Labyrinth of Touhou 5F

[Parallaxal]

Personally, I prefer to switch out just one slot for high-delay damage dealers, and have 3 characters stay in almost full-time.

For example, with the Double Hibachi Ver.2, I had Meiling permanently in slot 1, Iku and Keine trading off slot 2 whenever they're low on HP and passing out buffs as usual, Reisen in slot 3 as a full-time damage dealer, and slot 4 for switching high delay characters in and out. In other fights, I might have Minoriko or Rumia in full-time for healing. Regardless, I think the best party has both characters who can stay in and long-delay characters to switch out. But since you can alternate between your best long-delay nukers, your party shouldn' t normally need more than 2 or 3 glass cannons to fill this role. Any more and you're probably not utilizing your characters and switching tactics efficiently anyway. The rest of your damage dealer slots would probably be better spent on bulkier nukers and buffers at that point.

For post-Resurrection Mokou, you're going to have to plan to survive Fujiyama Volcano, as it's very hard to kill her before she attacks thanks to her way higher SPD. That's why I don't normally bother with forcing her to use Tsuki no Iwakasa's Curse, since I'm going to have to go for mass FIR affinity anyway for surviving Fujiyama Volcano. It's physical, so Yuugi should be able to survive with the proper gear, as would more dedicated tanks.

[Mr. Sacchi]

Well, hello again, I seem to have a problem, yet again...

I finished eientei, and right now I'm at the 15th floor, I want to get all of the flandre events ready for later when I fight her. However, I'm pretty damn sure I have done the first and second talking events, and the third on floor 13 isn't where the jap wiki said it should be, also, what's the number to getting there? Seriously, one wiki says 64, the other says 120. >_>''

[Esoterica]

I would actually recommend 2 tanks for bosses. My current strategy with Mokou is to start off with Meiling, Eirin, Reisen, and Cirno and mass debuff her stats (speed from the get go). I have enough time to switch Reisen and Cirno out for Reimu and Aya before the first Tsuki then it's just a matter of mass party shuffling.

Basically in-between every Mokou turn I do this: Switch in Reimu for Reisen (Discarder), Switch in Reisen for a Nuke (Nitori, Suwako, Yuugi, or Marisa), Nuke, Switch nuke out for another nuke, Nuke, Switch back to tanking party before next Mokou turn (Meiling, Eirin, Aya, Reimu).

Yes, keeping Mokou at -50% Speed gives you that much time in-between turns.

MY problem is once she uses Ressurection. *rage*

I think Mokou was the one fight where I didn't go insane switching people in and out.  I started with Tenshi, Ran, Reimu, and Chen.  Ran threw out her offensive buff, while Reimu used her defensive.  Chen used Kimontonkou and spammed Flight of Itaden until her SP ran out (seriously didn't even bother switching her out before attacks, she could take a hit surprisingly), after which I  replaced her with Patch.  After Reimu had buffed Tenshi/Ran's defense to max, I swapped her out for Suwako.  After Ran ran out of SP, Youmu and Nitori were swapped back and forth while Patch and Suwako spammed Silent Selene and Iron Ring, respectively.  When Patch ran out of SP I swapped Marisa in for her, because that meant Resurrection was next turn.

Honestly I don't know how people play where everyone is apparently switched out all the friggin time. I mean everyone shits on the characters who can actually take a hit and dps (like remi), and swear by characters who tend to get 1shot. But I don't care how fast your tank is, there's just no way 1 tank can swich out 3 party members of glass cannons in and out in between boss attacks AND do whatever it is they do as a tank (like heal themselves occasionally for china's case). I see people go "hurr if you have ___ out when the boss attacks you're a stupid fuckup who should just jump off a balcony shitface!!!!"..Then I see videos of thoe characters out on boss attacks, then the same people talking about how good they are.. I just don't get it...Not that I'm saying you're one of them.

Use a lineup of tank - buffer/secondary tank - nuker - healer/second nuker.  Third slot gets switched around frequently, everyone else stays in nearly full-time.

[Garlyle]

Well, hello again, I seem to have a problem, yet again...

I finished eientei, and right now I'm at the 15th floor, I want to get all of the flandre events ready for later when I fight her. However, I'm pretty damn sure I have done the first and second talking events, and the third on floor 13 isn't where the jap wiki said it should be, also, what's the number to getting there? Seriously, one wiki says 64, the other says 120. >_>''

I think you can use either.  Very few of the destinations require a specific combination.

Also I think there's some additional conditions to getting her to show up there.

[Esoterica]

I think you can use either.  Very few of the destinations require a specific combination.

Also I think there's some additional conditions to getting her to show up there.

Only one that has special conditions is 15F, which you need 3000BP between Reimu, Marisa, Remilia, Sakuya, Patchouli, and Meiling for (which you're pretty much guaranteed to have)

[Pesco]

Only one that has special conditions is 15F, which you need 3000BP between Reimu, Marisa, Remilia, Sakuya, Patchouli, and Meiling for (which you're pretty much guaranteed to have)

Not if you've been doing a challenge run :V

[Esoterica]

Not if you've been doing a challenge run :V

Yeah, I'm kinda fucked on that one. :V

[Parallaxal]

Team Unappreciated vs. Double Hibachi Ver.2
Part 1
Part 2

Part 1 goes up to the death of Hibachi #1, and part 2 is against berserked Hibachi #2. Overall, this thing ended up easier than I expected compared to round 1 against these guys.

Reisen is awesome.

[BallerSupreme]

The way I normally do switches is I have my tank and off tank in the first two slots, who are slightly slower than the people in the third and fourth slot. (for boss battles it'll often be Meiling and 18f).
That means you can swap the last two slots every 25% delay gauge on your tanks.I dropped a dedicated 4th slot healer before plus disk, and started using only Reimu, so I just swap her out after exorcising barrier like any other nuker on my party.
I did this because I had a fragile nuke heavy team ( with characters like Kaguya, Flandre, Nitori, Suwako).

For Kaguya, I actually do use her buff once in awhile, for when I mess up a delay switch for some reason, or there's someone I really want to buff (like maybe my team is low on hp, kaguya is in 4th slot, reimu just used hakurei barrier. I buddha bowl Reimu, she exorcise barriers, then my two tanks get their turn and swap them out again).

But, I think if you use 16f, you don't need Kaguya's buff as much. If I didn't use her, I'd probably rely on it much more, and would have gone a mnd build. As it is, with a mag build, Kaguya's damage is pretty excellent.

[FantomFang]

Great. The only item I could grind for was on 3F. Thought I was missing more  :V
Guess it's time to grind for real while I iron out any changes to my strategy...

[Parallaxal]

The strategies involved with using one or two dedicated switchers/switch slots is quite interesting. There's a lot of pros and cons for both. Just to consider it...

1. Using 1st slot tank and 2nd slot backup tank to switch two slots worth of characters:

> Reimu is almost essential for healing (although Rumia might do a decent job if buffed; I've done it myself).
+ Best used by parties with many glass cannons.
+ Less need to spread out resistance/affinity gear among multiple characters.
- Difficulty buffing your attackers unless you're switching in Ran, resulting in lower damage output per attack.
- Speed of the operation cannot be improved; can't take advantage of speed buffs.

2. Using 1st slot tank to switch one slot for attackers, keeping 2 other characters in long-term:

> Minoriko may be the better healer for this, due to much lower delays.
+ Easier to buff your attackers as they switch in (I have Iku or Keine stay in for my team).
+ Best use for bulky characters or some self-buffers (Remilia, Reisen, Maribel, etc.).
+ Makes better use of speed buffs.
- Harder to bring more characters up to par for survivability; can't just concentrate on offense.
- Can't efficiently utilize more than 2 or 3 glass cannon nukers in this fashion.

It really depends on your party to decide which method is better. Personally, I think the 2nd method is better if you've got single-target buffers like Iku, as it's much easier to cast buffs and keep them up this way, which results in nearly double the damage from your glass cannon attackers, plus additional damage from any other attackers that are staying in. Using Ran helps if you're going with the first method, but that's still kind of slow in comparison. The 1st method is better if you don't have single-target offensive buffs and still need a way to utilize many glass cannons.

[FantomFang]

The strategies involved with using one or two dedicated switchers/switch slots is quite interesting. There's a lot of pros and cons for both. Just to consider it...

1. Using 1st slot tank and 2nd slot backup tank to switch two slots worth of characters:

> Reimu is almost essential for healing (although Rumia might do a decent job if buffed; I've done it myself).
+ Best used by parties with many glass cannons.
+ Less need to spread out resistance/affinity gear among multiple characters.
- Difficulty buffing your attackers unless you're switching in Ran, resulting in lower damage output per attack.
- Speed of the operation cannot be improved; can't take advantage of speed buffs.

2. Using 1st slot tank to switch one slot for attackers, keeping 2 other characters in long-term:

> Minoriko may be the better healer for this, due to much lower delays.
+ Easier to buff your attackers as they switch in (I have Iku or Keine stay in for my team).
+ Best use for bulky characters or some self-buffers (Remilia, Reisen, Maribel, etc.).
+ Makes better use of speed buffs.
- Harder to bring more characters up to par for survivability; can't just concentrate on offense.
- Can't efficiently utilize more than 2 or 3 glass cannon nukers in this fashion.

It really depends on your party to decide which method is better. Personally, I think the 2nd method is better if you've got single-target buffers like Iku, as it's much easier to cast buffs and keep them up this way, which results in nearly double the damage from your glass cannon attackers, plus additional damage from any other attackers that are staying in. Using Ran helps if you're going with the first method, but that's still kind of slow in comparison. The 1st method is better if you don't have single-target offensive buffs and still need a way to utilize many glass cannons.

Funnily enough, I think I oftentimes go for a strategy more like #1 with a party configuration more similar to #2. So many fragile nukers now. I'll probably get another sturdy character in there for somebody like Aya come postgame, and maybe switch out one of my other nukers for Nitori. I dunno though, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

[BallerSupreme]

I used to use a strategy more like number 2 (and Minoriko is a pretty awesome switcher if she sits in 4th slot!), but for certain bosses, I felt a lot more comfortable using a different strategy.

I don't actually adhere that strictly to 2 tanks 2 swaps though, as depending on the boss and who can tank, I'll sometimes have Aya in the third slot and switch in the fourth for buffs, and have second slot attack, or switch in ran in 4th slot and have her buff whichever person i swap in.

I don't think it's too hard to buff your attackers using Ran (or Keine) with that setup, since you'll have to switch Ran and Reimu to tank boss attacks anyway. I wonder how much different the overall speed is though, considering you're using two nukers at a time instead of one. Also, if using 18f, you have World Shaking Military Rule to help buff two attackers in the beginning, and Ran can assist rebuffing afterwards.

I actually like approach 2 better though, it seems like a safer way to approach bosses.  In fact I'd probably try something like 18f/Meiling, Iku, nuker/Reimu, and Ran.
The other single target buffers though, do they work well in slot 2 compared to Iku? If I were using Sanae or Kaguya, i feel like i'd need to leave them in slot 4.

[Parallaxal]

Sanae and Kaguya definitely belong in slot 4, and should probably be built for MND to up their survivability for this task Kaguya's "buff" is very unique, and care must be taken to ensure the guage filling effect isn't wasted. For best effect, she should be just a tiny bit faster than whoever is doing the switching. With a 50% delay on Buddha's Stone Bowl, she'll be able to fill a guage every other switch. The slightly higher speed lets her go after the faster nuker attacks, but before the switcher takes them out.

[Serela]

Finally back at my house so I can get back to thLaby, 22F whee.

Now that people realize Iku is awesome, someone needs to put Iku and ATK-based Aya together and realize she's Chen 2.0 when buffed.

[FantomFang]

Her formula's are still meh though, sadly enough. I've built my Aya as 50/50 ATK/SPD and she's really only strong on the attack if the enemy has low defenses or is weak to wind. I really wish they'd give her a Non-Elemental atk...

[Serela]

Her formula's are still meh though, sadly enough. I've built my Aya as 50/50 ATK/SPD and she's really only strong on the attack if the enemy has low defenses or is weak to wind. I really wish they'd give her a Non-Elemental atk...

With bad defense piercing, not going full ATK will really hurt her damage.

Also, Iku. Were you spamming PWG with her at 100% speed buff while Iku (Or Keine) buffs her? Otherwise her damage would be meh, yes. And SP required means this doesn't work particularly well till Plus Disk.

On paper, it's perfect. Her ATK and damage formula are better then Chen's Idaten with similar delay and speed. Due to quickly hitting 100% SPD buff she'd be faster then Chen, with a supporter buffing her that'd fix the MAIN problem of her not having Kimontonkou for atk buff. And she can buff speed too or switchwhore if attacking isn't good on that boss or as needed at the moment.

The thing that holds her behind Chen is not being able to buff her own attack. But if you fix that, and can manage the SP...

[Esoterica]

Finally back at my house so I can get back to thLaby, 22F whee.

Now that people realize Iku is awesome, someone needs to put Iku and ATK-based Aya together and realize she's Chen 2.0 when buffed.

I'm not sure why I haven't tried this yet.

[FantomFang]

Well, I'm up to Reimu 97 now, spent SKP buffing my HP's to help get me above the "death threshold", as I call it, for some of 18F's attacks, and raring to go!

I may go ahead and try using Iku on Aya for the NTR form. Maybe Aya properly boosted can blitz through it before 18F gets more than 1 attack off.

[Esoterica]

Well, I'm up to Reimu 97 now, spent SKP buffing my HP's to help get me above the "death threshold", as I call it, for some of 18F's attacks, and raring to go!

I may go ahead and try using Iku on Aya for the NTR form. Maybe Aya properly boosted can blitz through it before 18F gets more than 1 attack off.

She should do really well, considering even unbuffed Aya shreds NTR form for me.

[BallerSupreme]

Aya's attacks will probably do somewhere between 70k-100k if you built her for attack, and she had a bit of atk boost.
Peerless Wind God did 90k a hit to the Nature form, with my level 94 Reimu party, and I think that was only with 40% atk buffs.

[Serela]

oh my god this is awesome

aya is in my party now so hard

She burns through those ATK buffs damn fast though, so you've really gotta have Keine or Iku out keeping them up.

[Parallaxal]

18F boss really doesn't have that much DEF or MND, so most characters can hit hard with the elemental weakness on their side. I've had Wriggle with some attack buffs do 50k a hit to the Wind form, and I never gave her a single level up bonus to ATK.

[FantomFang]

Well, I just beat 18F on my 2nd full try after getting to Reimu 97. Several other tries were aborted after an early snipe killed a Nuker or Aya. Seems like the hardest part of the battle is honestly his original form. In the later ones, you have a rather good idea of what he's going to do, and how to protect against it. In his original form, however, he easily and often snipes your 3rd to 4th row party member, which is a raeg-quit moment (that actually happened in my first full run again when I lost, he sniped some Nukers early on, impacting my availability in the elemental forms and prolonging the battle to the point that when I reached the final part I had no nukers left alive, sad day).

The funny thing about the run that beat him is I didn't have a single death. No snipes in first form, and after that it was simply strategy, timely switching, and counting health to make the most of my turns and to minimize the damage he did. Was also more efficient with Reimu/Ran, resulting in the defensive buffs being prolonged until the end of the battle (with more guys alive, it was easier to bench them periodically to rest to keep them from running dry. Previous runs they ran out near the middle b/c they had no effective replacements to hold the line). Oh, and a few equipment changes to more fully single out Nukers for different forms made a big difference.

All in all, a very fun and technical fight. I still imagine that there are other party makeups (or more likely, tactics) that would have made this easier, but with enough work I got mine going with flying colors. 

EDIT: How should I spend my LVL-Ups on 18F btw?

[Ghaleon]

Yeah Aya is a underrated attacker IMO. Her formulas are indeed pretty underwhelming but her good (though not great) attack combined with her high speed and reasonable leveling rate makes her one of the best wind dpsers there is IMO. She can't really tank physical or magic attacks, but she doesn't get steamrolled by either either. I also prefer her speed buffing over Sakuya's...

Last though, she is quite possibly the most amazing trash clearer in the game...Like flan good. I mean she's one of precious few characters with multi-target def-based attacks instead of mind, hers isn't even all that expensive either. Her speed also allows her to get the jump on the fastest enemies, and her damage should be good e nough that she can 1hko stuff like eyes of twilight. I think she also is what made 17f trash not really worth mentioning on my first playthru (causing me to wonder wtf everyone was whining about later on, and experiencing my own 17f hardships on my future playthrus).

[Serela]

I think she also is what made 17f trash not really worth mentioning on my first playthru

I feel weird because I've never had trouble with 17F trash on my three playthroughs, Reimu being in the low 70s on the second two :\

[BallerSupreme]

Imagine how hax Aya would be if she had a neutral damage spell.

for 18f, if you intend on using him as a tank, I'd suggest getting Defense and Mind. I decided to try using him as my tank for certain boss battles (with a full attack build) and regretted it.

His attack growth is really good, and his skills do a lot of damage, so if you did want to use him as an attacker I imagine you could have him as an off tank stay in sort of character. I think you'd get the best mileage with a defensive build though, as I find his buff much more useful than his damage.

[Parallaxal]

Well, FantomFang already has 2 tanks on his team, so I'm not sure if he wants a 3rd unless he's replacing one of them.

And I'll admit, even though I always recommend just running, I personally do fight my way through 17F every time, and while it's one of the harder floors, I've still successfully done so with every party. Usually, I have a fast paralysis user with me to disable Angelic Conceptions and Gold Knights, although it doesn't work on Angelic Conception - Battle. I just need strong characters in the 1st slot to tank the Battle's attacks.

[FantomFang]

Well, I "had" two tanks. I dropped Tenshi because as much as I like her for her defenses, her slow speed combined with her weakness to attacks like Rasetsu Fist made her non-ideal.
My current line-up is as follows:

Spoiler:

Meiling, Ran, Reimu, Aya, Flandre, Marisa, Suwako, Youmu, Iku, Patchy, Sanae, Alice

Offtank has typically been Youmu/Ran now, but I'd like to start using 18F in that slot. So who do you figure I should bench? 18F will be Offtank+Buffer, using the offensive capabilities to clear trash.

[trancehime]

Well, I "had" two tanks. I dropped Tenshi because as much as I like her for her defenses, her slow speed combined with her weakness to attacks like Rasetsu Fist made her non-ideal.

Almost everyone who doesn't have a high HP value gets hit by Rasetsu Fist because it ignores defense :/