Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3  (Read 178263 times)

Garlyle

  • I can't brain today
  • I have the dumb
    • Tormod Plays Games
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #600 on: March 04, 2010, 05:34:34 AM »
Ah, you're planning on LPing this game?  Cool bro, story 8D

I'd still prefer some form of audio commentary, even if you have to do it in post.  But lots of annotations works for a bit.

Axel Ryman

  • Fear me
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #601 on: March 04, 2010, 05:52:37 AM »
I realize that smarter ai is often the most rewarding way to increase difficulty, but that is often the most difficult and time consuming. It probably be easier in an rpg, but you should consider a smart ai in an rpg would just plain suck. How long would it take for you to throw your monitor out the window if enemies always picked on your squishies, or if they just spammed their best moves, etc.

Regardless of stats being increased being a "cheap" way to increase difficulty options, it's still an option. Nobody forces you to do it, and the amount of effort to actually program that into a game is so trivial it's almost stupid not to do it IMO.

If you have the time to make multiple ai for difficulties, you might as well have the option to change stats too.

The main reason why I hate it is cause it doesn't really provide much of a difficulty change. Its like going from Easy to Normal, its a bit noticeable but still not that hard. Main reason why I suggested new attacks and such to better the AI is so it actually does provide some form of a harder difficulty. Of course when I say this I don't mean something like the boss will use their ultimate attack consecutively early on or anything, I mean like an attack that inflicts multiple status effects/debuffs, buff himself, or one of their original attacks with some form of added effect. Yeah it might take some trial and error, but didn't we have to do that on our first time playing through games to find the strategy that worked?

Granted sometimes this won't always be effective and does take more time, its worth it really. Stat increases are nice but..then its basically just forcing you to grind so you can do what you did the other times you fought against the boss. Tales of the Abyss suffered with this, and those who did the very first battle in the game on Unknown mode would know that Stat increases aren't fun.

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #602 on: March 04, 2010, 06:59:41 AM »
Assuming the game uses a RNG as part of the gameplay, would adjusting the boundaries of the RNG be a valid difficulty setting? For example: In Easy mode, the RNG range for damage is 3d8 - 3. For Hard, make that 4d6 + 6.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #603 on: March 04, 2010, 08:35:52 AM »
The main reason why I hate it is cause it doesn't really provide much of a difficulty change. Its like going from Easy to Normal, its a bit noticeable but still not that hard. Main reason why I suggested new attacks and such to better the AI is so it actually does provide some form of a harder difficulty. Of course when I say this I don't mean something like the boss will use their ultimate attack consecutively early on or anything, I mean like an attack that inflicts multiple status effects/debuffs, buff himself, or one of their original attacks with some form of added effect. Yeah it might take some trial and error, but didn't we have to do that on our first time playing through games to find the strategy that worked?
While that can be done, it IMO is questionably not worth doing over simply adding more optional bosses to the game as a whole, with the same said "new tactics" as your hard mode enemies. Thereby, increasing the size and content of the game on any difficulty setting..

Quote
Granted sometimes this won't always be effective and does take more time, its worth it really. Stat increases are nice but..then its basically just forcing you to grind so you can do what you did the other times you fought against the boss. Tales of the Abyss suffered with this, and those who did the very first battle in the game on Unknown mode would know that Stat increases aren't fun.

I can't speak for tales of abyss because I never played it. But that would be an example of a bad situation or example. This is why I mentioned doubling hp and not damage. Doubling your enemy's damage obviously would require the player to just plain do more grinding, because chances are it would make many enemy attacks that are unavoidable 1shot material for a long time, which doesn't increase difficulty so much as increase the player's need to level. However, with the exception of "I'm at 20% health nuke me down in 5 seconds or I cast ****CATAPOCALYPSEE!!!!111one****, increasing hp by significant amounts increases boss difficulty without actually increasing the need for a player to grind more. Of course, there ARE some rpgs where the enemy damage output is gimp by nature, and probably COULD be buffed safely without forcing the player to level more. Anyway, giving the player the option to manipulate all of these, while requiring little more code than global constants in front of each stat would go a long way given the little effort required.

Have you played valkarie profile 2 btw? (might exist in 1 too). Additional playthrus in that game provide a stat increase to your enemies. It increases the difficulty of the game by a noticeable amount, but makes it fun and fair the whole way thru. The only problem I have with this game is that I don't WANT to have to beat the game 10 times to crank the difficulty into overdrive, if I could simply set it at the start of the game >=).

Quote
Assuming the game uses a RNG as part of the gameplay, would adjusting the boundaries of the RNG be a valid difficulty setting? For example: In Easy mode, the RNG range for damage is 3d8 - 3. For Hard, make that 4d6 + 6.

Any strategy could be valid, but everything depends on context. Personally I like an RPG with a decent amount of RNG in its damage formulas. Like FF 2/4 for example, sometimes you'd smack for 1k, and then you'd thwack the same target for 6k, and crits were NOT involved. But there was definately a clear average. I rather liked this system personally. I believe it was that you did like 500 damage, but you attacked like 15 times, and you had to roll hit/miss for each attack, when you actually selected attack. I think this system is really cool because it makes hit/evasion useful, without forcing the player into experiencing painful miss streaks on a regular basis(attacks that hit for 0 because they ALL missed I mean). However, hit/evasion can be a very bad thing to manipulate the RNG for assuming you have a more traditional hit/miss system. Because simply making the player see "miss" noticeably more often is probably just going to piss them off.

Axel Ryman

  • Fear me
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #604 on: March 04, 2010, 09:26:59 AM »
While that can be done, it IMO is questionably not worth doing over simply adding more optional bosses to the game as a whole, with the same said "new tactics" as your hard mode enemies. Thereby, increasing the size and content of the game on any difficulty setting..

I used new tactics and additional enemies mainly just to give it a sense of freshness. Its kinda like dinner. You don't wanna have the same thing every night so of course you make something new the next night, and so on and so forth.

Quote
I can't speak for tales of abyss because I never played it. But that would be an example of a bad situation or example. This is why I mentioned doubling hp and not damage. Doubling your enemy's damage obviously would require the player to just plain do more grinding, because chances are it would make many enemy attacks that are unavoidable 1shot material for a long time, which doesn't increase difficulty so much as increase the player's need to level. However, with the exception of "I'm at 20% health nuke me down in 5 seconds or I cast ****CATAPOCALYPSEE!!!!111one****, increasing hp by significant amounts increases boss difficulty without actually increasing the need for a player to grind more. Of course, there ARE some rpgs where the enemy damage output is gimp by nature, and probably COULD be buffed safely without forcing the player to level more. Anyway, giving the player the option to manipulate all of these, while requiring little more code than global constants in front of each stat would go a long way given the little effort required.

Yeah I figured you never played ToTA. I'll give you some insight on what their difficulty modes did.

You had Normal, Hard, Very Hard, and Unknown(Japan had 5, which included a Mania mode between Hard and Very Hard). On Normal, stats are normalized(1.0x). Hard mode multiplies those stats by 1.5, Very Hard by 2x, and lastly Unknown Mode multiplies the stats by...3.5(Originally 4x in the Japanese version). Now on higher modes it would allow some bosses to use their Mystic Arte(think of it as an ultimate attack). If they used them before, then they might use a different one(IF they have more than one), or reuse them later on in the battle(They usually do them when their HP is at certain points). However this isn't a problem, cause most of them are easily dodgeable(Some are full screen but won't kill, just reduce your HP to 1 at the most).

The first battle I mention is against 1 enemy, and is sort of a tutorial battle. On Unknown mode however, its just an annoyance as its a battle that lasts 10 minutes with you just infinitely wacking the damn thing dealing only 1 HP worth of damage. If your Attack(Or F. Attack, which is kinda like Magic Attack) is less than half the enemies Defense(F. Defense in cases of F. Attack), then you'll only deal 1 Damage per hit, even if you use your character's Mystic Arte. The only good thing about Unknown mode is that it can be played after you give yourself special NG+ Bonuses like 10x more exp and such, but after the first battle you just wanna say "Screw it" and switch to Hard or Very Hard mode.

I'm sure you weren't planning on something like this when you mention buffing stats for higher difficulties(You said it yourself, HP only), but of course this is one example of what not to do.  While an HP buff for higher difficulties is a nice touch, attacking a few other new additions wouldn't hurt. Heck not every enemy/boss needs a new attack/tactic, just a few of the more "Smarter" ones.

Quote
Have you played valkarie profile 2 btw? (might exist in 1 too). Additional playthrus in that game provide a stat increase to your enemies. It increases the difficulty of the game by a noticeable amount, but makes it fun and fair the whole way thru. The only problem I have with this game is that I don't WANT to have to beat the game 10 times to crank the difficulty into overdrive, if I could simply set it at the start of the game >=).

Never played a VP game, except the one for the DS. I've watched the original and VP2 though at SpeedDemosArchive(I'm..sorta trying to work on getting a Touhou game up on the site but I got no one wanting to be a verifier for Touhouvania x_x). The only thing I find wrong with what you mentioned is that I could have some really powerful equipment from the first playthrough to just blaze through the game even with a stat increase to enemies(Then again, I don't know much on how those 2 work compared to the DS one). If the stat increase is enough to make it so that using such items don't make it so easy to blaze through then that works since it would provide a little difficulty. Not that much if the enemies fight the same since I would just have to kill it the same way as before, just with stat differences.


Quote
Any strategy could be valid, but everything depends on context. Personally I like an RPG with a decent amount of RNG in its damage formulas. Like FF 2/4 for example, sometimes you'd smack for 1k, and then you'd thwack the same target for 6k, and crits were NOT involved. But there was definately a clear average. I rather liked this system personally. I believe it was that you did like 500 damage, but you attacked like 15 times, and you had to roll hit/miss for each attack, when you actually selected attack. I think this system is really cool because it makes hit/evasion useful, without forcing the player into experiencing painful miss streaks on a regular basis(attacks that hit for 0 because they ALL missed I mean). However, hit/evasion can be a very bad thing to manipulate the RNG for assuming you have a more traditional hit/miss system. Because simply making the player see "miss" noticeably more often is probably just going to piss them off.

Good thing you're talking about the original FFIV and not The After Years :v That RNG was HORRIBLE.

E-Nazrin

  • .... what're you looking at?
  • fuwafuwa pachipachi
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #605 on: March 04, 2010, 10:07:18 AM »
There's more to work with in designing gameplay difficulty levels than base numerical stats and complete AI overhauls, you realize. There are plenty of other nuances, and Labyrinth actually included a lot of them: actions that change the boss' weakness properties, differences in the recovery or charge time of attacks, differences in information given to the player, new or different counterattack AI, or changes in added properties to attacks. The last one in particular could work pretty well.

For example, Cirno. For a given combat phase she'd use a different attack on each difficulty. Or the same attack, with different properties, though that'd be confusing without a difficulty note at the end of it (lol icicle fall -easy-). On Easy, that given attack would just do single-target ice damage. On Normal, it also debuffs speed a little. On Hard, it debuffs speed more. On Lunatic, it hits the whole party for a slightly smaller speed debuff. These little strategic nuances are a big part of what made Labyrinth fun to me, so they're worth capitalizing on.

I don't know what I'm saying anymore.
There was something here once. Wonder what...

Garlyle

  • I can't brain today
  • I have the dumb
    • Tormod Plays Games
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #606 on: March 04, 2010, 12:04:15 PM »
Just to point out, for VP2, there was no actual "New Game +".  Nothing got carried over, but enemy stats increased.  The thing that made this humanly possible in VP2 is that the way the game's battle system was designed, you could defeat an enemy far, far beyond your statistical capabilities through skill, careful movement, and planning.

Anyway though, I'm now scared to think of a Lunatic version Touhou Labyrinth D:

MysTeariousYukari

  • Nomnomnom~
  • Hooray~
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #607 on: March 04, 2010, 03:45:20 PM »
Garlyle, remember my idea? After Lunatic their is Extra and Phantasm >:D Easy, Normal, Hard, Very Hard(Lunatic), Even Harder(Extra), Way to Hard(Phantasm) >:D

But for Labyrinth itself
Spoiler:
I beat Serpent of Chaos after taking a break from the game.

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #608 on: March 04, 2010, 03:48:50 PM »
Came back and explored 26F. Or at least, the top left corner. Darn
Spoiler:
Shikieiki
. MASTER SPAAAARK deals 2m damage, which is 1/7th of her HP, but even if I get 3 or 4 full power sparks, Last Judgement is a 0hko that's constantly whittling down my party >:
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

MysTeariousYukari

  • Nomnomnom~
  • Hooray~
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #609 on: March 04, 2010, 03:55:08 PM »
NeoMargatroid, that fight is simple, you just need to make her die before you die. You shouldn't be surviving Last Judgement with anyone other then the HP Tank.

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #610 on: March 04, 2010, 06:54:38 PM »
NeoMargatroid, that fight is simple, you just need to make her die before you die. You shouldn't be surviving Last Judgement with anyone other then the HP Tank.
Makes me want to pump some HP skill points into that girl and use her juuust for this fight.

Anyway, is it just me, or do half of the Plus-Disk characters not have sound effects with their special attacks? I mean, is that fixed when they become player characters?
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

MysTeariousYukari

  • Nomnomnom~
  • Hooray~
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #611 on: March 04, 2010, 07:36:09 PM »
Anyway, is it just me, or do half of the Plus-Disk characters not have sound effects with their special attacks? I mean, is that fixed when they become player characters?

It's them when you fight them. When you use them they have Sound Effects for moves. it might be a slight error in the code of the move or sumthin.

E-Nazrin

  • .... what're you looking at?
  • fuwafuwa pachipachi
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #612 on: March 04, 2010, 08:01:08 PM »
I'm pretty sure
Spoiler:
CAUTION! CAUTION!
had appropriate SFX, but aside from that, yeah, sometimes those are omitted.
There was something here once. Wonder what...

Maiden Synnae ミ☆

  • Wizard Maiden
  • ★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #613 on: March 05, 2010, 02:17:12 AM »
Massive Kedama = PURE MANLINESS.

Sweetness and love~ ♥

MysTeariousYukari

  • Nomnomnom~
  • Hooray~
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #614 on: March 05, 2010, 04:14:58 AM »
I just noticed something, something AWESOME!
Spoiler:
In th Labyrinth version 2.06, if you turn off Spell Animation, some spell effects are gone. Specifically, Flandre doesn't suffer damage from Starbow Break, and her Laevatein doesn't affect party member turn gauges, Utsuho's 2nd Spell no longer gives her a MAG Buff or DEF/MND Debuff, and the big one I noticed, Rinnosuke does not lose TP from his Buff! You can use his buff as much as you please and get all the good effects, without the TP downside. Turning off spell animation kills off 1 of Flandres problems, making her even better!

Woohoo! :D :D :D

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #615 on: March 05, 2010, 08:37:28 AM »
That's probably one of the 2.06 glitches. 
Spoiler:
Flandre
without the secondary effects on her spells is probably broken. 
Spoiler:
Rinnosuke
definitely is (lol 100% ATK/MAG/DEF/MND party buff with no downsides except big delay).

Rikter

  • VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
  • AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #616 on: March 05, 2010, 05:43:34 PM »
So level 60 is the reccomended level for the Trio if you use the Plus Disc apparently...

Guess I have some Grinding to do...

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #617 on: March 05, 2010, 07:37:00 PM »
So level 60 is the reccomended level for the Trio if you use the Plus Disc apparently...

Guess I have some Grinding to do...

Not sure where you got that idea from, I just did it at Reimu 51.

Rikter

  • VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
  • AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #618 on: March 05, 2010, 08:28:52 PM »
Japaneese Wiki listed them with a seperate Level reccomendation for Plus Disk.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #619 on: March 05, 2010, 08:34:18 PM »
I don't think anybody here has played non-plus disk.

Maybe they got a buff in 2.06? I dunno.

level 60 sounds like a high enough level to beat them while taking a couple astrological entombings >=P.

E-Nazrin

  • .... what're you looking at?
  • fuwafuwa pachipachi
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #620 on: March 05, 2010, 08:56:23 PM »
Without relying as much on luck, basically? :V

I like to mix up grinding and attempts at progress; spend a run of TP until someone leaves/dies to level, then come back and give the trio another shot. They're beatable at earlier points if you exploit their weaknesses and know how their AI works.
There was something here once. Wonder what...

Rikter

  • VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
  • AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #621 on: March 05, 2010, 09:27:58 PM »
Regaardless I doubt I have much of a chance at winning when almost everyone but reimu is level 46-ish.

Garlyle

  • I can't brain today
  • I have the dumb
    • Tormod Plays Games
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #622 on: March 06, 2010, 01:54:01 AM »
Regaardless I doubt I have much of a chance at winning when almost everyone but reimu is level 46-ish.
No, you probably do.  The easiest test is this:

Spoiler:
Put Tenshi, Ran, Reimu, Patchy as your front line.
Cast Great Hakurei Barrier and Eighty Million Holy Boards
If you're still taking damage from anything not named "Galaxy In A Pot", you're probably not strong enough.
On the other hand, if you see a string of 0s, you're good.  I was able to beat them at that level

Rikter

  • VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
  • AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #623 on: March 06, 2010, 01:57:57 AM »
I have problems keeping the buffs up when I use that Method seeing as I don't want to do a massive stall war.

E-Nazrin

  • .... what're you looking at?
  • fuwafuwa pachipachi
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #624 on: March 06, 2010, 02:07:03 AM »
Ironically, I LIKE massive stall wars. Especially when I can't tell how close my opponent is to dying so that I can stop having it be a massive stall war.

And maintaining proper buffs is very important for later boss battles. Hakurei Barrier can make the difference between getting 60% of your HP torn off vs. losing 20%. Or more, in Garyle's example (which HAS occurred for me). Buffs is damn important. As are debuffs, when that's an option - but the Trio AI apparently doesn't like that, even if they're pretty weak to status effects.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 02:13:04 AM by E-Motion »
There was something here once. Wonder what...

MysTeariousYukari

  • Nomnomnom~
  • Hooray~
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #625 on: March 06, 2010, 02:09:39 AM »
You could replace the 1st character Garlyle mentioned with someone like Remilia or Marisa, anyone with good MND and good DEF is preferable, and they would of course offer some dps. Only a grand total of 3 or 4 moves should hit harder then 0, they are
Spoiler:
Shadowstitch, Galaxy in a Pot, Hourai Barrage and Astronomical Entombing. Shadowstitch because it seems to be DEF based, same goes for Galaxy in a Pot. Hourai Barrage(Kaguya) and Astronomical Entombing(Eirin) are just extremely freaking powerful, even Patchy with 3000 MND and a 80%-100% DEF/MND Buff dies from Entombing, but that same Patchy is other wise invincible to their MND based attacks.

That is actually one of the games harder, if not, hardest fights, so don't feel bad for losing to it.

Kanako Yasaka

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #626 on: March 06, 2010, 09:18:00 PM »
Spoiler:
Flame Tyrant was such a joke.

Reimu at level 213. I have a loooooooooooooooooooong way to go.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #627 on: March 07, 2010, 10:39:10 AM »
Spoiler:
Flame Tyrant was such a joke.

Reimu at level 213. I have a loooooooooooooooooooong way to go.

I found that boss quite difficult.. Of course I never bothered to try par. That might have helped.

On a personal note, I just beat floor 13 on my 2nd 2nd playthru now yay. God I hate that floor. The trash sucks (well those stupid swordfish mostly, but they are so damn common), the monster encounter rate is in OVERDRIVE (fight eveyr 5 steps, yay!), the stupid arbitrary number "binary" basically forces you to use a guide, because the clues aren't obtainable using logic rather than pure guesswork and luck, not to mention the clues, added together, really don't tell you much about the entire floor rather than a couple treasure areas and the next floor.

I think it's my least fave floor in the game, at least 7 can be done easily enough with a decent memory, and 10-12 has good music, variety of enemies, as well as a variety of battle music, and an epic boss fight.

Gah floor 13 stinks. And afterwards, it marks the beginning of fun yet difficult trash (sword fish aren't fun. Being OHKO randomly before anybody but chen who can't kill them herself anyway doesn't count).

trancehime

  • 不聖女
  • *
  • 2017年~ 茨心R (希望)
    • himegimi
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #628 on: March 07, 2010, 11:23:15 AM »
Makes me want to pump some HP skill points into that girl and use her juuust for this fight.

Later on you are going to have to pump HP skill points into everyone anyway, since you won't be able to survive attacks later on as only a handful of decent offensive characters have good DEF/MND to complement it, so you'll need to offset it with mucho HP. Even with over 6000 levels in HP, people like Patchy can still get 1 to 3HKOed by the 30F bosses.

元素召唤 || pad & msl news translator robit
twitter xx motk resident whale

Serela

  • Moon Tiara Magic
  • VIA PIZZA SLINGING
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #629 on: March 07, 2010, 03:14:25 PM »
Later on you are going to have to pump HP skill points into everyone anyway, since you won't be able to survive attacks later on as only a handful of decent offensive characters have good DEF/MND to complement it, so you'll need to offset it with mucho HP. Even with over 6000 levels in HP, people like Patchy can still get 1 to 3HKOed by the 30F bosses.
I meant, that girl had 0 levels and skp in anything because I've never used her before in this play. I did end up pumping her HP and leveling her up just for this fight though, and massively rearranged equipment so my best characters for this fight (
Spoiler:
Komachi, Renko, Reimu, Yuugi, Flandre
) couldn't be 0hkoed.

Now I'm exploring 27F when I'm bored. It's really tedious, especially since the random fights actually kill me sometimes >:

Also, Patchy's the most frail character in the game, and with her pathetic HP stat, it doesn't matter how much of a % bonus you put in it ^^;
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore