Maribel Quest Followthrough - A Z-Machine Adventure

[communist unity (comm-unity)]

Yeah, the fact that it'll knock us out for too long is the only issue. Unless there's a way to advert or bypass it for a temporary amount of time. Renko's benefactor does have a secret weapon, and Renko doesn't strike me as the type to walk into a suicide mission. There has to be something that's being hidden from us.

[Kilgamayan]

I don't want to attack her directly. I want to get in her way and make sure she takes the first shot.

Looking back at the conversation, though, if you think you can argue that warning the mansion was not betraying her trust, then go for it.

[DracoOmega]

I think that nearly any way we interfere is going to cause relationship issues, and we're going to have to accept that, unless we honestly want to let her succeed at this. Unless, of course, we really can expose and nullify Koishi before any of this happens. I guess, I figure that if we avert the situation, our warning won't have hurt anything in the end, and if we don't avert it, we'll still be trying to interfere directly, and will be causing problems, anyway, so the warning would also not really make it a lot worse

[Kilgamayan]

I expect relationship issues short of direct outside influence, yes, but we can minimize the damage by forcing Renko to make the first move, because we will have done nothing but defend ourselves. The most important thing to get across is that we never stopped caring. If Renko is the one that breaks the bond of friendship and we repair it by forgiving her post-battle, I think things will be okay. If we break it, no matter who is in the right, we'll need Renko to fix it, and she will be in no mood to do so.

I think this is the lesson Utsuho Quest was supposed to teach us. Not everything is black and white, and the more we simply barge in with our own ideals and dickwave our might the harder things will be, both during AND after the fight. Look at how those that remember treat Utsuho now, because she didn't stop and think about the long-term ramifications.

[DracoOmega]

If we let her make the first move, how can we also be defending ourselves, unless we're actually at the SDM at the time, which is tantamount to taking their side in the first place. What are you proposing?

And I don't think it's a fair equivalent to compare this to the issue in Okuu Quest. There, Kanako actually had some good points. But what about Renko's plan to take over someone's house just because it's shiny and because she can is even remotely justifiable?

[Kilgamayan]

It doesn't matter whether or not Renko's plan is justifiable, because she's our friend, and she can use that to her advantage to wreck us post-battle should we be the aggressor. Ideally, what I would do is wait for her to start her planned march and then just physically insert ourselves between her and the mansion at whatever distance the two of us happen to be. We're not going to attack, but we're not going to move, either. Force her to make the choice between her mansion and her friend. The latter would solve everything, and the former puts the tools to repair the broken friendship in our hands, not hers.

I was thinking about this while brushing my teeth. I think we can get away with warning the SDM if we do our best to play it like we didn't after it's done. Straight-up deny it if ever asked, and feed Meiling a story that she can reproduce if ever questioned - something like "The Scarlet Devil Mansion is always on the alert!" or something equally full of bravado. Set it up so the only way Renko would ever find out we warned them is if Koishi told her, and if Koishi is indeed behind everything then all bets are off anyway so we don't have to care about who throws the first punch.

[Hello Purvis]

E mouse2000: Also: Just forward this message to the debate. "Don't fuck this up, you clunks."

Parser's Note: There are multiple solutions planned with multiple levels of satisfaction for various parties. Always presume this~

[DracoOmega]

I guess we just have a difference of opinion whether the justifiable-ness of the plan matters or not. I personally feel that, friend or not, her actions justify our response. A person can't be let to get away with things just because they're a friend. But it mightn't matter in the end.

I don't see how putting ourself physically in her way will matter, though. Couldn't they just simply move around us? Remember, there'll be hundreds of them. And even if she does nothing to us, the faeries just might.

[Kilgamayan]

Right now I don't care if the rest of the world hates us after all is said and done, Priority One for me is salvaging this friendship. I don't want a repeat of Utsuho/Koishi. >_>

EDIT: The fairies won't go on the move if she doesn't tell them to. She's proud of this army and she wants to lead it. And I get the sneaking suspicion that she wouldn't trust the fairies to do the job all by themselves anyway. Too many variables: no guarantee they succeed, no guarantee they even all make it there without getting distracted by the latest shiny passing by, and no guarantee they'll just hand the mansion over to her once she's done with us.

The thing about how much justifiability matters is that it's all well and good for us maybe but it's not going to stop someone else that thinks what they did was justified. Utsuho felt all her actions were justified and acted accordingly, and she has a broken family and a couple of angry goddesses to show for it. Do you really want to risk losing Renko for who-knows-how-long just because we're hellbent on "proving" moral superiority? (Because we did just a marvelous job proving moral superiority in Utsuho Quest. >_>)

[DracoOmega]

I didn't mean the faeries would march ahead without her, but that they might just try to attack us for being in the way, and she mightn't be able to stop them.

I guess I feel that Renko is much more wrong here than Suwako and Kanako were in Okuu Quest. And I guess that, as much as I wouldn't like it, if the choice came down to supporting Renko in this, or losing her friendship, I'd be forced to choose the latter. And sometimes people just won't listen when you try to tell them you're not justified. You can't allow people to do whatever they want just because they might be angry if you tried to stop them. It's not about 'proving' moral superiority or anything else to her. It's about stopping something we (or at least I) feel is wrong.

[Hello Purvis]

E mouse2000: The ultimate thing to look for would be alternative solutions that satisfy the underlying motives/desires of everyone/as-many-as-possible involved without hurting too many others. I don't know enough about the circumstances to really say more, but...
E mouse2000: Ask why someone wants what they say they do...

[Kilgamayan]

We can stop that wrong without costing us her friendship, though. I'm certainly not saying we should let her run roughshod over the SDM. That definitely needs to be stopped. if we're the aggressor in that situation, though, it will cost us that friendship, whereas if she's the aggressor, it won't. She will have been the one to take the anti-friendship action, and we can forgive that after all is said and done, because either she went nuts with power (which we've been told is not uncommon and have heard directly from a victim of such that she appreciated what was done for her) or because someone was manipulating her. In either case, it wasn't really her doing all this.

I'm not afraid of the fairy army going after us. Renko will want to talk things out with us; our being there at all presents her another opportunity to win us over to her side. If the fairies ignore her and assault us anyway, then either she comes to our rescue, which confirms the friendship (or at least turns her against the fairy army once it becomes obvious they'll be taking the mansion for themselves and not her), or she goes on without us, which would be enough of a gesture that I'd consider it the opening move.

EDIT: You know, I wonder if Lemon Drop is a part of this army. So much for "no good squads".

EDIT 2: On the subject of "asking someone why they want something", I don't trust Renko to give us any sort of straight answer, I don't trust the fairies to give us any sort of sensible answer, and we don't have easy access to the mysterious benefactor, so.

[DracoOmega]

I think you consider what will cost us the friendship too binary. I don't think taking the first action is guaranteed to cost us the friendship. (Actually I don't think it's even considerably more likely than some variants of taking second-action) If she does indeed regret her actions later (following the pattern explained to us), she will probably understand why we tried to stop her. Utsuho even suggested that she might be grateful for that.


As for the motivations point that E-mouse mentions:

Well, Renko says she wants this both as a combination of: 'it's a nice house and it would be cool to live there', and 'look at what I can do'. Whether there's something deeper down there.... I don't know.
Koisihi's motivations, if she's indeed involved, seem pretty inscrutable to me, other than 'it seemed interesting'. It will probably be hard to find out more without actually speaking with her.
I'm not sure what to do about satisfying either of those directly, though, to be honest

[Kilgamayan]

I might think that way too, but Utsuho/Koishi is staring us in the face as a counterexample.

If you really think we should strike first, then do it, but I simply cannot condone such an action.

[Doll.S CUBE]

Just do what Orin did for Utsuho, it seems to have worked for her.

[DracoOmega]

Keep in mind that Koishi was estranged from them even before Okuu quest.

I'm not really planning to strike first, unless you count warning the SDM as striking first. I certainly don't intend to go up and shoot her or something.

As for taking action, I'd like to explore the Koishi possibility before anything else (other than possibly that warning).

[Kilgamayan]

Koishi was estranged, but she still cared about them. (Theoretically.)

I've already stated my piece on warning the SDM.

[Doll.S CUBE]

You know, it might not be Koishi at all, you don't really need to manipulate the sub-conscious to manipulate someone. Maybe it's some other Mysterious Benefactor. 

[DracoOmega]

I just wish we had some idea how much time we have to be running around before this happens....

As for your remarks about giving that warning, I'm not sure I understand the bit about giving Meiling a cover story. (And I'd like to make sure I get it, in case I end up being the one to try it) We've already told Renko that we'd been to the mansion, so just because Meiling recognizes us, or admits we were there doesn't blow any sort of cover. And whatever preparations the SDM crew make for stopping this aren't likely to involve extra people waiting by the gate, anyway. Just maybe Patchy will have appropriate spells prepared, Flandre will be safely sequestered away where she can't do any harm, Sakuya not busy with other tasks, etc. None of which should be obvious to Renko

[Kilgamayan]

I mean give her a cover story so Meiling doesn't go "We've been expecting you! Maribel told us you might be coming!" We don't want anyone at the SDM letting it slip that we warned them, so we should give them an alternate explanation for why they're prepared for war.

[DracoOmega]

I figured either Patchy or Sakuya is the better one to explain that to, anyway. Both seem quite capable of discretion, and probably already know how to manage Meiling.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

references to "Okuu Quest," which I basically ignored

*facedesk* And I thought this was convoluted. I am fucking outta here at the first sign that this gets even worse.

[Doll.S CUBE]

So anyone taking my suggestions?

[DracoOmega]

So anyone taking my suggestions?

Well, what Orin did for Utsuho was essentially get other people to go beat her up. Warning the SDM is essentially similar to this.
And I realize that Koishi may not be involved, but I'm not sure what we can do differently if someone else is involved. Either Renko has her own mind, in which case she needs to be shown the error of her ways, or she doesn't, in which case the person doing the manipulation needs to be straightened out. If people are manipulating her without magic, it's still essentially case 1, here.

[Doll.S CUBE]

I go for the warning, we can't exactly let her do something she'll regret later, especially when the SDM retaliates if she succeeds.

[Rin Kagamine]

> Fly back towards the Underground for now.
> If we have our Purple Dress, change into that.  The less recognizable we are to the fairies the better. 
> If we don't have our Purple Dress, quickly move back to the Palace and change into one of Orin's old dresses.

[Rin Kagamine]

If Renko is so confident that her fairy army can overtake the mansion, no matter who's inside, then why not tell her that we warned the mansion straight out, and feed her some line about how it'll give her a chance to really prove her might since "anyone can win a sneak attack, but to go into a battle with your enemy expecting you and still prevail shows supreme skill" or something.

Then you might be able to get her to hold off on the siege until the next day.  Or hell, even if we don't tell her about the warning, say she should wait until the next day anyway, since then the vampires will be asleep and significantly less powered than at night.  That way we'd have a free night and can undergo the power boost, since Byakuren said one night would be sufficient.

Also, we need to tell Kanako at some point that we no longer need to look for Renko.  Also, considering that Kanako just worked with Koishi, she should hae a good grasp about what Koishi is capable of and whether or not this seems like something she would do.  Total long shot, but we might get her to look for Koishi for us like she would for Renko.

[MysTeariousYukari]

I'm kinda liking Vic Viper's idea here. it is risky, but it could work for us, pending on how much Renko wants to show her skills compared to wanting the Manion. Risky, but can work.

[DracoOmega]

It's an interesting idea, but I'm still dubious about telling Renko directly. She's probably see it as antagonism, even if she's still confident enough to try. And I doubt it'll get them to hold off, considering that she seems to think time is of the essence, in terms of holding the faeries together, and I suspect they'll go when their benefactor gets back with their secret weapon, in either case. I don't know that we could convince her to wait for anything, actually. The entire point of telling her, from how to explain it, is to delay their attack, correct?

I do, however, think that asking Kanako is a good idea, and was one of a couple angles for exposing Koishi that I was planning to explore.

[Rin Kagamine]

I think there are a few advantages to taking that sort of action.  Namely, I think it'll give better insight to who is behind it.  If Renko is actually mad with power, and concocted the plan herself, we should be able to pitch it in such a way to get her to go along with it, and maybe get her to grant permission to inform the SDM.  OR!  In pitching the idea of waiting, seeing how she reacts.  If she refuses to bend or adapt her plans, or to even consider changing them, then it should be more obvious that someone else is behind it.  If it's her idea, she should be more open to at least considering other things.

Far as the fairies losing interest, we can cross that bridge later.  Maybe giving them another activity in the meantime, like a recruitment drive or constructing a pointless fortress in the forest.  Not sure, but just throwing that out there.

More importantly, we need to ditch the miko outfit and either try to pass off as Yukari or take a different dress.  Personally, I think an old dress of Orin's should be the best choice.