Labyrinth of Touhou 5F

[AlexX Unlimited]

What.

Also keep in mind this was back when the game was first introduced... Remember, at this point everyone agreed there was no legitimate reason to use Minoriko over Sanae (unlike now, where most argue the opposite), Wriggle's poison was useless and she was only effective as a semi-tank, and that Alice was too good.

[Ghaleon]

What.
I have and it works, but I'd rather have speed buffs in most cases.  Faster healers and buffers compensating for everyone having a glass cannon build is pretty useful, and I'm pretty sure speed buffs affect SP regen when switched out.

It does. honestly the hp/sp regen while switched out I miss most actually. Speedier buffers not so much because it also means your buffs decay faster too (not cuz the buffers themselves are speedier, but you know what I mean). This isn't really counterproductive at ALL for atk based buffs, but the def ones it's a little setback. Speed buffing overall is a plus so I'm not saying it hurts you because of that, but I think it kind of cancels out "faster buffs" somewhat.

Also keep in mind this was back when the game was first introduced... Remember, at this point everyone agreed there was no legitimate reason to use Minoriko over Sanae (unlike now, where most argue the opposite), Wriggle's poison was useless and she was only effective as a semi-tank, and that Alice was too good.

don't forget:
"lolol you have to grind 20+ levels before you fight Alice, and 50+ levels before you fight 12f boss".

lawl...

[Garlyle]

Marisa.  I've never seen Master Spark do enough damage to make it worth having a character in the party that can only attack once.  Her other spells aren't anything special, though decent for clearing trash.

Really?

The thing about Marisa is that after her initial full-SP master spark, she doesn't need to recharge back to maximum to do serious damage again (If her magic is boosted, it'll still be doing huge damage even at minimum SP).  And she's got such a huge SP pool that with a tiny bit of SP recovery rate boosting, that'll be very shortly.

Because she has some of the worst stats in the game on her own, Grand Patriot's Elixer only succeeds in putting her on par with everyone else.

No matter how much I buff Reisen Discarder always seemed to do 0 damage (except for one random time it did a surprising amount of damage to the 16F boss). I think Reisen is really just that weak.

Eh... I'm not so sure of that.  I haven't even put much in the way of stat points into her, and yet she'd have MAG stat getting close to Patchouli's and SPD outmatching Aya's when she's got Grand Patriot's going, and the thing is she can do that fast.  Really fast.  If I was to put the skill points into her, I don't doubt I'd be happy with the results.

And, uh...you don't have Sakuya or Aya on the team?  Really? :x  I have a hard time understanding how people can play without speed buffers, getting more turns in against bosses is an indispensable ability imo (until the later floors when everyone's speed is so high it hardly matters, but we aren't exactly talking about that right now :V)

I hate using both of them personally.  In return I use Cirno whenever a boss is even moderately vulneurable to debuffs for the purpose of spiking and holding them down at -50% Speed as much as possible.  Also Kaguya.

I'm not using Aya because I'm using Chen, and it was pretty much agreed you should use one or the other.

I don't think that's true, but I don't think you'd wanna use Aya's buffing on Chen.  Why?  Chen's rapid-fire turn nature would burn through those buffs really fast, and I don't think it'd make a huge difference due to the way speed works.

Random foes should not be living long enough for debuffs to matter, and against bosses only like two has it work on them...

The hell you talking about?  Debuffs work on a lot of stuff; hell, even if the boss has 80% debuff resistance, if it's being hit by the five different kinds of debuffs all at once, chances are something is going to stick, and each one that does is an advantage in your favour.

Remember, at this point everyone agreed there was no legitimate reason to use Minoriko over Sanae (unlike now, where most argue the opposite)

I never saw this happen, ever.

Any time it actually came up to compare them, people argued in favour of Minoriko.  And keep in mind, I've been following this since before it even had an english patch.


EDIT: Also, I'm totally going to start a playthrough under some... special... conditions.  8D

[Esoterica]

I hate using both of them personally.  In return I use Cirno whenever a boss is even moderately vulneurable to debuffs for the purpose of spiking and holding them down at -50% Speed as much as possible.

I'm not sure why I didn't think of this.  Boss at -50% speed would comparatively be everyone else at 100% speed...

Though, I did get a lot of speed debuffs out of Komachi when I used to use her, among other useful ailments.

I never saw this happen, ever.

Any time it actually came up to compare them, people argued in favour of Minoriko.

Let me put it this way; I didn't pick Sanae just because I like her more as a character.

Anyway, just ragequit the 18F boss fight after he opened up by targetting patchy in the back row with a 5000-damage regular attack.  Giving serious thought to starting another playthrough as a distraction, because the other playthrough I have sitting at 5f just has more glass cannon builds.

[Garlyle]

I'm not sure why I didn't think of this.  Boss at -50% speed would comparatively be everyone else at 100% speed...

Exactly.

Although in general they are less likely to connect, as most bosses have some level of debuff resistance, the fact is that debuffing a boss' attack stats reduces the damage ALL party members take in a way similar to buffing everyone's defense; debuffing a boss' defense increases the damage everyone does; and debuffing a boss' speed increases everyone's speed advantage.

Obviously this works best if you both buff and debuff where possible.

[Esoterica]

Exactly.

Although in general they are less likely to connect, as most bosses have some level of debuff resistance, the fact is that debuffing a boss' attack stats reduces the damage ALL party members take in a way similar to buffing everyone's defense; debuffing a boss' defense increases the damage everyone does; and debuffing a boss' speed increases everyone's speed advantage.

Obviously this works best if you both buff and debuff where possible.

On second thought, this is what I've been doing with every boss so far.

...no wonder I'm getting raped by 18f. :V

[MysTeariousYukari]

Characters not being as good as I had hoped? All, save for the 12 I used :getdown:

"Ok, everyone I name is very good, the rest, you suck. Remi, Reimu, Marisa, Patchy, Meiling,

Spoiler:

Yukari

, Ran, Flandre, Komachi,

Spoiler:

Rinnosuke

,

Spoiler:

Siki

,

Spoiler:

Utsuho

, Sanae and Alice

Warning - while you were typing 10 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post

Jeez you guys :V

Edit: Flandre just OK'ed Bloody Papa with a single Starbow Break. 2.5 Million damage. Yes, i decided to get back into the game despite the mega lag from every attack. I don't have 2.06 so I can't turn off animation either. :fail:

[Esoterica]

Characters not being as good as I had hoped? All, save for the 12 I used :getdown:

"Ok, everyone I name is very good, the rest, you suck. Remi, Reimu, Marisa, Patchy, Meiling,

Spoiler:

Yukari

, Ran, Flandre, Komachi,

Spoiler:

Rinnosuke

,

Spoiler:

Siki

,

Spoiler:

Utsuho

, Sanae and Alice

Warning - while you were typing 10 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post

Jeez you guys :V

Edit: Flandre just OK'ed Bloody Papa with a single Starbow Break. 2.5 Million damage. Yes, i decided to get back into the game despite the mega lag from every attack. I don't have 2.06 so I can't turn off animation either. :fail:

Then get 2.06. :V

[Garlyle]

Why don't you just get Special Disk instead?

Also: Fun facts: Version 1.0 did not have working sound effects.

[AlexX Unlimited]

Eh... I'm not so sure of that.  I haven't even put much in the way of stat points into her, and yet she'd have MAG stat getting close to Patchouli's and SPD outmatching Aya's when she's got Grand Patriot's going, and the thing is she can do that fast.  Really fast.  If I was to put the skill points into her, I don't doubt I'd be happy with the results.

Try it sometime and be ready to cry like I did. Especially if you're as big a fan of her as I am.

I don't think that's true, but I don't think you'd wanna use Aya's buffing on Chen.  Why?  Chen's rapid-fire turn nature would burn through those buffs really fast, and I don't think it'd make a huge difference due to the way speed works.

As I said, this was all a very long time ago. Nobody believes in "only one or the other" anymore since they now realize the two have completely different roles.

The hell you talking about?  Debuffs work on a lot of stuff; hell, even if the boss has 80% debuff resistance, if it's being hit by the five different kinds of debuffs all at once, chances are something is going to stick, and each one that does is an advantage in your favour.

Debuffs are only that great if they're stacked, and if the boss has 80% stat debuff resistance you can expect to see very few stacked. Yeah, -15% does have its uses, but it's not that godly when it will pretty much go away after 1 or 2 more enemy turns, and in the time Reisen takes to try and get them to finally take effect you could just deal damage with a heavy-hitter.

Don't get me wrong, Reisen isn't useless of course, but you can't just stick her in your team willy-nilly. You need a team that compliments her, so for example,  you could make use of her if you were to make a team built around debuffing and lockdown (Komachi + Reisen makes for a pretty good debuff team, and if you have Yuyuko to delay the enemy turn on top of Suwako for paralysis you could make the effects stay and stack even on the most resistant, and with Wriggle you could just laugh as you have an easy time on bosses, even if you had no nukers).
 

Any time it actually came up to compare them, people argued in favour of Minoriko.  And keep in mind, I've been following this since before it even had an english patch.

I'm talking about here. During the early days (see: the first topic) most took each character at face-value without looking at the raw stats, which means they didn't really notice Minoriko's better fomula. Most just noticed Sanae's better magic, defense, attacks, and that her heal also cured statuses and her buff added to everything. Very few like Sanae anymore, but she was pretty popular early on since she looked like Minoriko 2.0 at first glance.

[Serela]

then they realized minoriko had better MND on top of that, and still healed lots even with all levels on MND, and suddenly Mino not only doesn't get sweeped, but can friggin tank magic

and they laughed

also Reisen's damage isn't terrible, it's just not really great or anything (Unless the enemy is weak to MYS+low MND, or weak to FIR). Parallaxal's videos prove it. She's still not really worth using over other choices, except against specific debuff-weak bosses before you have Renko.

I have a great urge to use Maribel in my party again whenever I get her because <3. But she's not that good... especially in a party with DEF-Yukari tanker, MND-Iku tanker, making her self-buff is only really special for SPD-buffing... well, I suppose I'll just see. And drop her if she's just that bad in my party ): which tbh is kinda likely, she really doesn't fit in well at all

[MysTeariousYukari]

> Hibachi and Dual Hibachi's both got OK'ed by Flandre's Laevatein. Can you say 6 Million Damage? XD

[Esoterica]

> Hibachi and Dual Hibachi's both got OK'ed by Flandre's Laevatein. Can you say 6 Million Damage? XD

You either need to record that, or give me your prefight save file so I can. :V

I have a great urge to use Maribel in my party again whenever I get her because <3. But she's not that good... especially in a party with DEF-Yukari tanker, MND-Iku tanker, making her self-buff is only really special for SPD-buffing... well, I suppose I'll just see. And drop her if she's just that bad in my party ): which tbh is kinda likely, she really doesn't fit in well at all

oh god don't tell me she's bad because I've been looking forward to getting her

[MysTeariousYukari]

You either need to record that, or give me your prefight save file so I can. :V

I'll say it for you... FFFFFFFFFFFFFUU- I saved over the file and don't have any way of recording save for a camera, the not-video-camera type. I'll give you some of Flandre's stats though, if you'd like.

[Esoterica]

I'll say it for you... FFFFFFFFFFFFFUU- I saved over the file and don't have any way of recording save for a camera, the not-video-camera type. I'll give you some of Flandre's stats though, if you'd like.

:C

I don't really want the stats, I just wanted a video on Youtube of Flan kicking Hibachi ass in one turn. :V

[gakpakeerror]

> Hibachi and Dual Hibachi's both got OK'ed by Flandre's Laevatein. Can you say 6 Million Damage? XD

Dual Hibachi is immune to Composite attack due to #1's absurdly high DEF, and #2's absurdly high MND, IIRC.

Edit: Flandre just OK'ed Bloody Papa with a single Starbow Break. 2.5 Million damage. Yes, i decided to get back into the game despite the mega lag from every attack. I don't have 2.06 so I can't turn off animation either. :fail:

2.5M Starbow Break, eh? 
even my lvl 319 Flan with all level up bonus to her ATK can't do 2.5M.
with 80% ATK buff, Starbow Break only hits for ~1.6M on mobs at floor 1.


And, on the topic "who's disappointing" (or such)
Okuu: Despite the defense-ignoring formula, Giga Flare is 3.5*MAG, compared to Shiki's 6.66*ATK, and Kaguya's 6.25*MAG (it's 2.5*(2.5*MAG))

[Esoterica]

Dual Hibachi is immune to Composite attack due to their absurdly high MND/DEF, IIRC.

And, on the topic "who's disappointing" (or such)
Okuu: Despite the defense-ignoring formula, Giga Flare is 3.5*MAG, compared to Shiki's 6.66*ATK, and Kaguya's 6.25*MAG (it's 2.5*(2.5*MAG))

That reminds me...

Fire Rat's Robe: (2.5xMAG)
Swallow's Cowrie Shell: 2.5x(1.25xMAG) plus removes debuffs on Kaguya
Same SP costs and delay

Erm, outside of elemental resistances, is there any reason NOT to use Shell over Robe?

[Serela]

Erm, outside of elemental resistances, is there any reason NOT to use Shell over Robe?

Nope! It's worth mentioning that the formulas were not made with MND-ignoring in mind, that only being an error in data entry ;P

I suppose you could say... they were really made with a lack of mindfulnes-*shot*

[Parallaxal]

Try it sometime and be ready to cry like I did. Especially if you're as big a fan of her as I am.

I have. Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEkKG7giHTM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWLmlGKpATY
Against the infamous 18F boss, Reisen quickly buffs herself and does 70k+ per shot to the Cold and Spirit forms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZq2SQaGOZE
1.5 million damage against the Baal Avatar (roughly 25% of the boss's total health), plus several debuffs. And this is suppose to be one of the hardest of the Plus Disk Sigil Guardians. Reisen doesn't hit as hard as my other buffed characters here, but she hits a lot faster thanks to the massive speed boosts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pac3MSyrhhU
Reisen deals lots of damage plus tons of debuffs. Thanks to her self-buffs, her attacks easily outdamage Orin's unbuffed Blazing Wheel, and she attacks much faster as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnPY4kJ1t_o
About 4.5 million damage contributed by Reisen here against the Yuka boss battle (out of 18 million total damage dealt). Yuka actually has relatively decent debuff resistance, but even a little bit of SPD debuffs can be precious for delaying her final Master Spark.

The thing with Reisen is that I agree that she's not very good once you first get her. To reach her true potential, you'll need to have enough SP to chug a Grand Patriot's Elixir each time her buffs fall below 60%. By the time I reached the Plus Disk at level 200+, though, I had more than enough SP for just that. Keeping Reisen's stats at 60-80% every turn doesn't just make her stats decent, but fantastic. She currently has about 40k MAG at lvl 237. A 60-80% boost does indeed bring her MAG up to Patchy's level. She has close to 15k DEF right now; a 60-80% boost means 24-27k DEF...which is actually almost as much as Meiling currently has (that's why I usually let Reisen stay in during boss battles). And don't get me started on her speed; she's already one of my faster characters even without her buffs.

[gakpakeerror]

Erm, outside of elemental resistances, is there any reason NOT to use Shell over Robe?

Different attack animation  :]
seriously, yes, I've been thinking about that, too.

[Serela]

The problem falls into when you're at a point where everyone is being given party DEF/MND buffs and offensive buffs as needed, so the self-buff characters aren't so special ;P Tis the big downer for Reisen, Maribel, and Suika.

Although, since you're running a fixed team without Reimu or Yukari, you don't have that. So that makes Reisen/Maribel more useful. Unless you start using Renko's Charge all the time, which isn't really advised; although as you get farther, careful use of it can be effective, and the damage it causes becomes more insignificant.

[Parallaxal]

The problem falls into when you're at a point where everyone is being given party DEF/MND buffs and offensive buffs as needed, so the self-buff characters aren't so special ;P Tis the big downer for Reisen, Maribel, and Suika.

I agree that self-buffers are more valuable if you're missing buffs of your own, but it's not like having party buffs make self-buffs worthless. Unless you're using Ran, chances are you're not going to get everyone buffed even with your party buffs, so your self-buffers can be the characters that you "miss" on purpose.

Reisen, though, I believe is in a special case all her own for a self-buffer. You see, Grand Patriot's Elixir is completely different in use from Overflowing Natural Power in that you don't just use it once and not recast it; I typically recast it after every 2 attacks or so. Why is this significant? Because buffs will run down, whether or not you're using party-wide buffs. Even after buffing everyone with Ran or Keine or whoever, after two or three attacks you'll have lost a good chunk of those buffs. So even if Reisen does get buffed by someone else, after a few turns when other characters' buffs are running down, she can pop herself back up to 100% with very little cost in time.

[Serela]

Having the self-buff is still good, yeah, but the characters with them have below-average stats, so with everyone buffed they really have a harder time keeping up, even with an easier time holding high buffs. The main advantage though is that they've still got their unique SPD-boosting, since most don't use Sakuya or Aya ;3

I'm hoping that will redeem Maribel enough to keep her good enough to use in my party setup, since I really like her ;_; It's too bad her WND nuke isn't useful for the whole time you have her, since no bosses are weak to WND then, several resisting it, and then for randoms it's a row attack so... and her single-target is probably more useful for bosses then her SPI nuke unless you're switchwhoring; 50% delay with a high SPD buff is good enough to leave her out between attacks, right? Or, hmm, I wonder if Liberated Abilities outdamages it. It's a good MYS attack for Shikieiki's boss fight at least, and only 40% delay. Composite attacks are harder to predict in damage... except that Blazing Wheel is a lot better :\

Come to think of it, you still need to fight final boss ver.2! :D I had an easier time with her then Shikieiki, but that was with a different party, so. The Tetra Grammaton is really the whole difficulty of that fight, so it depends on whether you can beat it up. I know it can be debuffed and PSN'd, at least.

[Parallaxal]

I admit, I kind of forgot about the Final Boss v.2, and fought her after Shikieiki. It was...rather fast and easy. I have the video, but didn't post it.

Maribel isn't bad, but can be somewhat tricky to use. Liberated Abilities does about 350,000 damage to Shikieiki at lvl 240ish after buffing herself. Her row-based WND nuke has much better MND-piercing properties than her other spells, so it's good against higher MND targets. I use her for switchnuking, but leaving her in for Chaotic Quadruple Barrier spam isn't bad either. At lvl 240 with decent equipment, Maribel has about 10k DEF and almost 20k MND. With buffs, her MND becomes quite solid, although her DEF is still kind of shaky. I wouldn't be opposed to leaving her in when a boss attacks, though, unlike my other unbuffed attackers sans Mokou. Her MAG is over 45k right now, so after one buff her MAG does come close to Patchy levels, I guess.

I usually switch her out right after buffing herself, since it does cost her entire active guage. Afterwards, though, her speed buff plus her decent delay spells don't necessarily dictate switching her out. I just do so anyway because Reisen's usually the one occupying the stay-in position. However, I might try letting her stay in for my upcoming Utsuho battle.

[Serela]

Actually, Utsuho is probably too dangerous to leave her out for, especially since Utsuho is resistant to things not either non-elemental, NTR, CLD, or SPI. That takes off most of your party's good attacks, really, so Maribel will be too valuable to risk losing; although if you boosted her FIR and MYS affinities a ton, she might take low enough damage... Giga Flare would be a big worry though. Hmm.

Also, I just realized how much speedier then everyone else Maribel gets after that self-buff, even with speed proration stuffs around Reimu lv260; just tested her out on my old save from last play. Maybe she'll still be a good member this run after all or maybe I should be getting Sakuya instead. And Liberated Abilities does indeed outdamage her single-target after buffing; although that was tested on 1F enemies, so I'm not certain it'd hold up later. And the extra 10% delay... hmm. Maybe using her big nuke so the buff doesn't run down as fast would be best after all? I guess it's more of a situational thing.

[AlexX Unlimited]

I can't find the old post that had a download for all the old tunes. Any chance you guys can add it to the first post? I don't really care for the new ones.

[Serela]

I can't find the old post that had a download for all the old tunes. Any chance you guys can add it to the first post? I don't really care for the new ones.

You can change which music the game uses in Akyu's House. About downloading the old music, I dunno where that went ^^;

[MysTeariousYukari]

Dual Hibachi is immune to Composite attack due to #1's absurdly high DEF, and #2's absurdly high MND, IIRC.
2.5M Starbow Break, eh? 

570K Attack or so will do that for ya. Starbow break that is. 230K MAG helps with Laevatein, as does a Full ATK and MAG Buff.

:C

I don't really want the stats, I just wanted a video on Youtube of Flan kicking Hibachi ass in one turn. :V

I'll try, but nothing I can really do for now. Would OHKOing a V.2 Bloody Seal be a decent make-up? If so, I'll try that.

[Garlyle]

You know what's awesome?  Having Wriggle kill Orin v2 through actual damage while you're busy recharging for a Master Spark, thinking that's the only thing that'll actually output the damage you need to finish her off.

Even awesomer?  Breaking

Spoiler:

Yukari

v2's AI by recovering and damaging her so fast after her first Djinn Storm (Slow her, then Marisa w/stupid high SP Recovery + Rumia + Cirno to keep slowed).  Her next action was to Djinn Storm me again, but she never used Barrier Release, and was thus stuck in her first phase until I killed her.

[trancehime]

570K Attack or so will do that for ya. Starbow break that is. 230K MAG helps with Laevatein, as does a Full ATK and MAG Buff.

I dunno, they both have 10 Billion in their respective defenses...

That is NOT enough. I had well over 3M attack for Flandre and I was not doing a lot of damage.

EDIT: Oh wait, if you were referring to V1 then I am sorely mistaken >_>