Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)

[LHCling]

The big part of the game that ticks me off is the obscene amount of areas that kill you via clipdeath. Turning to stage 4 once again, the laser spams are pretty much down to luck for short-ranged Reimu A, as the lasers may very well not leave an opening that can be worked with.

... I don't get what you mean by the lasers not leaving "an opening that can be worked with" (considering the static nature of said lasers and enemies), however:

Microtapping is a skill :3c

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Spell_Cards

If you're saying all of them, then I'm going to be laughing for hours on end. That said, of the 26 possible Spell Cards that you face in a normal run, I would say that 24 out of those 26 are straight-up dodging ones; 23 if you know how to deal with a certain Spell Card properly. The other two are semi- and total-memorization Spell Cards. Out of all the Spell Cards faced in Extra, only one Spell Card is memorization-based.

[RainfallYoshi]

Virtue of Wind God wins this thread.

[Naut]

Virtue of Wind God wins this thread.

If this thread was named "the only reason to play MoF", then yes, it would win.

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

I can name 5 other reasons

Nitori
Peerless Wind God
Sanae
Suwako
Most of the stages

I just wish there was spell practice so that I wouldn't have to redo the stage when I fail Terukuni and Suwa War though. Also would make doing stuff with other cards much quicker.


And VoWG is pretty much the definition of a fair card, though I hate it because it often shoots solid walls that are hard to read quickly enough.

[Drake]

stand still, stream, dodge, dodge, dodge, follow nitori around
dodge
dodge, micromem (ew), dodge, stream, dodge, dodge, loleasy
lolwat
learn them you dummy

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

I wasn't complaining about any of those.

But if you want complaining,

HRtP(the entire game)
Marisa(SoEW)
Mima
SoEW Extra
PoDD Lunatic
LLS Lunatic Stage 5 preboss waves
Yuka final phases

[Bananamatic]

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Embodiment_of_Scarlet_Devil:_Stage_4_Spell_Cards

and nitori is also gay
hell, the entire MoF is along with SA and UFO

we need more PCB.

[Azinth]

Ikaruga is the WORST GAEM EVAR
I beat TOUHOU HARD O MODO and ZUN told me that HARDO MODO player is BEST STG PLAYER IN THE UNIVERSE
But I cant beat Ikaruga on IJJI MODO, that means it is BADLY DESIGNED GAEM OMG

[The Greatest Dog]

I beat TOUHOU HARD O MODO
But I cant beat Ikaruga on IJJI MODO,

I am seriously guilty of not being able to 1cc Ikaruga.
Anyways, UFO definitely has relatively harder attacks than the rest of the series. But if you're going around trying to consistently capture every single god damn card in every single 1cc you try, you're going to fail. I've gotten to Byakuren's curvy lasers without continuing solely because I used a BOMB whenever I felt uncomfortable with new shit - namely Shou's first two noncards and maybe RTG.
There's a reason that UFO hands out resources on a silver platter. It's definitely not handing out spellcard captures.

[Heartbeam]

we need more PCB.

Yeah, go ahead and bring them up.  Bring them up!

PCB stage six fairies.  I'll shoot myself down already.

[Zetzumarshen]

PCB stage six fairies.  I'll shoot myself down already.

You know there are plenty ways to avoid part that, right?

[Formless God]

AFAIK ... a well-placed bomb, Sakuya, or mad skillz :V

[Silent Harmony]

EoSD was a horrible introduction to the windows series. Seriously, rank system? Random attacks? Score-based life system? Musically half the themes are grating (I'm sorry but Red Cherry sucks!)


And I agree with Donut, SA isn't that great. I love the soundtrack, and it has my favorite Easy S4 so far (limited experience), but so many parts of the game bug me. Especially the power:health relationship, especially when you reach Utsuho. Her attacks last way too long at 4.00, go after them low power and you may as well aim for a time-out.

Also how could you miss the worse part: gimmick shot types!

[Sapz]

EoSD was a horrible introduction to the windows series. Seriously, rank system? Random attacks? Score-based life system?

...I'm, err, not seeing the problem with any of these things. :V Mind expanding on that?

[Silent Harmony]

...I'm, err, not seeing the problem with any of these things. :V Mind expanding on that?

You seriously see nothing wrong with a rank system? Seriously?

The others are personal peeves. Score-based lives reward better play (see: capturing cards) which sucks given the bomb-more advice people love to give. And if you do capture, you face the previously-mentioned rank system.

Random bullets suck when you can't read and dodge quickly. I for one will admit I need to work on that. (I also hate how so many cards have bullets change direction and/or fly sideways starting at Boss-Meiling, but again probably me sucking).

Maybe I'm wrong, all I know is I haven't touched the game for months (mostly due to the above).

[Zengeku]

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Spell_Cards

Brilliant! You made me laugh really good there. UFO cards are either easy and dull or hard and annoying. I'd prefer DDP over many UFO cards.

EoSD was a horrible introduction to the windows series. Seriously, rank system? Random attacks? Score-based life system? Musically half the themes are grating (I'm sorry but Red Cherry sucks!)

EoSD has some of the better game design in the series. Sure it has its parts were you are best off just bombing but the boss fights are fun. A score based life system means that getting lives are easy as pie (which is ideal compared to having to fight for them in a game that's already hard to begin with). The rank system can admittedly screw you over though.

About the music. Matter of taste. Imo, the soundtrack is equal to that of UFO except with less dull themes. (Lunate Elf > The Sealed Cloud Route and Anything EoSD has > Fires of Hokkai )

And I agree with Donut, SA isn't that great. I love the soundtrack, and it has my favorite Easy S4 so far (limited experience), but so many parts of the game bug me. Especially the power:health relationship, especially when you reach Utsuho. Her attacks last way too long at 4.00, go after them low power and you may as well aim for a time-out.

Also how could you miss the worse part: gimmick shot types!

Never killed my lunatic 1cc's. In SA you only run out of power if you bombspam. If you die you even replenish power if you are low on it. And you don't lose power if you have 4.00

And about gimmick shot types. Yeah, the shots in SA are pretty bad. I only need one good weapon though. I tend to always stick to one shot type when playing. ReimuB in EoSD and PCB, Reimu & Yukari in IN, ReimuB in MoF, ReimuA in SA and in UFO: ReimuA. (SanaeB for extra)

[Drake]

First of all, in EoSD in particular you don't need to do anything special to get all the extends. Second, advice given to score and advice given to survive are usually quite different. Bombing advice I give is for people who complain that they can't 1cc or die multiple times on a card, when the problem is they aren't good enough to dodge it. Cheesing the game through bombspam is just demonstration of how well you can survive on bombs alone. Third, rewarding the player for playing well just makes too much sense to not like. You don't reward the player for doing an acceptable job. I know you mean it sucks due to people telling you to bomb for survival, but "bombing for survival" and "bombing to play well" go somewhat in the same category. You try to survive: you bomb if you're going to die so you don't die. Even if you don't capture a card, as long as you don't bomb everything (and even then) you're going to do well, and survive, which is technically playing well. For EoSD, the amount of star points you get can be a very good source of points anyways.

Rank system is for making sure you don't glide through the game. Rank system itself isn't going to totally ruin a 1cc, and it's used in many other shmups. If you die or bomb in EoSD, rank goes down because you're having a hard time. If you capture, rank goes up because you're having it too easy. It's a balancing method, even if it isn't absolutely perfect.

[Zengeku]

It is adviceable to plan bombs ahead though. Its not a good idea to try capturing Killing Doll if you have bombs for example. Unless you are very confident in your skills.

[Sapz]

You seriously see nothing wrong with a rank system? Seriously?

Indeed. It's a perfectly valid way of designing a shmup; some shmups have static difficulty, and some have varying difficulty based on your performance. I'd go so far as to say there are more danmaku shmups with a rank system than those without; look at CAVE, Psikyo and Raizing (especially Battle Garegga, where the name of the game is intentionally dying to ease up the rank and score for more extends ). Everything in EoSD is still perfectly dodgeable at max rank - the game just eases up on you if you fail to dodge a pattern to make sure you don't die too often. Hell, you can even reduce the rank via deathbombing and keep your resources.

In short, no, I see nothing wrong with a rank system (despite that they irritate me at times, they're still absolutely fair). What do you see wrong with a rank system?

[Bananamatic]

rather

what's wrong with score based extends

that's how 90% of shmups work

[Zengeku]

rather

what's wrong with score based extends

that's how 90% of shmups work

Answer: There is nothing wrong with score based extends. Maybe some will complain that it makes the game too easy but it won't hurt anyones gameplay performance i'm sure. I am by no means a king of scoring and my 1 billion points in PCB aren't really impressive if you compare to those who are playing actively for score.

Anyone can get all the points necessary for extends. What is it in MoF? 150 million? I had over 500 million at the end of my 1cc which didn't really go that well at all.

In EoSD i had a silly 120 million points at the end of my run but all extends have been gotten at 80 millions so it doesn't matter.

PCB and IN's point based extend system makes it so that everyone can get all available extends. That's how it should be.

[Bananamatic]

PCB and IN's point based extend system makes it so that everyone can get all available extends. That's how it should be.

I like it better when reaching extends is an accomplishment.

[Tengukami]

And then there's eXceed2nd, which combines score-based extends and the ranking system.

Thanks for making this thread, btw. It was much needed, and will undoubtedly be an endless source of largely unintentional comedy. I've shout-laughed several times already.

[Bananamatic]

And then there's eXceed2nd, which combines score-based extends and the ranking system.

Thanks for making this thread, btw. It was much needed, and will undoubtedly be an endless source of largely unintentional comedy. I've shout-laughed several times already.

how many times to me

[Helion]

Indeed. It's a perfectly valid way of designing a shmup; some shmups have static difficulty, and some have varying difficulty based on your performance. I'd go so far as to say there are more danmaku shmups with a rank system than those without; look at CAVE

Well, Dodonpachi rank doesn't make all that difference, IIRC. Also I noticed that max rank EoSD on some things really likes to screw you over pretty bad. Not everything, but a few of Patchouli's cards, and I think one of China's. I also think Remilia to be hellish on max rank.

In short: I like that the game increases the challenge if I'm breezing through it, but I don't like things becoming nigh-impossible, that's adjusting too far.

[Zengeku]

Ikaruga is the WORST GAEM EVAR
I beat TOUHOU HARD O MODO and ZUN told me that HARDO MODO player is BEST STG PLAYER IN THE UNIVERSE
But I cant beat Ikaruga on IJJI MODO, that means it is BADLY DESIGNED GAEM OMG

HEY! That's my line! Don't rip of my good old trolling stunt. (Which i'm not really proud of but still...)

And then there's eXceed2nd, which combines score-based extends and the ranking system.

Thanks for making this thread, btw. It was much needed, and will undoubtedly be an endless source of largely unintentional comedy. I've shout-laughed several times already.

Exceed 2nd is awesome!

And i do indeed believe that this thread was necessary as well. Lets keep the arguing about what games suck out of the achievements/raging thread eh?

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

I liked Ikaruga until I tried chaining. Now I think that game is garbage. Actually, outside of the 4th and 5th stages, it is garbage.

And yes, I hate the UFO power system. ReimuA, ReimuB, MarisA, and SanaeA are completely useless for stages. ReimuB,MarisaB, SanaeA, and SanaeB are useless for killing bosses

No other Touhou relies on clipdeaths to screw your game up nearly as much as this. SA completely fair. MoF, mostly fair. IN, mostly fair. PCB, mostly fair. EoSD- more fair than UFO but also has the issues of random boss movements sometimes leading to impossible patterns. HRtP is agreed on as BS for anyone not in denial, SoEW is known for BS moments, PoDD Lunatic is BS. Very little BS in LLS or MS.

Don't get me started on UFO's power system which will lead to having to time out most things while trying to practice and makes actual runs not fun along with the crappy deaths. The only other crappy power system in the series is in SA, and only for Marisa/Alice.

Oh, and here's one most of us can agree is bullshit. PoFV Lunatic AI, especially Shikieki.

[Helion]

As already said in this thread, UFO power system is pretty good, basically at lowest power you don't have options, and it doesn't make as much of a difference as in the other games.

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

It makes a huge difference if you're playing SanaeB or MarisA, which happen to be my 2 most played shot types. Each lost power is the game makes things way worse.

[Silent Harmony]

Not surprised at all I'm at odds with the shmup community.

First off, rank system can be good in theory. It keeps things hard for good players, and settles things for bad. However, the fact that one needs to die multiple times to earn a 1cc seems....counterproductive to me. A first-time 1cc death should come because you screw up, not because the game decides you're doing too good. It you could control it better*, or adjust it*, or at least see it, maybe I wouldn't be so bitter.

And score based systems are, again, a theory/execution problem. I seem to remember someone saying tHRtP's Easy mode actually gives less resources because of it. This thread got me to look back, and yes it seems he fixed that problem (I over-estimated the bonus points). I guess the problem I have is there's no easy-to-find guide to how EoSD's life system works (it took me weeks to find out you get your first extra life at 10M).

I guess in the end, I just hate how these two systems play out. You need to play well (as in not die) to get far enough in the game to get lives, yet you need to die to make the game manageable enough for you to play well.

But, from what I'm reading, this is how shmups work. *sigh* Not going to keep me from playing the genre, but doesn't mean I have to completely agree with it.


/flamesuit

*Outside of dieing. Like an out-of-game option.