Labyrinth of Touhou 5F

[Esoterica]

Pretty much everything Serela said.

Though DEF Yuugi would be an amazing tank for physical bosses, considering she has the best DEF growth in the game.

[Serela]

physical bosses

like what? :V

[Esoterica]

like what? :V

You tell me. :V

After you said all of boss Mokou's attacks were physical aside from one, I'm not sure what's what anymore.

[Parallaxal]

like what? :V

Bosses with no magic attacks after recruiting Yuugi:
Nitori
Tenshi
Great Stamp
18F's 1st and last forms
Genocider
Hibachi (for the first 5 turns, at least; switch her out after the 2nd Needle Parade, and back in after the 3rd)
Several Version 2 bosses (Meiling, Chen, etc.)
Baal Avatar (Ha ha, old chap! Dark Blaze)

Bosses with mostly fire magic and physical attacks:
Orin
Mokou (only Flame Wind is magical, surprisingly)
Every single Foe boss

After you said all of boss Mokou's attacks were physical aside from one, I'm not sure what's what anymore.

I know, I really don't know why that's so too. But yeah, Fujiyama Volcano is purely physical, as are Fire Bird -Flying Phoenix- and Wu. Her only attacks that use MND are Tsuki no Iwakasa's Curse (composite) and Flame Wind.

[Rikter]

Reimu level 100 Mr. Man looks doable if I can get past the first phase with minimal casulties.

It's a shame the first phase is mostly luck based though.

[Parallaxal]

Reimu level 100 Mr. Man looks doable if I can get past the first phase with minimal casulties.

It's a shame the first phase is mostly luck based though.

Could be worse. Could be like the Shikieiki fight, where the first half is trivial, and the latter part of the fight is totally luck-based.

[Pesco]

[21:44:39] <NeoSerela> :V
[21:44:54] <NeoSerela> GREAT WALL OF CHINA vs. **Winner**
[21:45:52] <Pesco> Do  Suwako solo game
[21:46:04] <YoseiOnmyoji> I thought Real Men do Patchy Solo
[21:46:18] <Rikter> Chen Solo
[21:46:19] <Chaore> You get Suwako so la- Oh wait NG+
[21:46:21] <NeoSerela> >Patchy Solo
[21:46:23] <Pesco> Mystia can't solo Double Hibachi because she doesn't have Mag attacks :<
[21:46:24] <NeoSerela> olololol
[21:46:35] <Chaore> I love Patchy like hell
[21:46:38] <Rikter> Pesco: Grind more
[21:46:43] <Chaore> But that was honestly a joke, Yosei.
[21:46:43] <Pesco> Screw you
[21:46:52] <Chaore> Patchy needs and loves her meatshields.
[21:47:23] <YoseiOnmyoji> and I still say that I'd do Patchy, iykwim :V
[21:47:23] <NeoSerela> >Encounter Chen at lv120
[21:47:30] <NeoSerela> game over to flight of idaten
[21:48:05] <Rikter> Hmmm
[21:48:09] <Rikter> I wonder...
[21:48:22] <Rikter> Would she lose that fight at that level?
[21:48:24] <NeoSerela> no
[21:48:46] <NeoSerela> 1F bosses wouldn't be able to 0hko even patch
[21:49:01] <NeoSerela> and she could probably move first at that level
[21:49:02] <Chaore> Well ofcourse Yosei.
[21:49:09] <Chaore> That's unspoken. : V
[21:49:33] <Chaore> man
[21:49:39] <Chaore> does Labyrinth have like giant armor items?
[21:49:48] <Rikter> Patchy seems to be getting worse at 18F
[21:49:51] <Chaore> I suddenly want to pile them on patchy and make some kind of patchitank.
[21:50:03] <Chaore> This is you doing things wrong, Rikter.
[21:50:07] <Chaore> >: <
[21:50:10] <Rikter> 3 Machine God Lucifers :V
[21:50:15] <Rikter> She's to slow
[21:50:16] <YoseiOnmyoji> PATCHYTANK
[21:50:40] <Rikter> Mr. Man is almost Chen Speed
[21:50:51] <headcrabs> why is he so fast
[21:50:52] <Chaore> THIS IS YOU DOING THINGS WRONG RIKTER
[21:50:52] <Chaore> >: <
[21:50:58] <headcrabs> How can manliness make you faster
[21:51:15] <NeoSerela> Chaore:Stat boosts are all % based
[21:51:24] <NeoSerela> so Patchy's HP and DEF shall forever be rock bottom
[21:51:33] <Chaore> Still
[21:51:38] <Rikter> I'd rather have someone faster then Patchy for that fight
[21:51:44] <Chaore> The idea of Patchouli wearing twelve sets of armor
[21:51:52] <NeoSerela> And Patch really does get worse
[21:51:57] <Chaore> Come on, Don't tell me you don't find that hillarious
[21:52:00] <Rikter> And raising her speed isn't a good idea
[21:52:07] <Chaore> This is you doing things wrong. Blatantly. >: <
[21:52:10] <NeoSerela> her speed hurts her and her damage isn't that exciting anymore
[21:52:15] <Pesco> Sakuya solo run
[21:52:17] <Pesco> :V
[21:52:21] <NeoSerela> also, lol patch in tons of armor
[21:52:32] <NeoSerela> Pesco:Komachi solo
[21:52:38] <Rikter> Then again we have Nitori which makes everyones Damage look low.
[21:52:40] <NeoSerela> everything damages you
[21:52:43] <Chaore> Komachi is kind of doable.
[21:52:49] <Pesco> Komachi solo is a whole lot more possible than Sakuya though
[21:52:50] <Chaore> Just instakill everything.
[21:52:54] <NeoSerela> >POISON POWER
[21:52:54] <Rikter> Chen Solo
[21:52:58] <NeoSerela> YOU DIED
[21:53:00] <VicViper> I heard Komachi
[21:53:15] <VicViper> what about Tits?
[21:53:18] <VicViper> erm, Komachi
[21:53:26] <NeoSerela> Pesco:Except even overleveled Komachi will take high damge
[21:53:34] <NeoSerela> when Sakuya would be taking 0s
[21:53:36] <Magical_Moerin> What about Komachi's tits?
[21:53:37] <Rikter> Tenshi Solo
[21:53:37] <Pesco> Paizurri Komachi-tits Y/Y?
[21:53:40] <Magical_Moerin> >.>
[21:53:52] <Chaore> Oh neo.
[21:53:53] <NeoSerela> Rikter:Game over on first boss with Rasetsu Fist :V
[21:53:54] <Rikter> You need to raise attack
[21:53:58] <Chaore> : V
[21:54:00] <Rikter> And HP
[21:54:12] <NeoSerela> Chaore:wat
[21:54:14] <Pesco> Tenshi solo is sad
[21:54:19] <Chaore> You're so adorable.
[21:54:21] <Rikter> Every level up into HP :V
[21:54:22] * Chaore pets Neo on the head.
[21:54:29] <Pesco> Meiling at least has something to pierce high def
[21:54:31] * NeoSerela giggles
[21:54:41] <NeoSerela> Meiling solo is one of the better ones for sure
[21:54:48] <Pesco> How about Alice solo
[21:54:56] <Pesco> Because she has no friends :V
[21:54:58] <headcrabs> would alice solo be easy :V
[21:54:59] <NeoSerela> High HP/DEF, DEF piercing attack, CAN HEAL HERSELLFFFFF
[21:55:06] <Chaore> Alice Solo is provenly the most possible methinks.
[21:55:19] <NeoSerela> Alice solo can hit both DEF and MND which helps
[21:55:31] <NeoSerela> and her DEF isn't HORRIBLE
[21:55:35] <Pesco> Minoriko solo :V
[21:55:53] <NeoSerela> Minoriko can heal and DEF/MND buff and MND pierce
[21:55:59] <Chaore> POTATO SPAMMM
[21:56:00] <Rikter> Wriggle Solo
[21:56:01] <Pesco> But dies to everything
[21:56:02] <Chaore> No no wait
[21:56:05] <NeoSerela> all levelups in DEF and it might be doable
[21:56:06] <Chaore> RENKO SOLO.
[21:56:07] <Pesco> Wriggle can solo
[21:56:10] <NeoSerela> Pesco:wat
[21:56:13] <NeoSerela> Minoriko's MND is really high
[21:56:17] <NeoSerela> with MND levelups
[21:56:23] <NeoSerela> OH MY GOD RENKO SOLO
[21:56:31] <NeoSerela> LOL DEAL YOUR DAMAGE WITH ATTACK COMMAND
[21:56:58] <Rikter> Flandre Solo :V
[21:57:11] <NeoSerela> overleveled until you can kill the boss in a few hits
[21:57:30] <Chaore> Given Flandre's whole thing is she fucks her allys up... Prolly good chance, Rik.
[21:57:44] <Pesco> Flan solo will be oo easy
[21:57:44] <headcrabs> who needs allies when you have ~yourself~
[21:57:49] <Pesco> too
[21:57:59] <Pesco> You know what I need to do?
[21:58:04] <Rikter> Anyone could potentially solo it just takes to long to make some solo
[21:58:05] <NeoSerela> Renko solo would just be ridiculous
[21:58:10] <Pesco> Hack a patch to have 4 Flans on the team
[21:58:17] <NeoSerela> ahaha
[21:58:18] <Rikter> brb firiing up 2.04
[21:58:18] <Pesco> 4 OF A KIND XD
[21:58:32] <NeoSerela> Rikter:2.04 why
[21:58:41] <Rikter> Because I still have it
[21:59:05] <Rikter> And Cheat engine table I have is for that...
[21:59:21] <headcrabs> i should update my labyrinth
[21:59:24] <headcrabs> do saves copy over :V
[21:59:37] <Rikter> Yes they do
[22:00:52] <NeoSerela> that's not what you're playing with though, right
[22:00:52] <NeoSerela> normally, I mean
[22:00:59] <NeoSerela> mhmm
[22:01:01] <Rikter> No
[22:01:07] <Rikter> I only use it for lulz
[22:01:15] <Rikter> Like negative levels
[22:01:48] <NeoSerela> heal things so hard they die
[22:01:51] <NeoSerela> Minoriko's true power

[Esoterica]

FOUR OF A KIND

I WANT TO SEE THIS

/cruisecontrol

though they'll be screwing each other over every time they try to do something that isn't Starbow Break.

[Ghaleon]

I'm just going to throw out a list of ideas I've had here.

Things I want to try:

MND Patchy
DEF Remilia
ATK Meiling (Ha ha, old chap!)
ATK Komachi
DEF Wriggle
DEF Yuugi (pump those affinities!)
SPD Chen (yes really)

Yes, I am crazy.

I use mnd Patchy all the time, I actually prefer it over mag patchy (which I'm doing this game). Her survivability is much much better, and her damage isn't actually not much worse. I think it's because of Silent Selene's mnd/4 part of the formula, it makes the lowered mag/tarMnd ratio less of an issue, so lowering mag wont gimp as much as you would expect. Yuugi's KO3S would be in the smae boat.

Def Remilia is kind of sort of what I also do too normally (again, but not in my current playthru). Though I actually go more like 2/3 def 1/3 mnd. Her damage does IMO doesn't take a huge hit. It makes Remi able to stick around for really long periods of time without panicking much at all, just keep that buff up. IT's almost like having a 2nd tenshi that can dps. She wont take 0s from absolutely everything, but she will take really small hits, and her higher hp allows them to be a near non-issue.

atk meiling... I rekon that wont be terribly useful, Healer will likely stay too weak to keep other people tanking alive, and she'll probably need to colorful rain too often to really act as a healer for anybody else  if she's in the front still. And as a nuker, I still think she'd be "meh" at best.

People are already talking about atk Komachi, her spirit nuke will indeed be powerful, and s he wont be as squishy as someone like flan or suwako.

I thought people go def for wriggle already... wtf else would you do? >=P.

Spd chen would be so awsome early game, and post game probably pretty bad. This is purely because the game doesn't progress in time in an "analog" manner, but digitally "chunks" each tick. Late post game, your bars are going to fill at like 10% per tick. And since chen's attacks have really low delay, most of your extra speed speed is going to be totally wasted.. It'd be like increasing the attackpower for a specific enemy t hat can kill that enemy in one hit anyway.

Of course newly reaching each threshold of 3,2, and (maybe) 1 tick flights would be pretty cool, it would be kind of a shame though to spend it on anything but attack since she is perfectly capable of "doubling up" all her atk bonuses with her self buff anyway, so basically you'll see much less returns in any other stat, not only because they are less important, but because they don't get buffed.

[Esoterica]

I thought people go def for wriggle already... wtf else would you do? >=P.

Build her atk and use her third spell for sweeping trash. :V

[trancehime]

Okay, her health growth is actually a lot higher than I thought it was, she probably could take a hit.

I'm still skeptical about her survivability though.

I'm very sure Komachi has the BEST HP growth in the game.

[Serela]

I'm very sure Komachi has the BEST HP growth in the game.

She also has the some of the worst DEF and MND growths. She won't go down in one hit, but she can't take many without getting healed or switched out.

[trancehime]

She also has the some of the worst DEF and MND growths. She won't go down in one hit, but she can't take many without getting healed or switched out.

I'm just happy that Komachi's titanic HP is enough to get her physical durability away from Patchy-tier, and her magical durability away from Yuugi-tier.

[MysTeariousYukari]

4 of a Kind = DO WANT!

Also, when did that huge convo happen Pesco? I want in on these things :]

[trancehime]

4 of a Kind = DO WANT!

Also, when did that huge convo happen Pesco? I want in on these things :]

a lot of Touhou Labyrinth discussion between Rikter, Pesco, NeoSerela and myself take place in IRC. We may or may not be all on at the same time, I was most likely asleep when that conversation happened for instance

[Rikter]

Half of the stuff from me is stupid comments and oh no I have been killed by *insert boss name or other name here* and Reimu hit level x.

Also Mr. Man is still annoying

[MysTeariousYukari]

a lot of Touhou Labyrinth discussion between Rikter, Pesco, NeoSerela and myself take place in IRC. We may or may not be all on at the same time, I was most likely asleep when that conversation happened for instance

I likely sound like an idiot here, but what's IRC? I've heard the term before, but never knew what it was...

[Ghaleon]

I likely sound like an idiot here, but what's IRC? I've heard the term before, but never knew what it was...

It's like CPMC, only EVEN DUMBER!!! Ok I'm trolling >=P

Seriously, it's like a live chatroom thing, with text instead of voices I mean. I think most of this community originated as IRC users, but I'm not sure about that.

Here's some irc info
http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16.0.html

I've been on the channel linked on that several times, and I see people, but nobody says shit there. People only seem to talk in the meido channel, which wasn't easy to find. I'm not really sure why it's not advertised or whatever.

[Esoterica]

I likely sound like an idiot here, but what's IRC? I've heard the term before, but never knew what it was...

Internet Relay Chat.  Or something like that.  Basically, a chat room.

Outside of that, what Ghaleon said.

[yoshicookiezeus]

Beat up Great Stamp (with the help of backup healing from Sanae and some nature resistance gear, Meiling and Remilia had no trouble staying alive to switch in nukers), finished up the exploration of 16F, and discovered that my party still isn't strong enough to take on either Flandre or Yukari. I guess this means that it's finally time for my first (unless you count two levels for Youmu) grinding session of this playthrough... Oh well. I still need a whole lot of BP for recruiting Kaguya, so this seems as good a time as any to rack up some.

EDIT: Having finally defeated Flandre after many times of getting wiped by Laevatein, I went straight on to Yukari , and won on my first try without a single casualty. Reimu level 80, no Tenshi or Suwako used (or Marisa, since I completely forgot about her after Concentrating :V). I don't get why the wiki strategy doesn't mention Reisen and her Discarder; using it to keep all of Yukari's stats close to -50% throughout the entire battle made it almost ridiculously trivial. And two Spear the Gungnirs plus one unbuffed Linear Gun was enough to take down the last form just after Barrier Release.

Still no Kaguya though...

[Serela]

The wiki strategy doesn't suggest Reisen? That's messed up. Reisen and then either Cirno or Suika should be VIP in that fight, along with a recommendation of Wriggle or Suwako, with Kaguya more then doubling Suwako's effectiveness.

[Esoterica]

My strategy for that fight:

Suika: Black Hole at the beginning for speed debuff
Youmu: Flashing Cherry Blossoms
Suwako: Croaking Frog
Kaguya: Cowrie Shell
Sanae: Occasional buff
Everyone else: lol

[Garlyle]

Suika: Black Hole at the beginning for speed debuff

This is inefficient, Cirno can do it faster.

Also most people seem to lock her down with Komachi instead.

Also, chances are whenever that was written, everyone was still under the impression Reisen was a useless rabbit only good for her sex appeal.

[Serela]

Cirno has a higher SPD but Suika can actually, y'know, do stuff other then SPD debuff. And she has a NTR attack, although it's not her nuke, but with her self-buff it shouldn't be too bad against Yukari.

Komachi is a worse alternative to using Reisen, but it works. She'll run out of SP a lot faster though,. and can't buff her SPD for after Djinn Storms, which really helps Reisen a lot in this fight.

[Parallaxal]

Yeah, Reisen definitely needs more respect. She absolutely destroyed 16F boss for Team Unappreciated. The great thing about Discarder is that it lowers offensive as well as defensive and speed stats, unlike Komachi's spell. A boss's nukes aren't so threatening if they're kept at -40% MAG, you know.

And contrary to what some believe, debuffs still remain reasonably viable for many battles even after 16F. Some are under this notion that debuffs are worthless after 18F (who is infamously immune to all status and debuff effects), when in fact there are plenty of bosses that are vulnerable to them, some dreadfully so.

Cosmic - Lacks all resistance to debuffs.

Aria-singing Torustory - Very easy to destroy is MAG stat and render its attacks pathetically weak, just one of the reasons why it's considered the weakest of the final boss's summons.

Beast of Centuarea - Remarkably low debuff resistance, especially for a Bloodstained Seal boss.

Bloody Papa - Even lower debuff resistance than the Beast of Centaurea. Don't expect the MND debuff to help your magic hurt him, though, but the DEF, SPD, and especially MAG debuffs could mean life or death here.

Agastobruama - For a Plus Disk boss, he's got pathetic resistance to debuffs. It seems almost every boss that gets Strengthen Jutsu is also cripplingly weak to debuffs.

Kedamagrammaton - Its debuff resistance drops to 0 while its charging up for its multi-turn Rankain attack. Spiking its MAG with Renko just before it goes off will severely weaken Rankain's power, not to mention bringing its massive 320,000 DEF/MND down to more reasonable levels.

In fact, the only bosses that are immune to debuffs after 18F are Rainbow Phoenix (who even remembers this one?), Shikieiki, Utsuho, and that floor 1 Bloodstained Seal boss with the really long name. Every other boss ranges from average boss debuff resistance (Yuka, most Plus Disk sigil guardians) to high but still doable (Hibachi, Serpent of Chaos, even the **WINNER**).

[Esoterica]

The great thing about Discarder is that it lowers offensive as well as defensive and speed stats, unlike Komachi's spell.

Wait, I thought Komachi's had a chance for debuffs on all stats, plus PSN and PAR?

[Parallaxal]

Wait, I thought Komachi's had a chance for debuffs on all stats, plus PSN and PAR?

Nope. Narrow Confines doesn't touch ATK or MAG. And honestly, I think hitting those stats would be more useful than DEF or MND, except in rare instances (like Tenshi).

[Esoterica]

Nope. Narrow Confines doesn't touch ATK or MAG

Seriously?

I just lost a lot of interest in using Komachi more this playthrough.

[Serela]

Huh, now that I think about it, Komachi's debuff doesn't do that. I remember using Alice's Seeker Dolls to debuff Yukari's MAG on my first run, over half a year ago, actually ;P Komachi is really better much used as an attacker then a tanker+supporter, IMO.

Yeah, Alice's (for a while) unique ability to debuff ATK/MAG is really useful. Great Stamp is a wonderful example of this. (Reisen doesn't work because the SPD debuff will cause Huge Earthquake spam, although Mokou I suppose would work) And I suppose that's an upper for Maribel too, especially if you're spamming her lower delay single target move.

Just like Maribel reminds me of Reisen, Mokou does remind me of Alice. Atk/Mag debuff, nice FIR attack, good DEF on a mag user... Mokou has better HP while Alice has much better MND, though. And Mokou's nuke is multitarget while Alice's is single and has the atk-debuff. IMO having the higher MND is better because you'll usually have Mokou in the back anyway. And then Alice is more often useful for random clearing with the ability to target DEF or MND along with non-elementals. Both of them kinda fall behind in damage though... in this run, I'll probably replace Alice with Yuka when I get her. Her FIR nuke and MND will be great for the fight.

Almost finished with 19F... 19F is a breath of fresh air after all these other floors; fairly easy randoms, no gimmick, just smooth sailing and the excitement of the final floor ahead.

[Parallaxal]

I agree with the Mokou-Alice comparison. Elsewhere yesterday I made that exact same observation, as they're both mages with above-average survivability, good versatility against trash, minor debuffs, and reliance on Fire as their best nuke. Kanako's also kind fo similar, if you think about it.

Yeah, Alice's (for a while) unique ability to debuff ATK/MAG is really useful. Great Stamp is a wonderful example of this. (Reisen doesn't work because the SPD debuff will cause Huge Earthquake spam, although Mokou I suppose would work)

*cough*