Author Topic: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)  (Read 59733 times)

Sapz

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #270 on: August 11, 2010, 10:44:20 AM »
Quote
circling
goddamn I guess Ketsui must suck pretty hard then

In all seriousness, I don't see what the problem is with an attack you actually have to put in some effort to learn how to clear. There are certain fun patterns that simply wouldn't be possible to make in such a way that everyone would be able to clear them the first time, and yes, the UFO Stage 3 circling is pretty damn fun once you get it down. Just because earlier games in the series like PCB don't really do this doesn't make it a bad thing, it's just a slightly different style. It probably doesn't help your impressions of it that UFO is difficult, but that's beside the point; bullshit it ain't, it's perfectly doable with a little practice.

If, however, you're completely set on this 'any kind of learning attack is bad' thing, you might want to give PoFV another try. That's as reflexive as it ge-
i don't like the random nature of [PoFV]
... :V
Let's fight.

Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #271 on: August 11, 2010, 11:05:18 AM »
Phew. I dunno what to say anymore. Its stupid for me to go on. No. It probably isn't a problem if i have to learn something about an attack.

The solution to Orin's 1st card isn't obvious for example and i find that to be quite a blast. Its probably just me who doesn't like UFO and tries to point towards a reason.

In short, i don't like UFO. Because it is UFO.

Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #272 on: August 11, 2010, 02:15:21 PM »
goddamn I guess Ketsui must suck pretty hard then

That attack falls under the it's obvious that you have to circle around it.

Formless God

Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #273 on: August 11, 2010, 02:43:14 PM »
Same goes for pre-Ichirin spam. What do you do if you're pushed into the corner and the wave doesn't seem to let up ?
Hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 04:58:02 PM by Floral Gust »

Alfred F. Jones

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #274 on: August 11, 2010, 11:19:40 PM »
So it's been called to staff attention that some people have said things in this thread (and others) that are less than acceptable here on MotK.

Let this post be considered as the first and only warning to shut your mouths when it comes to bickering. Yes, this thread is specifically titled "Touhou debate thread", but that's no reason for some o' you folks to attack each other personally and belittle other people's accomplishments. If we catch one more person slamming other people's successes in Touhou as "not good enough", expect punishment to come on swift wings. Already a few of you have earned probations, so be looking out for them. We are quite serious about maintaining a common decency in HME, and if this warning and probations do not serve that purpose, then we can and will escalate the level of punishments we hand out.

Oh, and for the rest of you silent majority-- don't you dare think that this doesn't reflect badly on you, either. I know there are quite a few of you folks who refrained from hitting the "report to moderator" button for some ungodly reason, and this behaviour is also less than acceptable. If someone is talking trash about other players' work and making less of their hard-earned accomplishments, you report that goddamned post and don't dally about it. Worst case scenario is staff doesn't think anything of it; best case is that you help us administer just punishment to offenders, and help maintain an atmosphere of decency here in HME. You have nothing to lose, so stop thinking that threads like these are a necessary evil when they do not have to be, and you have a whole team of staff ready to fall all over themselves to punish jackasses and maintain order.

Now, then. What has gone on in this thread is worse than some other things we've probated people for in the past, so expect some punishment to rain down on certain persons. Now, this normally doesn't happen, but I'm going to call some people out here by name: Enigma. Zengeku. Bananamatic. These three in specific have posted in this thread (and in others) with either bitching or outright offensive behaviour. To you three: hold on tight while your just punishment is delivered. (Arguing will not help your positions any, by the way.) And a lot of others in this thread whose posts we are analyzing came borderline to their behaviour, so don't expect much mercy-- expect probations instead.

This thread is being kept open, at least for now, because we believe that this warning is all you need. If we are proven wrong, though, expect this thread to be locked and justice administered to all offenders. If you good folks of HME are still capable of critical analysis and giving advice without stooping to the level of "fuck you I'm not doing any work" that we've seen thus far, continue debating in this thread. If not, then we shall just have to see what happens, won't we?

Alice Fact

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #275 on: August 12, 2010, 12:38:42 AM »
this might be the best post ever
Regarding score threads: For the time being, I'm not going to be online much; I would suggest that you simply do as you normally do, because I will come back and I will want those threads when I do.

Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #276 on: August 12, 2010, 04:52:08 PM »
Read and understood. When and how will the punishment fall?

Alfred F. Jones

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #277 on: August 12, 2010, 11:22:34 PM »
All of you are probated for at least a week, starting today. Up to another week will be added according to the staff's judgment, but no more than that.

And to anyone who gets the bright idea to delete their account, we're not approving any of those requests without good reason, and trying to duck a probation is not one of them. We will see you around here in two weeks.

The rest of you can continue this thread now, y'know.

Sapz

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #278 on: August 12, 2010, 11:57:52 PM »
Welp. :derp:

...Out of random interest, what do you guys think of bullets that can potentially spawn on you/have otherwise non-obvious spawn points? Things like those sphere enemies in UFO Stage 2, or Kogasa's second boss card with the weird moving bullet spawn points, or Yukari's Last Word final phase, or silly shit like the suicide bullets that spawn more suicide bullets in SoEW Lunatic. Personally, I am not a big fan of these. :V
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nintendonut888

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #279 on: August 13, 2010, 12:03:24 AM »
I have two big pet peeves when it comes to danmaku, more than anything else: Bullets that spawn on top of you, and attacks that come from below. Thankfully in the official games neither is too common, at least without proper warning (though sadly enemies from below were more prevalent in PC-98). Still, attacks like Eirin's second non-spell are always the mark of an unfun fight in my book. The biggest flaw with Phantasm Romance is that some of the later stages are full of these attacks, and some are even aimed to spawn on you. That isn't dodging; dodging is when you have time to react.
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Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #280 on: August 13, 2010, 12:11:44 AM »
...Out of random interest, what do you guys think of bullets that can potentially spawn on you/have otherwise non-obvious spawn points?

I don't like the ones in Red magic. It's like I'm getting killed from invisible bullets sometimes.
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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #281 on: August 13, 2010, 12:12:31 AM »
As for attacks that come from below, I think maybe ZUN should add a flashing warning indicator or something that might help those who aren't familiar with the game/stage.  I dunno, just my two-cents. 


There's always the option of playing the game more than once though.   :V


I don't like the ones in Red magic. It's like I'm getting killed from invisible bullets sometimes.
I think the Red Magic bullets are fairly obvious as to where they spawn, but that's just my personal opinion.

Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #282 on: August 13, 2010, 12:21:32 AM »
Welp. :derp:

...Out of random interest, what do you guys think of bullets that can potentially spawn on you/have otherwise non-obvious spawn points? Things like those sphere enemies in UFO Stage 2, or Kogasa's second boss card with the weird moving bullet spawn points, or Yukari's Last Word final phase, or silly shit like the suicide bullets that spawn more suicide bullets in SoEW Lunatic. Personally, I am not a big fan of these. :V
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2YSH95x7O4#t=4m17s 8)

Well, I guess it depends on what you want out of the game.  They're annoying to deal with on the first few playthroughs, but if I'm playing a game I want to get good at, I usually end up playing through it dozens of times, if not hundreds.  After the first few dozen playthroughs, I doubt such attacks will still be a problem, since by then I know what's coming.

After a while, I've even developed a bit of an affection for all those lightning fast insta-death attacks you find in stuff like Banshiryuu or Gunbird 2.  They keep you movin'

Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #283 on: August 13, 2010, 12:32:03 AM »
Welp. :derp:

...Out of random interest, what do you guys think of bullets that can potentially spawn on you/have otherwise non-obvious spawn points? Things like those sphere enemies in UFO Stage 2, or Kogasa's second boss card with the weird moving bullet spawn points, or Yukari's Last Word final phase, or silly shit like the suicide bullets that spawn more suicide bullets in SoEW Lunatic. Personally, I am not a big fan of these. :V

I'd say frustrating at first, but avoidable later, in another run ;p (some of Mima's patterns in Phantasm Romance aren't obvious enough, so I at first got hit by aimed star streams while paying attention to the rest of the pattern, or didn't think about getting close to her to avoid being left at the outside of her circle of stars). I don't like attacks which sort of force you to memorize them beforehand (I don't like having to keep information on my mind while I'm playing, because it's distracting.. examples being the spawn points of certain enemies/enemy formations in EoSD's stage 4 and some of the fairies in stage 5), and I don't like how Yukari's last word (*except* the final phase :V)'s more about memorization than dodging.. (put the same effort in memorizing it as you would put in dodging it, have better chances of capturing it).

Another things that I don't like in EoSD (besides scoring stuff) are.. large bubble bullets which have confusing hitboxes (so I think to myself.. "how much space do they really take?", "is this path really okay?").. Sakuya's knives (where's their hitbox? And the flames'?), and how some attacks have some good clipping potential (one of Meiling's nonspells, in which she spreads spiraling kunai streams, and Patchy's second Non-Directional Laser).

Meanwhile, what I like in PoFV (since it may help people enjoy it more, or not ;p) is how you can use fairies to clear areas of bullets; the chaining is lenient enough, and losing it doesn't mean much (unless you're having lots of BONUS!, of course :p), since if you're playing for survival, you should be resetting your chain sometimes, in order to resummon bosses (at 100k, 300k and 500k). Also, there's lots of bombs on it, like in Varth, and just like in Varth, you mustn't overuse them :p (but still use them, since then you'll raise the level of your ex attacks). As for Lily+Komachi, or even Lily+Sikieiki, you can either lvl 2 Lily's bullets, or keep your chain going so that your boss summon cancel Komachi's. (though if the Komachi is an human player, then... :V)
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Ghaleon

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #284 on: August 13, 2010, 12:48:36 AM »
One of my biggest pet-peeves is heavy emphasis on memorizing where enemies spawn. This is more of a problem with other shmups more than Touhou, but it happens in Touhou occasionally too. For example, EoSD stage 4, if you're not homing Reimu, and you forget when/where/how those spark-things spawn after the mid-boss (middle left, middle, far left, far right, middle, mid right, far right, far left IIRC)...You're pretty much forced to die or bomb unless you can dodge the books on lunatic with your eyes closed.

This is the biggest reason why I can't enjoy UFO as much as the other Touhou's. Because it is pretty important to remember where the UFO's spawn, what colors they are, etc. It wouldn't be so bad if I played one game and stuck with it for awhile, practiced it, etc. But I generally launch each Touhou like once a week, play a few times, then quit, so it's really a matter of personal taste for me than "bs" in a game.

Oddly spawning bullets I think are something everyone hates. Red Magic is a bad example IMO because they spawn directly behind the large bubble bullets. So you can predict how they'll spawn in advance, and if you can't, it's really your own fault. I find it more annoying how fast/suddenly fairies spawn near the top of the screen sometimes. I mean the whole "point of collection" thing is pretty unique to Touhou I think (only shmup I know that has one), so the player is encouraged to fly near the top of the screen sometimes, but sometimes those fairies just zoom out and own you. Almost every time I'm going for a first 1cc on a Touhou game, I only succeed after I get a basic grasp of when it's safe to fly to the poc in advance or not.

Shmups really are pretty mysterious. They really lull you into thinking that they require memorization less than pretty much any genre. And while it's indeed possible to excell at them via great skill without memorizing anything, it still helps alot more than you expect. Sometimes people claim a shmup is bs because it requires too much or whatever, and they quote another shmup which supposedly doesn't, but every time I try them, fact is they do and they really take for granted how much they play it without really thinking about it. Every little nuance like hanging on the left side of the screen before the enemies spawn there, to how to get a certain powerup/extralife/secret stage (memorizing 16 invisible bee point items in DDP PER STAGE for the secret stage? ugh), to starting off a stream-heavy attack on the far side instead of in the middle, they really add up into being massively important. So part of me feels like a hypocrite for not liking UFO'S emphasis on memorizing enemy spawnpoints/UFOs, but it's really the only reason that makes me fail to enjoy the game as much as the others.

Another Touhou subject of angst: Curvey lasers:

Do the experienced players actually read them so that they know where they will go when they are shot? Or is it just kind of a "twitch" thing as they get close for everyone?


nintendonut888

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #285 on: August 13, 2010, 12:54:43 AM »
I assume by "curvy lasers" you mean Shou. Yeah, it's a matter of reading them, as twitch dodging doesn't help much. ZUN himself says they require really good reflexes to dodge, and it's not easy.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

ふねん1

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #286 on: August 13, 2010, 02:23:22 AM »
I have no Internet for a couple of days, and look what I miss. If that's even worth missing. I won't bother.

...Out of random interest, what do you guys think of bullets that can potentially spawn on you/have otherwise non-obvious spawn points? Things like those sphere enemies in UFO Stage 2, or Kogasa's second boss card with the weird moving bullet spawn points
For the first one, I never have to stay far above the bottom anyway. "Don't stay near them" pretty much negates any risk of that. Similar for Kogasa's second boss card. I can't really comment on the others since I've yet to play them. You really don't see this concept much, thank God. Regarding Remilia, it's only Vampire Illusion and Scarlet Gensokyo (and their lower equivalents) that do this, right? And it should be possible to judge where they spawn based on the bubbles, right?

Memorizing enemy locations just comes naturally over time. You play a stage some, you get familiar with what formations show up without even knowing it. I'm not well-versed in other shumps, but do enemy spawn points ever change significantly in those?

EDIT: Oh, and I think I remember Meiling's last Spellcard once spawning a bullet on top of me. I wonder if this is more common than I think, and it's the way I approach said attacks that nullifies any chance of it happening.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 02:24:57 AM by Funen1 »
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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #287 on: August 13, 2010, 05:03:01 AM »
For Kogasa's 2nd card, I do really hate those weird spawn points.
However, it's also partly because with so many bullets packed in the same place,
it wrecks harvoc on my ability to read bullets (like is this one pointing vertically going UP or DOWN?),
which makes me panic, as although only 1/4 have remotely any chance of hitting me, I don't know which ones.

Formless God

Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #288 on: August 13, 2010, 05:24:02 AM »
Kogasa's 2nd card never gets me if I hang around the Enemy sign. UFO Stage 2 enemies have delay frames so I never stay on top of them for too long either.
But Scarlet Gensokyo, ugh, it's easy to get killed by a spawning bullet by successfully dodging the superdense bubble wave. Thanks to the random firing angle you either end up on a safe area, or the bubble's trail.

Memorization in shmups
It's my biggest pet-peeve too, but I usually just convince myself with "this part can be done easily with memorization, but with enough skill I can make it out just fine anyways" and "keep playing it over and over". Funny it's how I got my 1ccs in UFO (no UFO routes) and DDP (no superplays, no savestates).

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #289 on: August 13, 2010, 05:43:04 AM »
I don't find Scarlet Gensokyo much of a problem in terms of bullet spawning points.
I mean, as long as you don't move more than one tap away, you won't get spawned on even in the dense areas.
It's those lolwalls that come at the same time as the superdense bubble wave that get me.

I hate the memorization as well, especially those that have small margin of error (UFO!), where you really can't screw up.

Then there is the lag problem, which I solved just now with the wonderful vsync patch.
Unfortunately, it didn't work for my English-patched EoSD.

Formless God

Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #290 on: August 13, 2010, 06:00:50 AM »
You have to rename the English launcher to either 東方紅魔郷.exe or ?????g????.exe , if it still fails you can run the game in 640x480 screen resolution :/

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #291 on: August 13, 2010, 06:27:39 AM »
In Touhou, most bullets-that-might-spawn-on-top of you don't bother me at all. It's made obvious in Kogasa's second card where they spawn, and the enemies that explode when you hit them are pretty easy to control. Eirin's second non-card even on Lunatic is pretty fair in this regard, too.

Dying to Vamp Illusion / Scarlet Gensokyo because of bullets that have a super long delay time just makes my day. I laugh my ass off at stuff like that.
Seriously this is even more dumb than that and it's fucking hilarious.

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #292 on: August 13, 2010, 07:10:55 AM »
I love you so much, Ruro.

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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #293 on: August 13, 2010, 10:56:53 AM »
Bullets that spawn in unpredictable locations and that are not prevented from spawning in extreme proximity to the player are pretty bullshitty, but off the top of my head I can't think of patterns like this in touhou.
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Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
« Reply #294 on: August 13, 2010, 02:03:12 PM »
In Touhou, most bullets-that-might-spawn-on-top of you don't bother me at all. It's made obvious in Kogasa's second card where they spawn, and the enemies that explode when you hit them are pretty easy to control. Eirin's second non-card even on Lunatic is pretty fair in this regard, too.

Dying to Vamp Illusion / Scarlet Gensokyo because of bullets that have a super long delay time just makes my day. I laugh my ass off at stuff like that.
Seriously this is even more dumb than that and it's fucking hilarious.

Kogasa's sc (at least on Normal) is usually.. "if the blue circle containing her is small, avoid the center; if it expands itself, go towards it to damage her as the bullets aren't as condensed"

the second video reminds me of these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMU8CHdXyvA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VNrkaqkR-s

also, to illustrate what I've complained about EoSD before..
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=9579

(and here are some of my previous attempts, they may be less interesting, though, since I didn't memorize the game well enough back then [1])
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=9577
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=9539

[1] under one week of trying to 1cc it, while challenging a friend of mine (who've 1cc'd it before) to reach DDP's second loop before I 1cc EoSD Lunatic :p  (could've challenged him to reach 5,500,000 points in Varth instead, as I had to play it without pods until stage 16.. shouldn't I have gotten that score after said Lunatic 1cc)
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.