Author Topic: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition  (Read 33985 times)

The Greatest Dog

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #180 on: June 17, 2010, 03:38:38 AM »
I take back what I said before about Kirby.

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Thanks to his versatile yarn composition, Kirby can take on a variety of forms both in his common actions and when he transforms into powerful vehicles. When Kirby dashes, he zips around as a car. In water, he turns into a submarine. At times he can even transform into a massive robotic tank, a UFO and other vehicles.

Ability copying seems to be nonexistent.

But...

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Two players can play through the entire game together (additional accessories required and are sold separately).

helvetica

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #181 on: June 17, 2010, 04:01:46 AM »
Aww no more Kirby vacuum, but the co-op is nice.  It still looks absolutely adorable.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Matsuri

Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #182 on: June 17, 2010, 04:14:10 AM »
I don't see why it's such a big deal to leave abilities and stuff out of Kirby. Using the same formula would definitely get stale after so long, so I'm willing to welcome something new-- especially since I find the game itself to be so charming <3

Third Eye Lem

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #183 on: June 17, 2010, 08:11:12 AM »
I don't see why it's such a big deal to leave abilities and stuff out of Kirby. Using the same formula would definitely get stale after so long, so I'm willing to welcome something new-- especially since I find the game itself to be so charming <3
Indeed, but in all honesty I was hoping for that Super Star-style game that was announced for the Gamecube a while ago. Maybe it mutated into this?

As for the other games...

Golden Sun DS- Looks nice, but I'm gonna miss the 2D style of the other two. Let's hope the plot holds up this time, the previous one left some threads hanging.

Donkey Kong Country Returns- I know I'm not a DK fan but OMG I WANT THIS GAME SO BADLY. It looks incredibly badass.

Need for Speed Hot Pursuit- I loved the original NFSHP, and this one looks like a lot of fun too.

Metroid Other M- Some may be skeptical of the new control scheme, but I'm willing to give it a shot. A Charge Beam shot! XP

Kid Icarus Uprising- Eh, I know people are gonna bawwww because it's not a 2D platformer, but I could care less because I'm not that interested in it (sorry, fans).

Zelda Skyward Sword- Looks nice, I like the mesh of TP's and WW's art styles. It sucks that you need the Wiimotion Plus, but eh. I live with it.

Sorcery- I was kind of "meh" about the whole PS Move thing, but after seeing this, I feel differently about it. It's nice you can cast spells without consuming MP, more games need to cut the resource link like this one!

Rabbids Travel Through Time- At first, I was all like "are they going into the internet now?" but then I saw the rest of it, and I LOL'd. Looks like fun, but we'll have to see.

Rayman Origins- Dammit, I missed this one. All I know is that it's 2D. Ubisoft better not mess it up.

Mario Sports- Eh, new sports are nice but I never really got into this game series.

Bulletstorm- The only FPS worth my eyes, it looks like fun. I just hope we won't end up trying to leech every enemy for skill points, that's never fun.

Overall, E3 put on a good show. I didn't see the Microsoft stuff, sadly, but I can live with that.

Helion

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #184 on: June 17, 2010, 10:15:28 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtKMqdMWNec

Konami did the funniest thing, I think.

Barrakketh

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #185 on: June 17, 2010, 11:19:08 AM »
Basically all they're doing is taking a 800x480 screen, and interleaving every other pixel and polarizing it so it shows the two split images.  So imagine a checkerboard where every white space is polarized to show up in your left eye, and every black space is polarized to show up in your right.  That's basically how the 3D effect works.  So in reality you're getting a quarter of the quality as much as you would have normally gotten.
Half.  The display is 800x240, the horizontal resolution is what is split between your eyes.

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Honestly it's the most disappointing thing of the 3DS, how stupid low the resolution is.  It's frankly cheating.  Hell the PSP still has a higher resolution and better GPU than the 3DS, and it's what, 5-6 years old now?  Fuck this 3D gimmick, they should have just made the screen 800x480 and left it 2D and it would have been so much better.
I'm not seeing this, especially your comments about the PSP.





Looks better than the PS2 and PSP IMO.

   

Screen resolution only really matters to a point based on physical size and viewing distance.  As far as I'm concerned "high enough" of a resolution is one where jaggies aren't a problem when viewed in person, and AA can help with that as well.
Cheating? I cannot even wrap my head around the point of it. Wouldn't you know you had cheated? How on Earth could you maintain crisp certainty of your superiority to all others? And if you're unable to do that, what's the point of anything?

helvetica

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #186 on: June 17, 2010, 01:49:54 PM »
Half.  The display is 800x240, the horizontal resolution is what is split between your eyes.
I'm not seeing this, especially your comments about the PSP.

Oh so they're literally just doing "this half goes to your left, and this to your right" instead of interlacing?  That's retarded =|

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Looks better than the PS2 and PSP IMO.

   

Screen resolution only really matters to a point based on physical size and viewing distance.  As far as I'm concerned "high enough" of a resolution is one where jaggies aren't a problem when viewed in person, and AA can help with that as well.

No shit it looks better than the PSP/PS2, because it's running at HALF THE RESOLUTION.  It only has to render a little over a fourth the amount of pixels a PSP/PS2 has to.  And it does matter a lot IMHO.  My phone is 864x480 and I can definitely tell the distance hobbling over to my DS at a paltry 260x192.  Clever AA can't make up for the fact there just isn't that many pixels being rendered per frame.  It's low-resolution garbage IMHO, and it's nothing more than a marketing gimmick to say "IT'S BETTER THAN A PS2" or whatever.

We have the hardware and the screens to be able to push 800x480, and it's not much to ask for.  I'm not expecting 720p here.  Just maybe can we get a handheld that has the same level of hardware as a 10 year old console?


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


lumber_of_the_beast

Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #187 on: June 17, 2010, 02:42:06 PM »
Meh. Looks fine to me.

Barrakketh

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #188 on: June 17, 2010, 03:16:33 PM »
Oh so they're literally just doing "this half goes to your left, and this to your right" instead of interlacing?  That's retarded =|
Not really.  That's just how these things work, especially if they're using a parallax barrier.  I see no advantage in splitting the vertical resolution.  Interlacing is generally stupid and an artifact from the CRT era (that's why LCDs have to deinterlace material prior to being displayed, which gives you input lag).

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It's low-resolution garbage IMHO
Then don't buy one.

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We have the hardware and the screens to be able to push 800x480, and it's not much to ask for.  I'm not expecting 720p here.  Just maybe can we get a handheld that has the same level of hardware as a 10 year old console?
No.  There are practical concerns like battery life and cost.

Did you know that there was another handheld released around the same time as the DS that had a bigger high-resolution screen and PS2-ish graphics?  It's the failure known as the PSP.  They basically did what you are asking for, and the market didn't buy into it.  UMD as a format was a disaster.

Nintendo isn't stupid.  They do some really dumb things (the DS/Wii friend code bullshit), but they aren't going to push out another PSP/early-life PS3 (599 US Dollars) to the market.  Especially in this economy.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 03:19:36 PM by Barrakketh »
Cheating? I cannot even wrap my head around the point of it. Wouldn't you know you had cheated? How on Earth could you maintain crisp certainty of your superiority to all others? And if you're unable to do that, what's the point of anything?

helvetica

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #189 on: June 17, 2010, 03:58:57 PM »
Not really.  That's just how these things work, especially if they're using a parallax barrier.  I see no advantage in splitting the vertical resolution.  Interlacing is generally stupid and an artifact from the CRT era (that's why LCDs have to deinterlace material prior to being displayed, which gives you input lag).

Vertical resolution is better perceived than horizontal.  Adding a few pixels to each edge is negligable, it's the increase of vertical lines that makes a far bigger difference in detail.  As for the interlacing comment I was just unsure how they were delivering the two polarized images.  I just figured they were interlacing because 800x480 screens are far more common than an 800x240 one.

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Then don't buy one.

I'm not at this point, as I'm not seeing any tangible upgrade over the DS other than 3DDDDDDDDD and a couple of crappy sub megapixel cameras.

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No.  There are practical concerns like battery life and cost.

Hahahah cost.  Nintendo is the only console manufacturer that makes a profit off of hardware sales.  Both Sony and MS sell their consoles below cost and make the margin up with software sales.  Cost isn't even a factor here.  And the only reason they're able to do that is because they're using outdated tech and slapping on a few gimmicks and claiming it's NEW AND EXCITING.  It's not that hard to make an obscene profit margin on hardware when you're not actually doing anything new.

As for battery life, that point is moot too.  Anything over 8 hours is frankly unnecessary.  Since the GBA we've been using rechargable batteries for handhelds.  There's no need for a handheld that gets 72 hours between charges when at most 1% of owners would be without a means to charge it for that long.

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Did you know that there was another handheld released around the same time as the DS that had a bigger high-resolution screen and PS2-ish graphics?  It's the failure known as the PSP.  They basically did what you are asking for, and the market didn't buy into it.  UMD as a format was a disaster.

Failure?  UMD only failed as a MOVIE format.  It's done very well as a game media format.  It is still very much cost competitive with the flash media the 3DS is going to use.  If you consider that Nintendo has basically been the undisputed ruler of handhelds since the Gameboy came out in the 80s, having a handheld that didn't immediately flop in 3 months is amazing.  The PSP has carved out a decent market and is doing very well for itself.  It is still getting regular titles, and is now even getting a replacement in development.

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Nintendo isn't stupid.  They do some really dumb things (the DS/Wii friend code bullshit), but they aren't going to push out another PSP/early-life PS3 (599 US Dollars) to the market.  Especially in this economy.

Maybe I'm just yearning for the old Nintendo that actually used to push the barriers of console tech instead of packaging last decade's tech with a few marketing gimmicks.  Between the Wii and this, I am frankly sick of Nintendo's new "models".  The N64 was the first truely 3D console, and first to embrace multiple movement inputs (DPad  + analog stick).  The DS was revolutionary when it came out.  Noone had done a touchscreen on a handheld, let alone two screens.  And both were probably the most powerful members of their respective generations in terms of graphical horsepower.

3D?  It's just the latest marketing fad that has pushed through Hollywood and will eventually be ignored.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 04:04:28 PM by ♪ Matsuoka Miu ♫ »


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Nobu

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #190 on: June 17, 2010, 04:01:08 PM »
It's the failure known as the PSP.

Hey, don't be ragging on my portable Monster Hunter machine. :derp:
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Barrakketh

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #192 on: June 17, 2010, 04:44:00 PM »
Vertical resolution is better perceived than horizontal.  Adding a few pixels to each edge is negligable, it's the increase of vertical lines that makes a far bigger difference in detail.
I don't see that being the case.  Pixel density, on the other hand...
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As for the interlacing comment I was just unsure how they were delivering the two polarized images.  I just figured they were interlacing because 800x480 screens are far more common than an 800x240 one.
This is just a guess based on the fact that this method would play nicely with the slider that lets you adjust the effect:



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Hahahah cost.  Nintendo is the only console manufacturer that makes a profit off of hardware sales.  Both Sony and MS sell their consoles below cost and make the margin up with software sales.  Cost isn't even a factor here.
Sure it is.  Cost control is how Nintendo prints money.  It's how they still made a profit during the N64 and GCN eras and kept afloat as a company.  Smart business practices are why Nintendo has had one unprofitable quarter in the history of the company.

You say Sony and MS make up the margin with software sales, but that's a short sighted view of things.  It took Sony and Microsoft years to turn a profit, and just because they eventually started making money (as opposed to losing it) doesn't mean much when you consider how much they lost.  Sony basically lost all of the money they made during the PS2 era because of the PS3 and then some, and still haven't (and probably never will) make it back.  The 360 isn't much better off.

If neither company had other divisions to prop up their gaming business they would be dead.  Nintendo does gaming and only gaming.  They don't sell operating systems or music players or TVs.

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As for battery life, that point is moot too.  Anything over 8 hours is frankly unnecessary.  Since the GBA we've been using rechargable batteries for handhelds.  There's no need for a handheld that gets 72 hours between charges when at most 1% of owners would be without a means to charge it for that long.
We had first-party rechargeable solutions for the original Gameboy.  It was an external battery that you plugged into the power adapter slot.

But you say "anything over 8 hours" is unnecessary and seemingly forget how poor the PSP's battery life is.  One of the early (if not launch) racing games would kill the battery within two and a half hours if were using the wireless.

Depending on the CPU needs of the game, wireless use, and UMD use, it can kill its battery pretty quickly.  I know there are ways to run games off of the memory stick, but last I checked that's generally used by pirates and not an official installation method for UMD games.

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Failure?  UMD only failed as a MOVIE format.  It's done very well as a game media format.  It is still very much cost competitive with the flash media the 3DS is going to use.
Done "very well"?  I guess you could say that "it works" for the PSP but other then cost I don't see it having any advantages over the DS/3DS cards, and the 3DS cards available for developers at launch will have more capacity than a dual-layer UMD disc.

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If you consider that Nintendo has basically been the undisputed ruler of handhelds since the Gameboy came out in the 80s, having a handheld that didn't immediately flop in 3 months is amazing.  The PSP has carved out a decent market and is doing very well for itself.  It is still getting regular titles, and is now even getting a replacement in development.
It's market is a bit strange, because the PSP hardware is far more popular than software sales would suggest.  Which is to say that piracy far outstrips software sales, and PSPs jailbroken for homebrew and emulation use seem to be more common than stock PSPs.

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Maybe I'm just yearning for the old Nintendo that actually used to push the barriers of console tech instead of packaging last decade's tech with a few marketing gimmicks.  Between the Wii and this, I am frankly sick of Nintendo's new "models".  The N64 was the first truely 3D console, and first to embrace multiple movement inputs (DPad  + analog stick).  The DS was revolutionary when it came out.  Noone had done a touchscreen on a handheld, let alone two screens.  And both were probably the most powerful members of their respective generations in terms of graphical horsepower.
While waggle is generally overrated, the pointer on the Wi remote is the controller's best feature.  It's a far better FPS controller than dual-analog and second only to the keyboard and mouse IMO.

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3D?  It's just the latest marketing fad that has pushed through Hollywood and will eventually be ignored.
We'll see how well that statement holds up after the 3DS comes out.  People were ragging on the DS's touchscreen and waggle when the Wii came out, and both are huge successes.

Hey, don't be ragging on my portable Monster Hunter machine. :derp:
Hey, it gets some good exclusives :V
Cheating? I cannot even wrap my head around the point of it. Wouldn't you know you had cheated? How on Earth could you maintain crisp certainty of your superiority to all others? And if you're unable to do that, what's the point of anything?

helvetica

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #193 on: June 17, 2010, 05:59:48 PM »
I don't see that being the case.  Pixel density, on the other hand...This is just a guess based on the fact that this method would play nicely with the slider that lets you adjust the effect:

It's been proven in multiple double blind trials that people notice changes in vertical resolution far more than horizontal resolution.  And at the viewing distance you're playing a handheld at a vast majority can tell the difference between 240 lines of vertical resolution and 720 or even 480.  You would have to be about 10 feet away from the console screen to not be able to perceive the difference between 240 and 480.

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Sure it is.  Cost control is how Nintendo prints money.  It's how they still made a profit during the N64 and GCN eras and kept afloat as a company.  Smart business practices are why Nintendo has had one unprofitable quarter in the history of the company.

Yet even with "cost controls" the N64 was still a revolutionary console.  The GCN was a little more conservative but it also came into the game later and had the benefit of watching how badly the PS2 was doing with wonky architectures.  The Wii adds nothing to the table other than waggle and is just an overclocked GCN.  Even though the SNES is basically the same thing (an overclocked NES), it at least added revolutionary new 2D methods like Mode7.

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You say Sony and MS make up the margin with software sales, but that's a short sighted view of things.  It took Sony and Microsoft years to turn a profit, and just because they eventually started making money (as opposed to losing it) doesn't mean much when you consider how much they lost.  Sony basically lost all of the money they made during the PS2 era because of the PS3 and then some, and still haven't (and probably never will) make it back.  The 360 isn't much better off.

A friend of mine (and a huge finance/econ buff), explained to me pretty clearly what Sony is doing for the PS3.  It knew it was going to be a painful painful transition to a new platform, especially one so markedly different than the previous gen.  So it hedged its bets on this gen being a shakedown.  It bought into Cell, and promoted the fuck out of it.  It now owns a foundry just for producing them.  And now third parties have started getting used to the PS3's architecture.  The Move release seems half-assed because it is half-assed, it's literally just a trial run.  They're basically just marketing it as Wii HD, to tap into the market Nintendo is intentionally leaving behind with their inferior product, the casual sector that does like shinies as well as waggle fun.

This is all just a shakedown and warmup for the PS4.  The PS4 is likely to be based on Cell as well, with the major upgrade coming to the RSX unit rather than the CPU cores.  They'll probably throw one or two more SPUs into the package, bump up the clock, and bump the memory up, and call it a day.  Whereas Nintendo is going to have to struggle to find a new architecture (the Wii/GCN hardware is at its limits, and doesn't even have facilities such as virtualization support).  And MS is completely ignoring the casual market, so Move has absolutely nothing to worry about from there.  MS backed itself into a corner catering just to hardcores because it's basically already tapped out the maximum potential of the console, and there's still probably 2 or 3 more years to go.

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If neither company had other divisions to prop up their gaming business they would be dead.  Nintendo does gaming and only gaming.  They don't sell operating systems or music players or TVs.

Erm no.  Nintendo is just in it for the quick cash.  Sony and MS are hedging their bets for the future.  Sony is making a direct attack at Nintendo's market with Move, and MS has already all but completely consumed the hardcore market in NA/AU/EU.  Nintendo will win this gen, there's no doubt about that, but their future prospects aren't exactly guaranteed at this point.

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We had first-party rechargeable solutions for the original Gameboy.  It was an external battery that you plugged into the power adapter slot.

No shit, I had one.  I'm talking about having the console built around it.

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But you say "anything over 8 hours" is unnecessary and seemingly forget how poor the PSP's battery life is.  One of the early (if not launch) racing games would kill the battery within two and a half hours if were using the wireless.

No I didn't forget about it.  There's no denying that the PSP had hardware design faults at launch, namely the poor UMD locking mechanism, the horrible DPAD switch placement, and the fragile screen.  But those got resolved and now the PSP has a very solid following.

Sony is the first manufacturer to take on Nintendo's complete monopoly of the handheld market, and not completely fold in 3 months.  That's astonishing given how much of a stranglehold Nintendo had with the Gameboy, and how much other companies have failed to introduce competitors.

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Depending on the CPU needs of the game, wireless use, and UMD use, it can kill its battery pretty quickly.  I know there are ways to run games off of the memory stick, but last I checked that's generally used by pirates and not an official installation method for UMD games.

Uhh the PSP Go completely ditched the UMD drive and uses flash memory exclusively for game storage.  Ironically it is failing hard because it lacks the UMD drive, to the point Sony has given up promoting it and is promoting the older PSP designs.  UMD is far from dead, even with the falling price of flash it is still far cheaper to press a UMD disc than to write to memstick.  It also has the advantages over download-only releases in allowing people to trade and resell their old games, something that cannot be discounted.

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Done "very well"?  I guess you could say that "it works" for the PSP but other then cost I don't see it having any advantages over the DS/3DS cards, and the 3DS cards available for developers at launch will have more capacity than a dual-layer UMD disc.

Capacity isn't the only thing that matters.  If that were the case consoles would have moved to flash drives and stuff years ago... yet they haven't.  Pressing a disc is still infinitely cheaper than building a cartridge.  And there is no reason we can't have multi UMD disc games, like we've had for consoles for decades.

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It's market is a bit strange, because the PSP hardware is far more popular than software sales would suggest.  Which is to say that piracy far outstrips software sales, and PSPs jailbroken for homebrew and emulation use seem to be more common than stock PSPs.

More like Sony marketed it as more than just a game playing unit, but as a mobile entertainment unit.  I probably use my PSP for more movie watching than I do game playing, even with the huge number of emulators at my disposal.  And Sony knows this, and it's why they're not too upset the market has moved towards that way, and why you hardly see PSP game promos nowadays.

Companies like Sony have the flexibility to be able to do that.  Nintendo is so ingrained in YOU ONLY USE MY CONSOLE FOR GAMES, that it's frankly boring nowadays.  Basically the only reason I'm interested in a 3DS is for the homebrew possibilities, as none of the DS titles ever struck me as a mustbuy.

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While waggle is generally overrated, the pointer on the Wi remote is the controller's best feature.  It's a far better FPS controller than dual-analog and second only to the keyboard and mouse IMO.

Err, the Wii's pointer detection is horribly inaccurate and painful to use.  Holding a controller like a remote is actually not that ergonomically good of a position, and it frankly gets tiring after a while.  Knock the dual-analog stick design all you want, but frankly it's the best compromise between comfort, usability, and playability.  Mouse/KB may be far better in a control sense, but it's also unwieldy and impractical to use from anything except a desk.

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We'll see how well that statement holds up after the 3DS comes out.  People were ragging on the DS's touchscreen and waggle when the Wii came out, and both are huge successes.

Honestly, it'll probably be a commercial success, but all it's going to do is dilute the market with even more shovelware.  Look at the huuuuuuuuuuuuge percentage of shovelware titles for the DS and Wii.  Is that something you really want to succeed?


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Barrakketh

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #194 on: June 17, 2010, 06:54:48 PM »
Yet even with "cost controls" the N64 was still a revolutionary console.  The GCN was a little more conservative but it also came into the game later and had the benefit of watching how badly the PS2 was doing with wonky architectures.
And both the N64 and GCN did poorly compared to the PS1/PS2.  Many people were wondering if Nintendo was going to pull a Sega and leave the hardware business, but at least they had their successful portables.

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A friend of mine (and a huge finance/econ buff), explained to me pretty clearly what Sony is doing for the PS3.  It knew it was going to be a painful painful transition to a new platform, especially one so markedly different than the previous gen.  So it hedged its bets on this gen being a shakedown.
Which sounds like bullshit.  If you listened to anything the executives and spokespersons from Sony were saying, or the industry analysts, they were clearly betting on the PlayStation brand and PS2 owner loyalty in carrying them through.

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It bought into Cell, and promoted the fuck out of it.  It now owns a foundry just for producing them.
According to this Sony sold their production facilities for Cell and RSX to Toshiba.  So much for that!

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Whereas Nintendo is going to have to struggle to find a new architecture (the Wii/GCN hardware is at its limits, and doesn't even have facilities such as virtualization support).
I doubt Nintendo is going to "struggle" to find anything.  Since the N64 days they've had their GPUs custom designed by ATI (formerly ArtX), so it's not like they are lacking in expertise in GPU design.

The GCN and Wii's CPU were custom designs by IBM built on the POWER/PPC architecture, though Nintendo may choose a different direction. But guess what other consoles have used a POWER-based CPU?  The 360's CPU and the PS3 (via the PPE in Cell) both do, so Nintendo's competitors seem to be doing fine with that.  Those were made by IBM as well...

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Sony is making a direct attack at Nintendo's market with Move
And yet before Sony bought into Move they were saying that the PS3 and Wii weren't even in the same market and that motion controls were a gimmick.  Lawl.

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UMD is far from dead, even with the falling price of flash it is still far cheaper to press a UMD disc than to write to memstick.  It also has the advantages over download-only releases in allowing people to trade and resell their old games, something that cannot be discounted.

Capacity isn't the only thing that matters.  If that were the case consoles would have moved to flash drives and stuff years ago... yet they haven't.  Pressing a disc is still infinitely cheaper than building a cartridge.  And there is no reason we can't have multi UMD disc games, like we've had for consoles for decades.
So back to my question, does UMD have any advantages over the DS/3DS carts other than cost?  And you can even resell those!

And even though the discs may be cheaper to press, I haven't really noticed those saving being passed onto consumers.

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Nintendo is so ingrained in YOU ONLY USE MY CONSOLE FOR GAMES, that it's frankly boring nowadays
:derp:

My consoles get used for games, and only games.  HTPCs work wonderfully well for everything else, and I don't have to worry about things like my subtitles not working correctly since so many solutions for streaming to your consoles manage to fuck it up righteously.

One of the announcements for the 3DS was movies being made available for it.  It'll be interesting to see how that is actually delivered even though it's not something I'm interested in.

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Err, the Wii's pointer detection is horribly inaccurate and painful to use.
Wut?

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Holding a controller like a remote is actually not that ergonomically good of a position, and it frankly gets tiring after a while.
The Wii's remote is one hell of a lot more comfortable than the DualShock controllers, and my only complaint is that it and the nunchuck aren't bigger.

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Honestly, it'll probably be a commercial success, but all it's going to do is dilute the market with even more shovelware.  Look at the huuuuuuuuuuuuge percentage of shovelware titles for the DS and Wii.  Is that something you really want to succeed?
If people want to pay for garbage, they are more than welcome to.  You could've said the same thing about the PS2 when it reigned supreme.

So long as games that I like keep being made, I'm fine with ignoring the shovelware.  I'm pretty excited about the 3DS lineup, but maybe you consider the SMT series shovelware or something...
Cheating? I cannot even wrap my head around the point of it. Wouldn't you know you had cheated? How on Earth could you maintain crisp certainty of your superiority to all others? And if you're unable to do that, what's the point of anything?

helvetica

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #195 on: June 17, 2010, 07:39:29 PM »
And both the N64 and GCN did poorly compared to the PS1/PS2.  Many people were wondering if Nintendo was going to pull a Sega and leave the hardware business, but at least they had their successful portables.

The N64 was a "flop" commercially because Nintendo made the same mistake Sega did, hoarding the devkits to themselves instead of fostering a good third party market.  Sony was honestly the first console dev to actively flirt with and try to woo in third party developers, and its successes during the PS1/PS2 days show that.

GCN did ok for itself, but was just overshadowed by the ridiculous success the PS2 was.  Better than the first Xbox that's for sure.

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Which sounds like bullshit.  If you listened to anything the executives and spokespersons from Sony were saying, or the industry analysts, they were clearly betting on the PlayStation brand and PS2 owner loyalty in carrying them through.

And it has.  The PS3 had a really shaky launch, probably one of the worst ever, and now it's nipping at the heels of the 360 and is likely to surpass it very soon.  Once the third parties got used to the architecture, it has really taken off.  Several real smart decisions, such as the Slim relaunch and , will help it even further.

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According to this Sony sold their production facilities for Cell and RSX to Toshiba.  So much for that!

Sony's massive investment in Cell is going to pay off for the PS4.  The sell off of their stuff to Toshiba was just financial footwork, as foundries are traditionally very expensive capital-wise and tend to not pay themselves off for a few years.  They basically bought off Toshiba and got them to buy into the Bluray standard and to using Cell processors in all their TVs and settop boxes in exchange for letting them own the foundries.

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I doubt Nintendo is going to "struggle" to find anything.  Since the N64 days they've had their GPUs custom designed by ATI (formerly ArtX), so it's not like they are lacking in expertise in GPU design.

The GCN and Wii's CPU were custom designs by IBM built on the POWER/PPC architecture, though Nintendo may choose a different direction. But guess what other consoles have used a POWER-based CPU?  The 360's CPU and the PS3 (via the PPE in Cell) both do, so Nintendo's competitors seem to be doing fine with that.  Those were made by IBM as well...

The problem isn't finding hardware, it's the platform they've put out.  The Wii has no hypervisor, no capabilities for virtualization.  They only hit the ground running for software devs because basically there was ZERO change between the GCN and Wii, so they really didn't have to do anything.

The problem is the devs are used to coding on a system where they basically have full control of the hardware, with no virtualization.  Virtualization forces you to stick to standard APIs and shy away from "hacks" and other undocumented features in your code.  This allows it to be a lot easier to make the games forwards compatible with the next system generation.  It also allows console devs to backport features that weren't available at launch. 

Look at Sony's big announcement that Move will be supported in much older titles such as RE5, Resistance, etc.  The Wii can't do that without pressing new CDs.  Imagine how much more successful the WiiMotionPlus would have been if they could have backported it to like Twilight Princess.  Same with things like Wii Speak.

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And yet before Sony bought into Move they were saying that the PS3 and Wii weren't even in the same market and that motion controls were a gimmick.  Lawl.

They are a gimmick.  It's why Sony is halfassing Move, unlike Microsoft who seems to be betting the farm on Kinect.  But it's a gimmick that sells units, and Sony is looking purely to brand penetration at this stage of the game, to set themselves up for the next generation.  They're looking to beat Nintendo out to making a "Wii HD".

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So back to my question, does UMD have any advantages over the DS/3DS carts other than cost?  And you can even resell those!

I don't think you understand the price discrepancy.  Most flash chips with the same capacity of UMDs are going to be in the 5-10 dollar range per chip, even at bulk pricing.  A UMD?  Probably pennies.  It's a huge margin change when you're talking about software sales in hundreds of thousands to millions.

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And even though the discs may be cheaper to press, I haven't really noticed those saving being passed onto consumers.

Of course not, but it makes the format far more attractive to publishers as they don't have as much manufacturing losses and can afford to have more aggressive pricing if necessary.

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My consoles get used for games, and only games.  HTPCs work wonderfully well for everything else, and I don't have to worry about things like my subtitles not working correctly since so many solutions for streaming to your consoles manage to fuck it up righteously.

Maybe I'm getting old but I don't like having twelve boxes that all only do one thing each.  I like having choice and functionality beyond "it's a nice paperweight!" when I'm not in the mood to play.  If I'm already paying 300-400 bucks for a console, is it really that much to ask for it to do more than just play games, especially in this day and age?

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One of the announcements for the 3DS was movies being made available for it.  It'll be interesting to see how that is actually delivered even though it's not something I'm interested in.

At 400x240?  Hah.  You thought UMD flopped bad this is going to be godawful.

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Wut?

I don't play 2 inches away from my sensor bar, and I just find the pointer interface painful to use and clunky as hell.

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The Wii's remote is one hell of a lot more comfortable than the DualShock controllers, and my only complaint is that it and the nunchuck aren't bigger.

The Dualshock controller is garbage, I don't know of anyone willing to go up to bat for one.  The 360 controller is far better, and would be perfect if it didn't have such a stupid DPAD on it.

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If people want to pay for garbage, they are more than welcome to.  You could've said the same thing about the PS2 when it reigned supreme.

The PS2 had a much higher proportion of good titles vs shovelware than the DS and Wii ever hope to.  I haven't even gotten close to playing all the great games PS2 had to offer, yet I can count on my hand how many good Wii or DS titles there are.

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So long as games that I like keep being made, I'm fine with ignoring the shovelware.  I'm pretty excited about the 3DS lineup, but maybe you consider the SMT series shovelware or something...

There's no indication if those are launch, near-launch or just big "maybe if we feel like doing it in a few years" titles.  I seriously doubt those are all launch titles.  That being said, Nintendo is notorious for having a fantastic launch lineup and then failing to have anything meaningful for a few years.  N64 and GCN had two of the best console launches ever, Super Mario 64 is likely the best launch title period.  But then look at the slide shortly after.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Barrakketh

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #196 on: June 17, 2010, 09:39:13 PM »
The N64 was a "flop" commercially because Nintendo made the same mistake Sega did, hoarding the devkits to themselves instead of fostering a good third party market.
I don't recall the problem being devkit hoarding.  It was partly the increased cost (and reduced margins) from sticking with cartridges (especially for larger games), but more-so that Nintendo was still being as draconian with their approval processes as they were back in the NES/SNES days.

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GCN did ok for itself, but was just overshadowed by the ridiculous success the PS2 was.  Better than the first Xbox that's for sure.
Oh, you silly goose.  Read this and this.  According to Nintendo's sales document and Microsoft's press release the original Xbox outsold the GameCube.  That's kinda depressing when you think about it.

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And it has.  The PS3 had a really shaky launch, probably one of the worst ever, and now it's nipping at the heels of the 360 and is likely to surpass it very soon.
A more likely answer is that the 360 market is mostly saturated as more and more people that want one already own the console, especially since it was released earlier than the PS3 (plus the PS3 was horrendously overpriced at launch, putting off potential early adopters).  It'll be interesting to see whether the slim 360 manages to perk up sales for more than a few months.

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Once the third parties got used to the architecture, it has really taken off.
The exclusives have gotten better, but the multi-platform titles almost always have the PS3 release being the graphically inferior version (FF XIII is a notable exception)

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The problem isn't finding hardware, it's the platform they've put out.  The Wii has no hypervisor, no capabilities for virtualization.
Care to name any advantages to having visualization support for the software developers (as I mention below, I think you're referring to managed code)?  As it stands now it's being used for security (to prevent modding/pirating) on the 360/PS3, so as a platform for developers it doesn't really matter.

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They only hit the ground running for software devs because basically there was ZERO change between the GCN and Wii, so they really didn't have to do anything.
That really wasn't the case.  It wasn't until E3 2006 that developers even started paying attention to the Wii, and that showed in both the number and quality of titles that were being released by companies that weren't Nintendo.  The Wii was written off well before launch.

And most devs had their expertise in PS2 development, not GCN development.  Nintendo was the GameCube's lifeline in its later years, as they were basically the sole source of quality games for it.

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The problem is the devs are used to coding on a system where they basically have full control of the hardware, with no virtualization.  Virtualization forces you to stick to standard APIs and shy away from "hacks" and other undocumented features in your code.  This allows it to be a lot easier to make the games forwards compatible with the next system generation.  It also allows console devs to backport features that weren't available at launch.
It almost sounds like you're confusing virtualization with something else, like managed code.  What you're talking about is more like Microsoft's XNA, which is different than what development is for the PS3 is like.

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Look at Sony's big announcement that Move will be supported in much older titles such as RE5, Resistance, etc.  The Wii can't do that without pressing new CDs.  Imagine how much more successful the WiiMotionPlus would have been if they could have backported it to like Twilight Princess.  Same with things like Wii Speak.
Nintendo's policy with how they manage downloadable games and patches (which are non-existent for disc-based games) is dumb.  Their per-system and per-game friend codes are dumb.  Games with locked-down saves are dumb.  The fact that they took so long for SDHC card support is dumb.

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I don't think you understand the price discrepancy.  Most flash chips with the same capacity of UMDs are going to be in the 5-10 dollar range per chip, even at bulk pricing.  A UMD?  Probably pennies.  It's a huge margin change when you're talking about software sales in hundreds of thousands to millions.
Dual-layer UMDs are only 1.8GGB.  $5-10?  Try looking at retail prices for 2GB SD cards with Google and you'll see cards in that range and cheaper, let alone if you were find quotes for bulk pricing.  And remember that you only need writable storage for save files, so between bulk savings and the fact that most of a chip would only need to be written to once I could see it being considerably cheaper than what we see for SD cards.  Several times more expensive than a UMD disc, sure, but in all likelyhood a fraction of the cost that you think they would be.

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Maybe I'm getting old but I don't like having twelve boxes that all only do one thing each.  I like having choice and functionality beyond "it's a nice paperweight!" when I'm not in the mood to play.  If I'm already paying 300-400 bucks for a console, is it really that much to ask for it to do more than just play games, especially in this day and age?
You know, my PC is just one more device for that sort of thing.  I use it for games.  I use it for work.  I use it to watch videos.

If you own a Wii/PS2/PS3/360 you already have several devices that are going to be paperweights when you aren't using them.  It's just a matter of choosing which ones are going to be the paperweights.  Just add in a PC to the equation - you now have five devices, which ones are going to be the paperweights?

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At 400x240?  Hah.  You thought UMD flopped bad this is going to be godawful.
Assuming they do it with digital distribution?  Sure, I think it has a chance.  I can see Nintendo fucking this up, though.

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I don't play 2 inches away from my sensor bar, and I just find the pointer interface painful to use and clunky as hell.
I play about eight feet away and it works perfectly unless someone is standing in front of it :3

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The PS2 had a much higher proportion of good titles vs shovelware than the DS and Wii ever hope to.  I haven't even gotten close to playing all the great games PS2 had to offer, yet I can count on my hand how many good Wii or DS titles there are.
:/

List the good DS titles.  This I'm interested in.

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There's no indication if those are launch, near-launch or just big "maybe if we feel like doing it in a few years" titles.
AFAIK the games listed in the PDF on Nintendo's site are in-development.  The new Kid Icarus game will likely be a launch title, as it's being done by the studio founded by Iwata (Nintendo's president) and Sakurai (The Smash Bros guy) who hasn't been doing any other projects.  The new DKC game will probably be launch or near-launch since Retro has been working on another project since some time in 2008 and hasn't done anything else since Corruption/Trilogy.

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I seriously doubt those are all launch titles.  That being said, Nintendo is notorious for having a fantastic launch lineup and then failing to have anything meaningful for a few years.  N64 and GCN had two of the best console launches ever, Super Mario 64 is likely the best launch title period.  But then look at the slide shortly after.
That's because Nintendo were the ones having to drive everything.  3rd party support was largely shit (just like with the Wii).

I sure as hell hope quite a few of those titles aren't launch/near-launch, because my wallet is going to be hurting if these releases are well done.
Cheating? I cannot even wrap my head around the point of it. Wouldn't you know you had cheated? How on Earth could you maintain crisp certainty of your superiority to all others? And if you're unable to do that, what's the point of anything?

helvetica

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #197 on: June 18, 2010, 11:05:21 AM »
No I am not confusing virtualization with managed code.  Both go hand in hand; you use managed code to give developers standard APIs and the right way to do things, and you have a hypervisor to make sure they're sticking to them.  The nice thing you gain from having both standard APIs with a hypervisor is you are free to make changes to the underlying system software without affecting older titles adversely.  You can even backport improvements to much older titles in a lot of cases.

With how IOS is setup, there is absolutely no way Nintendo can backport new features, like the Wii MotionPlus, to older titles.  They could theoretically update the older IOSes with new device drivers, but the games themselves won't be able to take advantage of them.  You can't do disc patching without a hypervisor (well not reliably) and since each game assumes it has full control of the system, you can't implement a hypervisor without hardware support (which Broadway lacks).  Better system design is why I think this gen has lasted so long and will continue to. Having a smarter design capable of adapting to future developer needs, as well as fixing problems that may arise after a game has shipped.  It's also why piracy has basically been a nonissue for the 360/PS3.  Whereas you have a major dev like Namco declaring piracy has all but killed any revenue stream for third parties on the Wii/DS.

With Move/Kinect, Nintendo is running out of gimmicks. The Wii has an astoundingly dismal attachment rate (number of accessories/games sold with or after the console sale) despite having a ridiculous number of units sold.  Third party devs have all but given up on the Wii. With Epic Mickey the notable exception, only Nintendo is actually putting any AAA titles out for the Wii at this point, everything else is shovelware.  You'd think with the ten to one install ratio devs would be all over it.  Funny thing is, even with this massive install base difference third party AAA titles are more likely to sell MORE copies on the PS3/360 than on the Wii.  With how similar the 360/PS3 are compared to the Wii, it's just a developmental sinkhole in terms of costs that the market cannot put any serious resources into.

And honestly the only reason the 3DS even has a supposedly strong third party following is because the only major competitor for units sold in the handheld market is the iPhone/iPod Touch FFS.  A phone that costs leaps and bounds more than the DS.  And the sad thing is, even with how silly is to play games with no physical buttons, real solid studios such as Capcom and Square have been giving the iPhone serious attention.  Look at the number of ports (some which make absolute no sense like Secret of Mana) that Square has announced at E3.  Sony is in a real strong position with the PSP2 now, as the 3D "feature" is the only unique thing the 3DS brings.  If it can deliver on a handheld with real graphical prowess and reasonable battery life and price, it's likely to be a very strong contender against the 3DS.

Nintendo is in a truely bizarre position.  It is arguably only "winning" this gen in number of units sold.  In terms of developer support and attachment rates it is getting absolutely panned.  And honestly the Wii only got the massive console sales because of repackaging last gen tech and some ridiculous bad moves by Sony/MS.  Same with the DS vs the PSP, that short period of bad press over build quality really hampered what could have been a major major DS threat.  And despite these blunders, both are carving out a significant chunk of both the home and handheld console markets, and are poised to carve an even bigger chunk.

These bad moves only came about because neither of these companies have been in the console market for that long.  It's a whole different world going from marketing operating systems and TVs to consoles.  These guys are the young upstarts, and both of them managed to outright kill one old guard (Sega) and in a strong position to severely hamper the other.  You're right Nintendo doesn't have anything else to fall on, unlike Sony and MS.  And that's not exactly a good thing, as it means if push comes to shove Sony and MS can afford to sell hardware at a loss to gain marketshare whereas Nintendo has to rely on its hardware sales and exclusives to stay afloat.

To win only because you opponents were inept is not a strong position to be in.  And you damn well bet neither will make those same mistakes again.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 11:32:33 AM by ♪ Matsuoka Miu ♫ »


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


helvetica

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #198 on: June 18, 2010, 01:06:08 PM »
So to those people who said Steam on PS3 wasn't that big of news...

http://www.thekartel.com/zylvin/blog/2010/06/17/valve_plans_to_have_cross-platform_co-op_between_ps3_and_pcmac_for_portal_2
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=252387&skip=yes

Valve's Erik Johnson says their goal for steam works on PS3 includes PC/Mac cross-game play compatibility.  This is ridiculous and the possible start of an amazing relationship between PC gaymers and console fags.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Mounting Jaggis

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #199 on: June 18, 2010, 01:46:57 PM »
Oh, boy! The Steam Forums are going to be loads of fun after this


lumber_of_the_beast

Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #200 on: June 18, 2010, 01:51:21 PM »
Crossplatform play for games from a company that makes FPSs.

Big deal.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

helvetica

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #201 on: June 18, 2010, 02:27:35 PM »
Crossplatform play for games from a company that makes FPSs.

Big deal.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Umm, you do realize that Steam (and the Source engine) is used by games that aren't FPSes.  This is huge, and the first actual attempt between a big name dev house/publisher and a console maker to try to bridge the cap between consoles and PCs.  MS is doing everything it can to make the divide deeper, and Nintendo has no online strategy to speak of, so this is a refreshing change of pace.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Barrakketh

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #202 on: June 18, 2010, 04:23:14 PM »
Oh, boy! The Steam Forums are going to be loads of fun after this
Eh, it means more scrubs to kill if TF2 for the PS3 gets an update.
Cheating? I cannot even wrap my head around the point of it. Wouldn't you know you had cheated? How on Earth could you maintain crisp certainty of your superiority to all others? And if you're unable to do that, what's the point of anything?

lumber_of_the_beast

Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #203 on: June 18, 2010, 05:15:14 PM »
Umm, you do realize that Steam (and the Source engine) is used by games that aren't FPSes.  This is huge, and the first actual attempt between a big name dev house/publisher and a console maker to try to bridge the cap between consoles and PCs.  MS is doing everything it can to make the divide deeper, and Nintendo has no online strategy to speak of, so this is a refreshing change of pace.
That is an interesting idea that will become relevant as soon as you provide evidence that suggests that this might apply to games other than those produced by Valve.

helvetica

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Re: E3 2010: Motion Controlled Edition
« Reply #204 on: June 18, 2010, 05:35:08 PM »
Why not?  Valve specifically said STEAMWORKS was going to be ported to PS3, and STEAMWORKS is what third party devs using Steam use.

If you're already using Steamworks for your PC port it's likely to be very trivial to use it on your PS3 port as well.  Valve wouldn't have made a big deal out of stressing Steamworks over "PORTAL 2 IS A FIRST CLASS PORT NOW", if that weren't the case.  And this is Valve.  They're trying to position themselves as the master of digital distribution.

If it was just about Portal 2, they wouldn't have stressed the Steamworks aspect of it.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."