Author Topic: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL  (Read 30398 times)

hiddenryuu

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2010, 06:30:15 PM »
Doing it this mechanically seems to defeat the purpose.

What goal is accomplished here? Where is the feat (or even the enjoyment) in "I just beat a difficulty that literally anyone can beat by following this explicit set of instructions someone else wrote in order to unlock a stage I have no chance in hell of coming close to finishing because I only know how to follow bombing formulas and am not very good at actually playing the game"?

If I am missing something very key, please do tell me, because I'm genuinely confused.

Good bombing is usually the key to surviving and 1ccing these games. I think it's just to show how people shouldn't be afraid to use bombs.

Extra stage is a different animal since it's so much on pure memorization (at least most of them) so even if they couldn't beat it at first, eventually it will be burned into ones mind.

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2010, 06:42:38 PM »
Marisa is not forward enough? Most games where Marisa uses her lasers has a shot type more forward focused than Reimu.

Yes. She also does less damage for her even thinner range.

I don't see why this is such a big deal. I have the most fun with the shot types that I feel the most comfortable playing. When I want to switch things up I will try another shot type and usually fail because I'm not used to playing with them.
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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2010, 06:47:01 PM »
genuinely confused etc
More or less what ^ just said. Obviously what I did was an exaggeration, but giving an standard example of a standard 1cc doesn't hold as much ground. There is very little enjoyment in beating it this way, I can say that much. I see way too many people complaining about how they can't 1cc a game on Normal, yet they refuse to bomb and die with many left in stock. Evidently, you shouldn't be bombing every pattern under the sun. If you really wanted to, you should be able to 1cc just by bombing the crap out of anything that might give you any trouble without giving it a second thought. But nearly always the reason people aren't succeeding is because of bomb neglect.

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2010, 07:38:20 PM »
People usually try to save bombs for the moment they need, but they "never" need it, and end up with a lot on stock that are never used.
I, for example, am always trying to capture the cards, but end up failing due to stupid mistakes and yet I refuse to bomb and thus I fail even more in the end...

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2010, 11:15:31 PM »
GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL



True its the farthest I've taken a Normal 1cc, but until I memorize stages and peripheral hitbox locating it's not gonna happen, and the same holds true for many people.


Sorry, it's just no matter how I read this thread it sounds like arguing a brainless 1-armed ape could 1cc Normal on his first try with bomb-spamming as long as "he wanted it", which feels insulting to say the least. >:( I apologize if I'm reading too much into it...



Easy Mode I would maybe agree.

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2010, 11:19:19 PM »
If I had started this thread, the question would be HEY GUYZ TEACH ME TO BOMB PLZ

I never think to bomb until after I've died <_<
I gotta have something for my sig, so...

Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2010, 11:25:28 PM »
GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL

True its the farthest I've taken a Normal 1cc, but until I memorize stages and peripheral hitbox locating it's not gonna happen, and the same holds true for many people.


Sorry, it's just no matter how I read this thread it sounds like arguing a brainless 1-armed ape could 1cc Normal on his first try with bomb-spamming as long as "he wanted it", which feels insulting to say the least. >:( I apologize if I'm reading too much into it...



Easy Mode I would maybe agree.


Shit gets bad when Youmu is around. If I played more it wouldn't be a problem.

Drake

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2010, 12:24:16 AM »
Yes, this is what I wanted in here. Don't forget about your bombs, people. Mimeslayer, you just need to keep practicing. When you memorize stages you stop dying from enemy overload, first of all. Make sure at the very least you manage to get that 800 point extend.

Quote
Sorry, it's just no matter how I read this thread it sounds like arguing a brainless 1-armed ape could 1cc Normal on his first try with bomb-spamming as long as "he wanted it", which feels insulting to say the least.
Not on his first try he couldn't. Shouldn't be an insult; more like reinforcement with parody. Secondly to note, I would much rather people be insulted by this and actually do something about it rather than have them pass unaffected by the demonstration, continuing to waste bombs and failing to beat the game.

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2010, 12:53:05 AM »
Hey drake, can something similar done with Marisa, even though she has the lowest bomb stock? I don't think so, but I'm thinking if she can do it from stage 4 onward, that should be good enough for anyone using her to do it.

The result: Netherworld makes stages a breeze and bosses a nightmare.
Then you don't know how to use neitherworld properly, because Yuyuko has some great shotgun damage, and if you don't know how to do that properly she at least does reasonable damage if you can get two or three butterflies to hit. If only one is hitting you need more practice.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 12:58:30 AM by AlexX Unlimited »

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2010, 12:58:57 AM »
Yes. She also does less damage for her even thinner range.

I don't see why this is such a big deal. I have the most fun with the shot types that I feel the most comfortable playing. When I want to switch things up I will try another shot type and usually fail because I'm not used to playing with them.
Reimu spoils you too much, stop using her. You'll thank yourself when you finally try her again after a while.

I mean I understand why you would prefer Reimu, but you always make it sound like every single shottype that isn't Needles Reimu is completely worthless (unless you're talking about SA in which case it's absolutely true :V).
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 01:02:31 AM by Serafie »

ebarrett

Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2010, 12:59:14 AM »
Fact: Touhou is a game about not thinking you're a better player than you are. A lot of players who chronically die with bombs in stock do so because they think they can get through stuff they obviously can't at their current skill without ridiculous amounts of luck, and fail to see fluke dodges/captures as such.

And this happens at all levels - I have the resource "chart" for SA lunatic all figured out, and it tells me I should be able to clear it with two lives to spare, a bunch of random mistakes outta nowhere included in the calculations. Why didn't I 1cc it yet, then? Because what the resources/bombs/deaths preview probably tells me is that a player somewhat better than me can clear it with two lives to spare, and my unpredicted deaths above the "still have enough to clear it" threshold are happening because I insist on saying to myself that some parts which are tricky for me are easy, leading to moronic deaths in places where I should be paying much more attention, ready to bomb at any moment.

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2010, 11:40:25 AM »
Another fact: shaming and ridiculing people into trying to beat the game makes it sound like a chore, and not an enjoyable one. Games are supposed to be fun to play. That's the point; winning isn't.

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2010, 11:46:48 AM »
Another fact: shaming and ridiculing people into trying to beat the game makes it sound like a chore, and not an enjoyable one. Games are supposed to be fun to play. That's the point; winning isn't.

and this is why i will never finish a Windows Touhou game not called PoFV.

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2010, 12:49:03 PM »
Another fact: shaming and ridiculing people into trying to beat the game makes it sound like a chore, and not an enjoyable one. Games are supposed to be fun to play. That's the point; winning isn't.
some (like myself) find out that the *skill exercise* (the path, not the win itself) required to win provides more fun than just playing the game without that goal, if the gameplay is good enough and involves actual skills.

Drake did a great job in demonstrating how this series give out more bombs and extends than most arcade shmups (and before anyone says anything about arcade shmups being cheap, made to devour your wallet, this series is among the ones that showed me that it's just their designs that were beyond my comprehension back then), and how people should spend them more. The fact that some of the games allow the player to bombspam like he did was just a bonus.

Whoever's complaining about his demonstration taking away the challenge of the games and/or dismissing the efforts that they've put in isn't being critical enough to themselves (as in, not analyzing when/where/why they're dying when they could've bombed or done something else, and what to do against it) and the game (as in, it's not really difficult to do well on the first 3 stages consistently enough to give you more chances of starting stage 4 with enough lives and bombs until then and then learn to play defensively through the remaining stages, and learn when you're dying the most times. For example, Marisa in SoEW. If you learn to bomb her at the right moments, she won't take as many lives. Does it reduce difficulty? Yes. But am I playing for score there? No. at that time, I wanted to reunlock Extra. It took me something like 1 hour and half, with the 3 shot types.). 1ccing on Normal isn't as difficult as people may want to believe. There's really no shame in bombing a pattern that seems to be giving trouble to you in particular, and there's no pride in dying instead of bombing it.

Fact: Touhou is a game about not thinking you're a better player than you are. A lot of players who chronically die with bombs in stock do so because they think they can get through stuff they obviously can't at their current skill without ridiculous amounts of luck, and fail to see fluke dodges/captures as such.

true, also true for a lot of shmups. Players must learn to maintain control over the game, and normally, when we see gameplay videos, the player bombs when he/she has lost it, and wants to be safe, or dies because he/she accepted the risk, but knows his/her own current limits.

edit: I forgot to mention bombing for score, which usually reduces your survivability.

edit 2: forgot about preventive bombing too, when the player wants to avoid an incoming, foreseen situation of risk, such as difficult boss patterns, before they can represent a risk to the player.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 01:15:31 PM by shadowbringer »
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Tengukami

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2010, 12:55:44 PM »
Is it really necessary to be "self-critical" to play a freakin' shmup?

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2010, 01:13:23 PM »
Is it really necessary to be "self-critical" to play a freakin' shmup?
when the goal involved is to 1cc the game, and the problem to be solved involves changing/improving your approach towards the stages/bosses, being self-critical, as opposed to just keep trying harder, is natural. People may even do that (sometimes on instinct, on the fly) without realizing they are, in between or during playing sessions, and discover other ways, or the flaws of their former ways.

However, when the goal is just to play the game (without expectations of 1ccing it), being self-critical becomes optional.

You seem to be treating Drake's thread as if you were being told to 1cc the games, but in fact, this thread is directed to those who want to 1cc the games and are having trouble with that goal.
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Tengukami

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2010, 02:09:06 PM »
I'm addressing not the thread necessarily but the general attitude that 1cc is the sole point of playing; that it's so important it's worth imitating another's game, move for move, to get there. I'm offering that 1cc might just be secondary to having fun. Just puttin' that POV out there.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Tengukami

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2010, 02:12:19 PM »
IOW: Just adding to Kilga's point.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Bananamatic

Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2010, 02:37:58 PM »
I mean I understand why you would prefer Reimu, but you always make it sound like every single shottype that isn't Needles Reimu is completely worthless (unless you're talking about SA in which case it's absolutely true :V).
donut is right
most shooters don't have weird shottypes which are full shotgun or shotgun focused and straight unfocused.

Touhou has 3 shot tiers: Forward, homing and garbage
Also, SanaeB sucks.

Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2010, 03:04:13 PM »
I'm addressing not the thread necessarily but the general attitude that 1cc is the sole point of playing; that it's so important it's worth imitating another's game, move for move, to get there. I'm offering that 1cc might just be secondary to having fun. Just puttin' that POV out there.

but, like Drake mentioned in his MoF thread, you're not supposed to bomb on many of the earlier patterns. Both of his replays (MoF and PCB) are meant to demonstrate how much bombs (and supernatural borders) the games give to you, and they also serve to encourage players to not hold their bombs in fear that they'll need them later.

In fact, 1ccing isn't everything. I have yet to be able to score decently in the games.  ;D
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Iryan

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2010, 03:09:51 PM »
Now, people, try not to be unneccessarily harsh towards one another.

On the one hand it is true, one should not cry about how the game is too difficult or unfair when one is simply refusing to use a legitimate strategy that would greatly improve their chances of success. However, on the other one should not act condescending towards the people who refuse to use this strategy because it would render the game unfun to them.

For my part, I could probably 1cc the other lunatic modes if I used bombs more proactively against the difficult attacks and stage portions that I have problems with. However, this wouldn't be as fun to me. It feels bad to die to an attack, but just bombing it to smithereens because I would probably die to it otherwise is an inner defeat that sucks even more. I'd rather improve my skills so far that I'd either be able to do that pattern without bombing or at least be quick enough to bomb when it actually becomes immediately neccessary.

So yeah, abusing your bombs is obviously the rationally easier way to achieve the 1cc, but the desire to not abuse bombs should at least be understandable.

The goal is not to 1cc the game. The goal is the feeling of accomplishment afterwards. And this feeling just isn't there if you follow a strict formula that, as Drake proved, anybody can adhere to and win without much of actual playing skill.

So... pretty much what Tengukami said.


Conclusion:
Don't be afraid to use bomb, but don't lecture people who just don't enjoy to abuse bombs.
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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2010, 03:15:47 PM »
Ha, likewise, shadowbringer. IN is the only one I've 1cc'd. I'm stuck at Stage 6 in SA and MoF, and Stage 5 in everything else. I've played all the PC-98 games a few times, but not enough to have a clear idea of my progress. I think I get stuck because I get so lost in the magic of the games, the girls and Gensokyo that I'll be blissing out with a grin on my face when suddenly: clipdeath. Heh. Way it goes.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 03:20:21 PM by Tengukami »

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2010, 04:04:46 PM »
I was a good bomber when I 1cc'd eosd. But after that... My bombing skills went down the crapper. most of the time I even swear I bomb before I die, yet it doesn't happen and I die.

Anyway I don't like bombing unless I'm sure I'm dead because it just feels less fun to do so, and occasionally you DO fluke out, resulting in a good replay to impress yourself with.

I played pcb bard the other day, and somehow was at the life cap until youmou. I finished with 6 or 7 lives left, and most of my deaths were the kind with bombs wasted. Yet I still struggle to beat mod hard with more than 3 lives left, and I was bombing like a pro=p. I really don't see how people think eosd and pcb are particularly difficult touhous!

Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2010, 04:57:06 PM »
Now, people, try not to be unneccessarily harsh towards one another.

On the one hand it is true, one should not cry about how the game is too difficult or unfair when one is simply refusing to use a legitimate strategy that would greatly improve their chances of success. However, on the other one should not act condescending towards the people who refuse to use this strategy because it would render the game unfun to them.

For my part, I could probably 1cc the other lunatic modes if I used bombs more proactively against the difficult attacks and stage portions that I have problems with. However, this wouldn't be as fun to me. It feels bad to die to an attack, but just bombing it to smithereens because I would probably die to it otherwise is an inner defeat that sucks even more. I'd rather improve my skills so far that I'd either be able to do that pattern without bombing or at least be quick enough to bomb when it actually becomes immediately neccessary.

So yeah, abusing your bombs is obviously the rationally easier way to achieve the 1cc, but the desire to not abuse bombs should at least be understandable.

The goal is not to 1cc the game. The goal is the feeling of accomplishment afterwards. And this feeling just isn't there if you follow a strict formula that, as Drake proved, anybody can adhere to and win without much of actual playing skill.

So... pretty much what Tengukami said.


Conclusion:
Don't be afraid to use bomb, but don't lecture people who just don't enjoy to abuse bombs.

it seems that you see 1ccing while bombing as fewer times as possible as the goal to be achieved, it sounds like if you've done it on all difficulties/characters, you'd feel that you've experienced everything that the game has to offer, and be ready to stop playing it. But there's something even more demanding (and enjoyable imho), the so often mentioned scoreplay (which for most games don't rely on such bombspam). I don't mean to 'convert', or 'force' everyone into trying it, but I can't help but sigh in disappointment when people believe themselves to have exhausted the games they're playing without exploring that aspect of the game.

Trying to avoid bombing is understandable (especially true for me, whenever I'm playing Dodonpachi and am in the Max Bombs bonus, where you gain points over time until you no longer are at maximum bomb capacity). But, like I've mentioned in the above paragraph (regarding scoreplay), most of the games in the series don't reward bombspam (thinking about HRtP, PoFV and MoF, and to a lesser extent, SA, as the exceptions, though not really spam -- rather, well-placed bombs --, but MoF being the main offender), and are more difficult to play for score, than for "perfect playthroughs". Most of the times, if you're going for score, you're already doing the stuff you were originally going for (not losing lives unless needed, not bombing as much), but risking yourself more.

With that said, it's fine to enjoy trying to 1cc the game while bombing/dying as fewer times as possible, the thing that I don't agree with, is that such a goal (bombing/dying as fewer times as possible) is an indicator or landmark of a player's best abilities (to put it shortly, not something that one could brag about to others, and certainly not the extent of how far can you improve at the game), and the ultimate-ish goal that the games have to offer.
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Drake

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2010, 06:29:06 PM »
Thank you, shadowbringer. You seem to understand the point.

I could honestly care less whether or not people actually want to 1cc the games or not. They can make it their goal, or they can make something entirely unrelated their goal. However, shmup players by default set their goal to a 1cc. Touhou players in particular, a normal 1cc. This is not my choice, it is entirely theirs. I merely acknowledged this fact and decided to go through the most-played scenario in PCB.

I could honestly care less whether or not people bombspam or not. Having the idea that "using too many bombs hinders the amount of fun you're having" is fine with me. It's much more impressive to 1cc a game without the use of any bombs anyways, and I applaud one for being able to do this. However, people take their choice goal of a 1cc, complain that they cannot accomplish this, and refuse to use bombs as a preventative measure as they were intended.

The amount of fun you're having, in this case, is totally irrelevant. If you're complaining that you can't accomplish something and refuse to take into account one of the most basic devices the game gives you, then in my eyes you need to get told. However, many people who complain about not being able to 1cc are given advice to accomplish that goal. Replays are always available and more experienced players lend help on a more personal level. Critique is given. And people ignore it. Maybe not to the point of completely disregarding any help, but to the point that if they actually followed their instructions properly they would be 1ccing the game. Proper bombing is one of these heavily-ignored pieces of advice. You can give people a bunch of advice, they go back and die with a bunch of bombs in stock anyways and complain again. I am not saying that proper bombing can be learned instantly, either. Like everything else in the game, you need to exert that small amount of effort needed to learn it.

This replay is not to be taken as a literal example of what everyone should be doing. Lots of stress on this. I'm not telling anyone to actually go out there and bombspam their entire way through the game, not at all. You bomb whatever give you trouble or looks as if you won't be able to dodge it. It is merely a demonstration that implies heavily that if you bomb more, you will 1cc. This game gives you lots of bombs. Use them. It also gives you lots of Borders, but that's less urgent than bombing considering you'll use them automatically. If anything would get people to understand the difference that bombing can make, people will listen to demonstration of an extreme example. This, any way you look at it is an extreme example.

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2010, 06:36:19 PM »
Then you don't know how to use neitherworld properly, because Yuyuko has some great shotgun damage, and if you don't know how to do that properly she at least does reasonable damage if you can get two or three butterflies to hit. If only one is hitting you need more practice.
I never said I was good  :V. Also, I generally try to unfocus during bossfights, as I prefer Youmu's higher damage and a little effort to stay under the boss.

To Drake: I agree with you, but ignoring people who complain they can't 1cc a game AND have all the advice they need seems far better.

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2010, 06:40:41 PM »
To Drake: I agree with you, but ignoring people who complain they can't 1cc a game AND have all the advice they need seems far better.

I somewhat disagree with this. Some of us get a (arguably perverse) satisfaction from making whiny people look stupid.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2010, 06:42:53 PM »
There is a very fine barrier between helping someone and making them look stupid, unfortunately.

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Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2010, 06:43:47 PM »
It's easy to identify, though.

- If the person has never received help before, then you're helping them.
- If the person has received help before and simply refuses to pay attention to it, then they're being whiny.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Helion

  • I am the very model of a scientist salarian
Re: GUYZ I DUN GET IT Y CANT I 1CC PCB NORMUL
« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2010, 06:56:47 PM »
There is a very fine barrier between helping someone and making them look stupid, unfortunately.
Yes, but then if they have proven to be stupid enough to be unable to follow instructions, making them look stupid is just trolling for teh lulz right?