Final Boss Music Discussion

[Fightest]

No, they are all very clearly minor just about all the way through. ;>_>  Though you might be referring to the fact that all three pieces make extensive use of picardy thirds at the end of certain cadences(Japanese composers seem to freaking LOVE doing that, never really understood why).  So I was wrong, they're not completely minor, just like 95% minor. :V

Okay, seriously, what are you on about? We'll take Cosmic Mind as an example, I am the most familiar with that. By its sheet music - and I do realise all arrangements need to be taken with a grain of salt - the first part, despite being in G minor, alternates heavily between G minor and F and E-flat majors, the second part is just simply in D-flat major and the third, that airy, triumphant part, is in G major.

[Hawk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdMhTL5bZrs

Okay, yeah, this is pretty good.  Rocking guitars...

Nice piano...

OH
MY
EARGASM

[theshirn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdMhTL5bZrs

Okay, yeah, this is pretty good.  Rocking guitars...

Nice piano...

OH
MY
EARGASM

Almost posted that, but I'd already put up The Almighty, and it's primarily a redux of the Velvet Room theme anyway, so it's not quite the same.

Azinth and Fightest, figure out which one is right so I know how stupid I am already. :V

[Azinth]

Okay, seriously, what are you on about? We'll take Cosmic Mind as an example, I am the most familiar with that. By its sheet music - and I do realise all arrangements need to be taken with a grain of salt - the first part, despite being in G minor, alternates heavily between G minor and F and E-flat majors, the second part is just simply in D-flat major and the third, that airy, triumphant part, is in G major.

Just listening to the original, it starts in G minor, modulates to Bb minor for the second section, then to E minor for the last part, then back to G minor for the outro and loop.  At no point does it go into a major key.  I'm not sure where you're getting most of those keys from tbh.

Whatever though, I feel like I've been contributing to too many off-topic arguments lately.  :V

[Fightest]

Just listening to the original, it starts in G minor, modulates to Bb minor for the second section, then to E minor for the last part, then back to G minor for the outro and loop.  At no point does it go into a major key.  I'm not sure where you're getting most of those keys from tbh.

Emphasis mine - how? It is clearly in G major (and later E flat major). There are no accidentals to suggest a minor key - no D-sharp for the first part of the last part that would signify E minor, and, once it switches key signature to B-flat and E-flat, no F-sharp to signify it being G minor.

The same applies to the modulation from G minor - if it were in B-flat minor I would expect to see an A natural, but there are no accidentals at all. And you know as well as I do that this is characteristic.

[SAS]

 DESPERADO and NO REMORSE.
Seriously, I love those two tracks. They are just pure awesome. I love final boss music as pretty fast paced. It has to give feeling of a final battle.

[Ghaleon]

So I was trying to contribute to this, but I don't know cosmic mind terribly much since it's one of Zun's "meh"ist final boss songs IMO. The best I could come up with (I have no keyboard or musical instrument at my disposal mind you, go easy on me!) was jamming on this online 1.5-octave range mouse-only virtual keyboard: AAAAA,G AAAAA,G, AAAAAB,G, Then D#D#D#D#D#,C#, etc >=P.

Key signatures are funny creatures for me. I seem to be able to get them and figure them out as easily as any composer when I'm working with music on a regular basis, but as soon as I stop, even if only for a couple weeks. I'm dumb as bricks when it comes to trying to figure that shit out all over again. It' definately not like riding a bike for me >=p

[Azinth]

Ugh why did this shit have to get bumped.  Fine.

Emphasis mine - how? It is clearly in G major (and later E flat major).

E minor and G major both have the same key signature:  F sharp and nothing else.  Maybe you thought that section was in G major because it starts on a G, but the important thing is to listen for the tonic note, that is the note that the phrases always end up trying to resolve to, which in this case is definitely E.  The G is just meant to lead up to that. 

There are no accidentals to suggest a minor key - no D-sharp for the first part of the last part that would signify E minor, and, once it switches key signature to B-flat and E-flat, no F-sharp to signify it being G minor.

The same applies to the modulation from G minor - if it were in B-flat minor I would expect to see an A natural, but there are no accidentals at all. And you know as well as I do that this is characteristic.

This piece is in natural minor.  And in a natural minor scale(as opposed to harmonic or melodic), the seventh isn't raised, which means no accidentals.  The majority of ZUN's pieces are in natural minor, though there are of course exceptions(Doll of Misery says hi).

tbh, it's hard to understand/refute your arguments when you're going off some sheet music that I've never even seen before.  I just got that analysis from listening to the theme and playing along with it.  Looking at music isn't necessary; It's a very simple piece structurally, I know what a major scale/key sounds like and Cosmic Mind has none.  Don't really know what else to say.

IIRC, the only compositions of ZUN's I've heard that are mostly major are the credits theme from 12.5 and that one EX ending theme from MS(yes I've forgotten both of the names).  The rest are pretty much all minor.  That's just the style that ZUN composes in.

[Mushyrulez]

...May not be my turn to speak here, but going through most of ZUN's pieces, they seem to all resolve around a common chord progression, specifically, I - VII (natural) - VI - (sometimes) V (with raised leading note), and almost always in minor... I think it's there to provide smoothest changes between chords as well as most alternate notes being played in different chords; going upwards hits a bump with the very dissonant II, and downwards with raised leading note results in even more of a bad melody... In other words, ZUN uses a natural minor scale because it's the smoothest, easiest way to provided a decent beat/tone for the piece... it's in G minor.

Besides, how could you modulate G major to E flat major anyways? The leap in solely accidentals is tremendous, and it's not related chromatically either... :S

[Alice Fact]

Sex pervert of a silence

[RainfallYoshi]

For me, the music has to really get your heart racing and your mind going "How in the hell am I going to live through this". It adds to the suspense of the big showdown, puts you on edge.

Grand Cross - Final Fantasy IX

You can't honestly say that a Final Boss theme featuring the constant moaning of tormented souls isn't epic enough to make your heart race.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Maybe I'm a Kitten xD
This one is actually called Disgaea, I call it Armageddon, Armageddon :3
Apocalypse Need I say more?

These are final battle themes. Let us discuss them

[Fightest]

Maybe I'm a Kitten xD
This one is actually called Disgaea, I call it Armageddon, Armageddon :3
Apocalypse Need I say more?

These are final battle themes. Let us discuss them

They are darned sweet battle themes indeed, and I keep noting to myself that FF8 has very memorable boss music in general (oddly enough, aside from the very last one).

The infamous "Hold Devil's Pot of Tea" from God of War is fantastic, just for the meme. Though it's more of a leitmotif than anything else, it appears pretty much everywhere.

And I still listen to Battle Hymn of the Soul, The Almighty, Mist and The Genesis as if I'm hearing them for the first time.

[doubletakeedit] Nope, letting the argument die. I'll agree to disagree.

[hyorinryu]

I'll just leave this here.