Dwarf Fortress Mafia: Game Over - Town Win

[Serela]

First, I'll address this post. Sorry, I wasn't intending to make my post look like I was blaming you for that. I should have made it more clear, like I did slightly here. The meta reference was more for people who HAVE played with Zakeri, and I wasn't using it as a reason against you; just to show that Zakeri's actions are pretty much what he always does, and more of a nulltell then a scumtell. Not that I don't think Zak's suspicious, because I certainly still do.

Neo: Would you say your vote on Excal is because he hasn't been scumhunting?

Oh, I've got a question! Lets see here...

My vote on Excal wasn't for him not scumhunting, but more of that he was placing votes on people using crappy-looking cases (Like Scum doing fake scumhunting, badly), one even consisting mostly of  "What Kefit said". Excal's posts from after I went to bed, though, have satisfied me... for now, at least. ##Unvote. Still gonna keep an eye on him.

(Ninja'd by said contribution, and I can't say I like his question to Neo - he's leading him on and almost answering the question for him. Scum mentoring?)

Alice pretty much answered this; unless scum can't daytalk, Pesco doing such a thing as scum mentoring would be pretty "what". Even after considering that it's Pesco we're talking about. I figure it's more of him questioning me about my vote simply to press more information out of me, and clarify my views.

Okay, now to think/reread on who to vote next. I think I'll concentrate on Rou and Kefit first, and see where I get from there; post coming soon~

[Serela]

First, I'll address this post.

Let me fix that. "First, I'll make a hyperlink and forget to copypaste the link into it." The post I meant to link to was this one.

[WHMZakeri]

First of all, apologies to huh what. My brain just sort of shut down by that point yesterday, so I stopped caring if you had a legitimate excuse or not. I've calmed down though. Also, yeah, Day one strong case. Huh what's :wikipedia: makes me :V though.

Holy shit. I especially like how everyone who posted on page 5 has at least one single post that covers my entire browser in itself. With the exception of Alice, who ended up double posting to do that same thing, and huh what who's wall of text ended up on page 4 instead. I know this is probably FAV's last game and our last chance to Great Wall of Text her in revenge, but honestly guys.

I'll just let this out now, and post something useful three hours from now when I finish reading everything. QQ Seriously, FoS Everyone for obstructing Game rereads.

[Benny1]

At this point I can't place whether or not I think Pesco's play is just anti-town or if it is legitimately scummy...

I need to start making a directory of every post so I can figure out what the heck is going on rofl.  So much going on for day 1...

[Serela]

Bleh. [/insert me parroting Zakeri on all the WoT stuff] Since when I read through AGAIN, I suddenly realize "holy fuck man all this text".

I don't know how go about placing my next vote, and I'm back at the "HOW DO LYNCH SCUM" I was at last game. On the upside, it's still just D1 and I've got suspicions at this point, which is a lot less bad then I was at last game.

I'm gonna make a nice neat organized list here. People listed in no particular order, and may or may not have reasoning to them; this is just my feelings without required logic inserted. Which also means it's not set in stone, and is subject to change at my whim, of course.

Suspicious of...
_{Pesco
Zakeri
Excal}
Thinkin Townie...
_{Kilgamayan
Benny1
Roukanken}

"Idunno" section, which means I've got pretty much no thought process about them yet.
_{huh what
Carthrat
FAV
MSB}

And on the fence about Kefit. I'll see where that goes as time rolls around.

Don't want to vote Zakeri at the moment. Not really thinking Excal is worth voting for at this point. Pesco... I've got no idea how I'm really supposed to react to. And then it feels like MSB hasn't posted in a long time, but that might just be the WoTs getting to me.

God dammit, I really don't like throwing a vote on someone I'm not feeling to be pretty scummy, purely for the sake of using my vote. So I'm going to keep thinking about this, and pay close attention to posts in the next 4 hours; since FINALLY, I've got a good bit of the day to be playing Mafia.

[Sodium]

Back from school. Also, Walls, FFFF, etc.
---
Baity: Didn't like how your lurker voting because it was waaay too early in Day 1 to actually vote people for lurking, but more so than some others because it was your first srs post. Also, said post encouraged others to vote lurkers too, which is once again way too early for that.

Pesco: Already said this pretty much, but I didn't like how you handled your Zak case because you didn't do anything to support it, and then threw it away quickly to vote Benny who just got a bandwagon.

Kefit: What cheerleading? Also, sorry not for making walls.

Meh, I guess Excal's explanation for his Benny vote is good enough. Don't like how he proceeded to just vote Kefit after saying how he didn't like Rou or Pesco. Why do you like Kilga and Rat's Kefit case more than what you said about Pesco and Rou? They made a good case, but you just came out of left field with that vote.

I think Rou may have meant that Pesco purposely asked an easy to answer question to Neo. Which is still rather stupid. =V

I think Pesco is a more pressing concern than the other cases. Next to Pesco would be Excal, and Baity.

NeoSerela: That's because I haven't actually. Also, Why are you suspicious of ha-wait, read your chart wrong. =V

[Serp]

Y'know, every time I hear this accusation, I always think that it's basically pathologically dumb because Scum could just--wait, Serp, are Scum allowed daytalk? It actually does not say in the rules. Or is this information that is not public, for once?

Indeed, whether scum can daytalk or not is not known to the town.

[Kilgamayan]

The relevant votes in that game actually weren't in the jokevote phase, they were actually somewhat late into D1 and it was mostly an Unvote without a Revote slapped onto someone else.

If FAV meant this I felt she would have said it. Note that, when FAV says "using ED1 can be a good thing!", it is in response to me telling her to lay off of it today, and she makes no effort to say "later in the game". With no exception made for game time and her previous pokes at me for my ED1 posting, I conclude that she thinks ED1 is usable at any time and therefore her Zakeri vote is hypocritical.

You've made your stance on the Zakeri wagon and I...disagree, but what's your stance on the Pesco wagon? I'm not seeing how you can justify not lynching him.

I'm voting Kefit over Pesco for largely the same reasons you're voting Pesco over Zakeri.

[Kilgamayan]

EBWOP: I'm also voting Kefit over Pesco because Pesco's transgressions came earlier in the day, and on Day 1 I'm willing to cut that a little bit of slack.

[FallenAngelVI]

Too sleepy now to work. But not to post!

Actually I'm just now noticing that FAV mentions that ED1 can be useful by citing a previous instance where she used joke vote patterns against someone - and then blasts Zakeri for using joke vote patterns against someone.

Misrep! See pages 1/2 here. The stuff I was referring to was Kiro's serious #23, Rou's serious response to him and backtracking on his serious opinion on the RVS phase in #24, and Affinity's serious vote on Rou in #34. Also, the endgame decision I mentioned was Day 5 and ROU AND KIRO HAD FLIPPED SCUM! In contrast, the stuff Zak is using is #28 and #31 of this topic with no flips. Go and read those posts now. Go on. That's the main basis for his case on huh what.

FAV: You'll have to pardon me for laughing at the idea of "well MS does things this way so it isn't a scumtell". Rather than get into the "merits" of MS play I'll just say that I have never seen AtE from someone I held in high regard when they were town.

Over at MS, they play Mafia(TM), a game in which players are divided up into town and scum! A scumtell is something that scum are (adjusting for numbers) decidedly more likely to do than town. After reading through 000s of MS games and some of their MD topics, I agree that AtE is done by town and scum in about the same proportions as there are of each faction in an average game. And after flicking through some of the recent games I missed here, I'm on the verge of saying that a comparably experienced MS town nowadays is generally as competent if not moreso than MoTK town! (I love you guys, but seriously, 7 town losses in a row? That assassin game doesn't count) So as far as I'm concerned, AtE is a null tell both there and here, and I don't see how it's scummy in the slightest to think this.

Also, Carth used AtE as town in WTC, a game which you modded, and I know you hold him in high regard all joking aside. LAL etc.

Also please journalize less. There is some meaningful content in your post, yes, but there is also a noticeable amount of event regurgitation, which serves no purpose other than to pad out post length.

What? If you're referring to the occasional line like "Baity finally shows up in #93 and then FOS?s Rou for being weird while ignoring other weirdness", it links into whatever question I want to ask/point I want to make. Why is it scummy? Heck, how is it different in the ways you mentioned from just using quotes?

Sooo...

suspicions are a combination of hypocrisy, cheerleading the Kefit wagon while clinging to a hypocritical awesome vote, lame excuses for bad/scummy play (seriously, appeal to MS of all places?) and the journalistic touch [??]

Awful case, and the fact that you're willing to lynch me over Zakeri on the above grounds boggles my sleep-deprived mind and makes me more inclined to vote you. Will zzz on this and consider its implications for my views on a Kefit lynch, but my gut likes it less. I'll re-read tomorrow, giving Rou/Pesco in particular some overdue love and attention.

Upon further thought/contemplation I think that Kefit is worse than Zakeri. Not sure if he's still worse than Pesco, though. Hm. Hmm. Vote still stands, for now.

Alice! Why has your opinion of Kefit decreased and/or your opinion of Zakeri increased? I'm still not entirely happy with your meta is unreliable except that it's reliable enough to justify holding off on Zak, but I think you're saying in #143 that Pesco is worse irrespective of meta, which makes it sort of less/not bad.

Zak has posted! And there's nothing there! See you in the morning.

[Serp]

VOTE COUNT  -  You'll Get Them Twice Daily and Be Grateful Edition

Pesco (4): MSB, Alice, Roukanken, huh what, Benny1, huh what
Kefit (4): Roukanken, FAV, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Excal, Pesco
Zakeri (3): FAV, NeoSerela, huh what, Pesco, Excal, Roukanken, Baity
Roukanken (1):  MSB, Kefit
huh what (1): Baity, Benny1, Zakeri
Benny1 (0): Kefit, Excal, Zakeri, Roukanken, Pesco
Excal (0): Carthrat, NeoSerela
Carthrat (0): Baity, Excal, Kilgamayan, Roukanken
Kilgamayan (0): Carthrat, FAV, Benny1
NeoSerela (0): Benny1
FAV (0): Kefit, Pesco, Kilgamayan
MSB (0): huh what

Not Voting (1):  NeoSerela

Eight votes are required to lynch.  You have about 24 hours left in the day.

[LHCling]

asdf why are there so many posts. Rereading, catching up, all that and more.

[WHMZakeri]

Kilgamayan pretty much covered almost everything that needed to be said about the case on me.

@Baity and FAV: I know my case on huh what is bad, but all cases based on RVS are bad. I just wanted to open up some more cases by that point rather than just continuing to bandwagon jump.

The new enlightened me believes that voting/starting wagons on Day 1 for reactions isn?t scummy in the slightest, and in fact it?s something I now heartily endorse myself.

Combine this with above paragraph.

the end of Rou's 139 caught me off guard. I actually had to look back at my and Excal's posts voting for Benny. (75 and 70, respectively) And it does look like we actually said the same thing. I'm still not certain how I managed that since I don't even remember reading Excal's 70 when I made my 75. I'm guessing it was because I associated his lack of avatar with a lack of identity and confused the comment he made with something I thought up myself.

@ Pesco 146: At the time I posted 104, I was getting pretty fed up with the parroting charges against me that I didn't fully understand because it wasn't explained to me until Rou's 139. At first, I thought people were accusing me of parroting Kefit's original case.

Finally caught up, at post 161 now. And it only took me two hours. I'm better than I thought!
Next post will be done after rereads and ISOs. I'll progressively start becoming useful from then on.

[WHMZakeri]

Edit: Nevermind, I fail at counting time.
I blame Sakuya.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Zak, you're missing the point. This isn't the RVS anymore. Your vote is still on HW.

Also, good job not defending yourself at all and simply offering 'what Kilga said'.

And your response to copying Excal's statement to the letter is...'I must have forgotten he existed because I don't remember reading his post'?
Read your #75 again.

Especially since it was prompted by Excal and I

So you remembered his one line post here...and conveniently didn't see the much larger post here with his case on Benny?

Unless this post Zak is promising is the greatest piece of writing to ever grace the game of Mafia, I'm sold.

[WHMZakeri]

I only found that post from Excal because I remember Kilga saying in 63 that Excal had asked him a question.

Also, hold your horses. I'm still in the middle of rereading the game, and the main reason why I haven't changed my vote yet is because I wouldn't have anywhere to put it until after I reread. I'm Certain if I had unvoted without revoting, you'd have yelled at me about that as well.

[Kilgamayan]

Misrep! See pages 1/2 here. The stuff I was referring to was Kiro's serious #23, Rou's serious response to him and backtracking on his serious opinion on the RVS phase in #24, and Affinity's serious vote on Rou in #34. Also, the endgame decision I mentioned was Day 5 and ROU AND KIRO HAD FLIPPED SCUM! In contrast, the stuff Zak is using is #28 and #31 of this topic with no flips. Go and read those posts now. Go on. That's the main basis for his case on huh what.

Misremembered is closer to what happened there, but granted, that point is dropped.

Over at MS, they play Mafia(TM), a game in which players are divided up into town and scum! A scumtell is something that scum are (adjusting for numbers) decidedly more likely to do than town. After reading through 000s of MS games and some of their MD topics, I agree that AtE is done by town and scum in about the same proportions as there are of each faction in an average game. And after flicking through some of the recent games I missed here, I'm on the verge of saying that a comparably experienced MS town nowadays is generally as competent if not moreso than MoTK town! (I love you guys, but seriously, 7 town losses in a row? That assassin game doesn't count) So as far as I'm concerned, AtE is a null tell both there and here, and I don't see how it's scummy in the slightest to think this.

The average MS user couldn't find their own asshole with a GPS (present company, like UK and K4U and whoever else I'm forgetting, notwithstanding) and I very much doubt you've read that many games over there if that is the conclusion you've drawn. That's all well and good if Dumbfuckistan has decided to let AtE run rampant and ruin any semblance of an intelligent game (assuming the three-week-long days, long stretches of absence by players and mods alike, and votes based on flavor haven't ruined it already), but at real sites like here and the DL AtE is frowned upon at the very least and often votable. I can go over the game theory reasons why AtE is a scummy tactic if you like, though that seems better served for postgame, especially since exactly zero percent of my Kefit case is based on AtE. The important thing is that I'm not going to let MS set an incorrect standard and I'm certainly not going to let you hide behind it here.

Also, Carth used AtE as town in WTC, a game which you modded, and I know you hold him in high regard all joking aside. LAL etc.

I honestly don't remember this. Do you remember what day it was on, at least, so I can go look for it?

[Kilgamayan]

Wait, hold up, my brain is clearly mush.  I know what happened with the first point now.

My mind was on this vote from FAV, which was followed later by this post from me, that got this response. As far as I was concerned, my post in the middle (as well as all the posts before that) were still well within joking parameters, and yet FAV was pushing at them in a serious manner.

This was also on my mind when I concluded hypocrisy; FAV pushed at me in a serious manner for what I felt was obvious non-seriousness, and then she pushed at Zakeri for seriously pushing at huh what for obvious non-seriousness. Kicking myself for not mentioning it at the time. All I can say is that I was distracted by the latest shiny in the form of WTC Mafia discussion.

[Kilgamayan]

Except, in pondering it some more, I think Zakeri's behaved in a worse manner than I have and has done so for longer, so the vote for him at this point would be stronger than the vote for me would be.

Consider that accusation withdrawn as well, then. At this point my main issue with FAV is how oddly smug she's been acting, and I probably come off that way myself to others, so that's hardly a good reason to want to vote for someone.

[Serela]

Okay, I'm off to bed for the night. Then I've got school, so judging from Serp's last Vote/Timecount, I should be back about 3 hours before deadline... but it's not outside the realm of reason that I won't be, either. So I really feel that I should be using my vote, especially in case I'm not back before D1 ends.

Right now, it looks like the lynch will go to Zakeri, Kefit, or Pesco. There certainly still could be a turn around, but I can't predict the next 18~ hours before I'm probably back.

Zakeri isn't looking great, but... my gut feeling is not to vote on him. Kefit doesn't look terrible to me, although not great either, and I don't know where I stand on him. Pesco looks the worst of the three to me, although I'm not used to his playing style in the first place. Still, out of those three... ##Vote:Pesco

And if the near-end of D1 contains stuff that can change my mind (likely), well, I should probably have 2~3 hours tommorow to digest the new information before deadline. Assuming someone isn't given a majority and lynched before I'm back. G'nights, y'all.

[LHCling]

Cut by relevant person, this needs to get out NOW.

154.
Where the bloody hell am I on that list? What, did you just miss out on me or something?

Back to my original post in progress.

[LHCling]

And I'll cut you with a "where's Alice?" on that list as well.

[Serela]

Oh, Baity; thankfully I noticed your post before I went off firefox. Was just giving CPMC a final peek and such totally not procrastinating having to go sleep.

...it seems I did miss you. Sorry! You're on the "I Dunno" list; I guess I had so little thought process on you that I forgot completely :V

Alice isn't on the list either; same section, same reason. The reason being, I copied Serp's votecount for the list, and forgot the two of you hadn't been voted by anyone yet.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

@ Excal #133: Wait, what? How is making a terrible vote supposed to move the game on? Were you hoping to get reactions for being a derp or something that you could base a real vote off? This seems like a terribad excuse to me and I don't understand what you're getting at at all.

@ Sodium in general: All your posts have just been short strings of comments, and a lot of your #155 is parroting (you even admitted you already said your comment towards Pesco. Self parroting?). You do not have to make a wall to contribute. Also, how is Excal's reason for Bennyvotan acceptable at all?

The case on Kefit seems pretty reasonable, and there are a couple things he's done that I'd like elaboration on. #112 has a paragraph based on Benny pushing for a quicklynch... after Benny clarified he misworded his post and was against a quicklynch. In fact, that entire post comes off as derp to me. A post intending to remind Benny that the case on him exists should not be necessary unless we were experiencing a Votecount Drought or something, because votecounts would easily do the same thing. Rest of the post does not add anything at all and I think Kilga went over that.

About the Benny case: I think Rat hit the nail on the head. I'm seeing something in Benny's post that others do not. This happens with me from time to time in various contexts, be it literature, movies, whatever. Generally, after reflection I realize that I am seeing something that's not there. I think this is one of those times. I'm essentially doing stringent word choice analysis on a colloquial post in a game played on an internet forum, which really doesn't make much sense. And yes, the rest of the case against Benny is bad, but those were never my reasons for voting in the first place.

I'm not sure why nobody has called Kefit out for this yet, but this paragraph is almost entirely fluff. It could easily just be reduced to "Oh, my reasons for voting Benny sucked and weren't part of my actual case on him. Nevermind."  Plus, he never exactly said what he reasons he was referring in the last sentence. Would like elaboration on that because he should not expect me to know what reasons he is talking about (and I don't). Kefit's jump off the Benny wagon in general is bad as well. It really just looks like he's taking back everything he said on the grounds that it was derpy and then insults it after his unvote just to make it look like he had nothing to do with the wagon, and I do not like this at all.

##Unvote
##Vote Kefit

There is one minor thing about the case on Kefit I dislike, though.

He pressed Zakeri regarding not following up with a vote, which anyone can do (and in fact I would expect to see from scum slightly more simply because of how easy and seemingly-pro-town it is),

This is silly. Zak's lack of following up with a vote wasn't that great, but since anyone indeed call him out for it this should be a nulltell. The comment in parenthesis makes it seem like this was just a quip you made so your Kefit case would have a bit more content (even though it would have been fine without it).

However, Pesco doesn't seem much better to me. Despite what he said, #97 does not explain his Zakvote, in fact, he said he found Zak later actions null. He seems to have minimal reasoning on why Zak is scum. Regarding his big post on page 5: I never said I disliked his initial case on Zak, but rather how he had no real good reasons to stay on it (from what he said) even though he did. Also, his jump onto Kefit is kinda lacking. From what I gather, Pesco is voting Kefit for not saying anything about him beyond a couple of sentances. It doesn't seem like a specifically scummy jump but it seems silly and I hope I'm missing something here.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Serela: I need to start paying attention to you. Do you have anything to say about people who don't have bandwagons on them?

[Kilgamayan]

Baity: It's a general gameplay opinion I hold, simply because I think scum are more likely to jump at the opportunity to present themselves as pro-town without taking a meaningful stance than town is, because scum are trying their level best to look pro-town while town's top priority is scum-hunting as opposed to self-preservation. (Self-preservation and making people think you're town IS important, but it's more important to scum than it is to town for reasons that should be obvious.) You're welcome to disagree, though. The difference in likelihoods is not that large anyway, and I would have voted Kefit even without holding that opinion; the main point behind that entire sentence was to make sure I quelched the idea that Kefit looked townier as a result of calling out Zakeri (i.e. it was a null tell at best for him, which is a stance I would be glad to see people (like you) take).

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

You have the wrong IM there :<

I can tell that it wouldn't have changed your vote, yeah. It just seemed kinda off to me.

[Kilgamayan]

Right, sorry.

Jesus, my brain really is mush.

[Kefit]

I'm not sure why nobody has called Kefit out for this yet, but this paragraph is almost entirely fluff. It could easily just be reduced to "Oh, my reasons for voting Benny sucked and weren't part of my actual case on him. Nevermind."  Plus, he never exactly said what he reasons he was referring in the last sentence. Would like elaboration on that because he should not expect me to know what reasons he is talking about (and I don't). Kefit's jump off the Benny wagon in general is bad as well. It really just looks like he's taking back everything he said on the grounds that it was derpy and then insults it after his unvote just to make it look like he had nothing to do with the wagon, and I do not like this at all.

My reasons for voting Benny in the first place were explained in this post. You know, the same post where I derped up on the Benny pressure stuff that everyone is citing for the crux of the case against me.

And yeah, I derped it up in that post. Rat's words triggered an impulse in my mind to step back and go "hey Kefit, that thing you think you see here, you know, it doesn't actually exist, derp. You've done gone and derped it up, derp." You are correct in that I implied this earlier, and now I am explicitly stating it. I have attempted to be more intelligible since realizing my own fuck-up.  I have tried to follow through with this by employing more effective scum hunting (i.e. stuff that isn't entirely based on posts coming right out of the RVS) and switching my vote to a more sensible case, but apparently this ALSO looks scummy to some of you guys, somehow.

ps I am now imagining "derp" as a cute sound or sentence suffix used by a moe anime character.

[Sodium]

HW, Pesco asked for elaboration, so I tried to give moar, although I really couldn't give anything beyond that. Which lead to me saying almost the exact same thing.
Good Enough being that I could see why a townie would do that. Thus it turned into a null-tell for me. As for why I can see why a Townie would do that, there have been a lot of "get-out-of-RVS" voting in other games.

Oh man, that MS rant was hilarious, Kilga.

I find it really odd that there are 3 possible lynch targets right now. I mean, if we caught exactly 1 scum, then the scum team would either try and get town lynched over scum by moving their votes onto a single town instead of spreading their votes between two townies when a buddy could be lynched, or they would start bussing. Both would end up reducing the number of possible lynch targets to 2 because the first is self-explanatory, and the second is rather stupid for scum to do that if town's votes were spread over two townies. Basically, this is really bugging me. =V

Although I'm assuming day talk(so they can coordinate), which we have no idea whether they have that or not. And that we aren't just hitting three townies/more than 1 scum, because those are unlikely.

Actually, vote count? Because I'm too lazy to see how many votes Zak, Pesco, and Kefit have exactly.

Pesco still my preferred lynched. Waiting for Baity's reread.

Going to sleep.