Dwarf Fortress Mafia: Game Over - Town Win

[Pesco]

Pesco's cat not even trying to push his case in any way makes me think that he was just trying to look like he's doing something when he voted Zak. Then he abandons it completely for Benny, who got 3 votes before hand. Useless cases! Bandwagonning!

My cat will eat you

Is my case on Zak better than the one on Benny?

[Benny1]

If a single vote doesn't matter unless you're at the brink of a lynch, why is L-4 dangerous? Why are you so scared of putting serious pressure on someone when that's pretty much the only way out of the RVS?

Rou, L-4 was dangerous in my head because of misconceptions about the way Mafia works and how to get out of the RVS.  I cannot say it any better than that.

Rou's right. When you added the "I did not want to put them to L-4 because I feel that is too much like a quicklynch" part in, it sounds like you're trying too hard to distance yourself from the idea of encouraging quicklynching.  Pretty much anything short of L-1 is safe enough from quicklynching, especially in a game with an eight-vote majority. Vote stands.

Zakeri, the reason I am trying to distance myself from the idea of quicklynching is because I didn't support it in the first place and seemed to because I did not word things properly.  I am also not overly impressed by your wonderful reasoning of "the reasons have been put in other posts, so I guess I'll vote for you," especially after supporting the bandwagon while not voting on it yourself.  What are you trying to accomplish?  Why would you say "I guess I'll vote for you" after supporting the bandwagon yourself, as this seems very contradictory.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Guys, um, Benny1 is being a retard, he is not being Scummy. I will agree that his initial post reads rather badly (principally for his useage of the word "only" there - seems to suggest a quicklynch mentality as Kefit suggested), but after you factor in the NoobFactor(TM), I'm not sure if it's worth wagoning him over. Especially not that rapidly. Speaking of the wagon...

I am not liking the pattern of "Kefit posts a case+vote on Benny1, Zakeri posts some crap about Benny1 being Scummy, Kefit yells at Zakeri, Zakeri finally votes for Benny1 now". Kefit's pretty much perfectly fine here, but I dislike the fact that Zakeri only shifted his vote from his RVS vote when prompted by someone else.

I am very much disliking Roukan voting for Benny1 for what is nothing more than a painfully stupid NewbieError(TM). Claiming that L-3 is fine but L-4 is quicklynch-potential is nothing more than a NewbieMistake(TM) and a null tell for the most part, and it perplexes me that you didn't vote for him earlier when there was (slightly) more reason to, y'know, actually vote him.

Pеsco, however, wins the prize. Come on, you're voting Benny1 for asking Kilga clarification about a post of his? While I can't see why Benny1'd have an issue over that post of Kilga's, it's still an absolutely asinine reason to vote someone because they asked for the reasoning/meaning behind a statement that someone else made.

##Vote: Pеsco

[LHCling]

First and foremost... this wordfilter is hilarious. Honestly Pes-co should just rename to Pesco for the sake of having fun with the theme, but that infringes with the rule of name changing so...   :ohdear:

Next, I believe this is in order
##Unvote: Carthrat

My cat thinks this is good enough to start being serious.

Alright. I THINK we're getting more serious now

...are we still in the RVS? I'm not sure right now.

Sorry about the multi-quote like this, but I'd say that Rou is doing something pretty strange here. Not enough for me to cast a vote though. It is however, deserving of a FoS.

Lurkers should be given some attention as well I believe; I'm counting 3. Cut by a scamming booth with pretty much the same idea.
Speaking of, I would like their opinion. NS? HW? bofh (Alice)? CUT.
##Vote: HW choosing one lurker at random. Any of these three two would be fine in my opinion (though I do know for a fact that bofh is quite a busy person and has a lurk meta in place since... forever). Either way, RVS has ended analyze plz.

Other case(s) have been noted. Benny may or may not be starting an AbsoluteDefense^TM but it's far too early to call at this juncture. His reasons for voting (or rather, not voting) are quite terrible; there's >48 hours (This part is probably an IIoA by the time I finish up this post).

Cut cut cut cut! I do not like playing while sick! I end up analyzing at about a quarter my speed  :|
ARRRRGH GETTING THIS OUT HERE NOW and having breakfast; all posts after the votecount will be read later.
Pes-co: Does your cat have a name. All pets must have a name.
(jokes outside of RVS? Ludicrous)
Edible: I take it you were responsible for the filter?

[LHCling]

EBWOP: "I'm counting 3" from myself
Should be 2 for quite obvious reasons if you look at the rest of the post.

[LHCling]

And this shouldn't have been struck through like that.

Either way, RVS has ended analyze plz.

Yay triple.

[FallenAngelVI]

Uhhh alright then a quick one before bed.

Still don't like Kilga. All his recent posts have been defensive with a side order of jokes and as of #72 he's shown no serious interest in pursuing anyone. I'm getting something akin to an active lurking vibe from him.

However, Zak's now usurped him as The Scummiest. The guilt comment thing didn't bother me, but since then he's been regurgitating serious cases while still leaving his RVS vote down, and then #77 has him slapping down an appeasing vote after Kefit's prompt. Very bad. ##Unvote, Vote: Zakeri

Will comment on Benny stuff after classes tomorrow. If I don't see posts by Alice, Neo, Baity and huh what by then I'm going to start breaking out the day-vigs.

Edit: Cut by both Alice and Baity!

[Pesco]

My cat does have a name. She's Kith Eloltatek. The red C in the pic in the OP :3. I tried changing my name a moment ago, but the wordfilter is preventing me from doing so I believe.

bofh: I don't see why Benny should be getting newbie slack since I was under the impression that he wasn't a newb. And if we were to take the player pool into account, I would not give anyone slack for newb play.

I didn't like that bit from Benny because it was fluff. It was not even directly asking for clarification. It's more along the lines of flinging whatever sticks.

Cut: I find Zak's later actions to be null. I think his guilt comment to be more indicative of scummy because it's weak fearmongering. And that does mean I am fine with Benny or Zak hanging at this point in time.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Baity: I wasn't online since Zak's post voting me. I have school, derp.

Real post coming soon possibly. Kinda tied up atm.

[Benny1]

Pesco, this is the first game of mafia I've played, but yes, I'd actually prefer not being cut newb slack, I have a perfectly working brain and if I can't figure this out that is my fault.

Also, the guilt comment is completely irrelevant at this point, Pesco, what we're talking about is Zakeri's hesitation to jump on my bandwagon while still supporting it, and then quickly jumping on it with prompting from Kefit, you are dodging that issue, please make your comments on that, not his guilt comment.  I do not believe this bandwagoning issue is null and I would like to see why you think it is.

##Unvote: Kilgamayan
I do not know at this point whether or not I feel either Pesco or Zakeri is scum, and I'd like to see a response from Zakeri, and I'd like to see Pesco actually address the issue, rather than talk about moot points.  Both of those are scummier than Kilga though, and I will wait to see responses from both to see who I think I should vote on, because both are just dodging issues or not posting.

Until then, I will put a vote on our other nice little lurker, because no posting by this point is no good, not to mention huh what cut me off and promised a post.

##Vote:NeoSerela

[FinnKaenbyou]

Rou, L-4 was dangerous in my head because of misconceptions about the way Mafia works and how to get out of the RVS.  I cannot say it any better than that.

I'm going to take you on your word for this one for now, mainly because I've been guilty of this myself as Town and I'm not sure how experienced you are. ##Unvote
I'm not taking my eye off you completely - actively claiming a noob defense is slightly WIFOMy - but there's better out there. Does anyone here know how experienced Benny actually is? (Ninja'd by him saying it's his first game, so I'll let it slide for now.)

Zakeri's jumping onto the Benny wagon after Kefit tells him to is the first genuinely scummy thing he's done so far. A very genuine case of cheerleading, followed by 'I agree with what Rou just said, which makes me helpful!'. Pesco I'm back to being indifferent on - in retrospect I probably overdid it when I attacked him for what was effectively the first real case to emerge from the RVS. >_>

On that note, Kilga and Carth have yet to say Useful Stuff (beyond insisting the other is scum during the RVS, anyway), and Kilga's still off in Super-Dreamy-Happy-Land. I wouldn't mind him coming back to earth to at least show some sentience.

HW has yet to contribute to RVS at all, and Neo hasn't posted since his starting jokevote. I know there are people who don't post often in Day 1, but this is just ridiculous.

I'd vote all the lurkers if I could, but for now I'll ##Vote: Carth because no-one has brought him up yet.

Ninja'd by HW promising a post.

[Pesco]

Benny: My cat finds Zak null because of brohood and meta from over 25 games together. Basically, Mindhax^TM did not ping on his vote movements but picked up on his comment more strongly. I still find him suspicious but for reasons completely different from the norm.

There appears to be a difference in our intention tactics. You've listed me and Zak as top scummy, but now make a throwaway vote instead of pressing for one of our lynches. There is no reason to move my vote.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

HW has yet to contribute to RVS at all

What? I made a couple jokevotes.

Also, on second thought, I probably won't be able to post today at all, kinda grounded atm and shouldn't even be here right now. Don't think I'll need a replacement yet though.

[LHCling]

Baity: I wasn't online since Zak's post voting me. I have school, derp.

Real post coming soon possibly. Kinda tied up atm.

Whoops, forgot that you were from SoCal (or somewhere abouts) which is something like 6-7 hours ahead of my time.

However, vote will stay for now in case of an active lurk.

Cut: Can't read, late for classes.
Cut 2:  :| But noted.

[WHMZakeri]

Yeah, yeah. I'll be the first to admit that I should have switched my vote one post earlier. At the time I posted that vote switch I had meant it as an EBWOP rather than having it be a prod from someone else.

Benny's already explained everything I wanted him to, so keeping a vote on him except to lynch would just be useless now. I'll buy that Benny's miswording is a null-tell, but saying stuff like "it's a null-tell" or "just useless wifom" worries me since I've had that sort of reasoning bite me in the ass pretty severely before.

I want to switch my vote back to Huh what, due in part to lurking, but mostly because I don't like how he handled RVS. He made a jokevote, and then dropped it in order to steal another person's jokevote. I don't actually see any reason for him to not just leave it at that, unless Huh what and Roukan were scumpartners or something like that. I could easily dismiss that as idiottown though except for the instant OMGUS right after I voted him.

Cut by, well, everyone including huh what. I guess I'll wait for him to explain that then. in the meantime, ##Unvote, ##Vote Huh what[/b]

Also, did Rou just resort to voting for a lurker after saying I was scum?
Cut by Pesco: god damn it, I'll never be able to claim saying anything other than "I agree with X" at this rate.

Cut by Huh what: FFFFFFFFFFffffffffffffff...

[WHMZakeri]

Edit: ##Unvote, ##Vote Huh what
I'll go ahead and add Active lurking to the charge.

[Benny1]

I am not even remotely satisfied by that post, Pesco.  I understand playing 25 games give you a better idea of playstyle but I don't think any sort of playstyle justifies the voteswitching he did.  You say he is suspicious in a sense but I don't believe your reasons have been explained yet.  I think any sort of a reason you may have for him is, as you admitted, different than the norm, and this just makes it look like you are evading issues, because you're still not giving us solid reasons.  Relying on Mindhax^TM is not what I want to see for your justification of his vote changing not being scummy.  I understand fully you say his suspicion comes from his odd comment, but that seems to me like RVS nonsense, and I don't believe that's something you could peg scum from.

Also, do you think Rou saying Zakeri is suspicious and then voting for a lurker is reasonable?  Because he did the same thing, admittedly a second before you posted.

There, now I'm not happy with you, you seem to be unhappy with me not voting for one of the two of you, so I'll rectify that.

##Unvote: NeoSerela
##Vote: Pesco

NS, you still need to be posting.  We now have a lurker and an active lurker, not to mention Rat saying nothing really, and Kilga babbling.  We don't need more lurkers.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Also, did Rou just resort to voting for a lurker after saying I was scum?

Am I not allowed to find the fact that two players who are normally contributive and useful have decided to offer absolutely nothing scummy enough to place a vote on? I felt Carth needed to get prodded in particular because while he hadn't lurked quite like some other players, what he's said has been inherently useless and he hasn't got the same attention Kilga did for it.
We didn't press the lurkers hard enough in Mafioso Mafia, and look what happened there. >_>

[Serp]

VOTE COUNT  -  Defiant Against the Wordfilter Edition

Zakeri (4): FAV, NeoSerela, huh what, Pesco, Excal
Pesco (3): MSB, Alice, Roukanken, huh what, Benny1
Benny1 (2): Kefit, Excal, Zakeri, Roukanken, Pesco
Carthrat (2): Baity, Excal, Kilgamayan, Roukanken
huh what (2): Baity, Benny1, Zakeri
Kilgamayan (1): Carthrat, FAV, Benny1
NeoSerela (0): Benny1
FAV (0): Kefit, Pesco, Kilgamayan
Kefit (0): Roukanken, FAV
Roukanken (0):  MSB
MSB (0): huh what

Eight votes are required to lynch.  48 hours remain in the day.

[Carthrat]

Rou: You're voting me for lurking because I haven't made a post in 11 hours since RVS? I'm.. sorry for sleeping? Is this some kind of jokey prodvote? Try to vote people you actually would see lynched, since I don't believe for a second you actually expect that to go anywhere or even want it too.

LAL DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY, try it again on day 2. What we are looking for there is not 'oh someone hasn't posted since RVS' but 'someone has been consistently quiet and useless when pressed'.

Case on Benny seems a bit odd, 'clearly trying to get us into the quicklynch mentality', Zak, Excal? Do people ever... do that, I don't even understand how you go about it or anything. I'm more surprised at Excal for bringing it up as a reason to vote him in the first place, not to mention his quick escape after things started to heat up to dive onto Zak, who.. .doesn't look that scummy to me! I don't find Zak's voteswitch terribly scummy (scum would pad out an agreement post 9/10 times, it's day 1 and there aren't all that many points to work off). Also pointing out how Zak tried to do things 'without voting' rings hollow since he did in fact vote Benny rather swiftly during his time here.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Excal illegitimate reason for both his votes. Also, there's the way he posted his switch to Zak, which seemed to indicate his Benny wagon wasn't really a vote on scumminess to begin with but some kind of fact-finding exercise?

[WHMZakeri]

Am I not allowed to find the fact that two players who are normally contributive and useful have decided to offer absolutely nothing scummy enough to place a vote on? I felt Carth needed to get prodded in particular because while he hadn't lurked quite like some other players, what he's said has been inherently useless and he hasn't got the same attention Kilga did for it.
We didn't press the lurkers hard enough in Mafioso Mafia, and look what happened there. >_>

Fair enough.

[Carthrat]

@Zak: Is it really? I think he's severely jumping the gun there.

[Kefit]

Allow me to clarify something:

My vote on Benny was not placing because he was pushing for a quicklynch. While it certainly appeared that he was indeed doing that, I can't consider such a naked push to be anything more than a null tell. Rather, I see it as a noob tell. Benny's subsequent responses to the pressure placed upon him just affirm his noobishness in my eyes.

What DOES bother me is that Benny pushed for quicklynch and then placed a vote that wouldn't accomplish this goal in the same post. His actions don't reflect his words. Stuff like this can be an unconscious slip-up on the part of scum - the less earnest one is about a case, the less likely one is to notice if it isn't completely coherent. I'm tempted to back off of Benny now due to his stumbling behavior during the bandwagon against him (scum would have buddies to help him through something like this), but the initial tell still bothers me. Also, I'd like to maintain at least a little pressure on him. A reminder that a case against him exists, if nothing else.

As for other players, I think that a couple of people could stand to be a bit less flippant, but I know damn well that's not going to happen from someone who shall remain cat-less. I Would like to see something substantive from Kilga - come on, if Alice and I are showing up this early then you really have no excuse. Willing to give HW a pass for the moment, I know first hand that he has no need or desire to lurk as scum.

Rat: I had a bit of the same inkling towards Excal and his apparent "fact-finding exercise." Your post reminded me that I need to ask something of the people who have experience playing with Excal: Does he routinely make use of similar fact gathering schemes?

[FinnKaenbyou]

What we are looking for there is not 'oh someone hasn't posted since RVS' but 'someone has been consistently quiet and useless when pressed'.

But of course we need to press first before we can determine that, and that's exactly what that vote was for - so you had to emerge and produce and there was no excuse like 'I was sleeping' to sit back and do nothing. A message to the lurkers to show that we really are watching for once. And besides that, the interaction between you two sort of rubbed me the wrong way, but since you've posted I'll gladly let it slide. ##Unvote

Carth's vote convinced me to look over Excal, and sure enough he switched from 'Benny's quicklynching makes me superserious!' to 'just kidding guys, Benny's actually just a noob'. There's information gathering on a semi-decent target, and there's trying to start a wagon on a player you KNOW hasn't done anything wrong.

Where I disagree with Carth, though, is his comment on Zakeri's swiftness. He regurgitates Excal's quicklynch reasoning word for word here but stays away until Kefit calls him out on it. That combined with his head-nodding back here is a hell of a lot of copying other people's cases while bringing nothing new to the table.

##Vote: Zakeri

[Sodium]

Pesco: It isn't hard to be better than an obvBandwagonVote. Not that I that's the thing I really have a problem with; I'm more concerned over how you actually handled your case on Zak.

Would like Kilga and Neo to poast.

Meh, nothing much changed. Benny still being derpTown, although less. Don't really like Baity deciding to just vote lurkers, but whatever. Am interested in the Excal case because of his sudden change in opinion on Benny pointed out by other people. No strong feelings either way for Zak case. Keeping vote on Pesco.

[Serela]

This is a really bad week to suddenly have a life.

Anyway, now that I've finally managed to get online, I'd like to apologize for not being here for over 24 hours, although at least it was early D1 and not a time where it might make a pretty big difference for 1 player to not be here.

First off, ##Unvote:Zakeri. I'm not convinced Zakeri is innocent, but I'm not highly believing he's scum either. And I don't really like the L-3 he's at right now. Then again, taking in 3 pages of Mafia at once isn't good for proper information digestion... for now though, not really feeling right with my vote on him. That being said, *rereads thread*

Okay, reading on Excal's posts makes me go a bit... "huh". Here, he pretty much goes "What Kefit said, plus [terrible reason that no one has ever heard of]." In 86, he gets off Benny because of a building badwagon (not a typo), then goes after Zakeri, the one who's also got a nice number of votes on him at the time. Admittedly, the reason on voting Zakeri isn't bad, but it's also exactly what Zak did last game, where he flipped Town. And according to Pesco, this seems to be average Zakeri play.

However, that leaves the fact that I said it's not a bad reason at first glance. So I went and reviewed the posts Zak wrote before Excal made his vote. Excal said Zakeri was egging on others without leaving a vote himself, which is not true. Zak was indeed voting for the person he was arguing on. It's a bit suspicious how he took an extra post after making the case to do so, but it was still done before Excal's Zakvote, so I don't find it a particularly great reason. Coupled with the quicklynch reason for voting Benny, which was just...

##Vote:Excal

[WHMZakeri]

There wasn't really anything new for me to bring up when I voted. I said as much in post 77.

I somehow Missed Carthrat's post when he cut me in 109.
Yes, I still think it's a fair enough point. I understand Rou's sort of jumping up and around, but his reply that I quoted reads much more like townrou being paranoid than it would scumrou trying to find a safe place to put a vote.

Cut by NS: Hi!
It looks like I've been ignoring Excal for some reason, largely due to not having an avatar until just recently.
I'm already getting pretty stressed out now, so forgive me if I put that off until (rl) tomorrow.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Sup. Apologies for D1 Wall, but I haven't made a real post since RVS and feel obligated to reply to each post that sticks out to me as odd because I'm stupid.

Zak acting as if he knows Kilga is town comes off as superderp to me. I'm just going to assume he was joking, because if that was a slipup it'd be really obvious and it's so "what" I can't take it as a tell for either side. Pesko jumping on him for this seems kinda silly but nothing was going on so it's understandable. But why is he refusing to budge?

Vi #57: Why should more people be voting him? Because he was being defensive? <_< Benny's jump on Kilga unsettles me as well, especially since #67 implies he wants a Kilga lynch asap to start something (unless I'm misreading). Kilga's #48 didn't even come off as overly defensive to me, there wasn't much for him to defend himself against, he was just answering questions.

Kilga does, however, need to make a serious post. All of his posts just feel like he's joking around to me.

Pesko: Will you please stop it with the worldfilter shenanigans? It makes the posts really annoying to read (esp. yours). If you're roleplaying based on your role or something, I'm cool with that, but you could at least try to not wreck other people's posts with a wordfilter.

Kefit #76: But didn't the latter part of Zak's paragraph involve Benny's vote on Kilga? Zakeri not voting until prompted is odd though.

Benny #78: What's wrong with putting a vote on Zakeri or Pesko at that juncture if you find them scummy? It's highly unlikely anybody will quicklynch a person at L-4 during ED1, and if they do, they'd probably become an instant suspect. Also, you were putting Kilga at L-5 with your vote even though you apparently think it's bad to vote on wagons that're L-5. Do you just hate the number 4?

Benny in general: Wow you're formal. I keep reading your posts in the voice of a psychiatrist.

Pesko #83: Do you have anything to say other than that while wagon jumpan? <_< Also, that's a silly point against Benny anyway. What's wrong with asking for clarification?

Benny #84: On second thought. Why are you voting somebody for a post you don't even know if you should be taking seriously?

Zakeri #82:

Pesko #90: Maybe it would be if you actually explained it properly!

Baity #93: I've been sleeping or at school since a while after Zak's post about childcare during RVS, so it's not like I could have posted. Aside from that, your idea of lurker lynching seems somewhat messed up. We're in the middle of D1 and only just left the RVS. Lurking should probably draw notice atm but lynching lurkers right now is silly. If they're still lurking D2 then that's a problem but your vote on me seems rash.

So uh, what do you think is wrong with Benny? Also, what is an Absolute Defense? If it's a term you made up on the spot as the (TM) suggests you should be obligated to elaborate on it.

Benny #99: See comments on Baity #93

Pesco #101: So you're clearing him on meta? Really? <_< Also, you could at least EXPLAIN those reasons.


Actually opinions instead of responses to posts: Benny seems like he's just being a derp. The shenanigans about L-# are silly but are a null-tell newbie mistake. If anything I'd think it would slightly lean towards town since he's being really cautious. Don't think the wagon on him is necessary.

Zakeri is iffy to me. It doesn't feel like he's actually been adding much, and I don't see why switching votes a lot in the RVS is bad enough to justify his vote on me. They're just jokevotes and should not matter in the long run. Not sure how I was active lurking either, as far as I can tell it's better to explain why I'm not posting than just not posting at all (and risking modkill at the same time). Anyway, aside from self defense: I'm not too sure if I'd consider Zak to actually be scummy yet, but I'm certainly gonna be keeping an eye on him.

Out of everybody, though, Pesko seems the worst. Not only has he been consistently unhelpful, but his cases on Zak and Benny were incredibly minimal as well as over silly reasons. Would like him to elaborate on them asap. Also, saying "I have different reasons for suspecting this guy" but then hiding them from the town does not help at all. Doesn't seem trustworthy to me.

##Vote Pesco

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Hey I missed Serela's post.

"What Kefit said, plus [terrible reason that no one has ever heard of]."

Except no, people brought up that reason multiple times I'm p. sure. Also I like how you're clearing Zak based on somebody else clearing him based on meta. Also note that Excal didn't even play last game (and I doubt he'd want to read that trainwreck) so I'm not sure what you expect.

You are right about Zak egging others being a misrep, though. Unless I'm missing something

[Serela]

Except no, people brought up that reason multiple times I'm p. sure. Also I like how you're clearing Zak based on somebody else clearing him based on meta. Also note that Excal didn't even play last game (and I doubt he'd want to read that trainwreck) so I'm not sure what you expect.

But when they brought up that reason, weren't they all like "I've never heard of this and how the hell would it even work"? Maybe I should read those posts again.

And yeah, I know Excal didn't play last game nor did I think he had read it. Which is part of the reason I said "This isn't a bad reason". And I'm not really clearing Zakeri either, I just don't find him scummy enough to vote right now. Still suspicious about him.