Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)

[Iryan]

[18:05] <Drake> http://www.break.com/games/sheepshooting.html
[18:06] <Drake> Do this for hours, try to get as fast as you can

[attachimg=1]

I can has win?


And UFO does not require substantially more memorization than the previous games. Certainly not in the danmaku itself.
The "ufo route" thing is not the big matter everyone makes it out to be. For one, memorizing about when which UFOs pop up in a given stage is not really any different from memorizing which danmaku comes at which part of the stage, or where you strategically position yourself to kill the approaching enemies as fast as possible; You know, things that you do in every other touhou game (and pretty much every other shmup); Things that come naturally after a few attempts.
Furthermore, an actual rigid route won't help you unless you make next to no mistake. If you miss a single UFO that you planned on getting, you'll have to improvise anyways.

If you don't like the game, that's your right, I don't care. It is all a matter of taste. When making actual criticism, however, people will disagree if they believe the criticism to be flawed.

[Bananamatic]

Played lunatic? I found hard to be easy even sightread if you memorized an ufo route.

Try BWR original. If you can identify streaming and see paths in the patterns, there is no excuse for not 1ccing with Guard on.

UFO forces you to do illogical crap which you can't identify that simply. Circling around the screen is usually a last resort maneuver with no bombs, not the only way to clear the attack.
Hard lets you stream it, which should be the first reaction to it if you play shmups. Lunatic doesn't.

and lol at the sheep game
got rocketing rabbit, 4 of them at 0.167/8

To be honest, unless you are a Feveron nut or excessively rely on deathbombs, this isn't going to help you.

[Iryan]

UFO forces you to do illogical crap which you can't identify that simply. Circling around the screen is usually a last resort maneuver with no bombs, not the only way to clear the attack.
Hard lets you stream it, which should be the first reaction to it if you play shmups. Lunatic doesn't.

Basic logic: If you try to stream the attack from left to right or vice versa and you don't get an opening, continue streaming in a circle. Circling is the next logical step, and it does come naturally.
The latter half of stage 3 is balls to the walls hard, though, I'll give yout that.

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

Yeah, like you can really stream that garbage in a circle either. And I wouldn't even want to mess with it with a nonReimuB type since SanaeA's homing is useless.

[Bananamatic]

The point is, that in say, DDP, streaming in a circle is risky because enemies that get on the screen shoot right away.

If you fail to restream, bomb. I don't remember many attacks in Touhou where you had to restream, though...either way, most of the fairies fire with some sort of delay instead of quickly flying in and spamming bullets.

You still need to learn the timing to pull it off as well. The difficulty shouldn't be all over the place, especially not in the earlier stages.

St4 is amazing fun, I'll give it that. But st5 again turns into mindless path following without any chance to improvise.
How many ways are there to dodge the final orb spam on lunatic anyways?

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

I have no idea. The way I use on Hard still has a minor luck element to it, but it's the only way I've got for it.

[nintendonut888]

I fail to understand why so many people rage over circling around in an attack that requires it. You don't complain every time you have to stream, do you?

Yeah, like you can really stream that garbage in a circle either. And I wouldn't even want to mess with it with a nonReimuB type since SanaeA's homing is useless.

Just say the word and I'll produce a replay that captures that phase. With Reimu A. The only part I'd consider BS is getting into the starting position, which is only really a problem if you managed to not bomb the previous part of the stage.

[Bananamatic]

Because circling in shmups is
1) suicidal
2) retarded

I won't be surprised if Touhou 13 has a boss which you have to tackle in order to damage it.

[orinrin]

I won't be surprised if Touhou 13 has a boss which you have to tackle in order to damage it.

Innovation.

[Bananamatic]

Innovation.

seeing how I always ram Hourai Elixir, maybe this would be easier to find out than circling and other weird shenanigans

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

That's not even the only time in UFO where you're circling either. There's the preNazrin orb spam too. At least there it's always doable. If you're not in the right spot when the stage 3 one starts, you'll probably end up flying into a fairy. And of course there' Vajra which is a garbage card anyway in the memorize or you will die/bomb way.

At least circling in other games in the series was limited to certain boss cards and wasn't even necessary for them. The only ones I can even think of are from Mokou and Eirin.

Edit: And Suwako has one too.

[Naut]

So basically you all suck at moving in a circle. There, was that hard to admit?

Seriously, you picked that to bitch about? Come on.

[Bananamatic]

I don't circle Iwakasa's Curse myself  :V

Suwako and Eirin made it obvious that the attack was designed for you to circle it, and you figure it out immediately.

This isn't. It seems like an impossible streaming attack, but you are supposed to circle it and the game doesn't give a slightest hint of it.

It's supposed to be a shmup, not a trial/error puzzle game.

[Zengeku]

You're playing shmups.
Suck it up.

I guess MoF, SA, IN, PCB and EoSD is something different then because in those games there is no problem.

If you gotta implement a lot of spellcards that require getting used to the strategies required/memorizing the pattern there should be spell practice. Now for UFO there should be added an additional non-spell practice and part-of-stage section to minimize grinding. I hate spending time doing nothing just to get to the interesting parts. If the goal for example is to work out the pattern of the end stage portion of UFO Stage 3 you have to go through the entirity of Stage 3 just for one shot at it and as i certainly don't find the pattern to be obvious this is going to take some time.

Really, in UFO memorization feels like key to victory. In the earlier games it felt more like you could bomb those parts that required memorization, get your 1cc and go back and work out the few things where you always had to bomb. Like SA Stage 3 for example. I got my 1cc of SA long before memorizing how Stage 3 is handled.

[LHCling]

How many ways are there to dodge the final orb spam on lunatic anyways?

4 distinct methods, each with their own merits, consequences and whatnot. 5 if you count planning a bomb. 6 if you're the type of person who summons a UFO closer to the end of the stage. This excludes mirror movement.

If you're not in the right spot when the stage 3 one starts, you'll probably end up flying into a fairy.

You can start from just about anywhere on the screen actually.

• Left-side: Move up and right
• Middle: The same as the above
• Right-side: Hug that side so you destroy the fairies as soon as they come in

Use your options better to avoid collision with fairies. Though, even at 1.xx Power you can still easily go through them since your base shot covers your rear to a very small degree.

This isn't. It seems like an impossible streaming attack, but you are supposed to circle it and the game doesn't give a slightest hint of it.

Basic logic: If you try to stream the attack from left to right or vice versa and you don't get an opening, continue streaming in a circle. Circling is the next logical step, and it does come naturally.

[Zengeku]

You're playing shmups.
Suck it up.

I guess MoF, SA, IN, PCB and EoSD is something different then because in those games there is no problem.

If you gotta implement a lot of spellcards that require getting used to the strategies required/memorizing the pattern there should be spell practice. Now for UFO there should be added an additional non-spell practice and part-of-stage section to minimize grinding. I hate spending time doing nothing just to get to the interesting parts. If the goal for example is to work out the pattern of the end stage portion of UFO Stage 3 you have to go through the entirity of Stage 3 just for one shot at it and as i certainly don't find the pattern to be obvious this is going to take some time.

Really, in UFO memorization feels like key to victory. In the earlier games it felt more like you could bomb those parts that required memorization, get your 1cc and go back and work out the few things where you always had to bomb. Like SA Stage 3 for example. I got my 1cc of SA long before memorizing how Stage 3 is handled.

So basically you all suck at moving in a circle. There, was that hard to admit?

Seriously, you picked that to bitch about? Come on.

Seriously. I haven't even bothered to try and learn it. When i heard that was how you did it my immediate thoughts wasn't "oh so that's how its done!". It was more like "zun is retarded. How does that make sense?"

[Formless God]

I guess MoF, SA, IN, PCB and EoSD is something different then because in those games I have no problem.

You mean this.

How many ways are there to dodge the final orb spam on lunatic anyways?

384. Easier toward the corners, harder toward the center. But it never gets impossible.

[nintendonut888]

Seriously. I haven't even bothered to try and learn it.

Okay, I'm sorry if I come off as haughty here, but what the hell? You can't refuse to learn something "because it's retarded" and then complain about how you die there. You know what? Back when I was playing SoEW hard/lunatic, I thought Mima was the worst designed boss ever. It seemed nearly half her attacks were either undodgeable or impossible unless you predicted them. I 1cc'd lunatic by getting there with enough bombs and spamming her to death.

But one day, when I was a wiser player (and had an emulator with savestates), I decided to see if there was any way to dodge one of these "undodgable" attacks. I spent quite a while on the same attack, when I realized some things: The attacks always came in the same sequence, and said attack, once it was made predictable, could be misdirected into something completely harmless. Eventually, I managed to perfect Mima, who I thought was the worst designed boss in the series. Do I still believe this?

Of freaking course! Attacks that become 100% undodgeable unless you predict it? An entire fight based upon bad design and coming down to memorizing each and every attack in sequence, it's terrible! Yet I did it anyway. Maybe I'm just masochistic, but rather than thinking "this is impossible, this is stupid, what was ZUN thinking," you SHOULD be asking yourself "what WAS ZUN thinking," and try and figure it out. I'm not asking you to care about UFO, I'm not asking you to say that it isn't stupid, but I implore you to try and figure out an attack before calling it impossible.

[Bananamatic]

I play shmups to have fun and shoot shit.

If I wanted to do science, I'd do something useful. Like frog autopsy.

If a shmup beats me, it's because I'm not skilled enough. Because I can't control rank. Because I'm not good enough for the second loop. Because I did stupid mistakes. Because I can't score for extends or chain medals for them.

Not because I'm refusing to learn two pages of theory for of one attack.

Shmups are supposed to be fun. This isn't fun.
Shmups are supposed to be easy to pick up, simple to learn but hard to master.

If you just pick up UFO lunatic to shoot stuff, you'll always die to the same attacks because you have to learn them.

If you want to advance somewhere in UFO lunatic, you don't practice. You grab a shitload of replays and micromemorize the stages.

PCB is fun. It's dodging, it's fair, there are no tricks.
Anyone can just play it by shooting and sightreading. The gimmicks are limited to "oh that was aimed, didn't notice" and "didn't know they only shoot when you shoot them"
Everything up to IN is pretty much the same. Touhou games were slow, but casually playable.

Then ZUN decided to remove continues, and you could no longer take it easy without playing below your skill level.

I love to play BWR on Hell even though it kicks my ass. DDP loop 2 is amazing fun when you throw in 9 credits and just try to dodge. And you feel like a superplayer when you actually pull something good off. It's fun.

To play UFO, you gotta be HARDCORE. And that's no fun in a mostly casual genre.
The game simply boots you out on stage 2/3, and even if you get a .dat, you'll be stuck with your peashooter if you screw around. The game won't even let you play it.

MoF and SA were heavily bombable, but halfway in the UFO problem.

[Sen]

Really, in UFO memorization feels like key to victory. In the earlier games it felt more like you could bomb those parts that required memorization, get your 1cc and go back and work out the few things where you always had to bomb. Like SA Stage 3 for example. I got my 1cc of SA long before memorizing how Stage 3 is handled.

And the game that gives out bombs like candy can't be bombed? :/

[Azinth]

This isn't fun.

then play something else

[Vibri]

Yeah holy god people, if UFO lunatic makes you so angry and miserable just don't play it.  You don't have to 1cc it.  I am VgameT and my word is law.

I'm a pretty bad player and I've barely touched UFO on the whole, but I thought normal mode was pretty dope.  I guess it turns out that, if you play a game on the hardest difficulty, it's hard.  If it's so hard that it's not fun, or it's a type of hard that you don't find fun, you seriously should just not bother with it.  Don't spend a bunch of time doing something that makes you feel bad, that's fucking dumb.  Jesus.

[Zengeku]

Don't spend a bunch of time doing something that makes you feel bad, that's fucking dumb.  Jesus.

The fact there is a Touhou game i haven't beat yet is nagging me like all hell. But playing it is a pain. I'm just here to support the fact that ZUN fucked up. I gave up any attempts at clearing the game a while ago.

Okay, I'm sorry if I come off as haughty here, but what the hell? You can't refuse to learn something "because it's retarded" and then complain about how you die there.

I can. Because in the other Touhou games i didn't have to learn everything to do be succesful.

And... did you just compare UFO Lunatic to SoEW Lunatic? :V I guess we have come to an agreement.

[nintendonut888]

No, I did not. I used a game I think to be bad and unfun to compare it to your situation. My whole point is that just because something is stupid or unfun doesn't mean you can't learn it and beat it, if you really want to.

I can. Because in the other Touhou games i didn't have to learn everything to do be succesful.

Then learn, if you really care about beating UFO, even if it's just to get it over with. After all, you said yourself you don't want to be satisfied with a 1cc you just barely got. To do better, you'd have to go back and learn everything anyway. You can't expect to win just by trying the same thing over and over with the same mindset.

[Zengeku]

Then learn, if you really care about beating UFO, even if it's just to get it over with.

Now that sounds like a waste of time. Its like this: I want to win but hell no i'm spending all that time to learn everything. That shouldn't be necessary. It wasn't before, if it suddenly is then it sucks as far as i'm concerned. Its like if Double Spoiler gave you a bunch of lives and if you ran out you had to start over from the beginning.

After all, you said yourself you don't want to be satisfied with a 1cc you just barely got.

That only goes for games i consider to be masterpieces. If i don't like it then any clear will suffice. Like clearing PoFV with Aya or just barely clearing LLS.

[Formless God]

- I beat previous Toehoe games with ease
- UFO rapes me
-> UFO sux

Just how good do you think you are anyway ?

[Inactive person]

I heard someone complain because Touhou games were too easy, but when ZUN did his best to make it harder, people whines because you actually need to create patterns to beat it :V.  He's making Touhou by himself, give him a break.

[Zengeku]

- I beat previous Toehoe games with ease
- UFO rapes me
-> UFO sux

Just how good do you think you are anyway ?

Not good enough for a game in which Stage 2 bosses have harder spells than VoWG apparently.

[Formless God]

No, you are not good enough.

[Zengeku]

No, you are not good enough.

That just contradicts what i'm usually told about UFO. That its not too much harder than the other Touhou games.

He's making Touhou by himself, give him a break.

And not before now, it shows.