Author Topic: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin ~ GAME OVER, WOLVES WIN  (Read 77204 times)

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
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Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #330 on: September 16, 2010, 11:02:50 AM »
Bluh, I indeed missed my bus.

To my knowledge, no, I was not roleblocked. And no, I don't really expect people to believe me, but it's true.

(townie gambits only work under circumstances that were not present here)
Yeah, I was mostly just trying to delay my lynch, since I think we can agree I would have been otherwise. Hoping to stop the NK by attracting it was more of a "Hopefully it will, but..." thing. I really do wonder if it would have worked if Kilga hadn't claimed powerrole, though. Eh, whatever.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #331 on: September 16, 2010, 11:29:06 AM »
I say that those circumstances were not present because:

A) There was nothing to be GAINED from the fakeclaim.
B) Fakeclaiming a Cop will ALWAYS, ALWAYS earn the scrutiny of the real Cop, and invariably make them drop hints about their presence. This never favours Town because the actual Cop will be forced to contest the Copclaim because lying isn't Town.

Admittedly sometimes I go against that sentiment (see: anonymafier), but in this case the cons far outweigh any merit, especially given you could've turned the whole thing round and round a lot still.

I don't believe the "I wasn't roleblocked" thing, but the reasoning is nested in WIFOM and I am unwilling to tread on that heavily.

I would like explanation why you think jeopardising the Cop's identity seemed like a good idea to you at the time, and why you gave yourself Highest Priority by claiming Cop, whilst 'clearing' Kilgamayan and thus lending him as a good alternative kill. You implicated him to scum by clearing him under authority of a Copclaim, which should always be a good alternate choice if you fear the Cop might be doc'd. The lack of roleblock is still baffling, though, so explanations.

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #332 on: September 16, 2010, 11:38:38 AM »
@Serela: Not buying it.  By claiming correctly as doc (if you were one) you could have invited more WIFOM games that scum would have to deal with during the night (since you could invite the NK the same way without giving Kilga away as a confirmed townie and lying, and make scum wonder who you are protecting).  It also makes absolutely no sense for scum not to roleblock you (given that Kilga was roleblocked on N1 and you claiming cop on D2, I don't see what scum would have to lose in preventing you from giving an investigation result).  Furthermore, your lynch was not inevitable on D2 by any means and I do not understand why you keep saying as such.  It's probably inevitable now though, what you said fits far more like a scum gambit than a town gambit, and you ended up killing Kilga directly or indirectly by making him stand out as a confirmed townie.

Serela

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Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #333 on: September 16, 2010, 11:52:56 AM »
B) Fakeclaiming a Cop will ALWAYS, ALWAYS earn the scrutiny of the real Cop, and invariably make them drop hints about their presence. This never favours Town because the actual Cop will be forced to contest the Copclaim because lying isn't Town.
...honestly, I think that unless it's likely only one scum is left or it's LyLo or somesuch, a cop revealing themselves to be a cop due to someone roleclaiming is stupid. It's not like it's bad to go "I don't believe your claim", especially in this case we have here. Claiming on the other hand, just signs you up to get NK'd. That's pretty damn anti-town of the cop to do, since the cop is such a useful role.

I do understand how that makes sense if people actually believe the guy fakeclaiming, but in this case, really? The best I got was "I'm not sure if I believe it or not", most people at least leaning towards not believing, I was still likely going to be lynched soon... why p.much sign yourself up for an NK just to make me look a little more suspicious, and as such deny the town of their ACTUAL cop?

Quote
I would like explanation why you think jeopardising the Cop's identity seemed like a good idea to you at the time, and why you gave yourself Highest Priority by claiming Cop, whilst 'clearing' Kilgamayan and thus lending him as a good alternative kill. You implicated him to scum by clearing him under authority of a Copclaim, which should always be a good alternate choice if you fear the Cop might be doc'd.
I... didn't think about how it would be implicating him. I was just thinking "Well, I have good reason to believe he is indeed town, and good enough reason to have investigated him...". And claiming anyone I copped to be scum would a helluva lot worse unless by some miracle enough town decided to lynch them AND they flipped scum.

tbh Kilga or UK probably would have been the NK N2 anyway, but that's only speculation

oh affinityninja
@Serela: Not buying it.  By claiming correctly as doc (if you were one) you could have invited more WIFOM games that scum would have to deal with during the night (since you could invite the NK the same way without giving Kilga away as a confirmed townie and lying, and make scum wonder who you are protecting).
Unless Docs usually cannot doc themselves, I didn't think this would work as well. I also hadn't realized the problems with the other strategy.

 
Quote
It also makes absolutely no sense for scum not to roleblock you (given that Kilga was roleblocked on N1 and you claiming cop on D2, I don't see what scum would have to lose in preventing you from giving an investigation result)
Why are you jumping towards scum having the roleblocker so quickly? It could just as likely (or more likely, due to probabilities and randomly assigned roles) that Town has it.

Quote
you ended up killing Kilga directly or indirectly by making him stand out as a confirmed townie.
K, not going to try to say I didn't do anything stupid here, but if I was scum lying about being a cop in that N2, wouldn't I want to NOT nk the person I claimed town, so that after I die they're surrounded with a massive cloud of WIFOM and town might end up lynching them?
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #334 on: September 16, 2010, 12:40:30 PM »
Quote
It's not like it's bad to go "I don't believe your claim", especially in this case we have here. Claiming on the other hand, just signs you up to get NK'd. That's pretty damn anti-town of the cop to do, since the cop is such a useful role.

But counterclaiming ensures that scum get lynched.  This is based on the premise that town does not lie.  This is why you are more anti-town than everyone else.

Quote
nless Docs usually cannot doc themselves, I didn't think this would work as well. I also hadn't realized the problems with the other strategy.

Scum don't know that, and usually to my knowledge here, they can self-protect.

Quote
Why are you jumping towards scum having the roleblocker so quickly? It could just as likely (or more likely, due to probabilities and randomly assigned roles) that Town has it.

Fair; I suppose I thought you were scum too much all this while.  But usually, I have not heard of a town roleblocker being used in MoTK before (though it's possible).

Quote
K, not going to try to say I didn't do anything stupid here, but if I was scum lying about being a cop in that N2, wouldn't I want to NOT nk the person I claimed town, so that after I die they're surrounded with a massive cloud of WIFOM and town might end up lynching them?

... possible.  But since Kilga would be town in that case and since he declared he had a role, wouldn't scum want to get rid of him in fear of some results?  I think what you denied is the more plausible option.  It's WIFOM but scum have more to gain by doing the option I suggested.

And since you did something stupid, and since this (unlike townie mistakes in voting and making cases for example) actually results in tangible harm towards town, you still deserve to be lynched regardless.

Kilgamayan

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Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #335 on: September 16, 2010, 01:07:24 PM »
...honestly, I think that unless it's likely only one scum is left or it's LyLo or somesuch, a cop revealing themselves to be a cop due to someone roleclaiming is stupid. It's not like it's bad to go "I don't believe your claim", especially in this case we have here. Claiming on the other hand, just signs you up to get NK'd. That's pretty damn anti-town of the cop to do, since the cop is such a useful role.

lol blaming the victim

Not really much else to say, Bard and Affinity have covered things rather nicely. "I fakeclaimed to save myself" is about as anti-town as one can get, anyway.

I will need to look over Affinity's Kefit case when I'm less half-asleep. I do remember wondering vaguely about Kefit at the end of yesterday, even as good as his words were, because it slowly felt more and more to me like he had spent the whole game up to that point picking on easy targets with safe and easy cases. I might be able to buy into a Kefit case.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Serela

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Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #336 on: September 16, 2010, 01:42:01 PM »
Yeah, never really expected to not get lynched today after Kilga flipped Seer.

I briefly considered lurking so hard everyone believes I'll be modkilled and then they all vote someone else, where I then make a big post shortly before deadline to avoid modkill and survive another day. But that would probably just irritate everyone massively and then I'd just be lynched the NEXT day anyway (which could very possibly be LyLo, screwing town over even more then I already have)

There is no way in hell I'm living past today (and it would hurt town because they'd surely lynch me in LyLo) so I might as well just go ahead and ##Vote:NeoSe- well then again, what Affinity said about putting obvscum at L-1, so I guess not.

lol blaming the victim
Well if you ask a serial killer to kill you, sometimes you, y'know, get killed. Just sayin'.

But counterclaiming ensures that scum get lynched.
My point here was that I would probably be lynched shortly WITHOUT the real cop commiting suicide over it. He might have been NK'd due to simply being who I claimed as town though, so. But still ):

eh w/e

I'll probably reread and post opinions at some point during this game day, but I'll also probably take my time about doing it since I'm dead either way.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #337 on: September 16, 2010, 01:46:27 PM »
Okay wait, sorry, I misread the quotes I made in my Kefit case, so discount the point about selective scumhunting; what he said was consistent.  But okay, Kefit, if you consider 'waffling between stances on votes' not to be a scumtell, then why did you agree on Bard's case on Nobu and Nat Tea, when it was primarily made up of this waffling?  And why would you have placed them as scummier than Serela yesterday when you made your last post (e.g you said Serela was not that scummy, but you said that you agreed with the Nat Tea and Nobu equally scummy).  Again, he does not seem to have a clear hierarchy to who is scum and why; he seems to give people with the same sins to them (in his views) different opinions arbitrarily.

Dead Princess Sakana

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  • E is for Elodie, who swims with the fishes.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #338 on: September 16, 2010, 02:16:06 PM »
Since it has become a main point of the argument, here's my policy on potential roleblocking abilities:
If someone had an ability where they would not get any message about the results from the mod, they would not get a message about a potential block either.
Meaning: Since a successful Doc wouldn't get a message about their success, a roleblocked Doc wouldn't get a message either.

It seems that's not common practice and I admit I didn't think of how it might be relevant to cases in the first place, but I'm gonna stick to it. My apologies if that caused confusion.

Kilgamayan

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Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #339 on: September 16, 2010, 02:24:55 PM »
I briefly considered lurking so hard everyone believes I'll be modkilled and then they all vote someone else, where I then make a big post shortly before deadline to avoid modkill and survive another day. But that would probably just irritate everyone massively and then I'd just be lynched the NEXT day anyway (which could very possibly be LyLo, screwing town over even more then I already have)

This is not only anti-town but massively gaming the system. Scummy in both the literal AND figurative sense! Nice job.

Well if you ask a serial killer to kill you, sometimes you, y'know, get killed. Just sayin'.

Well when you don't claim someone else's role there is, y'know, zero chance they'll out themselves to scum via your own lies. Just sayin'.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Kilgamayan

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  • The Real Treasure Is You
    • Let's Play Super Marisa World
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #340 on: September 16, 2010, 03:33:49 PM »
In unrelated news, UK may not be able to get online today.

Just FAYI.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #341 on: September 16, 2010, 07:00:19 PM »
... So people don't get told they're roleblocked with an important role as Doc. ... uh, whoah, okay, just going to say that destroys my confusion over why you weren't roleblocked, although I disagree vehemently about not being honest about the results of someone's job unless bastard modding.

Sticking my vote where it is, no reason to move it.

Serela

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Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #342 on: September 16, 2010, 07:19:51 PM »
This is not only anti-town but massively gaming the system. Scummy in both the literal AND figurative sense! Nice job.
I'm also not doing it. But I thought it was an interesting concept, so I mentioned it.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Serela

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Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #343 on: September 16, 2010, 07:21:01 PM »
Unless you meant the "Nice job" part literally, in which case I totally just derped.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #344 on: September 16, 2010, 07:31:15 PM »
Entertaining one anti-town thought while acting on the other doesn't make you townie. I admit that part makes me facepalm and is less scummy to me as it is stupidly talking about scummy things you wanted to do but didn't as some sort of evidence of integrity.

Dead Princess Sakana

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Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #345 on: September 16, 2010, 07:44:18 PM »
VOTECOUNT

NeoSerela ( 2 ): Yamaneko, Bardiche
Kefit ( 1.5 ): Affinity

Not voting: UncertainKitten, NeoSerela, Kefit, Chaore

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. About 59 hours left.

Serela

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Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #346 on: September 16, 2010, 08:54:15 PM »
Bard:I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm town anymore. That's nearly hopeless at this point.

And it's not even really an integrity thing, it would doom town if scum wasn't lynched this day if I did that.

I'm of the belief at the moment that out of Affinity, Kefit, and Nobukilga, two of them are scum. This is more based on that the others I feel are town, although I wouldn't find it shocking if Bard was scum, I don't really think he is.

I dunno how to feel on Nobukilga atm although Nobu certainly looked bad (although all this stuff and aksdfjdaks so w/e), and I don't really have any particular reason to suspect Affinity, so I'll go ahead and ##Vote:Kefit. Mostly to just show my feelings although it would be p.cool if he somehow actually got lynched today. He hasn't really done a whole lot, and the people he wanted to vote are A.The two nibs and B.Nobu, which I feel was kind of easy since he was just lurkylurkybandwagoning.

<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Kefit

  • The Wild Draw Four of America
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #347 on: September 16, 2010, 11:37:21 PM »
I may have given Neo the benefit of the doubt after his claim on d2, but I sure as hell am not gonna do that now after he's switched his claim like that. The reasons for this lynch are both obvious and have already been covered by everyone, so I won't waste more time here except to say that I'm not at all impressed with his attempt to ignite the case Affinity has started against me without actually adding anything to the case.

##Vote: NeoSerela

But okay, Kefit, if you consider 'waffling between stances on votes' not to be a scumtell, then why did you agree on Bard's case on Nobu and Nat Tea, when it was primarily made up of this waffling?  And why would you have placed them as scummier than Serela yesterday when you made your last post (e.g you said Serela was not that scummy, but you said that you agreed with the Nat Tea and Nobu equally scummy).  Again, he does not seem to have a clear hierarchy to who is scum and why; he seems to give people with the same sins to them (in his views) different opinions arbitrarily.

The case against Choja was an active lurking one; the key difference between it and the case on Nobu and Neo was that Choja did not have a vote placed by the end of d1. I thought I had explained strongly enough that this lack of a vote mixed with vaporous posts was key to my thought process, rather than waffling factors, but perhaps we've had a gap in communication. Polaris and Choja both exhibited these issues, which is why I thought they were scummy and in any case needed to be gotten rid of for lack of contribution early on rather than later. I preferred the case on Polaris because I thought the evidence I pointed out here was stronger, quantitatively if not qualitatively, than the evidence presented in the case against Choja.

I liked Kilga's case against Nobu, which was composed of active lurking/lack of contribution (something I pointed out against Nobu back on d1!) plus being on the huh what wagon. However, Nobu made a strong showing on d2 with his case against Neo, which subsequently removed him from my priority list. I may not have agreed that the case against Neo was strong, but it was still bona fide contribution on Nobu's part.

You're correct in that I haven't said much about other players. This is because I have been concentrating on players I thought needed to be lynched. This is not an issue anymore since the players in question are now gone. Thus, here are my pertinent thoughts on the playerbase at the moment:

Affinity: Yeah, I mentioned yesterday that I was wary of him. I kind of feel like his continued attack on me is forcing me to repeat myself, which is annoying and perhaps overly aggressive. On the other hand, his vote on Neo until the last second yesterday does make me feel better about him - all it would have taken was one more vote on top of Affinity's to lynch scumclaiming Neo, in a situation where it was very probable that another vote could indeed land on that player. His misrep of my statements earlier today doesn't reflect too badly on him since he took it back, but it does suggest that he didn't read my posts too carefully before writing up his attack on me, which is a bit disconcerting. Overall, I'm less wary of Affinity than I was on d2 due to Choja and Kilga's flips, but I'm still not hugely fond of him.

NobuKilga: Poor d1 has been beaten to death. Started the wagon against Neo d2, and not much else. Stayed suspiciously far away from Neo's resulting claim (by which I mean he didn't comment on it at all). Still, Neo's claim would have provided a convenient excuse to switch off the wagon against Neo in the event that Nobu had started a case against fellow scum that he hadn't expected to take off. Instead, Nobu remained on Neo until the end of the day, keeping him within one vote of a lynch. NobuKilga hasn't been afraid to keep the pressure going on Neo either. Liking him a lot right now.

UK: Catfight with Bard d1, in my experience catfighting is usually an indicator of towniness, but with UK in particular I'm less inclined to rely on this, especially late in the game. The weak pokes at Kilga here, along with voting for Neo to "keep things interesting" raises my alarms, especially since UK immediately unvotes after Neo claimed. What's with the hesitance to place a solid vote on someone? UK's attack on Choja's claim via role name shenanigans also strikes me as particularly senseless. The name of the vanilla villager role had already been revealed via huhwhat's lynching - why try to make use of it in an attack? It's completely illusory. What purpose does it serve when your lynch target is already leading in number of votes? I'm seeing either filler or a gung ho attempt to draw attention away from Neo. Curious to see UK's reactions to today's flips, but I don't like her at all right now.

Chaore: Sat on the Nobu train along with Zak and Neo at the end of d1. That's a bit disconcerting, though the fact that huhwhat flipped town indicates that scum had no reason to try and counter-wagon. His case on Bardiche d2 is an alright showing, but I think it's fairly obvious that I consider lynching low/no content players on d2 to be a valid strategy so I don't agree much with the crux of the case. Additionally, the case misreps Bard's play by accusing him of railing against Prody for much of d1, when in fact Bard initially voted for Prody very early on and soon after switched his vote to Neo before ultimately ending up on huhwhat.  Aside from that case, Chaore hasn't done much but post filler both on d1 and on d2. His d2 vote was left as the singular vote against Bardiche at the end of the day, nicely avoiding any bandwagon analysis. Feeling very wary here.

Bardiche: I explained some about Bard in my blurb above about Chaore. Suffice it to say, I agree with his methodology so far (even if I preferred one target over another), and his application of this strategy has been consistent. It is unfortunate that my and Bard's cases have been shown to be on townies, but their absence from the game still results in less liabilities for town, which I view as town benefit. Of all the remaining players, I feel the best about him, since I don't see any scum intent in any of his posts so far.

Since Affinity has been bugging me so much for a hierarchy, here you go, from scummiest to least scummy: Neo >>> Chaore > UK > Affinity > NobuKilga > Bardiche. Chaore is worse than UK due to his lack of presence and the weaknesses I've pointed out in his d2 case against Bard. UK is worse than Affinity because Affinity kept the Neo wagon alive until near the end of d2.

Serela

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Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #348 on: September 17, 2010, 12:04:23 AM »
It amuses me how your analysis on NobuKilga seems completely based off how he acts towards me. Just wondering, if you were to bear with me for just a moment on the idea of me being town, how would NobuKilga look to you?

It's kind of hard to tell things like that considering I do geniunely look horrible, but at the least, it's not going to be a townie tell after you guys get my flip. And it matters more how he acted on D2, before Kilga flipped Seer and basically had me labbed obvscum.

Kefit's post also makes me feel like I need to reevalutate my logic again. Maybe Chaore isn't as good as I originally thought? Guh.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Chaore

  • Kai Ni Recipient Many Years Late
  • *
  • You Finally Did It, Kadokawa.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #349 on: September 17, 2010, 05:06:21 AM »
@Kefit: Misrep, Didn't suggest how long he had his vote on prody. (12 hours is a good deal of time by the way, not just 'soon after', So a further misrep is Prody wasn't just a few seconds vote, and he actually applied more effort into it than his Neo case after, which was followed immediately by a switch to HW.)

@Bard: Going to make content not just on the assured lynch?

Still not loving Bard, He does spend a good deal on Neo though so I'm feeling I should reconsider his case. Next up would normally be Kilga, but he not only died but flipped town. Following comes up to Kefit. Not feeling as good as I was before on him- Affinity is actually right that he reads a lot like Bard does, just with a tenth of the posts.

Other than Kefit- UK still kind of holds from Zak coming up scum, so combined with continued pressure on Neo she's looking pretty town. Nobu I removed above because I frankly want to get more of a read from Kilga's next posts, as his D2 while good was also kind of cut short by whatever sakana did. Affinity is thinking along my lines of thought which I like, but there's something about that in that I've come up wrong currently.

It is however 1 here and I'm feeling like shit. Those rereads can wait.

Dead Princess Sakana

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  • E is for Elodie, who swims with the fishes.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #350 on: September 17, 2010, 05:52:22 AM »
VOTECOUNT

NeoSerela ( 3 )  L-1: Yamaneko, Bardiche, Kefit
Kefit ( 2.5 ): Affinity, NeoSerela

Not voting: UncertainKitten, Chaore

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. About 48 hours left.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 12:08:32 PM by Moe Moe Sakatchouli »

Serela

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Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #351 on: September 17, 2010, 11:48:35 AM »
It's really irritating how all of Chaore's cases are like "BUT they went after Neo a lot so that makes them better". I understand I may look like obvscum here, but can you at LEAST wait until my flip before analyzing everyone else that way? Stop tempting me to vote myself and end the day so that you'll all stop clearing people for voting me >_>;

Also, Sakana, I voted Kefit here.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Dead Princess Sakana

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  • E is for Elodie, who swims with the fishes.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #352 on: September 17, 2010, 12:08:07 PM »
Also, Sakana, I voted Kefit here.
No you didn't. You did in the post before the one you linked, though.  :V
It would help a bit if you could place future votes on separate lines, as everyone else does it. Despite the bold, they don't stand out as much in the middle of several lines of text as you would think.

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #353 on: September 17, 2010, 01:28:50 PM »
@Serela: Because.... there's no reason to think of you as townie now with all the fakeclaiming.  Posting something on the lines of what Kefit did would make us think again very very slightly, but...

Regarding Kefit, his analysis is a good showing; though I'm interested to know what he would likely do with it in future days.  Except that most of his views on Nobu seems to be primarily on how his absence on late day seems town, but it strikes me as odd because Nobu simply wasn't there and thus shouldn't factor into his alignment.  Yes, his case on Neo was solid but seems weird to put him second based on just that, which makes me think that he might have padded that post a little too much.  However, there are enough original thoughts on Chaore and UK to balance this out.  Makes me wonder why Bardiche said that he liked her second best yesterday.  I don't agree with his thoughts on Bardiche, though.

Also please don't give obvscum the chance to hammer themselves and end the day...

And regarding that thing about his D1 and D2 scumhunting which I raised, I guess I'll stop, though I still think it's strange and a little superficial that one person is better than the other just because he voted at the end of the day, when those votes are non-functional and don't really do anything.  But that will be left for later days so...

##Unvote

---

I want Bardiche, UK and Nobu to make a vote (or pretend-vote) on someone other than Serela with some reasoning as a marker to their thoughts.  I find it irritating that Bardiche is just emptily pushing a dead horse forward without giving us a key to what he thinks about other players (e.g he only said something on Chaore while defending himself and even says that UK is second best at some point in D2 without saying how her posts have a high content:post ratio which worries me). 

UK has escaped my view in D2, but on hindsight, I find that I remember very little about her views and what she did other than pull a bandwagon analysis without gleaning anything conclusive (and since I was the swing vote to huhwhat on D1, I found it strange that she didn't comment on that).  Even her first vote on Serela doesn't seem to have the necessary flair to be substantial, and the ISO's on Chaore and people like that don't really have much explanation to them.  The jump to Nat Tea also seems like a convenient thing to do; it's what Bard said before too(though you did say that).  I agree with Kefit on the "Village Villager" terminology being rather superficial too, seeing that it was already revealed on D2.

##Vote:UK

As for Nobu, some other opinions today would be fine too.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #354 on: September 17, 2010, 02:18:14 PM »
Yeah, Serela's lying. Again. Also, thanks for telling us about what you discussed in your QT. I'm flattered to have been considered for the N2 kill ^-^.

Does that mean I'm right about Chaore too, despite the fact I can't pin anything on him :P?

Also, Kefit, really? Really? Please, you know better than this. Your case on me is terrible. Fix it.

Your best point is the role shenanigans, and you ignore the fact that, maybe, just MAYBE I could have been trying to figure out if Choja was scum for certain or not. Since even with my case I was kinda edgy on it. It didn't *click*. But whatever, what's done is done. You ALSO ignore my little fight with Zakeri...who...was scum :O.

Kefit, why are you scum? The selective attack on me is about the most terrible thing I've ever seen from you.

Lemme read the rest of your post, which I'm sure will implicate more people than there are scum, but pull back on the last minute with them and not say anything of worth.

...WRONG. Nobu did NOT start the wagon on Serela. I did

Why are you ignoring blatant fact, again? OH, right, makes your case on me look bad. Damn, that has to suck.

I agree on the D1 wagon points against Chaore. I don't actually see anything wrong with the Chaore case. We also agree on Bard town.

So, basically, a hint of fact with a web of lies. But...it was kind of obvious. Sloppy work. Who are you trying to fool?

Also, remember this a minute ago?

Quote from: UK in this very post
Lemme read the rest of your post, which I'm sure will implicate more people than there are scum, but pull back on the last minute with them and not say anything of worth.

Yep.

-------
Oh, good, Chaore sees how terrible Kefit!post is too. Chaore is only half right as well though.

Ok. I'm going to note that this point that Affinity's post was so wrong, careless, and overall terrible, not in the scum sense but in the anti-town silliness sense, that I actually had to take a 15 minute break before continuing. I'd appreciate it if both you and Kefit actually read the game so your posts didn't read like you were just making up a pile of crap to look productive. I think that's the kindliest way I can put things.

Let me try to continue...oh, that's all.

Great.

##Vote Kefit

Much as I hate to be voting with obvscum, and much as I hate to be using a burden or proficiency, I can't believe that wall came from town Kefit. It ignores a whole ton of things inconvenient to his case. I suppose you might think I'm a little audacious to assume two scum went for me and will fail, but that appears to be the case. At least it's consistent with how careless Kefit's posting was.

I'd add to it with prior stuff, but it's really unnecessary. Once again, that post alone makes him likely scum.

If I had a second Non Serela pick, it'd be Chaore based on the fact I still have a *click* on him, as I said. I can't seem to prove it but I'll try again in the future if somehow Kefit flips town.

Also, neither Kefit nor Affinity shall secure my lynch, no matter how twisted their logic is. I implore you to again, reread the game and not fulfill preconceived notions with blatant falsehood.








UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #355 on: September 17, 2010, 02:31:53 PM »
* UncertainKitten sighs.

In fact, let's do this.


Quote
UK: Catfight with Bard d1, in my experience catfighting is usually an indicator of towniness, but with UK in particular I'm less inclined to rely on this, especially late in the game. The weak pokes at Kilga here, along with voting for Neo to "keep things interesting" raises my alarms, especially since UK immediately unvotes after Neo claimed. What's with the hesitance to place a solid vote on someone? UK's attack on Choja's claim via role name shenanigans also strikes me as particularly senseless. The name of the vanilla villager role had already been revealed via huhwhat's lynching - why try to make use of it in an attack? It's completely illusory. What purpose does it serve when your lynch target is already leading in number of votes? I'm seeing either filler or a gung ho attempt to draw attention away from Neo. Curious to see UK's reactions to today's flips, but I don't like her at all right now.

1. Why even mention the catfight if it's a null tell? That's padding.

2. Why is "weakly poking kilga" at all done with scum intent? Please elaborate

3. Once again, why is unvoting Serela at all scummy when he's claimed Cop? Regardless of whether he was lying or not, some information could have been obtained, and optimally Serela would claim being roleblocked, meaning the scum COULD NOT roleblock anyone else? I don't see how this makes me look bad.

4. Context, Kefit. How did my "just to make things interesting" vote on Serela at all benefit scum, especially since my wagon anal was implying if Nobu was town, Serela was scum, and I was leaning slight Nobu town, or at least neutral?

5. Alright, you're going to need to cite this hesitance. Because I have no idea what you're talking about here. What's interesting is you don't link it like you did other supposed "facts"

6. As I said, this is your best point, but it's still weak. As I explained, Choja didn't *click*, but I was hoping I could at least make him misstep into claiming scum. Unfortunately, it didn't work because he didn't read his role PM. In fact, had I been vigilant, that would have likely proven Choja's innocence, since scum would have told him about the role names. To be fair, it DID hypothetically work on Serela, I just couldn't make full use of it at the time. In retrospect I should have wanted Serela lynched purely on his nameclaim. Mea culpa.

Either way, why is it only "filler or a gung ho attempt to lead away from Serela"? Why could it not be an attempt to absolve misgivings on the case? You set up a false dichotomy.

I think that should take care of it. Now for Affinity.

Quote from: Affinity
UK has escaped my view in D2, but on hindsight, I find that I remember very little about her views and what she did other than pull a bandwagon analysis without gleaning anything conclusive (and since I was the swing vote to huhwhat on D1, I found it strange that she didn't comment on that).  Even her first vote on Serela doesn't seem to have the necessary flair to be substantial, and the ISO's on Chaore and people like that don't really have much explanation to them.  The jump to Nat Tea also seems like a convenient thing to do; it's what Bard said before too(though you did say that).  I agree with Kefit on the "Village Villager" terminology being rather superficial too, seeing that it was already revealed on D2.

1. To be honest, the HW wagon was kinda weird. But more importantly I figured (correctly) the true rival wagons of the day were Nobu/Serela. Please note part of my vote regarding Serela was based in that. I also would not be surprised by Chaore scum due to the way the votes shook out but...Kefit is...ugh.

2. My ISOs were weak because there wasn't a lot to comment on. To be fair, I probably left out some of my thoughts because it was hard to explain them. I do not see how my vote on Serela was at all bad given the preceding analysis.

3. Again, already explained. All I can say is, how is it the scummy thing to do? Convenient, perhaps, though creating an ISO is kinda a pain in the ass way to do things *conveniently*.

I don't understand your cases at all at this point. They don't even look like they're trying to find scum, just a series of weird things you can string together into something that looks good on paper but doesn't work with facts. Also, notice the differences between Kefit and Affinity's analyses. Kefit pads his with things that aren't scummy, and he even says they aren't. In fact, he tries to dissolve a (supposed) town tell to implicate me. Affinity generally sticks with what can implicate me, and overall has a more townie feel to his case.


Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #356 on: September 17, 2010, 03:19:16 PM »
Okay, basing a case on Kefit completely on one post is not really good enough even though you claim it to be.  It already sounds as if you're voting someone just because they said something bad about you; even if you might not think the reasons decent.  It also makes all the bandwagon analysis you did yesterday and stuff like that seem rather strange if just one post against you can make you think they are scum, but... oh well.  Would like some kind of backing to it based on past day actions if possible.  I don't agree with the thing about trying to trick Choja into claiming scum (he's no prody), but alright, I understand why you voted Serela yesterday (though I've to admit it took a little time to see the link).  One thing, however, is that you didn't really press Serela for content and you didn't consider his posts very much in your conclusion yesterday, which I've to say is slightly scummy.  Will come back the next day; it's a little messy now.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #357 on: September 17, 2010, 03:23:42 PM »
Actually, not considering Serela due to the cop claim also makes sense. Since I wasn't going to touch him that day.

I'll find more on Kefit after I catch up with the internet, but I'll remind you I caught Zakeri with one post. It's less attacking my attackers and more attacking the attackers with a case presented scummily. Note I still think you're town because of the way you presented your case.

At any rate, actually, I didn't expect to have another situation where someone would one post themselves, so I don't see how this is inconsistent with hunting for scum through bandwagon analysis...


UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #358 on: September 17, 2010, 05:00:07 PM »
OK, let's go now.

First post doesn't really say much, but rather succinctly covers the game. Doesn't really strike me as town or scum.

For obvious reasons this looks bad in retrospect. Since, yanno, Bard and I were right.

Ok, here's the issue. I think this post looks bad. I realize townies can be wrong. What bugs me is the soft attack on Nobu when evidence is suggesting that either Nobu or Serela is scum, but not both. So it strikes me as a soft defense of Serela. Problem is, that's also a little contrived, so I'm not sure if I can really use that.

This is also intriguing, obviously because of the defense of Serela in favor of voting derp town, yet again. But, what's REALLY interesting is that Kefit is castigating me for unvoting Serela, yet he, himself states that the night actions will show things about Serela's claim!!

Anyway, I've already stating my opinions on Kefit's post that claims scum, even if he doesn't use the words :P.

Overall, I think Kefit's ISO less shows scum intent (outside of shielding Serela several times. What the hell was that?), but more a lack of town intent, which, for a player like Kefit is...ah...kinda bad.

What strikes me also as interesting is how quickly Affinity dropped the Kefit case. What changed?


Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Werewolf Mafia ~ Let the Hunt begin - D3
« Reply #359 on: September 17, 2010, 06:43:25 PM »
@Chaore: Going to make any opinions on the "assured lynch"? :V

I telegraphed my suspicions yesterday. Little has changed between now and then except that Chaore's continued waffling and his latest post reading like a lot of vague alignment attributions based on the Serela case which must be obvious scum. Except he has, until now, lended no ounce of support for it and yes, even criticised me over even suggesting Serela was scummy.

In fact. ##UNVOTE
##VOTE: Chaore


Tunnel on Serela? Why, yes. There is a ludicrously ridiculous amount of insane gambitry and derp involved in Serela. But I'm willing to overlook that, because you know, it's all derp and I don't know whether Serela is a Town on a Descending Slope of OhGodWhathaveyoudone?! or scum with what must be the worst possible plan ever that may or may not rely on it being so terrible it is ridiculous.

And while I am absolutely willing to lose to plans so crazy they can't exist, I am a little less willing to let slide Chaore's lackluster scum hunting, consisting at present mostly of vague "I don't like your attitude" allegiations raised against Kefit and I, vague and hazy commendations of who must be town but may be scum, and altogether very little decisive input on any of the wagons formed in the past.

Chaore's neatly kept off the wagon in the previous day by holding his vote uselessly because it was clear no one was interested in pursuing his venue. More effort or at least a better use of his efforts seemed a logical step, and yet this process does not exist to any great spirit, neither yesterday nor today. Proclaiming someone is scummy and yet withholding any and all zeal to actually get that person lynched, or bring their ludicrous lies to light seems lazy, unmotivated and completely lackluster.

Between Derp2Max and the lazy scumhunt, I'll take my gambles with the latter, because as I said right now I have been thinking and my God does Serela's plan have to be one of massive gambits and crazy that, damnit, if it really is a scum ploy I think a little success would be well-deserved considering the abyssmal rates of success.