Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)

[Azinth]

Hay guys, you know what's really horribly designed about these games is how transparent my shot is

i mean like how am i supposed to know what direction its pointing in

[The Greatest Dog]

P.S. MoF!MarisaC makes the game unwinnable.

The fact that I have a 1/2 history of Lunatic VoWG doesn't agree.
And I haven't even bothered to clear stage 1 on Lunatic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y81UUNOUWlY

[Formless God]

... That VoWG didn't even throw the harder waves at you.

[The Greatest Dog]

... That VoWG didn't even throw the harder waves at you.

Because Marisa C kills it that quickly.

Besides, what's the chance that VoWG will not throw a hard wave that a newbie couldn't dodge for 30 entire seconds?
I tried looking at bjwdestroyer's perfect stage 6, and it doesn't seem to throw a solid wall until the 35-40 second mark.
Besides, what's not to like about Marisa C taking 20 less seconds than Reimu B?

[Formless God]

Why does my Hina fight last longer than with Reimu B then ? :/

EDIT: The walls are random and they come with the faster waves. I usually face these waves as soon as Reimu B reduces the health gauge to half (probably 20 seconds in).
It's pretty easy to derp due to the sudden change of speed and pattern. And I highly doubt any newbie would be capable of consistently surviving that for 30 seconds.

[The Greatest Dog]

Why does my Hina fight last longer than with Reimu B then ? :/

1. Hina doesn't stay in one spot for the entire fight.
2. With Reimu B, at least you can deal maximum damage if the boss moves and you're directly underneath as well.
3. Thus, some cards will be longer by a bit, but others (VoWG) will be significantly shorter.
4. With a well timed bomb during certain parts of the game, you can put all four frostthrowers in position for the boss. That's partially what happened in my video.

Edits:
5: It's Hina. Deal with plus 2 seconds.

[Tengukami]

Not saving replays of failures is a great way to keep failing. Trying over and over won't help if you don't examine what you did wrong. I'd say 90% of the complaints in this thread come from thinking replays are just for showing off.

[Iryan]

OK. Let's do this a little bit more civilized and scientific.  BV


What exactly is BS, shmup-wise? Is BS something that is unfair? Is it something that merely feels unfair? Is it bad design in general? Is it something else entirely?

In my opinion, a given stage portion or boss pattern is BS if the difficulty can, through sheer bad luck, occasionally spike way higher than it has a right to be for its spot in the game, which for lunatic mode usually implies nigh- or actual impossibility with human reflexes. Patterns that occasionally throw impenetrable walls at the player are the most obvious offenders here.

Note that a certain degree of randomness (and thus a slightly variable difficulty) is to be expected for a card. Por ejemplo, VoWG can throw both easy and difficult waves at you, but they are never impossible or too difficult for the final card of a lunatic mode, and the total number of waves is high enough to even out the overall difficulty.
Something that can (and possibly has to) be 100% micromemorized from beginning to end is fair if the execution is humanly possible, but it is still boring and bad design nontheless. For reference, see Hourai Jewel.

Stuff like bullets with a hitbox/sprite proportion of greater than 1, as seen in SoEW, are just plain bad design. They are not BS as long as they are not used in a BS pattern. It is kind of more like a dog turd...

[nintendonut888]

Not saving replays of failures is a great way to keep failing. Trying over and over won't help if you don't examine what you did wrong. I'd say 90% of the complaints in this thread come from thinking replays are just for showing off.

You know, after one of my many BoWaP clipdeaths where I did not see the bullet that killed me (mind you this happens very rarely otherwise these days), I saved the replay and watched. Apparently I moved a tiny bit to the right and hit a bullet.

I raged anyway. :V

[Tengukami]

You know, after one of my many BoWaP clipdeaths where I did not see the bullet that killed me (mind you this happens very rarely otherwise these days), I saved the replay and watched. Apparently I moved a tiny bit to the right and hit a bullet.

I raged anyway. :V

Of course you're going to rage when you see what you did wrong, but at least then you'll know, and probably be able to avoid that mistake in the future.

In this thread, I'm seeing a lot of "waaah this card is total BULLSHIT man" but when asked for replays, Enigma was actually incredulous at the idea of saving a replay of a failure. As if using replays in this way is just completely an alien concept. That's what surprises me.

[nintendonut888]

But I didn't see it and I still make the mistake on a regular basis. X( That fact that my normal methods of dodging don't work is why I hate that card. Heck, I'm so conditioned to not watch my hitbox directly it's almost impossible for me to actually do it even if I'm trying.

[Tengukami]

Oh don't get me wrong, I feel your pain. It's difficult for me to shift gears between "eyes glued to the hitbox" and "follow the streams". Micrododging is a real weakness of mine, which is why in Imperishable Night, I prefer fighting Reimu to Marisa, and also why I do better against Mystia's last two cards than I do micrododging anything else - the rest of the game window blotted out actually help me concentrate.

But I do think you stand a much, much better chance of being able to capture a spellcard by watching replays of your failures, rather than raging as you start over, charging, over and over again.

[Formless God]

Well I normally just instantly pinpoint where I screwed up mid-fight so I never save any replays to analyze either :ohdear: I assume it's only necessary in the case of "clipdeaths", where I don't even know what derp'd me. And most of the time my normal Touhou session would just go like "Wrong move, son; You rammed into that bullet on purpose idiot; Get off that fucking bottom; omg you sux practice more" following by an immediate rematch.

[Tengukami]

Well I normally just instantly pinpoint where I screwed up mid-fight so I never save any replays to analyze either :ohdear: I assume it's only necessary in the case of "clipdeaths", where I don't even know what derp'd me. And most of the time my normal Touhou session would just go like "Wrong move, son; You rammed into that bullet on purpose idiot; Get off that fucking bottom; omg you sux practice more" following by an immediate rematch.

Ahahaha this sound like me today playing Level 6 of Double Spoiler.

"Holy crap what is wrong with you? Do you enjoy flying right into tiny Suikas?"

[Bananamatic]

saving replays of failures does nothing

you'll probably blow it at a different place or you need to use a completely different tactic
watching replays doesn't eliminate common mistakes which can happen anywhere

[Iryan]

saving replays of failures does nothing

you'll probably blow it at a different place or you need to use a completely different tactic
watching replays doesn't eliminate common mistakes which can happen anywhere

There are mistakes that are not common mistakes that can happen anywhere.

If you do need a completely different tactic, watching a replay may give you the overview neccessary to figure it out.

But that isn't what this thread is about, is it?

[Tengukami]

saving replays of failures does nothing

you'll probably blow it at a different place or you need to use a completely different tactic
watching replays doesn't eliminate common mistakes which can happen anywhere

2/10. This statement is ridiculous on its face.

If you're stuck on a stage, and can't figure out how to advance or what you're doing wrong, watching a replay of your mistakes will show you what you're doing wrong. This is just common sense.

[Bananamatic]

There are mistakes that are not common mistakes that can happen anywhere.

If you do need a completely different tactic, watching a replay may give you the overview neccessary to figure it out.

But that isn't what this thread is about, is it?

yeah, but that involves watching successful replays, not your derp ones :V

[Azure Lazuline]

Well, I sometimes look at replays to figure something out. It lets me watch the bullets without worrying about dodging, so I can focus all my attention on planning a path. I still find it more effective to just try again, but replays do help sometimes.

[Drake]

yeah, but that involves watching successful replays, not your derp ones :V

Only if you have the analytical ability of a garden gnome.

[Bananamatic]

2/10. This statement is ridiculous on its face.

If you're stuck on a stage, and can't figure out how to advance or what you're doing wrong, watching a replay of your mistakes will show you what you're doing wrong. This is just common sense.

But watching a replay of somebody else perfecting it will also show you how to do it properly.

[Iryan]

But watching a replay of somebody else perfecting it will also show you how to do it properly.

Figuring out how to do a pattern yourself can be half the fun, especially in extra stages.

I guess that depends on opinion, though...

[Bananamatic]

Figuring out how to do a pattern yourself can be half the fun, especially in extra stages.

I guess that depends on opinion, though...

Only in extra stages. But these are usually trivial :V

[Tengukami]

But watching a replay of somebody else perfecting it will also show you how to do it properly.

Aren't you the one who complains about memorization?

EDIT: Assuming for a moment your statement "watching replays of your failures does nothing" was actually genuine, I'd submit that the question, "Why the hell do I keep dying at this stage?" can often be answered with, "Oh, because I keep doing X, when I see here the path actually opens up towards Y".

Of course, if you want to go to YouTube and memorize runs other people who actually learned the stages did, you can also do that. But that's neither here nor there.

[Bananamatic]

Aren't you the one who complains about memorization?

You'll either memorize it or you'll keep failing. Making your own tactic also includes memorizing :V

[Tengukami]

You'll either memorize it or you'll keep failing. Making your own tactic also includes memorizing :V

Now you're being disingenuous, as I'm sure even you know the difference between "memorizing your own paths" and "studying YouTube vids".

Also, see my edit.

[Silent Harmony]

<- Has the analytical ability of a garden gnome. Seriously I can't read worth a damn.

I admit I've started saving everything the last couple of days(going to need more folders). It's helped a little so far, but we'll see how far this goes. I even have my first test for it:

Does Lyrica's Easy-mode 2nd non-spell (before Phantom Dinning) throw walls due to bullet speed? So far 3 replays point to "most likely." Or at the least "no, but still way too fucking cluttered*."

In the meantime, is my memory failing me or have people said STB/DS help with pattern-reading?



*To emphasize this, play Marisa, focus on Lyrica, and compare her 2nd and 3rd non-cards to [Concerto Grosso -Easy-].

[Helion]

on that note i totally think that because i suck at something, it is bullshit and unfair. discuss.

Many complaints can be dismissed like this, but there are times where it's pretty fair to say something is bullshit, ie Aya's survival from MoF.

[Zengeku]

Many complaints can be dismissed like this, but there are times where it's pretty fair to say something is bullshit, ie Aya's survival from MoF.

Oh yeah? Isn't it technically "possible"?

[Iryan]

I never found Aya's survival to be that bullshitty. It is merely very hard sightread dodging. Not that I've captured it or anything, but still...