Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3 (Read 178263 times)

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #570 on:** March 03, 2010, 07:39:09 PM »

True Final Boss has a bit under 2 Billion HP

when you fight it for the 100th time... apperently...

Pesco · « **Reply #571 on:** March 03, 2010, 07:41:00 PM »

Quote from: Ghaleon on March 03, 2010, 07:28:22 PM

Shizuha isn't a stage boss. I was referring to stage bosses only >=P. I mean I can understand and wouldn't mind the mid-boss only characters to show up either, but the game doesn't feature a single one. So your example doesn't really prove much IMO. No kisume, no eosd stage 2 fairy, no lily white, no tewi (not that we ca *shot*), >=P.

Where's dem Prismrivers huh? And

Spoiler:

Ghaleon · « **Reply #572 on:** March 03, 2010, 07:41:29 PM »

Quote from: MystearicaUtsuho on March 03, 2010, 07:39:09 PM

True Final Boss has a bit under 2 Billion HP when you fight it for the 100th time... apperently...

Really? I'd expect more. Something along the lines of 80millionishX100..

Quote from: Inaba Tewi on Today at 07:41:00 pm

Quote

Where's dem Prismrivers huh?

I ddin't say SA was the only TH with missing bosses, I just hinted how it had the most. As for the prismrivers, I can understand them not being in personally though. I mean how would you design them? It's really hard to give them definitive stats and spells as individuals, and it'd just be wrong to slap all 3 of them into 1 character.

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #573 on:** March 03, 2010, 07:49:04 PM »

Ok, maybe just under 20 Billion, but I remember the bigest digits being sumthing like a 173, and a string of numbers after that, minimum around 10 digits(Billion) but possibly more... :ohdear:

Axel Ryman · « **Reply #574 on:** March 03, 2010, 08:02:32 PM »

Quote from: Ghaleon on March 03, 2010, 07:41:29 PM

I ddin't say SA was the only TH with missing bosses, I just hinted how it had the most. As for the prismrivers, I can understand them not being in personally though. I mean how would you design them? It's really hard to give them definitive stats and spells as individuals, and it'd just be wrong to slap all 3 of them into 1 character.

I actually thought of a way, and it'd make them somewhat unique. Make them 3 separate characters with 3-4 spell cards each. 1 would be their own solo attack, 2nd can be a combo attack(Lunasa-Merlin, Lunasa-Lyrica, and Lyrica-Merlin), 3rd can be another combo attack(If Lunasa-Merlin is the 2nd one, Lunasa-Lyrica is the 3rd one). The last one is a triple combo. Of course to be able to use them, they have to be out on the frontlines.

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #575 on:** March 03, 2010, 10:35:42 PM »

The encounters on 30F seem... off. At this very moment I have encountered:

Spoiler:

Are those encounters really random?

Ghaleon · « **Reply #576 on:** March 03, 2010, 11:25:24 PM »

Quote from: MystearicaUtsuho on March 03, 2010, 10:35:42 PM

The encounters on 30F seem... off. At this very moment I have encountered:
Spoiler:
3 Flandre's, 3 Youmu's, 1 Yuyuko, 1 Cirno, 1 Tenshi, 2 Trio's. This morning I also found 3 Flandre's and 4 Youmu's.

Are those encounters really random?

Yeah I get some much more often than others myself. Be grateful you don't get chen alot, she's insane.

Quote

I actually thought of a way, and it'd make them somewhat unique. Make them 3 separate characters with 3-4 spell cards each. 1 would be their own solo attack, 2nd can be a combo attack(Lunasa-Merlin, Lunasa-Lyrica, and Lyrica-Merlin), 3rd can be another combo attack(If Lunasa-Merlin is the 2nd one, Lunasa-Lyrica is the 3rd one). The last one is a triple combo. Of course to be able to use them, they have to be out on the frontlines.

quite a few problems with that.

First, you pretty much force the player into gimping themselves by taking such characters without forcing them to take all of them pretty much. Or else they'll have as poor a spell selection as Remi, who makes up for it by her great stats and great buff. If they have great stats and great buffs, then their combo attacks will either be op, or redundant to their solo moves.

I could go on but thats the important one. The game as a whole isn't really made for team-based characters, so you can't just slap one in with it being unbalanced. They'd work out ifne like that if there were other similar teamwork type deals, but the closest thing you got is

Spoiler:

spell, which itself is a waste of 100 sp unless you are using all 3 characters, in which case it's pretty much meh. But she has 4 other spells to go with it, along with amazing stats.

Axel Ryman · « **Reply #577 on:** March 04, 2010, 12:05:39 AM »

Quote from: Ghaleon on March 03, 2010, 11:25:24 PM

quite a few problems with that.

First, you pretty much force the player into gimping themselves by taking such characters without forcing them to take all of them pretty much. Or else they'll have as poor a spell selection as Remi, who makes up for it by her great stats and great buff. If they have great stats and great buffs, then their combo attacks will either be op, or redundant to their solo moves.

I could go on but thats the important one. The game as a whole isn't really made for team-based characters, so you can't just slap one in with it being unbalanced. They'd work out ifne like that if there were other similar teamwork type deals, but the closest thing you got is
Spoiler:
Yukari's shikigami
spell, which itself is a waste of 100 sp unless you are using all 3 characters, in which case it's pretty much meh. But she has 4 other spells to go with it, along with amazing stats.

How about having something a bit similar like

Spoiler:

spell? Something like..well I'm gonna just be a bit random with this, but hopefully you understand.

Merlin is a Debuff type character, and Lyrica is an Attack type character. Their dual attack can be used separately. For Lyrica, its an attack, and for Merlin, its a debuff. If both are in the party when used, both of their Active Gauge's are reduced down to a certain point(30% after use, for example), regardless of how high the Gauge is filled(If lower than 30%, then no change is made), and the SP cost is used from both of them. If both are in the active party at the time it is used, the Spell is both an Attack and Debuff type spell. Lunasa would be a Tank type(possibly) with the ability to buff. The Triple Team attack would be similar to a dual attack only reducing the gauge to 0%, dealing damage to the enemy and debuffing them, and also buffing your party. If Merlin uses alone, its mainly a debuff(A bit of a heavy one), if Lyrica its mainly an attack, and if Lunasa uses it alone its just a buff. For all dual-spells and the trio one, the attack/buff/debuff rates are increased.

This isn't to say their Solo skill would mainly be Attack-Buff-Debuff only either. Could be a mixture of both like other skills are. If you think about it though, the above makes it possible for the characters to be used both separately and as a team.

Garlyle · « **Reply #578 on:** March 04, 2010, 12:38:10 AM »

Ah, all this whining about "There's too many characters missing"...

...maybe I'll go design an RPG with everyone... :3

...Also you forgot that Yuugi is from SA. And she made it in too. But yeah, I'm not surprised at a slight leaning towards the earlier windows games characters - I've only run into one fangame that didn't do this (Touhou Pocket Wars only has Sakuya from EoSD, at least in the version I'm playing, and Sakuya did come back for 7-9, so...)

Ghaleon · « **Reply #579 on:** March 04, 2010, 12:56:29 AM »

Quote from: Garlyle on March 04, 2010, 12:38:10 AM

...maybe I'll go design an RPG with everyone... :3

how about I design it, you can make it =).
seriously, I'd love to take a shot at making touhou labyrinth even better.

I always forget yuugi for some reason, derp.

Axel Ryman · « **Reply #580 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:02:08 AM »

Quote from: Ghaleon on March 04, 2010, 12:56:29 AM

how about I design it, you can make it =).
seriously, I'd love to take a shot at making touhou labyrinth even better.

I always forget yuugi for some reason, derp.

I can help design pl0x?

Garlyle · « **Reply #581 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:09:00 AM »

>_> Well, I might have started working on this like two whole Labyrinth of Touhou topics ago when the frustration of "There's no x!" started getting to me.

Not that I'm designing it to be a straight up clone of Labyrinth, but... I've got some fun stuff I can do beyond that, and in many ways it is similar to Labyrinth (It's a single-dungeon crawler, though set up fairly differently from Labyrinth; party is large, but it's in the sense that it'll be up to six characters in the active party at once - of a playable cast of roughly 90...)

...But if people want to work with me on this kind of thing (And are preferrably used to RPG Maker in at least some respect) I'd love that.

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #582 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:10:25 AM »

So you 2, and possibly Axel, are considering a Touhou fangame that has everyone? I'll toss in my 2-cents and say that I am definately in agreement with this idea. But 1 question, does "everyone" mean everyone in the Windows games, or does it mean everyone in Windows and PC-98?

Garlyle · « **Reply #583 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:12:52 AM »

Quote from: MystearicaUtsuho on March 04, 2010, 01:10:25 AM

So you 2, and possibly Axel, are considering a Touhou fangame that has everyone? I'll toss in my 2-cents and say that I am definately in agreement with this idea. But 1 question, does "everyone" mean everyone in the Windows games, or does it mean everyone in Windows and PC-98?

The way mine is designed... yeah, it means the PC-98 cast too. A few of the characters are boss-only though or NPCs (Mostly HRtP cast though). Even some of the novel/manga characters are present too, though not necessarily in a playable situation, but rather some form of support role (Akyu saving your game, etc.)

Ghaleon · « **Reply #584 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:17:34 AM »

Quote from: Garlyle on March 04, 2010, 01:09:00 AM

>_> Well, I might have started working on this like two whole Labyrinth of Touhou topics ago when the frustration of "There's no x!" started getting to me.

Not that I'm designing it to be a straight up clone of Labyrinth, but... I've got some fun stuff I can do beyond that, and in many ways it is similar to Labyrinth (It's a single-dungeon crawler, though set up fairly differently from Labyrinth; party is large, but it's in the sense that it'll be up to six characters in the active party at once - of a playable cast of roughly 90...)

...But if people want to work with me on this kind of thing (And are preferrably used to RPG Maker in at least some respect) I'd love that.

Not sure why people lamenting the lack of a character gets at you. It's not a game-breaking issue, I just find it unfortunate that some characters are missing when the game has so many as is. Hardly breaks the game though.

As for design, I'm not being serious. I'd love to design it, but I hardly have the time or motivation to actually make what I design yet, so I really woudln't be much help.

6 character parties is cool though. If you ever do make this game. For the love of god have difficulty settings please. Even if it's just a couple of sliders that are multipliers to enemy hp/damage/etc. There are *WAY* too many rpgs out there that aren't as fun as they could be because their difficulty isn't right.

Garlyle · « **Reply #585 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:19:49 AM »

Quote from: Ghaleon on March 04, 2010, 01:17:34 AM

Not sure why people lamenting the lack of a character gets at you. It's not a game-breaking issue, I just find it unfortunate that some characters are missing when the game has so many as is. Hardly breaks the game though.

As for design, I'm not being serious. I'd love to design it, but I hardly have the time or motivation to actually make what I design yet, so I really woudln't be much help.

6 character parties is cool though. If you ever do make this game. For the love of god have difficulty settings please. Even if it's just a couple of sliders that are multipliers to enemy hp/damage/etc. There are *WAY* too many rpgs out there that aren't as fun as they could be because their difficulty isn't right.

Duly noted, and it will be done 8D

But yeah. It didn't bother me too much, until I started considering "Okay, let's just suppose I could set things up however I wanted. ...Well, if I put in this character, they could do something like this, and this character could do this..." and I started to come up with a bunch of neat mechanics and stuff that let me actually do unusual things, so I ran with it 8D

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #586 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:32:06 AM »

On topic of the Difficulty, we could go with the 4 Touhou Difficulties, and add Extra and Phantasm as 5th and 6th Difficulties... and maybe even more

You could also make it so you could upgrade Spell Cards, to some extent. So things like how a thLabyrinth char might have say... "1.5((ATK x 2) - (T.DEF/2))" and if you had that as a formula, it could be boosted in power, eventually reaching sumthin like "2((ATK x3) - (T.DEF/3)" or sumthin. This idea is mainly cause some thLabyrinth chars are good but their spells are poor. Remi's Spear being an example, she has very good ATK, but Spear has a poor formula compared to, say, Meiling's Mountain Breaker, and both mentioned moves have the same/similar delay.

As is right now, I won't be able to help work on the game, but I could definatly chime in with ideas, heck I got another one, could Mima be a playable, rather then Boss/NPC?

Garlyle · « **Reply #587 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:40:46 AM »

You know what? I'm gonna throw a topic about this over in Rika's Garage, before we spam the heck out of this topic XD I'll edit a topic link in once I set it up XD

Ghaleon · « **Reply #588 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:49:19 AM »

Game design is such a cool idea. I wish it was a reliable career choice. Alas it's nearly impossible to be taken seriously as a game designer these days without experience on your resume.

But anyway it's such a beautiful concept to me. I mean alot of game designers (wannabes mostly, but some actual designers too) have little interest aside from the art, level design, story, etc. Very few have interest in the technical side of things. But that's frankly what makes it so attractive IMO.

For example, I want rpgs to have difficulty sliders. Imagine making it so that you increased the difficulty simply by doubling the hp of every enemy and boss. You need to consider though that doing so will not double the difficulty neccesarily. In most cases it will be less than doubly difficult, and in some cases, it will be far more than double. For example, bosses with a "I'm at 20% or less health now, you must kill me before my next move or I insta-gib your entire party!" feature, would suddenly enter the realm of impossible with a doubling of hp assuming your level is otherwise appropriate. Meanwhile you would hardly notice the difference on bosses like china.

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #589 on:** March 04, 2010, 01:54:06 AM »

Similarly, difficulty will need to affect all the stats, not just HP, ATK and MAG. But yeah, Rika's Garage would be better to have a topic about a new touhou fangame.

Garlyle · « **Reply #590 on:** March 04, 2010, 02:05:07 AM »

Here we go: Wish Under Celestial Star

After all the wonderful technical little things that this game taught me about game design I'm very curious to get input and actually apply the things I've learned over the years towards creating a proper game.

Axel Ryman · « **Reply #591 on:** March 04, 2010, 02:06:06 AM »

Quote from: Ghaleon on March 04, 2010, 01:49:19 AM

For example, I want rpgs to have difficulty sliders. Imagine making it so that you increased the difficulty simply by doubling the hp of every enemy and boss.

To be honest, that's one of the things I hate about some games with multiple difficulties. I understand trying to make the game difficult, but keep the same AI and just doubling certain stats doesn't make the game that much harder. Changing AI patterns and movesets however would be a better idea, one reason why I like the Touhou games. Higher difficulties usually mean a change to their original attacks that make it harder, or even having a new spellcard to face. Granted on an RPG it would be a bit different, giving them a new set of moves specifically towards higher difficulties wouldn't be bad, but actually give the difficulty meaning.

Just me 2 cents really :x As for the game, I'd actually help but I have no experience with RPG Maker.

Milkyway64 · « **Reply #592 on:** March 04, 2010, 03:37:49 AM »

'Kay. So I can't seem to get my sound card to cooperate with me in doing a Let's Play. I can either get Game audio, mic audio, but not both. So until I get this figured out I'll be doing text LP's, commentary annotated on top of the vid.

I plan on restarting this very soon. Now let's see if I'm committed enough to do this regularly.

Axel Ryman · « **Reply #593 on:** March 04, 2010, 03:38:39 AM »

I've had this problem before. You'll have to record the video first and do audio commentary afterwards.

Milkyway64 · « **Reply #594 on:** March 04, 2010, 03:44:22 AM »

Quote from: Axel Ryman on March 04, 2010, 03:38:39 AM

I've had this problem before. You'll have to record the video first and do audio commentary afterwards.

I just don't like that idea. If I'm going to commentate by voice, I'd like it to be live. Doing it after by text has a similar problem, but would be easier for me to pull off.

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #595 on:** March 04, 2010, 03:50:45 AM »

I know of a site that lets you stream live and talk while streaming. It's www.justin.tv, but shouldn't this problem be in the Tech help section?

Milkyway64 · « **Reply #596 on:** March 04, 2010, 04:01:05 AM »

Quote from: MystearicaUtsuho on March 04, 2010, 03:50:45 AM

I know of a site that lets you stream live and talk while streaming. It's www.justin.tv, but shouldn't this problem be in the Tech help section?

Not really, because it's not a problem with a Touhou game, but rather my own incompetence. Labyrinth will be the first game of hopefully many to be LP'd. On top of that, it's not even a problem. I have a temporary solution worked out and if I so wanted, could begin right this very second.

As for Justin.tv, that would all depend on if one could save each live session to later be linked to. I never have used the site before, so I'm clueless there.

Barrakketh · « **Reply #597 on:** March 04, 2010, 04:24:53 AM »

Quote from: Milkyway64 on March 04, 2010, 04:01:05 AM

Not really, because it's not a problem with a Touhou game, but rather my own incompetence. Labyrinth will be the first game of hopefully many to be LP'd. On top of that, it's not even a problem. I have a temporary solution worked out and if I so wanted, could begin right this very second.

What, your sound card is the problem or the recording app you're trying to use is being uncooperative?

I don't know what your temporary solution is, but I would use Fraps for video + game sound and another program of your choice for voice, then combine them at the editing stage so you have control over the volume and don't have one being excessively louder than the other. Alternatively you could skip combining them and mux the two audio files separately into the container after you've encoded them, but that means you could only hear one at a time.

Milkyway64 · « **Reply #598 on:** March 04, 2010, 04:37:41 AM »

Quote from: Barrakketh on March 04, 2010, 04:24:53 AM

What, your sound card is the problem or the recording app you're trying to use is being uncooperative?

I don't know what your temporary solution is, but I would use Fraps for video + game sound and another program of your choice for voice, then combine them at the editing stage so you have control over the volume and don't have one being excessively louder than the other. Alternatively you could skip combining them and mux the two audio files separately into the container after you've encoded them, but that means you could only hear one at a time.

Sound card. That was the original plan, Snagit for vid + game sound while using Audacity for voice. However, the sound card for some reason doesn't like from only one output source, so Audacity (and other programs I'm sure) will pick up both mic and the stereo mix while greying out the my dropdown to select only one of them. Game sound drowns voice out completely, so that can't work.

The solution I had was text commentary in annotations until I figure this stuff out, whatever the problem may be. (I THINK the drivers are up to date. I updated them yesterday manually since auto update wasn't doing anything.)

Ghaleon · « **Reply #599 on:** March 04, 2010, 05:26:45 AM »

Quote from: Axel Ryman on March 04, 2010, 02:06:06 AM

To be honest, that's one of the things I hate about some games with multiple difficulties. I understand trying to make the game difficult, but keep the same AI and just doubling certain stats doesn't make the game that much harder. Changing AI patterns and movesets however would be a better idea, one reason why I like the Touhou games. Higher difficulties usually mean a change to their original attacks that make it harder, or even having a new spellcard to face. Granted on an RPG it would be a bit different, giving them a new set of moves specifically towards higher difficulties wouldn't be bad, but actually give the difficulty meaning.

Just me 2 cents really :x As for the game, I'd actually help but I have no experience with RPG Maker.

I realize that smarter ai is often the most rewarding way to increase difficulty, but that is often the most difficult and time consuming. It probably be easier in an rpg, but you should consider a smart ai in an rpg would just plain suck. How long would it take for you to throw your monitor out the window if enemies always picked on your squishies, or if they just spammed their best moves, etc.

Regardless of stats being increased being a "cheap" way to increase difficulty options, it's still an option. Nobody forces you to do it, and the amount of effort to actually program that into a game is so trivial it's almost stupid not to do it IMO.

If you have the time to make multiple ai for difficulties, you might as well have the option to change stats too.