Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3

[yoshicookiezeus]

In each elemental form, the boss is weak to the opposite element - so focus on bringing along characters with strong elemental nukes

Opposite elements? I guess I shouldn't be surprised... So which element should be used against which form?

Also F17 seems to be great for grinding now that I can actually take out the enemies before they can attack me (apart from those shield dolls, but those usually go for the people in front who can take the hits). Just a pity the drops are so scarce...

[Garlyle]

Opposite elements? I guess I shouldn't be surprised... So which element should be used against which form?

Also F17 seems to be great for grinding now that I can actually take out the enemies before they can attack me (apart from those shield dolls, but those usually go for the people in front who can take the hits). Just a pity the drops are so scarce...

FIR <-> CLD
NTR <-> WND
MYS <-> SPI

You can tell which form is which by the color, but yeah, it's set up just like on the elemental resistance table.  Heck, I think he goes through the elements in that exact order.

[Rikter]

...Why am I the only person who has to deal with consecutive Flowing Hellfires on Tam's Foe...

[yoshicookiezeus]

Do you make sure to always have four people switched in when it attacks? I remember someone telling me that if it tries to attack an empty slot and thus has to change to another one, that counts as one of its three attacks before it unleashes another Flowing Hellfire.

Though it does seem that you can simply get unlucky as well, as I have had one of the later Foes randomly use two in a row (one-hit-KOing poor Patchy whom I had just switched in)...

[Serela]

About to start tackling the combination-based part of exploring 24F, but I'm also planning out a sub-par challenge team for a NG+ Run.

The characters I've decided to ban from my choosing for this run is

Spoiler:

Marisa, Patchouli, Chen, Meiling, Alice, Yuugi, Komachi, Suwako, Ran, Tenshi
and everyone on the last two pages EXCEPT Mokou, Orin, Yuyuko, and POSSIBLY not ban Maribel(not enough SP to really use self-buff until the endgame) and Keine(Although her party ATK/MAG buffs...)

And then, I'm pretty darn sure I'll be using Wriggle, Sakuya,  Cirno, and Rumia. Also likely Remi as well, with DEF/MND on her level ups, since she's the only person I haven't banned that could be a decent choice for 1st slot tank. And I really mean only. And, well, Reimu is so important I'm really not going to NOT use her unless I picked up some game-breaker instead (Like

Spoiler:

Renko!

)

That makes 6 people, now I need to choose 6 more. Hmm... Wriggle and Sakuya will have defensively-oriented level ups in a style I have not chosen yet, so they will be my second slot tanks. Wriggle still has her PSN damage without ATK anyway, and she's got great resistances. I'll need a healer... should I pick Minoriko or Sanae for this, though? Hmm.

Keine (Although not planning on using her cuz she seems too good for this kind of party setup) would also be a great second slot tank with defensively oriented level-ups, or Eirin. Oh, and I want to use Iku because Rumia can cure PAR with her Demarcation, and Iku can also use her ATK/MAG buff on people with high PAR resistance without fear as well.


Well, I guess I've got Reimu, Remilia, Rumia, Sakuya, Cirno, Wriggle, Iku, and either Minoriko or Sanae. That makes 8 people. The other four need to be DAMAGE DEALERS. I've got MAG damage in Rumia and if I don't give Iku defensive stats, but that isn't much damage from either.

ATK Damage Dealers:
Youmu
Aya(SPD buff but ehh damage, and Sakuya can already SPD buff...)

Spoiler:

Nitori(50% SPD/DEF/MND self-buff but if I use 2.06 for much stronger Megawatt is she too much? Then again, still frail and Youmu is the only other good ATK damage here...)
Orin(Ehh damage against bosses, don't really want)

MAG Damage Dealers:(Other then Rumia/Iku already have)

Spoiler:

Mokou
Reisen(eeew)
Yuyuko(only SPI is augh and her SP costs will be impossible till endgame)
Maribel(Is she too much? She can't really self-buff and do anything afterwards for an awful long time anyway, and my damage output will be bad at this rate anyway...)

Any thoughts on which damage dealers and healer I should pick, or some other opinion?

[Rikter]

Do you make sure to always have four people switched in when it attacks? I remember someone telling me that if it tries to attack an empty slot and thus has to change to another one, that counts as one of its three attacks before it unleashes another Flowing Hellfire.

...This would explain why I get it constantly if thats how it works...

Guess i'll grind a bit and make a party with more members who can survive it.

And how is Reimu's Healing Calculated?

[Barrakketh]

...This would explain why I get it constantly if thats how it works...

I think if a slot is empty it's supposed to attack the person in the next available slot, moving to the right.

And how is Reimu's Healing Calculated?

MAG * 0.66

[Rikter]

Okay guess I'll just grind and overbuff Raymoo's mind with SKP to ensure I can kill that thing.

[Barrakketh]

Okay guess I'll just grind and overbuff Raymoo's mind with SKP to ensure I can kill that thing.

FWIW my Reimu was only healing for about 650 during that fight.  Aki for single target healing, Reimu to top everyone off before the Flowing Hellfire.  I always left Meiling, Remi, and Yuugi out during the Flowing Hellfire.  Since one extra character always died at the start of the fight I used that empty slot to make sure no one else other than those three has to take the hit.

[Pesco]

You can leave a back slot empty for nobody in there to get hurt. Never tried it myself though.

[Rikter]

I'm so annoyed at this point i'm just going to Grind so I don't end up dealing with LOL FLOWAN HELLFIYA! Besides I like never spend Skill Points unless I get stuck.

[Pesco]

Not spending SKP is probably why you're struggling

[Garlyle]

Not spending SKP is probably why you're struggling

This.  The fact is that the farther you get, the more the lack of skill points is affecting your stats because the lower the levels are.  Each skill point level is a 3% bonus - adding 10 levels to a stat is the same as permanently equipping a +30% stat accessory.

[Barrakketh]

What level should I be before trying to take down

Spoiler:

Suwako

and

Spoiler:

Nitori

?

I haven't explored the 9th floor yet and I imagine the latter will be manageable by then (Reimu is now 34), but I had run into the former after saving to see if I had gotten all the events with Cirno to activate her.  That was really hard and I know I wouldn't have won that, but then Mishaguji-sama ended up out-damaging Flowing Hellfire and I was all

This.  The fact is that the farther you get, the more the lack of skill points is affecting your stats because the lower the levels are.  Each skill point level is a 3% bonus - adding 10 levels to a stat is the same as permanently equipping a +30% stat accessory.

I've added a couple of levels in these stats since fighting Tam's Foe, but this should give you a rough idea of where I spent my points on some of the more important characters for that fight:





Just for comparison (and keep in mind equipment makes a big difference if you've been neglecting it), here's Reimu 7 levels ago:



I've spread the love around instead of focusing on my core group, but the mainstays like Meiling generally get more points put into them.

[Garlyle]

Sounds and looks like you're getting the hang of this 8D

The first of those two bosses, I was able to take down when I first fought her - which was totally by accident, on F8, without even realising I was about to fight her!  She's got a heck of a lot more HP than most bosses at that point, but that's about it - I didn't find her too dangerous otherwise.  If you've fully explored 8F, taking her down should be doable.

The second one, who is up on F9, should be saved until you've completed your exploration of F9 at least.  She's got a huge amount of damage output and a self-buff that adds a stupid amount of speed, which makes things really difficult.  Once you clear F9 though you should be able to take her on, if not just by outdamaging her before she roadrollers you.

Also beating the two of them allows a character on F8 to join you, but you need to take down a stronger version of Tam's Foe first - wait until you're at least someway into the gigantic 10F puzzle before going for her.



...Also, on my end, I was able to finish recruiting all of the Normal Disk characters, except for the F16 and F18 bosses.  I fcuking love the last two I got.

[yoshicookiezeus]

Seems like I still need to grind a bit before I can take down the F18 boss... I managed to destroy three of his elemental forms this time, but around that point Meiling went down and with her my last tank and healer... It's a pity both Minoriko and

Spoiler:

Sanae

are so fragile, as managing to keep them alive until he starts changing forms would be very useful. Perhaps I should try switching one of them for

Spoiler:

Eirin

?

Though it would seem like

Spoiler:

Tenshi

is fairly useless in that fight, for once. Sure, most attacks won't harm her at all once she gets her buff up, but that doesn't help when Ratsetu Fist or whatever it's called rips straight through her defences and destroys her in one hit.

[Barrakketh]

I've been contemplating grinding a little bit on the 7th floor.  I have three Forbidden Tablets (two of which are on Patchy, the other on Reimu) but they would be a nice upgrade for Marisa and my casters in general but if the very rough translation on the Japanese wiki is correct they have a very low drop rate.  Since it's not like it's urgent and I may get better caster drops on later floors anyway I'll be putting that off.  Items with +Recovery on them make me happy.

[Rikter]

Hmm well I guess how i'm distributing my SKP could be the reason why i'm not doing so well. Wasn't aware Skill Points where a 3% boost. I sinked quite a bit into AP just so I could Grind more.

I'm still going to grind more simply because I just realized that more of my characters are lower leveled than I thought. But I guess i'll try a once more with items moved around.

[Barrakketh]

Sounds and looks like you're getting the hang of this 8D

The first of those two bosses, I was able to take down when I first fought her - which was totally by accident, on F8, without even realising I was about to fight her!  She's got a heck of a lot more HP than most bosses at that point, but that's about it - I didn't find her too dangerous otherwise.  If you've fully explored 8F, taking her down should be doable.

I didn't quite fully explore 8F (about 2/3rds done).  Just tried her again, beat her with only four characters left: Meiling, Remilia, Rumia (mainly for Demarcation in case too many people got paralyzed again), and Reimu.  A few more levels (Reimu is at 34) would have allowed a few of those characters to live longer since they were within about ~100 HP of surviving the attack.  I lost Yuugi early in the fight to her CLD attack (one hit took her down from full health), the fight would have been a lot shorter if she were alive.

I seem to have crappy luck with landing -SPD and -DEF debuffs (mainly with Cirno and Iku) on enemies.  Paralysis seems to work on bosses much more frequently than those two.  I actually need to level up

Spoiler:

Komachi

.  Since she seems to be a dedicated tank and physically on the weak side is it okay to ignore things other than her HP and SP, maybe getting her affinities so they're at least neutral?

The SP is mainly so she can use Narrow Confines of Avici, like with Meiling I'll eventually want her to get to the point where one focus = one use if I can dig up enough decent tanking equipment that has some +REC on it, though in Meiling's case it was for Colorful Rain.

[Garlyle]

I seem to have crappy luck with landing -SPD and -DEF debuffs (mainly with Cirno and Iku) on enemies.  Paralysis seems to work on bosses much more frequently than those two.  I actually need to level up

Spoiler:

Komachi

.  Since she seems to be a dedicated tank and physically on the weak side is it okay to ignore things other than her HP and SP, maybe getting her affinities so they're at least neutral?

The SP is mainly so she can use Narrow Confines of Avici, like with Meiling I'll eventually want her to get to the point where one focus = one use if I can dig up enough decent tanking equipment that has some +REC on it, though in Meiling's case it was for Colorful Rain.

That's correct.  Komachi especially benefits from points into HP because her growth is so stupidly high already.  SP and Speed are the two things you'd want to put less focus into, maybe a bit into ATK.  SP and Speed are, of course, to make full use of Narrow Confines and her general tanking ability; ATK because she actually has a pretty nice ATK stat as well.  So even though you'll be doing no damage with Narrow Confines becaues it's a crappy formula, she can still fight regular enemies with Ferriage and Scythe that Chooses the Dead - the later of which you can use to pretty reliably DTH enemies that will start popping up soon that are very hard to kill otherwise.

Oh, and affinities really matter for her.  Since her DEF and MND are so terrible, the only real damage reduction she's getting is from elemental resistance.

[Jaimers]

I just reached Mr.

Spoiler:

MANLY, MANLY

Man.

And all I gotta say is: holy shit.
I can't even beat his first form out of

Spoiler:

WTFTHATMANY!?

. :S
Please tell me I don't have to grind for six hours just to beat this guy. 

On a different subject, I still don't have

Spoiler:

Kaguya

. :<

[Garlyle]

On a different subject, I still don't have

Spoiler:

Kaguya

. :<

Do some grinding with 3/4 of the characters required (You should know who to drop) back on 16F?  That's my suggestion.  Yuugi should be the other character for the purpose of nuking Helbelmares.

...Speaking of 16F, finally cleared it! 8D

...WHY IS EVERYTHING ON 17F WAY HARDER THAN

Spoiler:

PORNSTAR

WAS?

EDIT: Found out there's nothing to find on 17F.  Ran ahead to 18F.

Why is everything much more reasonable and gives more EXP on 18F than 17F?

[Rikter]

Yay a complete Equipment Swap replacing

Spoiler:

Iku

for Youmu and small boosts to Youmu and Reimu's Fire Afin and HP and Tam's Foe was suprisingly easy...

[Garlyle]

Yay a complete Equipment Swap replacing

Spoiler:

Iku

for Youmu and small boosts to Youmu and Reimu's Fire Afin and HP and Tam's Foe was suprisingly easy...

It's kinda funny how that works, isn't it?

[Serela]

Reimu Lv230, I remember Final Boss ver.2 exists.

I take out the left and right supports fairly easily, and then get Rankain'd with full HP and 100% DEF/MND buffs and everyone dies.

GOD, how do you survive that thing D:

[Anima Zero]

Reimu Lv230, I remember Final Boss ver.2 exists.

I take out the left and right supports fairly easily, and then get Rankain'd with full HP and 100% DEF/MND buffs and everyone dies.

GOD, how do you survive that thing D:

I believe after top most uses Rankain once (Which should just buff it's MND and MAG some the first time it's used), it'll lose the invincibility it has.  Break out your strongest attacks on it once that happens and ignore the other supports or whatever still lives until the top support dies.  Should happen fairly fast as I don't recall it having a whole lot of HP.

Failing that, I believe the Rankain attack focused on your party is SPI elemental if you want to adjust equips/level up SPI affinity on your characters.

[MysTeariousYukari]

For Final Boss V.2s top Ad-on, it'll use Rankain 3-4 times to buff it's MAG and MND a bit then NUKE you with a different version of Rankain, which will be a Game Over move for a while :ohdear: But if you kill it before the Nuke version of Rankain, your pretty much in the clear... in comparison to the BS power the the nuke Rankain does. Heck, I am going to test that moves power on my good file, the one that beat the hardest bosses the Plus Disk had. :V

[Serela]

Oooh, I thought it was invincible until the "You Die" Rankain so I didn't even bother trying to attack it. Ahahaha, whoops~

Time to take that mofo out. Triple-Concentrated Master Spark for you,

Spoiler:

Grand Tetragrammaton

!

[MysTeariousYukari]

The Nuke version of Rankain is NOT a Game Over attack, it's just really powerful. When it used the attack my front 4 were: Meiling, Remi,

Spoiler:

Yukari

and

Spoiler:

Sikieiki

. All 4 of my chars had about a 70% DEF/MND buff on, it would have been 80%/100%, but we got hit with

Spoiler:

Djinn Storm

. All 4 of those characters took 0 from the Nuke varient of Rankain, proving that it is NOT a Game Over, but instead, a really powerful move.

The Ad-on with Rankain is never truly invicible, if you use moves that completly Ignore DEF or MND, you will hurt it, but until it uses a Buff version of Rankain, all Non-Piercing moves will probly hit for 0.

[Serela]

All 4 of those characters took 0 from the Nuke varient of Rankain, proving that it is NOT a Game Over, but instead, a really powerful move.

This is because you were heavily overleveled, of course! At my level it still deals 20k more damage to Meiling then she has HP. And other then that the fight should be doable (although I haven't even seen third phase yet)

Well, now that darn thing refuses to use Rankain for forever instead of first turn like it has been. I did eventually get it to use it, and found out it doesn't live through triple-concentrate Master Spark, so I just need it to cast it on the first few turns like it used to and this shouldn't be hard.

EDIT:Oh, that thing decided to use Djinn Storm on the first turn this time.

WHY WON'T YOU JUST USE RANKAIN MY GOD