Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3

[Esoterica]

4 girl team is impossible. You simply don't have enough answers to deal with the enemies. Rather do a run with none of the optionals.

Btw, when you do NG+ with all the chars available from the start, do you still need to recruit the ones required for story, e.g. Chen and Cirno?

Nope, since you already have them.

I'd still recommend it for the sake of exp and items though.

[Pesco]

I'd just hax in the items :V

[Esoterica]

I'd just hax in the items :V

That works too. :V

[MysTeariousYukari]

In basic theory or w/e, you have plenty for "answers" to enemies by having Patchy, Reimu, Marisa and Remi. ATK Nuke, MYS Nuke, SPI Nuke(ish) and Healer/buffer, Elemental Nuke. All 4 elements, an Attacker, a healer/buffer. It covers everything, so it is possilbe to build a 4-girl team that can handle all the trash the game has. Similarly you could use sumthing like...

Spoiler:

Utsuho, Yuka, Sikieiki and Kanako.

Any team CAN work, it takes planing and know-how, but a party of Chen, Aya, Rumia and Sakuya could beat the game. Note each character and how they act. No decent healing, just high-speed(litterally) DPS and a lot of glass waiting to be shattered

[Ghaleon]

In basic theory or w/e, you have plenty for "answers" to enemies by having Patchy, Reimu, Marisa and Remi. ATK Nuke, MYS Nuke, SPI Nuke(ish) and Healer/buffer, Elemental Nuke. All 4 elements, an Attacker, a healer/buffer. It covers everything, so it is possilbe to build a 4-girl team that can handle all the trash the game has. Similarly you could use sumthing like...

Spoiler:

Utsuho, Yuka, Sikieiki and Kanako.

Any team CAN work, it takes planing and know-how, but a party of Chen, Aya, Rumia and Sakuya could beat the game. Note each character and how they act. No decent healing, just high-speed(litterally) DPS and a lot of glass waiting to be shattered

All of the so-called "balanced" combos would require a stupid boring amount of level grinding to accomplish even basic battles though. For example, with the Remi, reimu,marisa,patchy combo. Pretty much any boss with a physical attack all (arrow rain, needle parade, etc) would 1-shot marisa and Patchy until you're super ridiculous level. Remu herself isn't exactly a great choice for a 2nd slot tank, and Remi, while capable of being a 1st slot tank, probably wouldn't last very long when the only source of healing is Reimu's ho-hum size heal (ho-hum to a tank taking all the damage I mean) on a huge 100% delay.

The viability of playing such a game is just ridiculous. Nobody in their right mind would do it. I honestly think even beating winner 100 times would be less tedious, and certainly more fun since you at least have the ability to enjoy the full cast at your leisure.

[Pesco]

Wasn't the initial condition that 4 girls had to be linked by some theme?

My any 4 team

Spoiler:

Meiling, Flandre, Sanae, Patchy

Slow like a tank and hits just as hard.

[Ghaleon]

Wasn't the initial condition that 4 girls had to be linked by some theme?

My any 4 team

Spoiler:

Meiling, Flandre, Sanae, Patchy

Slow like a tank and hits just as hard.

I don't think flan is slow, actualy I think she's a notch above average (even given her slow leveling curve). And meiling and

Spoiler:

sanae

hit about as hard as a wet noodle.

[Pesco]

But we don't use them for hitting. I suppose Reimu is still viable.

[Ghaleon]

But we don't use them for hitting. I suppose Reimu is still viable.

so the theme is really "tank, person who hits hard, healer cuz heals are good, and reimu because she's useful" >=P

err wait, you didn't even mention reimu.. you mean as substitution for

Spoiler:

sanae

? Still, I wouldn't exactly call that a solid enough theme to dismiss the other party-ideas for being non-themed.

I don't even know why I'm discussing this theme business anyway. I sincerely doubt anybody is ever going to 4-man the entire game and actually enjoy it and wish they never did (and it's likely anybody will at all without cheating). I think not cheating isn't in your vocabulary anyway, we know you use rollhax for monopoly. I don't think I've ever played a game where you didn't somehow get a lead long before anybody even made a single trade or decision >=P, hax.

Though I guess it's possible of  you NG+ it at a decent level and use end-game equipment from the NG+. But that's obvious, you can just steal hime's save and 1-shot your way with 1 character the whole game under those terms.

[RainfallYoshi]

There was actually a video of Alice soloing the

Spoiler:

Eintei Triple Boss

on YouTube a good time before NG+ even existed. I'll try and refind the video and I'll edit it in when/if I find it.

The main point being that if Alice can solo stuff, a 4-girl team can do pretty well.

[Ghaleon]

There was actually a video of Alice soloing the

Spoiler:

Eintei Triple Boss

on YouTube a good time before NG+ even existed. I'll try and refind the video and I'll edit it in when/if I find it.

The main point being that if Alice can solo stuff, a 4-girl team can do pretty well.

What was her level though? Chances are it's so high that you'd be bored outta your skull before being willing to do that (for the whole game). Not to mention that particular boss is actually pretty easy in that regard. Eiki for example would be a much better example of one difficult to solo (or 4man).

I don't mean to be a buzzkill, if you want to do this be my guest. But honestly. I hear 90% of the people who try this game have one gripe about it. and that is that it requires grinding. I find I'm one of very few people who say "actually it doesn't", to hear people suddenly decide it wont require a stupid ridiculous amount of grinding to accommodate for a self-inflicted shot in the foot is curious. Not to mention of of the cool aspects of this game is party dynamics, balance and design. Most RPGS limit you to a small party with no choice of who is in it. This one is no such game, and tha'ts quite frankly one of the features that make it awsome. Why you'd want to toss that is beyond me, but it is a game, and if you think it's fun go ahead. I remain skeptical that any of you (or anybody else) would enjoy it though >=P.

[Axel Ryman]

What was her level though? Chances are it's so high that you'd be bored outta your skull before being willing to do that (for the whole game). Not to mention that particular boss is actually pretty easy in that regard. Eiki for example would be a much better example of one difficult to solo (or 4man).

Unfortunately that's the problem with SCC's(Or LCC's(Limited Character Challenge), since we're talking about a character party), they always require heavy grinding to be a ridiculously high level just to stand a chance at certain boss fights. Best example I can think of is trying to a Yuna Only No Summons challenge for FFX. If you don't know how bad the grind is there, well here's a hint: You need to get Holy on Besaid. Two words: GOOD LUCK!!


Depending how you do the LCC it could be difficult or not too bad. Doing something like "Playable Characters from the Official Series"(ZUN's works, also including IaMP, SWR, and UNL) would make it a bit too easy, since most of those characters are ones that are used because of their best features(10F Tank, HP-Tank, the Nukes, etc). Changing it up to something like "PCB Cast" would make it more difficult, but still quite fun, to an extent. You'll only have Reimu's heal to help you out and chances are you won't make it too far. That's considering you only do regular grinding plus a little extra. For a 4CC, you'll have to grind a lot just to get near beating certain bosses. Be prepared to clear your schedule.

[Esoterica]

What was her level though? Chances are it's so high that you'd be bored outta your skull before being willing to do that (for the whole game). Not to mention that particular boss is actually pretty easy in that regard. Eiki for example would be a much better example of one difficult to solo (or 4man).

I don't mean to be a buzzkill, if you want to do this be my guest. But honestly. I hear 90% of the people who try this game have one gripe about it. and that is that it requires grinding. I find I'm one of very few people who say "actually it doesn't", to hear people suddenly decide it wont require a stupid ridiculous amount of grinding to accommodate for a self-inflicted shot in the foot is curious. Not to mention of of the cool aspects of this game is party dynamics, balance and design. Most RPGS limit you to a small party with no choice of who is in it. This one is no such game, and tha'ts quite frankly one of the features that make it awsome. Why you'd want to toss that is beyond me, but it is a game, and if you think it's fun go ahead. I remain skeptical that any of you (or anybody else) would enjoy it though >=P.

Seriously, I'm not sure where the "grinding is necessary" mentality comes from.  The only bosses I ended up grinding for were

Spoiler:

Orin

because I needed to be able to get through the first five fights with a decent amount of SP and TP, and currently

Spoiler:

Yukari

because I'm apparently so underleveled that I can't survive until my first turn :ohdear:

Really though, any fight where it seems like you'd be underleveled can be solved with careful use of status ailments, buffs/debuffs, and other strategies.  For example, I beat Flan at level 65 with only 3 characters really doing anything by letting my entire active party sans my tank die off at the start, then swapping in Sanae to buff

Spoiler:

Kaguya

, have her drop a nuke or two, then switch them both into the empty slots so my tank could take 0 damage from a Laveatein, rinse and repeat until win.

EDIT: Speaking of the 16F fight, I'm getting my ass kicked.  I can't keep more than one attacker alive until the last form.  Current lineup (which I've kind of been fooling around with):

Spoiler:

Tenshi

Spoiler:

Ran

Reimu

Spoiler:

Flandre

Youmu

Spoiler:

Suika

Spoiler:

Sanae

Spoiler:

Suwako

Spoiler:

Komachi

Spoiler:

Nitori

Spoiler:

Aya

Spoiler:

Kaguya

Current strategy: Have the tanks remove her buffs, either via actually removing them or through debuffs, then try to slaughter her with nature-element attacks.  I've been having

Spoiler:

Ran

buff attack while Reimu buffs defense, but

Spoiler:

Aya's

been rather useless for the most part, mostly due to the fact that by the time I've got the boss debuffed and the rest of the team buffed and healed to a safe level I get Djinn Storm'd, so I might switch her out for Sakuya so I can just speed buff everyone on the first turn and be done with it.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Here is what I reccomend doing. Early into the fight you should have

Spoiler:

Ran out casting 12 General Gods until everyone in the back has +100% ATK and MAG buffs, then do the same with her DEF/MND buff until they are at 100% or until Ran can't cast anymore.

16F has 650,000 HP, so use your computer Calculator to count the dmg your dealing. Just before 16F has 200k HP left, bring in all you heavy hitters and go wild. If your can, try to bring them out when 16Fs turn gauge is rather empty.

Spoiler:

Suwako

can hit for 100k if your properly leveled and all that, so the 200k in time shouldn't be impossible.

[Esoterica]

Here is what I reccomend doing. Early into the fight you should have

Spoiler:

Ran out casting 12 General Gods until everyone in the back has +100% ATK and MAG buffs, then do the same with her DEF/MND buff until they are at 100% or until Ran can't cast anymore.

16F has 650,000 HP, so use your computer Calculator to count the dmg your dealing. Just before 16F has 200k HP left, bring in all you heavy hitters and go wild. If your can, try to bring them out when 16Fs turn gauge is rather empty.

Spoiler:

Suwako

can hit for 100k if your properly leveled and all that, so the 200k in time shouldn't be impossible.

Unfortunately, pretty much my current strategy right here.  I'll just grind a couple more levels then.

EDIT: Nevermind, just swapped Aya for Sakuya and completely floored her without any deaths.  Between Sakuya's SP regen and her ability to buff everyone in a single turn, I was able to get speed buffs in place both before and after every Djinn Storm, and managed to skip phase 3 completely because Youmu and Suwako were able to regen and attack fast enough.

[Garlyle]

Seriously, I'm not sure where the "grinding is necessary" mentality comes from.  The only bosses I ended up grinding for were

Spoiler:

Orin

because I needed to be able to get through the first five fights with a decent amount of SP and TP, and currently

Spoiler:

Yukari

because I'm apparently so underleveled that I can't survive until my first turn :ohdear:

Protip: F16's boss is the first one most people have to grind for.  If you can barely squeak by it, there's still a pretty big chance you're going to have to grind to get through F18's... and then it's another 30-40 levels past that for the final boss (not to mention all of the bonus bosses), soyeah

[Anima Zero]

There was actually a video of Alice soloing the

Spoiler:

Eintei Triple Boss

on YouTube a good time before NG+ even existed. I'll try and refind the video and I'll edit it in when/if I find it.

The main point being that if Alice can solo stuff, a 4-girl team can do pretty well.

Here's a link to that boss fight in question.  Obvious do not watch warning here if you have not cleared 12F yet for spoilers on who you fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgaXpQQVFTs

[Esoterica]

Protip: F16's boss is the first one most people have to grind for.  If you can barely squeak by it, there's still a pretty big chance you're going to have to grind to get through F18's... and then it's another 30-40 levels past that for the final boss (not to mention all of the bonus bosses), soyeah

Well, I made a point of doing 17F instead of just blindly running past, so hopefully that helped out.  Good to see the 15F nuker still downing everything (on 17F anyway; 18F's an entirely different story) in one turn.

But yeah, like I said, merely swapping Aya out for Sakuya was enough of a change to let me beat her without anyone dying.

[RainfallYoshi]

Here's a link to that boss fight in question.  Obvious do not watch warning here if you have not cleared 12F yet for spoilers on who you fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgaXpQQVFTs

Thank you! I could never refind that. As you can see from the beginning of the video the Level Average is 63. I'm not sure how far above the normal recommended level that is but it doesn't seem so horrible...

[Esoterica]

Thank you! I could never refind that. As you can see from the beginning of the video the Level Average is 63. I'm not sure how far above the normal recommended level that is but it doesn't seem so horrible...

That's not average level, that's max level (Chen, if he leveled everyone).

[The Greatest Dog]

Still, Alice definitely has participated in the most battles in that video.

But... I swear that Wriggle poison dealt at least 60000 damage to the frozen frog boss on F8, so now I'm thinking that my party might be right now:

Reimu
Marisa
Remilia
Patchouli

Spoiler:

Youmu
Aya
Wriggle
Suwako
Yuugi
Minoriko
Komachi
Alice

[Esoterica]

Still, Alice definitely has participated in the most battles in that video.

But... I swear that Wriggle poison dealt at least 60000 damage to the frozen frog boss on F8, so now I'm thinking that my party might be right now:

Reimu
Marisa
Remilia
Patchouli

Spoiler:

Youmu
Aya
Wriggle
Suwako
Yuugi
Minoriko
Komachi
Alice

You'll find that your new 7F tank's ability to poison alongside other status effects will replace Wriggle pretty quickly.  If you have nuke-type characters with high paralysis resistance, I'd recommend using 6F for both buffing and higher damage output than Wriggle (while the wiki says her buffs are +50% to attack and magic, it gives at least 60-75% in actuality, which is easily one of the best attack buffs in the game).

...speaking of which, she might complement

Spoiler:

Flandre

rather well.  Time to go test something. :V

EDIT: Just tried it and got 72% buff to both offensive stats.  Odd number, but okay.

EDIT2: Oh holy God 200k on 18F mobs, I'm so using her now.

[The Greatest Dog]

You'll find that your new 7F tank's ability to poison alongside other status effects will replace Wriggle pretty quickly.  If you have nuke-type characters with high paralysis resistance, I'd recommend using 6F for both buffing and higher damage output than Wriggle (while the wiki says her buffs are +50% to attack and magic, it gives at least 60-75% in actuality, which is easily one of the best attack buffs in the game).

...speaking of which, she might complement

Spoiler:

Flandre

rather well.  Time to go test something. :V

EDIT: Just tried it and got 72% buff to both offensive stats.  Odd number, but okay.

EDIT2: Oh holy God 200k on 18F mobs, I'm so using her now.

I dunno. 7F's poisoning ability would be nice, but among other things I didn't particularly get the majority of her debuffs while fighting

Spoiler:

Suwako

or her paralysis. I mean, her 4500 freaking HP already is nice for virtually any purpose... But her damage is subpar to 70% of my team, though, even against groups, I haven't spent too much effort raising her attack.

[Esoterica]

I dunno. 7F's poisoning ability would be nice, but among other things I didn't particularly get the majority of her debuffs while fighting

Spoiler:

Suwako

or her paralysis. I mean, her 4500 freaking HP already is nice for virtually any purpose... But her damage is subpar to 70% of my team, though, even against groups, I haven't spent too much effort raising her attack.

Her role isn't damage output, it's tank with debuff support.  Though, Wriggle's damage doesn't stay up to par with the rest of the team very long.  Honestly, you'll probably be replacing her after 9F.

[The Greatest Dog]

Her role isn't damage output, it's tank with debuff support.  Though, Wriggle's damage doesn't stay up to par with the rest of the team very long.  Honestly, you'll probably be replacing her after 9F.

So, then, aside from her HP and elemental resistances, what are you supposed to increase in her level ups?
Oh, and Wriggle consistently dealt 0 damage to miss frozen frog.

[LHCling]

HP, HP and more HP? I don't see anything else you can go with for her.

And Wriggle is awesome, don't be hatin'  :<

Spoiler:

Going to continue with my 2nd playthrough now, I'll keep you people updated

.

[Esoterica]

HP, HP and more HP? I don't see anything else you can go with for her.

And Wriggle is awesome, don't be hatin'  :<

Spoiler:

Going to continue with my 2nd playthrough now, I'll keep you people updated

.

Yeah, HP and elemental resistances are all I put into her.  Bonus points into speed, SP and attack as well, she can actually deal respectable damage with her fourth card.

I can't help it, I'm not a fan. :<

[The Greatest Dog]

HP, HP and more HP? I don't see anything else you can go with for her.

And Wriggle is awesome, don't be hatin'  :<

Spoiler:

Going to continue with my 2nd playthrough now, I'll keep you people updated

.

Oh, hey, someone else thinks Wriggle is awesome... Invisible, constant damage FTW!

Eh, can someone figure out how much poison damage she can do bosses compared to, say, any other type of poison? I mean, like, go and find the formula for it.
Bosses later on are probably going to be immune to it, though, aren't they?

[Ghaleon]

Oh, hey, someone else thinks Wriggle is awesome... Invisible, constant damage FTW!

Eh, can someone figure out how much poison damage she can do bosses compared to, say, any other type of poison? I mean, like, go and find the formula for it.
Bosses later on are probably going to be immune to it, though, aren't they?

I forget where but I believe that has been listedactually. Garlyle might know, he was a wriggle addict IIRC.

I never use it myself but I believe poison damage worked on most (if not all) bosses end-game.

[Esoterica]

I never use it myself but I believe poison damage worked on most (if not all) bosses end-game.

On 18F and so far I don't recall fighting anyone that was poison-resistant (though I know the boss on this floor is).