Himelander Mafia Thread (Over! Scum Win!)

[UncertainJakutten]

Sorry bard. You have to give more than that. As has already been stated, you've been 95% fluff and 5% MAYBE opinions.

Provide reasoning, please

[Kitten4u]

Ugh, I get the feeling that I'm just bad at explaining what I'm seeing.

So, I'm not allowed to change my mind in light of new facts?

Of course you are.  I just don't see how any of the facts changed really.

I explained why I challenged Serp over Chaore. It was a combination of town's will and the odds of giving scum a head.

First point I can buy.  Second point is what?  I don't even know what you're trying to say there.

---

As for everything you keep saying that you have strong conviction when you have more or less changed your mind on your top suspect and you accused like half the game of being scum.  Yes you can change your mind, and if there's a good reason to do so you should, but that's not what I see.  You claim to have all these strong convictions, but I don't see that either.  I do however see a lot of little jabs and pokes.

[UncertainJakutten]

Of course you are.  I just don't see how any of the facts changed really.

Well, the only fact that changed was me reviewing. But that's a major fact, I'd think.

First point I can buy.  Second point is what?  I don't even know what you're trying to say there.

I was unlikely to survive a confrontation with Chaore. Enough of the town was thinking his suicidal gambit made him town, and I quite honestly don't believe that.

As for everything you keep saying that you have strong conviction when you have more or less changed your mind on your top suspect and you accused like half the game of being scum.  Yes you can change your mind, and if there's a good reason to do so you should, but that's not what I see.  You claim to have all these strong convictions, but I don't see that either.  I do however see a lot of little jabs and pokes.

Question: Where did I change my mind on my top suspect?
Actually, Question: Who is this "top suspect" you speak of?
Question: Where did I accuse half the game of being scum?
Question: Where do you see your version of events as opposed to mine?

Quite frankly, you...um...are blatantly mistaken about...uh...just about everything you accuse me of. I can't really defend against lies except by trying to expose them.

[Bardiche]

Sorry bard. You have to give more than that. As has already been stated, you've been 95% fluff and 5% MAYBE opinions.

Provide reasoning, please

It is my most sincerest opinion that the feeling originating from the lower section of my torso, sometimes referred to as 'gut', implies a heavy distrust of your allegiance is a good lead to follow.

[UncertainJakutten]

Lovely.

Completely lovely. You know, I see why gut players piss people off so often. I mean, I must have sounded like a real jackass when I was calling Rou town. I still think he is for the same reason you are voting me. I just know I have a higher probability of being right than you, Bard. Which doesn't help much, ne?

Could you at least TRY to go through the motions of making a case? If you have a gut read, follow up on it! Reread me and Serp, tell me what's wrong with me, and then tell us what's good about Serp.

[Kitten4u]

Well, the only fact that changed was me reviewing. But that's a major fact, I'd think.

I meant the stuff that you would actually be reading.

Actually, Question: Who is this "top suspect" you speak of?

I thought your top suspect was Kiro.  He was the first person you listed in your wall and the person you spent the most time attacking so I assumed he was your top suspect.  I already quoted what I felt was changing your mind.

Question: Where did I accuse half the game of being scum?

In your WoT.

Question: Where do you see your version of events as opposed to mine?

There was the D1 spat with Bard (really any spat, but that one stands out).
The thing with Alice.
Your WoT.

Those are the big three for me.  Most of those attacks (as I said there are a few in the WoT that I don't have a problem with) just don't feel genuine to me and it looks like you're just looking for people to attack.

[UncertainJakutten]

I thought your top suspect was Kiro.  He was the first person you listed in your wall and the person you spent the most time attacking so I assumed he was your top suspect.  I already quoted what I felt was changing your mind.

Nah, he was the one I focused on because he was hardest to get lynched. People were already assuming he was town so I had to act with my read on him. He still bugs me but I think my initial suspicions were not as good as I thought they were. Rereads tend to put things in new light for me.

In your WoT.

False. I named 5 players. 8, if you include my soft attack on Alice, Serp, and Jam. But I stood relatively by my 5 picks until I reassessed them. I still stand by 4 out of 5 of them. You cannot win this point because it's wrong

There was the D1 spat with Bard (really any spat, but that one stands out).
The thing with Alice.
Your WoT.

D1 spat with Bard um...is attacking one person attacking me. A person I STILL think is scum.

Further, I'll remind you that in RKS mafia, I got in a spat with UD and was town. In other prior games I've gotten in spats with Kilga as both town and scum. Not a valid point.

The thing with Alice.

The thing with Alice was basically me reading a really scummy post and drawing a conclusion from it without putting him in perspective. I do back off in my WoT because my reread forces me to draw a different conclusion. So, this still doesn't support your point.

Your WoT.

Already explained several times. If you can't understand what I'm saying, then it's hopeless arguing with you.

Those are the big three for me.  Most of those attacks (as I said there are a few in the WoT that I don't have a problem with) just don't feel genuine to me and it looks like you're just looking for people to attack.

Here we go. What doesn't feel genuine about them? If you can explain this, maybe I'll accept you are trying.

[Bardiche]

I just know I have a higher probability of being right than you, Bard.

This is in part reason why I am more inclined to trust Serpentarius. There is something distinctly wrong when someone keeps flaunting their superiority and being generally untoward and condescending to all who stand in opposition.

As for a 'case', you have continuously insisted such is impossible on you, who is but 'a cute kitten no one quite wants to lynch', or some such.

I'm talking, however, of your Day 1 behaviour which I do not feel is excused with "oops mistake": at the time, I advocated that Pesco was being stupid and that waiting would be better.

You said, at the time, "I'm ready to challenge Pesco if he doesn't follow up on his promise to you, Bard". If that isn't promoting a quick-challenge I do not know what is. At that moment, naturally you have me leery and distrustful of you, especially considering I spent most of my Day 1 time trying to poke a hole in your arguments.

Later on you declare something akin to "I'm leaning to Bard town now" and yet in follow ups you reveal none of this sentiment and keep yelling "I THINK BARD SCUM": I blame this in part due to a seemly increasing support of the notion that I am likely scum. It doesn't look genuine at all.

You speak in certainties and declare things as "you are blatantly mistaken", "you are completely wrong", "I am right" as if you have knowledge than none of the rest of us do and as if your communicative prowess is such that none of your messages can be interpreted in more than one way.

Everything you say is open to multiple interpretations, no one can be "blatantly wrong" or "blatantly right" when it comes to gauging the meaning behind your words. Perhaps after your flip we can.

I'll read through and see if I can compile a bulletpoint case to appease you. No promises. There's a whole lot of text around here and filtering what is relevant to scumhunting and what is relevant to game setup has hit me with massive apathy.

[UncertainJakutten]

This is in part reason why I am more inclined to trust Serpentarius. There is something distinctly wrong when someone keeps flaunting their superiority and being generally untoward and condescending to all who stand in opposition.

Question: Is it scummy?
Recall that if you are town, you are here to hunt scum, not criticize attitudes.

As for a 'case', you have continuously insisted such is impossible on you, who is but 'a cute kitten no one quite wants to lynch', or some such.

Oh, a case is possible, it'd just be wrong. But, regardless, if you want to write one up I'll crush it. In fact, I'd prefer you did. At least if you wrote a case I'd get a better idea of your intentions than I have all game

You said, at the time, "I'm ready to challenge Pesco if he doesn't follow up on his promise to you, Bard". If that isn't promoting a quick-challenge I do not know what is. At that moment, naturally you have me leery and distrustful of you, especially considering I spent most of my Day 1 time trying to poke a hole in your arguments.

Yes, I forced a quick challenge. I gave my reasoning, and I have since realized it was incorrect. This is, at the least, a good point against me, unlike what I'm getting from K4U.

Later on you declare something akin to "I'm leaning to Bard town now" and yet in follow ups you reveal none of this sentiment and keep yelling "I THINK BARD SCUM": I blame this in part due to a seemly increasing support of the notion that I am likely scum. It doesn't look genuine at all.

Actually, I think I had a few moments where you sounded townie, but then you reverted to the same crap you'd been doing all game, which wasn't townie. You felt like you had townie intent for a couple posts, then dropped it. Why?

You speak in certainties and declare things as "you are blatantly mistaken", "you are completely wrong", "I am right" as if you have knowledge than none of the rest of us do and as if your communicative prowess is such that none of your messages can be interpreted in more than one way.

Question: Is it scummy?
Recall that if you are town, you are here to hunt scum, not criticize attitudes.

Everything you say is open to multiple interpretations, no one can be "blatantly wrong" or "blatantly right" when it comes to gauging the meaning behind your words. Perhaps after your flip we can.

Cute. You assume you'll actually get it. I vow that you will flip before I do, Bard. I'm about ready to request town's permission to allow me to challenge you tomorrow. Of course, if Serp flips town I won't expect that request to be granted. Regardless, I'd like to issue it here:

If you'll allow me, everyone, can I challenge Bardiche tomorrow and prove myself correct about him, to all of you?

I'll read through and see if I can compile a bulletpoint case to appease you. No promises. There's a whole lot of text around here and filtering what is relevant to scumhunting and what is relevant to game setup has hit me with massive apathy.

I'd say how convenient but I know exactly how that feels. So I'll spare you that indignity.


And don't forget. It's not just a case on me. You also need to show why Serp is town or less scummy than I am.

[Kitten4u]

False. I named 5 players. 8, if you include my soft attack on Alice, Serp, and Jam. But I stood relatively by my 5 picks until I reassessed them. I still stand by 4 out of 5 of them. You cannot win this point because it's wrong

It was an over exaggeration yes, but it's not wrong.  Two flipped scum, but they were obvious scum, so saying that you stand by them is kind of silly (assuming they're part of that 4).  I've already explained how I feel about you and Kiro.  While I was rereading you I also noticed that you do this with Bard as well.  I still don't think your convictions are strong.  There are also several jabs at people in there that you could potentially use if they stuck.

D1 spat with Bard um...is attacking one person attacking me. A person I STILL think is scum.

Further, I'll remind you that in RKS mafia, I got in a spat with UD and was town. In other prior games I've gotten in spats with Kilga as both town and scum. Not a valid point.

You're kind of missing the point, but that's probably my fault for explaining it badly.  I suppose you could say that I think you were doing to Bard what you think I'm doing to you.

The thing with Alice was basically me reading a really scummy post and drawing a conclusion from it without putting him in perspective. I do back off in my WoT because my reread forces me to draw a different conclusion. So, this still doesn't support your point.

Except you don't.  He was still in your list of suspects and the point on him was still really bad.  It still looks like reaching to me.  You didn't really back off until it looked like no one wanted to attack him.

Here we go. What doesn't feel genuine about them? If you can explain this, maybe I'll accept you are trying.

I'm really not sure how I can explain this any better than I have.  Your WoT had random jabs at people.  It would be easy for you to say that virtually anyone was scum should the case come up.  Most of the accusations in you made in the WoT were fairly weak anyway as I've been saying.  I think I cover the other stuff that's bothering my in the above quotes.

I feel like I'm just repeating myself at this point.

[Bardiche]

Actually, all that arrogance has me majorly turned off from the game now.

Requesting modkill.

[Pesco]

Actually, all that arrogance has me majorly turned off from the game now.

Requesting modkill.

Noted. Report the offending post and I'll investigate.

[UncertainJakutten]

Except you don't.  He was still in your list of suspects and the point on him was still really bad.  It still looks like reaching to me.  You didn't really back off until it looked like no one wanted to attack him.

I think after my WoT I don't really persue him again and stick to my five picks. Is that what you mean?

I'm really not sure how I can explain this any better than I have.  Your WoT had random jabs at people.  It would be easy for you to say that virtually anyone was scum should the case come up.  Most of the accusations in you made in the WoT were fairly weak anyway as I've been saying.  I think I cover the other stuff that's bothering my in the above quotes.

One problem with this. I'm constrained to the 8 names I listed as suspects. I have to give a good reason why someone ISN'T scum in my top five before I can move on to my secondary three. I don't have NEARLY the flexibility you accuse me of. I did bump Kiro down after rereading his posts, which made room for Serp as a possibility. Granted, I don't think that one will pan out.

Actually, all that arrogance has me majorly turned off from the game now.

Requesting modkill.

Mine or yours? If it's yours, I apologize that we had this clash. After the game I would like to open a dialogue with you to try to mend whatever went wrong without the pretension of alignments. I assure you I'm not nearly as much of a bitch outside of mafia.

If it's mine well...I still wouldn't mind having that dialogue, but I sincerely hope a modkill isn't granted.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Bard: *headdesk*

[Bardiche]

I'm requesting my own modkill.

I'm just really tired of all this condescending nonsense and beliggerent commentaries. It's enough that I'm already apathetic due to huge amounts of setup discussions where you can only go "not a good idea" or "good idea", to deal with someone going all conceited is the last on my list of "let's do that for amusement".

[UncertainJakutten]

Then, I would like to speak with you after the game for certain. I apologize if my style came off as that...rude, and I'll admit it kinda surprises me myself that it went that far...

If it helps any, I'll work harder to clean up the condescending attitude. Would you at least reconsider your decision to leave the game?

[Kilgamayan]

Please resume normal game activities for the time being. Bard's modkill request has been noted and Rat will make a decision when he sees it.

I will have more to say after the game about Mafia in general, so please withhold discussion of these current circumstances until then.

[Kitten4u]

Hm...

Maybe I'm just over reacting.  Something about the WoT and the other things I'm bringing up really bugs me, but...I admit that your defense is making me feel better.  I think I'm going to go reread the game later when I have more time.

Ninja
Bard is making me sad now.

[UncertainJakutten]

That's probably a good idea. When my reads start stagnating I try to do a reread from the time of my last one to see what's changed. I'm probably due for one soon myself, but I'll see if I survive this challenge first.

[Ranmilia]

Bard: *headdesk*

Don't know what to say about those events except this. 

Still favoring UK to win here, I think.  Serp has said nothing and done no scumhunting that isn't predicated on "try to game the setup and lynch winners!" which is a matter I think I've made my views clear on.  For him to continue pushing it this far and this hard is entirely unhelpful to town. 

It would be excellent if the two kittens could cut down on the stripey post quoting.  All I really get out of it is UK hates Bard for... something, winning + attitude I guess, and K4 hates UK for hatin on Bard.

[UncertainJakutten]

This post isn't really game relevant, but I do not "hate" any player here. I may seem rude and hostile to people I think are scum, but outside the game I don't have that opinion of them. This is just a game, and while within the game I portray a very bitchy person, I don't try to take things from in the game to out of the game.

Just to be clear.

[Ranmilia]

Similarly I would like to clarify that when I say "hate" I mean it in a joking and nonserious fashion.  It is easier to type than "thinks they are scummy or otherwise disapproves of their play in some fashion and wishes to lynch them or see them dead or for them to recant their views etc."

[UncertainJakutten]

Similarly I would like to clarify that when I say "hate" I mean it in a joking and nonserious fashion.  It is easier to type than "thinks they are scummy or otherwise disapproves of their play in some fashion and wishes to lynch them or see them dead or for them to recant their views etc."

Fair enough. It's just given how...far I've apparently pushed some people, I think that distinction needs to be made. And perhaps if a situation like this is occuring, I do need to back off and adjust my attitude.

[Chaore]

Going to double on Alice and Alex's posts.

...absolutely nothing new really. More gut reads and UK vs. K4U, which feels like what has already been said on UK constantly. Though that may just be me.

Still for a UK win. Rereading Serp's wall of death does help me understand him now. This does not mean I'm about to agree with him, though. I believe the issues with his thoughts have been beautifully eloquated already.

[Edible]

All players: Please reduce the levels of needless antagonism.  Thank you.

I see I was ignored.

[Serp]

And this falls flat on its face if there are 5 scum. You realise this, right?

Only if we pick wrong every single time on who to kill.  I know it's hard to believe that you might actually need to choose correctly between scum and town in order to win a game of mafia, but I'm afraid this is the best strategy I can come up with.

I still disagree with killing off Alex due to the ludicrousy of Alex calling out 2 scumbuddies and still netting only 1 Town head with up to 3 Scum neutralized.

This is called WIFOM.  If killing off two scumbuddies led to Alex becoming a trusted player, then it's worth it for him as scum.  Kiro's cases still aren't looking sincere at all to me.

I see scum lining up a couple of kitten lynches.  Expecting a case on K4u along the lines of "You knew Serp would flip town so you supported him for town cred."  Her insistence on my towniness has been pretty consistent since the start, so I'm not inclined to see it as scummy.  And UK always posts big fences that jab at everyone and then acts really abrasive.  It's not pro-town, but it's not scummy from her.

I suppose I could see letting UK kill Bardiche tomorrow, then having Cid kill UK the next day.  I'd still rather see Chaore go down before UK, though.  If Chaore flips scum, then I wouldn't want to let UK get a second kill before dying.

[UncertainJakutten]

I'll admit, I support me challenging Chaore OR Bard. Actually, less on bard. I know he's not confirmed but he seems like he's genuinely frustrated, which is a little more likely to come from town IMO.

I still think that committing to a few players as I have mitigates the idea that my wall jabbed everyone, but whatever.

[UncertainJakutten]

I've taken ill. I will not respond for a couple hours. Hopefully I'll get better soon...

It's unrelated to this game.

[Carthrat]

Bardiche, aka Kazahana Mashiro, Town Crippled Principal exploded!

Scum got a free .99 of a kill! In the event that they max out at 4.99 kills, the game will be a draw.

Please don't anyone quit anymore okay? There is no good and fair way to resolve it, arguably sans replacement or rendering Bard an inert dummy, and I like neither of those options.

<->

UncertainKitten vs. Serpentarius status update

UncertainKitten (5) - Cid, Jam, Kefit, Alex, Chaore
Serpentarius (1) -  K4U

11 alive, 6 votes to win. You have 11 hours remaining.

[Kiro]

K4U: Hrm, I guess I can't challenge the gut defense of Serp on any particular level until we see the flip. And how I understood it is that UK has shifted her read on me as "surefire Scum" to "still don't like him, but could be Town." I think your point on her "jabs and pokes" is weak. Furthermore in the Alice case, a mild suspicion is not a poke or jab because she hasn't even gone after Alice in recent memory. All in all, not convinced of your reasons why UK is scummier than Serp.

Bard modkill: I see we're actually at L-1 now (only 6 votes needed rather than 7). I'll be asleep when deadline hits, but I'll avoid hammering for if anyone needs to get any last words in during prime time USA discussion. Fresh reread will come later to consider the Bard as Townie aspect.