  Also I don't think Sect hated me, because he made references to "shenanigans" which suggest that perhaps he was really tired of trying to keep up his ruse (a.k.a fake rage).  Then again, as Scum I would have adopted George Constanza's beliefs, one of which is, "It's not a lie if you believe it!" 

[Kitten4u]

I used the word I thought was most appropriate. :V  I think he just really didn't want to play with you.  Meaning he would have voted for you regardless of your alignment or anyone else's. 

[Kitten4u]

But Kiro could still be scum. :/

Bringing this up while I'm thinking about it.  Stopping the NK like that when you don't plan on claiming doc is incredibly silly.  If the doc had, say, protected UK all it would have done was clear a townie.  Since Kiro was already looking townie enough to be defended there's no real advantage in making such a gambit.

In other words, this is bad and you should feel bad for suggesting it. :V

[ActionDan]

Dan: It might be just us arguing for the sake of arguing but you could at least try not to speed conversation of your own fate along. :/ This kind of thinking is good for a newbie like you the most, you're playing to learn aren't you?

Aaaaahhh going to be late for work. No Dan I'm not hammering while people who might not be here tomorrow want to say something. I'll be back in a few hours.

It could be because I'm dense, but I don't understand the first statement.  About hammering: I understand that optimally we should use the whole day, but these so called "people" (confirmed townies with the exception of Kiro) haven't said much in a one day period going on 2 days.  Also I'm pretty sure (and I bet he thinks so too) that Kiro will be the NK tonight, so the others not saying much doesn't matter at this juncture.   I doubt activity will pick up any time soon today. Tomorrow is a different story. If HH is town, then there will be more activity because K4U's opinion will carry a little more weight. 

Other random thoughts:  I don't place much stake in shadoweh's Vote/Unvote of Sect, just seems silly.  When and if it comes down to a Dan/shadoweh slapfight later then I'll consider it.  Also the probability that Kiro is scum is literally <1%, so let's drop it, and worry about other things

cut- by Kitten4u: 
on "hate": The only game I have seen if the archives go like that was the game affinity super bussed Roukanken and the tracker failed so hard that Rev voted him..... ...... ..... even though he knew he was town.  I just can't see Sect hating me if we were both Scum, I mean could you imagine the scum QT??  Your entitled to call it a ruse if you feel it was for Scum purposes.... but not hate.
on Kiro: precisely       
 

[Kitten4u]

Dan, just wondering.  What makes you think there will even BE a NK tonight?

[ActionDan]

I was talking about whether or not lazy confirmed townies being lazy and not talking actually mattered.  It doesn't of course if we hammer HH and he's scum, I didn't think I needed to point this out. Assuming HH is town, there will be a NK.  Curious you picked at this point, perhaps you just read it a little fast 

[Kitten4u]

##Unvote

I need a bit to think about things.

[Kiro]

K4U; The point about Dormio acknowledging me would be the following: he put his vote on Shadoweh as part of Ed1. Then after I voted Shadoweh, he agreed with me. Why he would agree with me seems to be the point of contention. Was it mislynch material or was he kind of stuck with a vote that he doesn't feel like he can walk away from so easily? It's a push though depending on who you ask.

The Sect/Shadoweh thing is a town meta read to you. I don't have that experience so I had an eyebrow raise when I saw that. The action by itself, stands as more scummy than not. And if I recall from someone else's comment, Shadoweh hasn't been Scum yet here. Clearing this as a Town only meta is reckless. Much like how UK can trap and tunnel as both alignments.

Dormio only got off the Shadoweh wagon after I did with Sect immediately getting off as well. Sect helped facilitate the weakening of the Shadoweh wagon and for a really weird reason: talking about 3 people and then simply voting Dan.

And the Day 2 case Shadoweh has on UK is bad. Why did you decide to go on UK framing the point as a superbus suspicion? It's hypocritical given you did the same thing and your position is worse because you were later on the wagon. I think in this game, it was more dangerous for Scum to bus Sect on Day 2 than Dormio on Day 1. The Day 2 bus means that Scum is alone and much more vulnerable to Town powers and process of elimination. Dan was on Sect early and Shadoweh waffled on it. I know I did too, but between the two of them, Dan came out looking better than Shadoweh on that point.

I'm torn about this because both K4U and Bard have different beliefs on this, but I can see how both people as Town could believe their stances. This admittedly would be an unusual showdown. I don't care if one of Hourai or K4U is the real Scum and is trolling me/us and Town has no way to lose this game against those 2. Scum has had it rough the first 2 days. The kill on UK rather than perhaps Omba in my opinion was relatively smart. And quite frankly, these are probably the 3 deciding factors for me.

1) Scum Dan has far less of a reason to kill UK than Scum Shadoweh does.
2) A double Scum wagon on Day 1 does not seem plausible in any game, ESPECIALLY with how difficult the wagons were to move in this one.
3) Sect wanted Dan dead more than either Sect or Dormio wanted Shadoweh dead just by looking at their votes before Day 1 deadline.

[Kitten4u]

I checked the vote count as of 76 real quick.  You and Dormio were the only ones on Shadoweh at the time.  Considering there was a delicious town vs town slapfight going on, and his goon buddy was being pretty useless, I don't think it would have been hard for him to get off of Shadoweh if he wanted to.  I really do read Dormio's vote as "I can lynch this."

I will take back my thing on Sect not voting Dormio at the end of the day though, because I realize it's stupid now.  His Dan vote feels like a vote on emotion that would ignore any amount of reason, the positives and negatives, and everything else.  Regardless of his alignment, he wanted Dan dead.

The Sect/Shadoweh thing really isn't that much of a meta read to me.  Parts of it are based in meta sure, but I really see nothing scummy about it at all.  I still don't understand why so many other people do.

[ActionDan]

1) Scum Dan has far less of a reason to kill UK than Scum Shadoweh does.
2) A double Scum wagon on Day 1 does not seem plausible in any game, ESPECIALLY with how difficult the wagons were to move in this one.
3) Sect wanted Dan dead more than either Sect or Dormio wanted Shadoweh dead just by looking at their votes before Day 1 deadline.

I agree with points 2) + 3) fully, but must disagree about 1).  When UK died I immediatly thought of Shadoweh, because of their exchange D2.  However, that may have been the point.  I was suspecting that Omba would go down or someone who scum thought was the Cop, and UK didn't give off that impression (especially with her Omba cop post).  the UK kill probably served Polaris/HH's purposes more.  Why? because UK was on HH for both days, and she was suspecting Polaris.  Basically she was more of a threat to them.  O wait I just misinterpreted the point.. T_T. So... Scum!me would have killed Polaris or finished off Omba, no actually definitely Polaris, I really thought he was a PR.  Ya.. I doubt Scum!me would have killed UK, who was always one of the people who awarded me more town cred than others.

[Kitten4u]

Dan, what is your definition of a scum slip?  Is there any difference between a scum slip and a scummy action in your opinion?

[ActionDan]

Apparently I use the word scumslip as much as a certain lawyer cries, "OBJECTION!".  So.. Ya, Bard's scumslip was not a scumslip, just imo scummy. The late D1 arguement I had with HH probably qualifies. Sect's question when he first voted me at the end of his post I guess was less of a "slip" then completely unfathomable.

So yes there is a difference, but I was trying to grope for one way too hard.  I think Hourai still slipped up in D1 with mixing up the timeline of posts.   

[Bardiche]

WIFOM everywhere.

If the game hadn't already become boring by this point it has now. :V

Can we just lynch Dan for good measure?

[Kitten4u]

If Hourai slipped why did you lead D2 with a vote on Sect instead of Hourai?  And D3, why did you hammer Zak if Hourai slipped and there was only one scum left?

[Hanged Hourai]

ZZZzzzzzzzzz

[ActionDan]

Can we just lynch Dan for good measure?

AFFEFEAASDFEF;
only If I can troll Bard for good measure

If Hourai slipped why did you lead D2 with a vote on Sect instead of Hourai?  And D3, why did you hammer Zak if Hourai slipped and there was only one scum left?

I was convinced Sect was Obvscum.  The hammer on Zak was not on purpose. I did vote HH first.  It's not absolutely clear that HH was scum.  People with greater knowledge than me were switching to Zak (I always get glossy eyed now when I read Kiro's posts).  In the end I thought we were going to vote HH next so I didn't care too much.  I think everyone is far far far far FAR more town than HH. 

[ActionDan]

ZZZzzzzzzzzz

I'm also wondering why you are not yet as well. 

[ActionDan]

Key word missing in last post being "Dead"

[ActionDan]

I say it's time for a motion to mass vote Hourai!  I'll Start!
##Unvote
##Vote Hanged Hourai

[Kitten4u]

kldsnfkdsndf

I really, really dislike all that.  But I finished my read of D1 again.  This is still more likely imo.

##Vote Hanged Hourai

[ActionDan]

Just saying this now, After game can we all discuss scum slips and examples thereof.  I promise to look at each one in context for a good long while.  I am 90% certain that HH will flip scum, if not I will be very angry at myself.

[ActionDan]

Also won't be here for the next few hours ( I have to go in 5 min or so).  And since I expect that the hammer is around the corner, I'd rather it come sooner!
If it comes when I am gone, I shall feel trolled.

[Edible]

Sure Is Votecount In Here

Hanged Hourai (3): Kitten4U, Bardiche, Action Dan
Kitten4U (1): Hanged Hourai

Hanged Hourai is at L-1!

Not voting: Omba, Shadoweh, Kiro

~28 hours remaining?  7 alive, 4 to lynch.

[Kiro]

Whatever, got the posts out that I wanted. Although I'd prefer to let Shadoweh have the hammer in case she wants to address any of the above.

[ActionDan]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Bard can't hammer he's already voting, we're waiting for his  :wikipedia: :wikipedia: :wikipedia:
I'm the one with ze Hammah!

You have the Poweh!