Author Topic: Spellcards  (Read 7157 times)

Sejha

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Spellcards
« on: August 10, 2010, 01:22:46 AM »
Well here goes.

We all know that Reimu instituted the Spell Card system and rules that define it. But one thing has never really been explained.

How do spellcards work? (as in the mechanics of making a spellcard)

Any theories?
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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2010, 01:23:53 AM »
Fucking spellcards, how do they work.

More seriously, I was going to say "they print the pattern on the card, I guess", then it occurred to me they could just shoot that danmaku off without a card.

I'm stumped.

Hello Purvis

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2010, 01:56:32 AM »
And, the question that plagues many a parser.

I prefer to think they are essentially danmaku patterns written ahead of time that are either too complex for the user to normally pull off, or that confer some extra benefits (Defense, some moments of immunity, and so on)

My pondering is where or not bombs are an abstraction of a charater whipping out their own big pattern, or represent a kind of burst mode that lasts only a bit, but is stupid powerful. I lean toward the former.

Ryuu

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2010, 02:05:36 AM »
My pondering is where or not bombs are an abstraction of a charater whipping out their own big pattern, or represent a kind of burst mode that lasts only a bit, but is stupid powerful. I lean toward the former.

It's been a while since I read it, but iirc danmaku battles are separated into Shrine Maiden side and Youkai side, where the Youkai uses complex patterns as spellcards and the Shrine Maiden uses bombs as spellcards. Or something.

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2010, 02:07:34 AM »
I would where would this leave the youkai in IN and the like?

Source that if you could?

Ryuu

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2010, 02:27:17 AM »
I would where would this leave the youkai in IN and the like?

Source that if you could?

I thought it was in this, but I guess it's not. That thought might be the result of me and a friend talking about Touhou too much, so I wouldn't put too much weight on it.

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Neonie

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2010, 02:37:54 AM »
I'll tell you how spell cards work when you explain to me the entire process of how the metal mechanical parts of a computer are able to render image on a screen threw a small black wire. 

Sejha

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2010, 02:40:37 AM »
The page Ryuu links to is interesting, but doesn't really answer the question. It does bring up the idea that a Youkai helped make the rules.

...
Yukari anyone?

Perhaps, it is really occuring like in PoFV, when the player uses a bomb it occurs as if it were a full spellcard, just one without a timer. As to why the player is oneshot versus a boss with a lifebar...? Could be that the player merely has very low health for their non-spell.

As to the actuall mechanics of spellcards... Still stumped.

Also, @ Neonie...

Good point.
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Formless God

Re: Spellcards
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2010, 02:41:01 AM »

Re: Spellcards
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2010, 03:12:20 AM »
I always wondered how people that never knew Reimu (Like everyone from SA) knows how to use spellcards..

Re: Spellcards
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2010, 03:25:15 AM »
I always wondered how people that never knew Reimu (Like everyone from SA) knows how to use spellcards..
I'd say Byakuren's even worse, but yeah.

My stance is that Spell Cards are just "really cool and powerful danmaku-patterns that take a little extra juice to start up," and they've always been around, it's just that Reimu's the one who made them into rules. And she always wins, so the issue of regulating "things you're not allowed to do to the loser" never comes up.

Sabino

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2010, 03:35:40 AM »
Check the first translated part from Wikipedia

From my understanding, they're only pacts that say "I'm gonna use this in this duel." and how they disperse those colorful bullets on your screen has nothing too significant to do with the cards. (This would make sense for Byakuren since all she needed to was to have names of her moves and a pact for every move that she was going to use.)

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2010, 04:23:10 AM »
I'm going to kill you with *these* pretty patterns. If you beat all my pretty patterns, I lose. K?

That's pretty much how I see it. It's a duel regulated by the cards, but they probably don't require any extra effort to use or anything of the sort. Danmaku is danmaku.

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Lord Phantasm Satori

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2010, 06:16:30 AM »
ZUN, the god of gensyoko, declared that all complex danmaku must have a name and card to go with it. Reimu, having heard this from him, declared the rule using the vampire incident as an excuse. the pc-98 cast didn't want to use it, and petered out of into the background...

Azure Lazuline

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2010, 06:23:18 AM »
I think they're basically the equivalent of a spellbook. The user thinks up a pattern, writes it down, then somehow either activates it or just recites the spell. I also think that, in reality, the battles wouldn't take place exactly like they do in the games (separated into two sides) - both would be even, using complex patterns like the boss does. It's just different for the player character in the games because that makes for better gameplay.

Hello Purvis

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2010, 06:23:53 AM »
Byakuren clearly developed the system independently.

What the hell else did she have to do in there?

Lord Phantasm Satori

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2010, 06:40:26 AM »
fight shinki. that explains one of her spell cards.

ArteShy

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2010, 08:38:24 AM »
I think that spellcards are type of stronger Danmaku that can't be done by magic. But there are different types of magic. For example, Marisa uses Hakkero to fire master spark. But i think that spellcards like honest man's death are shooted from hand or something else. I've always wondered why Marisa and Reimu use these orbs/hakkeros or something and are not using spellcards.

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2010, 08:42:37 AM »
Or maybe Hakurei spellcards Like "Spirit Sign~Fantasy Seal" are usable more than one time and are given from mother to daughter. I wish for a touhou multiplayer game where there is more kinds of bombs and spellcards.

Neonie

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2010, 12:38:50 PM »
If your going to discuss danmaku spellcards, what about the move set spell cards in the fighting games? Those don't make Danmaku patterns, they do various things depending on what type of class it is. Even if you figure out how the danmaku spell cards work, you have about three or four more classes of spell cards you have to delve into afterwards.

While you guys are at it, you should also probably figure out how exactly Reimus charms work in actually hurting enemies and not just giving them slightly irritating paper cuts, causing a minor inconvenience.

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2010, 01:06:48 PM »
I see just how Muffin described it. Even though the rule of "Hard/Lunatic cards must have different names than the Easy/Normal cards" is kinda outdated.

Myschi

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2010, 06:12:36 PM »
If your going to discuss danmaku spellcards, what about the move set spell cards in the fighting games? Those don't make Danmaku patterns, they do various things depending on what type of class it is. Even if you figure out how the danmaku spell cards work, you have about three or four more classes of spell cards you have to delve into afterwards.

While you guys are at it, you should also probably figure out how exactly Reimus charms work in actually hurting enemies and not just giving them slightly irritating paper cuts, causing a minor inconvenience.

I could see the charms causing pain with enchantments placed on them. I mean, something has to be there to distinguish them, for lack of better phrasing, from ordinary pieces of paper. However, whether this pain is youkai-specific (an anti-youkai enchantment), or not (a 'go-hurt-people-who-need-beaten-up' enchantment)... That, I'm not so sure about. Probably the latter, though.

Ayuka

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2010, 06:16:05 PM »
I could see the charms causing pain with enchantments placed on them. I mean, something has to be there to distinguish them, for lack of better phrasing, from ordinary pieces of paper. However, whether this pain is youkai-specific (an anti-youkai enchantment), or not (a 'go-hurt-people-who-need-beaten-up' enchantment)... That, I'm not so sure about. Probably the latter, though.
If I'm not mistaken, they're seals which are enchanted to defeat evil spirits, and by extension youkai. Of course, this is ZUN's world so things could be completely different.

Myschi

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2010, 06:38:58 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, they're seals which are enchanted to defeat evil spirits, and by extension youkai. Of course, this is ZUN's world so things could be completely different.

Seals! That's the word. And yeah, that makes sense; I guess Reimu could also enchant them to just be all-purpose spiritual/physical damaging devices (because Marisa... ... Sakuya... ... do you ever go against any other humans? Well, they clearly aren't youkai. Not sure where Lunarians fit into the 'human/youkai/etc' bit). So yeah, it seems like modifying the seal to just be a generic 'beat people up' seal would work better for Reimu.

But I'm getting way off topic! I actually like Muffin's writeup of the spell card system, and agree with Azure Lazuline about how both sides would use complex patterns and whatnot. Just not doable (easily, anyway) in-game, so we get to fire stuff and use spellcards as bombs. Gameplay/story segregation, if you will.

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2010, 07:19:31 PM »
The player has a nonspell with an infinite timer, so it can't be timed out. But it has an HP of... 1.
The bomb is simply a survival spell that lasts four seconds on average. But it also has an auxiliary ability of repelling enemy bullets. Most of the time.

Or, it could be like PoFV, only both the player and boss are permanently fighting each others boss. When you deplete the boss's nonspell on your side, it's the equivalent of you forcing the boss to use a bomb on their side. Therefore clearing bullets from their side and forcing you to go through a spellcard.

When you use your bomb, it creates a spellcard on the boss's side called Player Sign "Solid Wall" that the boss can't avoid, thus allowing it to charge up its next attack faster.

In addition, this also means that when the boss is on their last life, they get their gauge filled up to the max, which they immediately use and hence we get cards like "Legendary Flying Object".

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2010, 08:45:30 PM »
Player-side mechanics are gameplay abstractions; Reimu's actually doing the exact same thing out there that the youkai are doing. Also, when the boss reaches the end of a nonspell and activates a spellcard, that's actually a deathbomb.

As for the nature of the cards themselves, I'm thinkin' Clow Cards.

Sejha

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2010, 02:40:57 AM »
I think they're basically the equivalent of a spellbook. The user thinks up a pattern, writes it down, then somehow either activates it or just recites the spell. I also think that, in reality, the battles wouldn't take place exactly like they do in the games (separated into two sides) - both would be even, using complex patterns like the boss does. It's just different for the player character in the games because that makes for better gameplay.

I was all for this, but then Muffin.

Okay, for me this problem is pretty much solved.
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neosaver

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2010, 04:09:28 PM »
I'll try to explain my theory:

-you have a normal card, with nothing on it,
-you insert magic inside it (and this what is difficult to understand, let's just say that the magic you insert in the card depends on your wisdom/nature/will and some things, that might also give an element to the card, for example, Aya is extremely fast, and is a bird somehow, so the magic she put inside is based on the wind element and has the shape of a whirlwind, or a fast cutting wind)
-when you want to use it, you do some incantation, or just concentrate, in IaMP, when someone uses a card, they just seem to concentrate without saying any incantation, so they unleash the magic inside it.

That the way I see things, everyone in Gensokyo can create his/her own card due to "basic" cards (with nothing on it) they can buy somewhere (I suppose, they don't fall from heaven) and the person who bought the card can tranform it into a weapon assuming this person possess magic (this is why patchouli got more spellcards in EoSD compared to the others, due to her knowlegde about elements and possesses natural ability to use magic, otherwise, because she seems cold, she would just use ice type magic.

Cirno has a hot temper, so if she uses a magic, it would be fire, but here, we assume cirno has an element, she is an ice fairy, she can't change her condition, so she used only ice, also, notice that she generally uses ice picks, or ice stings, that might explain her personnality.

Also, to summon more strong magic, in IaMP again, the character must sacrifice other cards to launch the attack, this is why I say the cards contain magic, because the character has his own limits, and can only use a certain amount of magic at a time, so the character liberates tth magic of others card to have the amount of magic necessary to launch the spell.

Another thing: if you store magic inside a card, will the magic remain until you use it or will it stay forever inside the card?
For example, Marisa stores magic in a card for a Master Spark, then she let the card there and makes another tomorrow, and the same scenario for about one year let's say, so she ends up with 365 Master Sparks (assuming she got enough "basic" cards).
Because there are magic inside the cards, she is free to just concentrate and use the 365 Sparks one after another, but of course that's not logic, because:

-if the magic was ONLY inside the spellcard, the winner would be the one having more spellcards than the other character, so if Cirno has 999 spellcards and Utsuho has 666 spellcards for example, Cirno wins, assuming they have the same level.
Then the cards becomes useless, and the owner must "create" other cards.

-If now, the user uses his OWN magic to use the power whithin the spellcard, it is more logical: Imagine Cirno got 1 spellcard and Utsuho got 1 spellcard too, Utsuho can use her magic more often and she wins, because she is more powerful, assuming the power of a god is superior than the power of a fairy :D, of course, in this situation, the fighters will end up tired, because they use thier own energy to attack.
Here, the cards don't become useless, the owner can use them during an illimited period, because the power in the card remains, it is the owner, while using his magic, who "converts" the energy in that card and summons a spell.

so:

Magic coming from the owner + energy in the card = spell.



TO SUMMARISE (aka TL;DR)

-a spellcard is a the beginning empty,
-the owner of the empty card create a "code" depending of his will/mind/wisdom/personnality...,
-the card is created,
-the owner must use his own magic to convert the "code" into the spell.

This is also why we only see the Touhou characters with a few speccards on them, if they were planning to go on a dangerous and long trip, they would take plenty of them, and that won't be convenient (even if a card in light, it is possible to travel with more than 1000 cards on you in a bag for example).



Here, all done.

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In construction.

Re: Spellcards
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2010, 05:50:06 PM »
Hmm

Thinking about it's use, I guess that every game on it's own has it's duel mechanics...

Wich are:

-ShooterXDodger (EoSD, PCB, etc)
-DodgerXDodger (PoFV, and with some changes here and there, PoDD)

Maybe when you meet someone you never knew and they burst danmaku out...  Maybe because this person wants to be a shooter and you are allowing them?

In fightning games you just use your spellcards a different way...
Although Marisa's Blazing Star in DS is pretty much like the same in IaMP/SWR, although it has no stars and it doesn't stop unless you do something... D:

And about the big quote over here, just a thing I want to state that I read; the number of spellcards you use has to be pre-determined.


Drake

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Re: Spellcards
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2010, 05:59:24 PM »
I think you're ignoring the fact that the cards are just used in duels, where the number of cards that can be used has been previously agreed upon. Not everyone goes to the Shrine Maiden to obtain said cards, and people like Byakuren obviously haven't had any time to obtain them. I personally think the cards are just pieces of paper with a name and pattern drawn on; utterly useless themselves. This is the reason people who haven't dueled before still possess spellcards; the other combatant just gives them some paper so they can explain their part of the duel. In IaMP and SWR, this is why the opponent sees your spellcards beforehand as well, and why you always have to declare the spellcard.

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