Dwarf Fortress Mafia: Game Over - Town Win

[FinnKaenbyou]

I was originally planning to say that Neo's BP claim made him look a little better unless someone popped up to counter-claim, but now that Alice has flipped Doc (another protective role) I'm a little more skeptical. Anyway, I spent the night phase ISOing someone who'd be getting on my nerves yesterday.

How about we take a closer look at Sodium's play?

First non-RVS post. Parrots the Alice statement that Benny's just playing stupid and not scummy, parrots the callout on lurkers, votes Pesco for jumping on Excal and 'not trying to make a serious case on Zak'? I don't even understand this part of his accusation.

Here he reiterates that he didn't like the whole Zak vote as his main point, but again what does he mean? Besides that, this post once again regurgitates what's been seen from several other people.

Here he singles out Baity for doing what other people had been doing and pressing lurkers, with a point of 'THIS WAS YOUR FIRST SRS POST AND YOU WERE TRYING TO CONVINCE OTHER PEOPLE' which really doesn't hold imo, but nothing ends up coming of this other than a general 'I don't like this'. Restates his opinion on Pesco AGAIN, then tries to step in and answer the 'scum mentoring' point I had raised about Neo and Pesco. He continues to hold the Pesco vote for reasons that are barely out of RVS despite other cases emerging by this point.

Next we have one paragraph of defense, two paragraphs of setup theorising, a votecount request and insisting he's still on Pesco. All in all, nothing but fluff.

Then we have him dropping the Pesco vote and dumping it on a lurker (HW following him immediately afterward is also noted), as well as the pointless pointless POINTLESS speculation of 'hey gaiz, maybe all 3 of these wagons are Town!'.

But finally, after Kilga's 221 basically says that the Excal lynch is a bad idea, Sodium suddenly flips over to Neo after producing IIoA summarising maybe the first three paragraphs of Neo's Big Post.

Note also that after the flip of Zak as scum, Sodium's attacking of Pesco for attacking Zak is notably suspicious.

All in all little in terms of new content, lots in terms of attacking the people who are accusing Zak while staying neutral on the case himself, and overall nothing to convince me that he's Town.

In other news, I'm having trouble believing Pesco would deliberately lay down so much pressure on his buddy from the start of D1, so for now he's getting a tentative clear. Neo...I still don't like him, and that Bulletproof claim has just turned from being his saving grace into his ball and chain. For now, ##Vote: MSB for the sake of generating discussion.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

(HW following him immediately afterward is also noted),

MY NAME IS NOT SERELA

Agreeing that Sodium sounds suspicious, was planning to reread him today. Gotta finish up sokuan with Serela first though.

[WHMZakeri]

That's what I get for not getting my daily vitamin intake of INNOCENT SOULS.

[FinnKaenbyou]

The point I'm trying to make with Sodium's last few posts is that his jump onto Neo feels forced. He tries to jump onto Excal while saying 'I agree with the NS case, he's scummy', and only actually puts down a vote to go along with that statement after he gets called out on it.

Cut by HW proving that I can't read. :S Yeah, that doesn't help Neo at all.

[Kilgamayan]

Haven't had the time to look over the Day 1 trains, combination of busy busy and a few things that kinda drained emotion from me and made me not want to read the game over. Guess it was a blessing in disguise, given Zakeri's flip.

I will say, however, that I have dropped my suspicions of Serela for the time being. Kefit flipping town very strongly suggests to me that was a town/town Sudden Death, because the tie was at four votes apiece. I have a very hard time seeing scum letting one of their buddies hang out to dry and hit a tie with a townie when it only took four votes to reach that tie. So much risk of needlessly losing a buddy with the sheer number of non-Kefit non-Serela votes floating around that could have changed things for the worse out of the blue.

Obviously, this is by no means a clear of Serela, but he's now way down on my priority list.

I have some time now, so I'm going to give the trains a look and see what I can come up with.

[Benny1]

I'm planning on making a directory of posts like FAV did in WTC mafia, but unfortunately this won't happen until late because well, I won't be here all day tomorrow.

I honestly have no idea what to think about what's going on, because I had felt Zakeri wasn't very scummy and apparently that wasn't right!

[Sodium]

Rou: I attacked Pesco for not attacking Zak seriously. -_- Hell, you attacked Pesco for his Zak vote too.
I didn't vote Excal for lurking; I voted him because he dumped his vote on Kefit over two other people for no given reason. The fact that he then vanished, leaving said vote to deadline, was just added on.

Meh, Excal's voteswitch looks even worse now seeing as he removed his vote from Zakeri to join the KefitWagon. His initial Zak vote could've been a bus, seeing as it was still pretty early into Day 1, and he dropped it rather quickly. Also, outside of his vote on Zak, everything else he's done is defence or giving reasons to vote two people and proceeding not to vote them.

No longer interested in pursuing NeoSerela, because what Kilga said. FAV is pretty much ConfirmedTownie, Pesco early pressure on Zak makes him look better, although I still don't like how it didn't feel like he didn't really promote it at all. This

I had felt Zakeri wasn't very scummy and apparently that wasn't right!

accurately describes my thoughts regarding the Zak flip.

##Vote Excal

Gonna look over other people tomorrow.

[Kilgamayan]

Zakeri is iffy to me. It doesn't feel like he's actually been adding much, and I don't see why switching votes a lot in the RVS is bad enough to justify his vote on me. They're just jokevotes and should not matter in the long run. Not sure how I was active lurking either, as far as I can tell it's better to explain why I'm not posting than just not posting at all (and risking modkill at the same time). Anyway, aside from self defense: I'm not too sure if I'd consider Zak to actually be scummy yet, but I'm certainly gonna be keeping an eye on him.

Out of everybody, though, Pesko seems the worst. Not only has he been consistently unhelpful, but his cases on Zak and Benny were incredibly minimal as well as over silly reasons. Would like him to elaborate on them asap. Also, saying "I have different reasons for suspecting this guy" but then hiding them from the town does not help at all. Doesn't seem trustworthy to me.

##Vote Pesco

This is sticking out like a sore thumb. The approach to Zakeri is basically exactly what I described earlier when explaining what I'd expect from ScumBenny in regards to my early play: "Not too sure, but going to keep an eye on him". This is classic waffling to avoid forming an actual opinion, with extra faux emphasis tacked on with the "I'll be watching you!" line. huh what has nothing positive to say about Zakeri in his entire post, accusing him of parroting earlier in the post and now talking about he's not contributing and how his cases aren't great. So where's the behavior that makes him unsure about what he thinks of Zakeri? Surely Zakeri must have done something positive to make him falter. But no, huh what mentions no such thing. It seems very unlikely that huh what was fishing for a reason to not directly say he found Zakeri scummy, couldn't find one, and just decided to go with an "inconclusive" result with the aforementioned faux suspicion emphasis.

Later in the day, huh what is still suspicious of Zakeri, but Kefit is now the frontrunner on his list, with huh what have switched from Pesco to Kefit earlier in the day here (while making no mention of his Zakeri case, mind!). Zakeri has now gone from second on huh what's list behind Pesco while drawing an inconclusive conclusion on him despite thinking nothing but negative things about him, to having completely vanished during the switch from Pesco to Kefit, back up to second on huh what's list behind Kefit (Pesco having been moved down). This reads very, very much like actively avoiding finding Zakeri vote-worthy and basically just comes off as cheerleading the Zakeri train similar to Sodium's play in regards to Zengar on Day 1 of Communication Breakdance (where both were scum).

##Vote: huh what

Speaking of Benny, he makes a similar "I'm not sure what to think" assessment of Zakeri here. I don't get the "I can leave this off until another day" approach at all. If you think a case can be made today, make it! There's nothing to be lost and everything to be gained from pressuring suspicious people as soon as you have the opportunity. Don't know why TownBenny wouldn't press Zakeri further, but I can think of a few reasons why ScumBenny wouldn't have pressed Zakeri further.

Serela admittedly also takes a similar approach to Zakeri but I'm a little bit more inclined to give him a pass, at least for now. I seriously have a hard time seeing scum team leaving him so close to a possible tie with the way Pesco produced a case on him and I immediately endorsed it, especially given the alternative lynch was Kefit; I think they would have jumped at the chance to push him ahead and make sure he was taken out of the picture (oh hey, huh what, fancy meeting you on the Kefit train). Someone coming in last moment and tying things up (like Baity!) is such a needless risk to take.

---

Who do I like coming out of Day 1? Rat, Baity, FAV all look pretty neat, Rat for his general play and because I have a hard time seeing a Rat/Zakeri scumpair coming out with those bang-bang Excal votes in 181 and 182, Baity and FAV for their approaches to Zakeri. (There's a tiiiiiny bit of reservation on FAV but it's mostly gut and is not meaningful enough to pursue today when I feel there are much more suspicious people.)

Still ambivalent on Excal, though now that it's Day 2 and apparently his real life issues have been cleared up I'm going to reserve proper judgment of him for a while. Roukan bothers me greatly with the way he was pressing Zakeri all day and then jumped off right at the end onto someone of whom I currently have a townie opinion. Sodium is whatever; possibly scum, I spent most of Day 1 forgetting he was playing. Not a huge fan of Roukan's new case or Sodium's new case but they're not terrible I guess. No change in opinion on either of them as a result.

---

Cut by Benny: You claimed to find Zakeri suspicious here, in the last Day 1 post where you make meaningful mention of him. Why did you say this, then, if you are now saying you didn't feel Zakeri was very scummy? What were you suspicious of him being, then?

[Kilgamayan]

EBWOP:

(oh hey, huh what, fancy meeting you on the Kefit train)

I would like to semi-recant this given the context it is in, it was written in to the post as I was gathering my thoughts but not before I had finalized them. It's incongruous with my opinion on Serela, and was cast a good time before the end-of-day rush anyway.

My recanting this statement does not make me feel any worse about my huh what case, however.

[Serela]

2 NKs, and one is scum? Does that mean there's an SK running around? Oh right, could be a Vig.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's a One-Shot Vig. Seems that this setup might have plenty of One-Shot roles; Alice was One-Shot Doctor, I'm One-Shot BP, etc. Wondering what kind of power Moodlighter had, though.

I don't think Rou's reasoning that "Oh Alice is Doctor so I dunno if NS can really be BP" is all that great, because... well, they're only one-shot roles. It's not surprising if there's a few of them then, right? Has no experience with people's set-up styles

It's past midnight, so I'll start examining posts when I get up tommorow. Can't think that well right now.

[Benny1]

Kilga, I cannot think of the proper way to put this for the life of me, but though I was still suspicious of Zak (as in, more than the others who were not on that five person list) I was not convinced he was scum.  As for waiting for more material, in general, when I say that, I mean "I think I could see a case coming from this, but I cannot create a case now."

I am interested though, because of your post about huh what, it seems very much like his reasoning is parroted reasoning of mine, which seems a little odd.  That is probably worth me looking into more, because his other voting habits certainly don't resemble mine, but perhaps he has just been parroting others this entire time?

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

@ Kilga: I didn't say I thought Zakeri was scummy because I didn't think he was very scummy, esp compared to Pesco. His vote and lack of contribution struck me as rather odd (especially when he randomly tacked on active lurking) so I intended to pay more attention to him for that. I don't see how Zak had done anything worth a vote, though (it wasn't really "I had no conclusion" as much as "Hmm something's kinda off but I don't think he's done anything too scummy). Regarding my middle post - I actually was starting to disregard Zakeri's posts for just being ED1 at that point in favor of Pesco and Kefit until Zak made his jump onto the Excal wagon, which was what pushed him up my list (I thought I said that in the post? Meh)

You linked to my profile instead of a post at one point. :x

Currently trying to ISO Sodium. Post might not be up until tomorrow, though.

I am interested though, because of your post about huh what, it seems very much like his reasoning is parroted reasoning of mine, which seems a little odd.  That is probably worth me looking into more, because his other voting habits certainly don't resemble mine, but perhaps he has just been parroting others this entire time?

lol what? Elaborate+give examples please

[Kilgamayan]

Whoops.

but Kefit is now the frontrunner on his list, with huh what have switched from Pesco to Kefit earlier in the day here (while making no mention of his Zakeri case, mind!).

That link is the fucked-up one. This is the real link.

Benny: I can't begrudge anyone of not being convinced someone is scum on Day 1, but I still do not understand why you would not push suspicions further. If you had, maybe Zakeri would have fouled up in a way that made you change your mind and start thinking he was scum.

huh what: If you didn't think he was very scummy, why was he second on your suspicions list twice?

I'm not sure I understand the prevailing sentiment from both of you that you can find someone suspicious without thinking them scummy (unless you think they're a third party I guess but neither of you cited that). If you didn't think they were scummy, what were suspicious of? And why were you both waiting for more evidence to think Zakeri was scummy when you both found him suspicious and it was only Day 1? Surely any suspicion is worth pursuing Day 1, even if it's not accompanied by a vote. (Second place is definitely worth pursuing, in fact!)

I have to say, the general feeling I'm getting from both of you is that you were stating suspicions for the sake of having suspicions on the table and not for the sake of hunting scum, and I'm not liking that very much.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

huh what: If you didn't think he was very scummy, why was he second on your suspicions list twice?

Where does this twice come from? I only remember having a suspicions list once, and I already explained that he looked pretty bad (ie, scummy) to me when I posted that list because of his jump on Excal. If you mean in my first wall, then uh, he wasn't exactly "second", but nobody else had done anything that made me raise an eyebrow at that point (aside from what I already covered above the lower half of my post).

The reason I didn't believe he was actually scummy when I first pointed him out is because what made me get bad vibes from him (his really weird vote on me based on RVS) also seemed a lot like something derptown could do. By the time I made my second post a lot of new cases had been springing up and they all seemed to have more promise behind them, so I dropped the Zak suspicion (until he started looking bad again, that is) on the grounds that it was based on a vote he made early D1 and could have easily been derpy town instead.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Oh hey, didn't think I'd actually get this done before sleepan.

Regarding Serela: I don't see why the existence of a doctor with only one shot makes a one shot bulletproof that unlikely. I am, however, curious why he chose to claim bulletproof, since that essentially makes his ability useless.

After reviewing his posts, Sodium is beginning to look much worse to me than before. Let's take a look.

#114:
A paragraph of sentances about his opinions (some of which are parrots) without actually adding anything new! Pointless prods without backing added in to make the post look a bit longer! Complaining about Baity even though Rou did the exact same thing! Beyond his response to Pesco (which is minimal), this post contributes nothing at all.

#155:

Behold, Fluffy the Special Edition Self-Parrot! "Already said this pretty much, but I didn't like how you handled your Zak case because you didn't do anything to support it, and then threw it away quickly to vote Benny who just got a bandwagon." is a repeat of just about everything he has already said about Pesco. He even admits that he's just repeating himself. Apparently he was trying to clarify himself, but he realized it came off as repetitive, so there was no reason for him not to alter it. Filler.

He also elaborates on his earlier complaint about Baity by saying it was Baity's first serious post and that Baity was encouraging others to vote lurkers... which he didn't actually do, unless I'm half-blind or something. Apparently this alone makes Baity much worse than Rou, since he's third on Sodium's Scummy List (along with Excal, who he hadn't even said anything about at this point beyond "ooh, Excal case is pretty cool!" in a previous post, which was kinda cheerleading).

#179:
Pointless theories, hooray! "OH NO 3 POSSIBLE LYNCH TARGETS" is speculation which would lead town astray if it turned into a discussion because it won't actually help find scum at all. "Waiting for Baity's reread" implies he's still clinging onto Baity for some reason even though his reasons for Baity hate were based entirely on an ED1 lurker vote which Rou had done as well. Why?

#213:
After ignoring now-flipped scum (Zak) the whole day, his only comment on the case against said now-flipped scum is "meh I don't like his case, or the rival case. But the rival case is okay I guess". Not only does he pick the townie lynch he doesn't like over the scum lynch he doesn't like, but he doesn't even explain his reasoning for disliking either! Wow!! It feels to me like he could possibly attempting to avoid having a stance on Zak as much as possible as to not draw ties to a scum wagon he doesn't want to jump on.

He jumps on the Excal wagon after cheerleading the wagon on Serela (who had done everything the guy Sodium was previously voting had done and more! Sodium, why did you prefer Excal over him at that point?), but adds nothing new about Excal at the same time. It's just "I still don't like him for my previous reasons, also he's lurking", the latter of which had already been pointed out. Comes off as an attempt to escape the Pesco wagon now that Pesco began to look a lot better after posting a case on Serela, which Sodium was cheerleading.

"Guys, the main reason I was actually concerned about the whole 3 wagon thing was because I had some bizarre feeling that all of them were town. =V" <-- Apparently not!


So yeah, I don't like Sodium at all. He mainly posted fluff over content during the first half of D1 then clinged onto Pesco and Baity for few reasons until he got the chance to jump onto Excal, and everything he posted in between that and his jump was not actual scumhunting. The worst part, however, is how he almost completely refuses to comment on Zak beyond "I don't agree", even when asked for an opinion. It's as if he wanted to distance himself from a scumwagon as much as possible before his death so it could not be held against him, instead choosing to consistently go after the worst-looking target on it (Pesco) for jumping on.

##Vote Mario Superstar Baseball

[Pesco]

My cat is getting a headache thinking about all the people we should vig. Post when I'm on a PC.

[Carthrat]

Zak train yesterday is interesting because it got very big very fast, and then everyone just ran away to other places.

Serela dived off Zak to vote Excal for the way he voted Zak, which does not seem to fit in with the usual scum paradigm of 'do not blatantly dive to protect your buddies'. I too am presently inclined to give Serela slack for the way the end of the day turned out, if Serela was indeed scum they had plenty of opportunities to engineer a Kefit lynch themselves rather than wait for him to spaz out and /wrists, not to mention the leadup to the lynch should've let them do... just about anything to avoid that fate.

Roukan... stuck on Zak pretty much all day and only went to NS when it looked like there would not be another option. I have certain other issues with Rou regarding NS, don't think his lack of self-hammer matters at all, don't care about his roleclaim at all when determining scuminess, but nothing I want to lynch him today for.

Pesco barely rates a mention since I do believe his case on Zak was mostly RSV crap.

Huhwhat did his switch by hitting Pesco. Pesco's pretty hittable in general, so sure, but I am reading his later case on Kefit. 'twas done for some pretty tepid reasons (rescinding a point is not generally scummy by itself, as I believe I mentioned. I also think the original case lost water on inspection, and that most of Kefit's play was that of a defensive townie, so I don't much like people going over the original points again either.) The 'I r suspicious of yo!' on Zak is as, well, suspicious as has been noted.

Excal ran away from Zak to vote Kefit just like that, then lurked a lot. His interactions with Zak are quite strange; so Zak parroted Excal's case, prompting Excal to turn around and vote Zak on the spot. I dislike the way he then went on to just outright drop the Zak case without really covering it again at all in order to make the leap to Kefit for no real voiced reason. I cannot ignore his hardcore lurking, which I feel speaks for itself and I'm disinclined to give him more room to do it on top of a lackluster d1 performance that (quite early in the day!) ended with him ditching scum to lynch town. ##Vote: Excal

<->

When playing mafia, people need to stop posting everywhere else so that reading their post trails in history is easier. THE FIGHT IS ALL

[FinnKaenbyou]

Closer look later, but for now I'll note that Kilga's comment on me in 277 rubs me the wrong way. Because I moved from the Zakeri train when it was late in the day, losing popularity, and had been written off as an 'easy target' by most of the players, it immediately becomes invalid?

[FinnKaenbyou]

EBWOP: Also holding me responsible for, uh, voting to the opposing wagon of a now flipped Townie. The problem with these accusations is that it feels like he's going to have something to accuse me of whatever I do - if I'd stuck to Zak, I was keeping my nose out of a potential Town/Town wagon and he could easily call that scummy. If I HAD moved to Kefit, then obviously he'd say I had his blood on my hands.

Why does FAV leaving her vote uselessly on Zak at the end of the day clear her, while me moving my vote somewhere where it might DO SOMETHING when it was clear the Zak lynch wasn't happening does nothing?

[Carthrat]

I felt inspired to have a quick look at FAV, I'm not really happy that she managed to waffle about Kefit/Kilga for a lot of posts but couldn't make a decision. It is pretty bad, scum might not care if two townies are being lynched but townies should prefer to make their voices heard even if they're not entirely sure, since to do otherwise is to concede initiative to the other team. Scum KNOW when this doesn't matter, town doesn't, sooo I seriously question why FaV would willingly leave it be if she knows it's going to a tiebreaker?

[FinnKaenbyou]

OK, general paranoia and a disliking of how Kilga's treating the day have convinced me to work an ISO on him. Here goes.

Of course, we have his opening posts where he's basically running around like a hyperactive 5-year-old reading straight out of the MafiaScum wiki. There's only one thing that this could possibly be out to accomplish if it's not just plain flavour, and that's to incite the 'silly FAV, claiming ED1 will matter in rereads!' dispute. Vague memories of Kilga vs. UK in Bamboo Forest are returning to me.

When he gets serious, he disregards the Zak case entirely and to an extent he misreps it. He writes off the jump onto Benny as a brain fart but doesn't bother to so much as mention the whole point about him regurgitating cases. The case on Kefit is still fairly decent, admittedly, but the manner in which he writes off the Zak case makes me uncertain.

Next he comes to Zakeri's rescue by calling out Baity for misrep here. While, again, it's a semi-decent point, Kilga once again doesn't actually talk about the rest of the Zak case - which by now also has Zak's added 'vote HW for RVS stuff' case. That's twice he's taken one semi-decent point and held firmly to it without giving the full case the time of day.

Then things start to get messy with his long discussion with, uh, himself, about FAV. Firstly I'll note that, once again, he's attacking someone who's on Zakeri's case, on a point he later drops, but then he makes another post explaining exactly how and why he made this screwup. How is this second post even remotely necessary other than to cover his own ass?

Then he goes back to FAV for not going into detail about why she doesn't like the Kefit case. This is despite him doing more or less exactly the same in terms of the Zakeri case - mmm, delicious hypocrisy.

Fluff post, misses the point that scum can make good cases as well. The read I'm getting from this post is 'It doesn't matter what you think of me if you can't argue with my case!'

In the end, my main problem with Kilga is that he more or less ignored the Zak wagon entirely. He didn't give reasoning for discarding any of the points against him other than 'maybe he was just being stupid when he cheerleaded the Benny wagon!' Then there was the dispute with FAV which really didn't go anywhere, and his insistence on explaining his mistakes and covering his tracks which I've never seen before from Town!Kilga. FAV and Kilga conveniently having directly opposite opinions of Zakeri also isn't helping, he seems to go out of his way to get into an argument with her, and as I said, we've seen Kilga pull this sort of thing in Bamboo Forest with UK. Undecided on whether it's worth moving my vote over to him yet, but I'm definitely thinking it over.

Sodium! I owe you some responses.

Rou: I attacked Pesco for not attacking Zak seriously. -_- Hell, you attacked Pesco for his Zak vote too.

Yes, except I retracted that vote when I realised that Pesco's vote on Zak was the first 'serious' case in ED1. You held it against him pretty much all day until the time came to jump onto Excal.

I didn't vote Excal for lurking; I voted him because he dumped his vote on Kefit over two other people for no given reason. The fact that he then vanished, leaving said vote to deadline, was just added on.

Conceded, but in your voteswitch post you certainly made a big deal of his inactivity.

(On that note, though, Excal really DOES need to post soon.)

[Pesco]

My cat has been sharpening her claws all night. Someone gonna get mauled.

Rou that entire post just stopped being worth reading when I saw your conspiracy theory about RVS. Rewrite that thing and leave out the stupid shit. Seriously.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Rou that entire post just stopped being worth reading when I saw your conspiracy theory about RVS. Rewrite that thing and leave out the stupid shit. Seriously.

This from the originator of FPMH?

And it's easy just to, y'know, not read that point and read the rest. The general point about how he ignores the Zak wagon entirely still stands, and the RVS point is weak on its own but given that the dispute between Kilga and FAV ends up becoming very serious later on I think it's worth bringing up.

[FallenAngelVI]

This is something for postgame, but Rou hit the nail on the head with his second-last paragraph in #139.

Re-read Kilga. With Alice the peacemaker in #226 flipping town (though his facts were off; see #159) I'm marginally more inclined to consider Kilga's misrep as unintentional. Still, attacking me with bad reasoning for the way I was attacking Zak feels like an attempt to reduce the pressure on him (? la scum-Kiro in WTC), and if you're making a case on someone that you'd be okay with lynching them for, shouldn't you at least check the facts? Alice even posted the WTC link after a recent game. The other stuff was and still is garbage. Kefit flipping town counts against him a bit though I don't consider the case he pushed on him to be inherently scummy.

Kilga, you only commented on Zak twice throughout Day 1, once in #125 to say the case on Zak was uninteresting, calling his actions a null tell, and then in #142 to name Zak as one of 3 lynches you "[didn't] like" without expanding on this or commenting on his other actions. Explain your views during Day 1 on Zak/the Zak case. ##Vote: Kilga

Looked over Neo. Lots of waffling/fluff combined with a general lack of vote justification/unwillingness to vote supposedly 'scummy' players. I can vaguely understand the dropped suspicions on him because of the end of Day 1, but (and no offense to Neo) if he were scum I don't really see his buddies taking much in the way of risks to save him when he likely wouldn't make it to endgame.

Actually, Neo's #279, concern for his own survival, lack of vote justification/content deficiency, indecisiveness, unwillingness to follow through on his 'suspicions', 1-shot BP claim (both in itself and the fact he did it post-hammer), Zak's death last night and what I think is a day-vig claim from Pesc4u in #285 makes me think Neo could be an SK. If Pesco is town this is much more likely, since I don't see town having a day-vig and night-vig.

No interest in pursuing Rou or Baity today. Will look at other people later but my activity is going to take a definite knock from hereon out, though I'm okay to keep playing.

@ Rou in #288: You're claiming my vote on Zak as deadline approached was useless when it... wasn't. If just one person had moved from Kefit to Zak before Baity's 15-seconds-before-deadline switch then he would've been a Sudden Death candidate. I know I called it useless in #238, but that's because it was SD + Zak couldn't be lynched at that point.

@Carth: Not entirely sure what you're saying there. If you're saying I didn't make a decision between Kefit and Kilga, I said in #195 "Zak > Kilga but unlikely to happen > Pesco > Kefit" and in #225 "Zak > Kilga > Kefit > Pesco" (strikeout was referencing that he was never going to be lynched). If you're saying I left my vote somewhere useless at deadline, see comments to Rou above. If you're accusing me of not saying enough around deadline, I'd already posted twice that evening, it was past midnight and I was watching the good ol' once-in-every-5-years UK general election.

[FinnKaenbyou]

@ Rou in #288: You're claiming my vote on Zak as deadline approached was useless when it... wasn't. If just one person had moved from Kefit to Zak before Baity's 15-seconds-before-deadline switch then he would've been a Sudden Death candidate. I know I called it useless in #238, but that's because it was SD + Zak couldn't be lynched at that point.

By this point, pretty much no-one was even discussing Zakeri anymore. The only people actually bothering to refer to his case were the people who had already voted him, and even then Pesco jumped away to vote for Neo instead. The opportunity was there theoretically, but it was clear that no-one was intending to make that jump.

I'm, uh, really not sure where this 'Neo is SK' theory is coming from. Most of the reasons you give to suspect him would still make sense if Neo is scum - a point you make yourself - so why is he distinctly third-party?

[Carthrat]

Echoing the 'why' on the SK theory.

FAV: I was more thinking that since you'd thought plenty about Kefit (and Kilga, but mainly Kefit since he was on the block yesterday) why you couldn't make a decision on the spot based on that. It is never good to leave Sudden Death up to a stranger if you can seize the initiative unless you are scum and you know it's a town/town train.

[Kilgamayan]

My stance on the Zakeri case was exactly how I said it was. I saw people mentioning "You needed Kefit to poke you into voting!" and thought "well that's a dumb reason to vote for someone" because I believe forgetting to vote is not a scumtell, and obviously I'm going to be less inclined to buy into someone's scumminess if I don't like the cases being put forward on them. When Post 162 rolled along and Zakeri came back with people pressing him for his case on huh what, he was promising rereads and a new case, so what was the point of pressuring him about his earlier case then? He had his own word out there that new content was coming, me yelling at him for it wasn't going to expedite the process; in fact, it was very likely to distract him by making him get mad at me, and that doesn't help anyone. (Look at how he reacted to Roukan.)

In light of this, I can hear the question regarding my poke at Sodium at the end of the day yesterday coming. I went out of my way to make sure Sodium kept to his word because there was so little time left in the day; I didn't trust that Sodium wouldn't simply vanish for the rest of the day and possibly make up an excuse later for why he didn't follow through. Zakeri had loads of time when his promise of a new case was laid down, so I didn't think it worth egging him on.

Roukan: it was not clear at all that the Zakeri lynch wasn't happening, he was still at 3 votes to Kefit's 4 when you changed, and no, I would not have thought you explicitly scummy for sticking to him after seeing his flip (in fact, I would probably feel pretty strongly that you're town for keeping a flipped scum so close to a flipped town). You are correct about FAV, though, and that is the reason I still have vague gut rumblings about her.

(Cut by Rat, who does a great job of gut-to-logic translation.)

I must disagree with the Bamboo Forest parallel, in that game UK and I went out of our way to get into a major slapfight that basically dominated the day, whereas I feel whatever arguments FAV and I have had have been in the background. If my approach to FAV has seemed odd it's because I'm annoyed that she's tried to spin everything I've done as scummy (not to mention the whole MS thing) so I'm doing my best to ignore what I feel is irrelevant while maintaining a sense of smug satisfaction that I know she's wrong. (I'm a very spiteful person, I know.) I would go further into this but I'm on pretty thin Mafia ice as it is and I would rather not lose playing privileges if I can avoid it.

huh what: Your presentation style in #117 made me think you were second-most suspicious of Zakeri, since you didn't mention anyone except Zakeri, Benny and Pesco and made it clear you didn't think Benny scummy. Given you put a vote on Pesco, voiced suspicion of Zakeri (or at least listed several things wrong with what he was doing) and did not voice suspicion of anyone else, it suggested to me that you felt Zakeri was the second-most suspicious at the time (I can't think of why you didn't mention anyone else if there was someone less suspicious than Pesco but more suspicious of Zakeri). It is true that you did not make a list, but that is still how the overall feel of your post comes off.

[Serela]

I'm really starting to wonder about FAV. Gonna do an ISO on her now, but there's one thing that jumped out at me when I reread the post she just made;

No interest in pursuing Rou or Baity today. Will look at other people later but my activity is going to take a definite knock from hereon out, though I'm okay to keep playing.

So, are you trying to lurking look less bad by telling everyone before you do it? I know that had worked with K4U (to an extent) last game, claiming she had RL stuff going on and would post a lot less.

[Serela]

FAV ISO wheee. FIRST POST OBV. BEING ELITIST SO SCUMMY DO YOU NOT AGREE?!...yeahnomovingon :derp:

"GOGO GADGET KILGAWAGON!" Okay I giggled, and this was still jokevote phase, but I think it's worth noting that FAV seems to have been going after Kilga since the very start of D1. Trying to lynch our Kilgajesus? Of course, he COULD be scum, and FAV is just trying to make us see it; but still.

It gets a little suspicious on #57 where FAV seems to actually be seriously going after Kilga... for jokevote stuff... and telling other people they should be voting him. It could be FAV messing around, but it doesn't really look like it. Then FAV gets attacked by a wordfilter and I keep giggling

Post #96. Okay, this is where actual logic starts coming in. I go back and check the points on Kilga; I agree with them. They were still from ED1 so they don't really make a case at our present point in the game, but back then it looks solid, so okay.
Then, FAV goes after... *gasp*, our scumconfirmed Zakeri! Let's see how long this vote stays.

140. Stays on Zak, cracks on Kilga a little more (Although less severely), makes points and clears Excal, saying his ED1 tactics are "something I now heartily endorse myself". If FAV or Excal flips scum this makes the other more suspicious, otherwise it's pretty ignorable. Something to touch on later if one of them does indeed flip scum.

If I don't see posts by Alice, Neo, Baity and huh what by then I'm going to start breaking out the day-vigs.

Hmm. I thought this might be worth pointing out because of recent developments, although it's not much. Moving on.

159. At this point I'm getting too lazy to want to comment on everything. Ugh, lets skip to where one starts "Awful case". This made me go and review Kilga's post in question.

Actually I'm just now noticing that FAV mentions that ED1 can be useful by citing a previous instance where she used joke vote patterns against someone - and then blasts Zakeri for using joke vote patterns against someone. Well! Willing to vote FAV today if necessary to avoid a lynch I don't like (Benny if that train resurfaces, Zakeri, maybe Pesco but I'm still undecided there), suspicions are a combination of hypocrisy, cheerleading the Kefit wagon while clinging to a hypocritical vote, lame excuses for bad/scummy play (seriously, appeal to MS of all places?) and the journalistic touch. Still happy with my Kefit vote, though.

Okay.
I don't see FAV's "cheerleading Kefit wagon while clinging to hypocritical vote", Kilga. Please show me where FAV does it, because I'm genuine interested and don't seem able to locate it :derp:. Also, you say you don't want to lynch Zakeri; I feel like keeping that in mind, although it's so far really the only thing I have against you and it's nothing much at all. Then again, I'm not reading most of your posts right now anyway, and concentrating on FAV; it's an ISO, of course.

195. I seriously can't concentrate on this very well anymore. Sometimes I wish I wasn't ADD for a just a few minutes.

Okay, FAV keeps going on Kilga; nothing new there. Asks people why they think Kilga is really town. A good question.

Kefit wagon "is sending me in circles". I had largely the same opinion on it, personally. FAV ends this Kefit paragraph with "On the other hand, it was started by Kilga. Hmm." Dude, are you trying to make Kilga the freaking anti-christ or something? This is a decent reason though since Kefit flipped town, assuming Kilga DID start the wagon. I can't remember and I REALLY, REALLY do not feel like going back and reading all those pages again.

FAV states she likes Rou, dislikes Pesco, and isn't happy with Excal much. This information doesn't tell much without flips on these people, I suppose.

OH MY GOD IT'S ANOTHER ONE *faints*. Okay. Let's go. 225. It's all about Kefit, here, with a tiny amount of death-to-Kilga thrown in for good measure. End of the post brings up that FAV is still on Zak. Wait, really? Been on Zak this whole time? This does give FAV some points. Oh, but wait; Zak only has 2 votes, and has mostly been dropped already. So staying on Zak is safe, he doesn't look to be getting lynched. Hmm.

Okay, we've finally reached FAV's D2 post. The problems I have with this one are the lurkclaim and the "Neo is so scummy," Mmkay.  "I bet he's an SK!" wait huh? Where in the world did that come from?

Oh wow, I wasn't ninjaed? Cool. Preview shows I messed up some code, *fixes and posts*. Take this analyze however you will.

[Carthrat]

So, NS. What exactly are you trying to prove with that post? Is there some point you want to make?