Author Topic: Touhou Accomplishments VI  (Read 135653 times)

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #780 on: February 09, 2010, 10:22:58 PM »
I may practice up on it some, but I haven't even 1cc'd Hard on it, though I've made it up to Resurrection Butterfly 50% Reflowering on one credit. My main problem is probably with border timing though so I waste bombs or die on stuff a border should have dealt with.

I was thinking MoF or IN first. I may go do a ReimuA SA one sometime as well just because it's the standard for that game.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 10:24:52 PM by Enigma »

Bananamatic

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #781 on: February 09, 2010, 10:25:12 PM »
What is your definition of a 'fun' stage anyway? Personally i find fun stages to be stages where you need to dodge a lot of bullets without it being too hard or repetitive. Every non-Touhou shmup i have played is either stages where pretty much everything is aimed at you or stages where everything is static and needs to be memorized. Of course utilizing the same boring colour palette.
Fast, nonstop action, no bullshit(st5 UFO).
Touhou is slow as hell with inconsistent difficulty(st5 PCB is a joke, st5 UFO is ridiculous, st5 SA is...eh)

Sodium

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #782 on: February 09, 2010, 10:33:04 PM »
Quote
Every non-Touhou shmup i have played is either stages where pretty much everything is aimed at you or stages where everything is static and needs to be memorized. Of course utilizing the same boring colour palette.
I fail to see how this doesn't describe most Touhou stages, especially SA Stages.

Sapz

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #783 on: February 09, 2010, 11:08:24 PM »
What is your definition of a 'fun' stage anyway? Personally i find fun stages to be stages where you need to dodge a lot of bullets without it being too hard or repetitive. Every non-Touhou shmup i have played is either stages where pretty much everything is aimed at you or stages where everything is static and needs to be memorized. Of course utilizing the same boring colour palette.
This will be a long post. Bear in mind that I'm generally going to use DoDonPachi as a counter-example here, since it's the arcade shmup I'm most familiar with.

First off, though, as for the colour palette; this is a non-issue for me, as I play shmups for the gameplay rather than the graphics. If anything, then, the bullets in Touhou with their assortment of colours are inferior to the bright, glowing bullets of arcade shmups. Many people have voiced legitimate concerns over the bullets in Touhou blending in with the background, such as MS Stage 4 or UFO Stage 5. Obviously this isn't a really big deal, but I'd much rather have glowing bullets with clear outlines on a distinctly non-glowing background than a cluster of randomly aimed red/white glowing bullets with no outline on a glowing red background (graaagh Greatest Treasure).

Secondly, the pacing; Touhou stages are often praised for having music that synchronizes with the gameplay. This does look pretty cool, but I don't actually pay much attention to the BGM while frantically dodging bullets, so this doesn't really do anything for me. What happens instead is you get a wave of fairies spewing mostly the same bullets... then a few seconds later, after you've cleared them, you get some more. This doesn't happen so much in the newer games in the series, but it's glaringly obvious in places like PCB Stage 4. Arcade shmups (in general) are the exact opposite; they're designed not to leave you any breathing room. You will never be in a situation where you are waiting for the next wave to appear; rather, you're constantly moving about the screen, targeting the next set of enemies, weighing up which group of enemies is going to pose you a larger threat. It's exciting, and emerging unscathed from a hard-as-nails stage with no time to catch your breath gives an adrenaline rush unlike anything Touhou's slow stages will offer. I mean, hell, DoDonPachi's scoring system is based around this very concept; in order to keep any kind of decent chain going, you're going to want to average under a second between enemy kills, and waiting for more than a second or two between kills will end it immediately. The fact that you're able to do full stage chains in every stage except for stage 1 just goes to show how relentless and action-packed they are.

Thirdly, the variety; this may seem in conflict with what I've said earlier about not caring about graphics, but an average Touhou stage will consist of destroying rows of identical fairies and the occasional lone fairy on a repeated background. This is particularly noticable in something like IN Stage 3; it seems extremely disorganised and unmemorable due to its bland, repeated brown background and the fact that most of what it does is just pile a few of the fairies with the travelling familiars on the screen corners and have a few other fairies fly in from the side to fire aimed clusterfucks at you. It's not that it's particularly difficult (it isn't), it's just really, really boring. Constrast this, yet again, with an arcade shmup (here's an example of what I consider to be a really fun stage, to give you an idea of what I mean). You have things like groups of turrets that fire spread patterns; laser turrets that pop out of destroyed buildings; large tanks that appear inside blown-up structures that fire aimed and static patterns at the same time; and a particularly interesting section half-way through where you have to balance out the destruction of large planes that fire dense, static patterns with groups of ever-increasing small tanks that fire aimed shots at you. Things like that help to keep the gameplay interesting.

There's probably more things to mention, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head. Bear in mind that all that doesn't mean I dislike Touhou; I love those games to pieces, but even ZUN has mentioned that the focus was always on the bosses rather than the stages, and it irks me when people disregard arcade shmups for reasons like 'having a boring colour palette'.

...Holy damn, I think I went on for too long. :V
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Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #784 on: February 09, 2010, 11:24:07 PM »
Uploaded (excuse the terrible play).

This also ties in nicely with my theory that how much fun you have playing for score in a shmup is directly proportional to the amount of gold, shiny things you get while doing it. :V
As opposed to blue squares with moonrunes on them?  :V

I need scissors!
Secondly, the pacing; Touhou stages are often praised for having music that synchronizes with the gameplay. This does look pretty cool, but I don't actually pay much attention to the BGM while frantically dodging bullets, so this doesn't really do anything for me.
The music "cues" are great for scoring purposes and other things you know.

...Holy damn, I think I went on for too long. :V
61!

'sides, I think that would be more appropriate for another thread?
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Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #785 on: February 09, 2010, 11:33:53 PM »
As opposed to blue squares with moonrunes on them?  :V
Pretty much. :V Blue moonrune squares just don't have the same must get factor as gold gems, or stars, or big shiny 'x1000' multipliers.
The music "cues" are great for scoring purposes and other things you know.
Maybe it's just me, but I find it much easier to figure out things like that by looking at the background rather than listening to the music. 'I'm at point X because I can see related point Y' just works more for me than 'I'm at point X because instrument Y just came in'. To each their own, though.
'sides, I think that would be more appropriate for another thread?
I agree this thread isn't exactly well suited, but I thought here would probably be the best place since Zengeku's post that I replied to was here too. Aside from that, I can't actually think of any threads where it would be any more appropriate than here, so yeah. :V
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 11:50:41 PM by Sapz »
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Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #786 on: February 09, 2010, 11:51:28 PM »
Pretty much. :V Blue moonrune squares just don't have the same must get factor as gold gems, or stars, or big shiny 'x1000' multipliers.
Fair enough. Also while going on about BIG SHINY ITEMS and such, I do recall hearing about one certain shmup that had the "Point Items" constantly changing values at random or something like that. Can't recall the name though.
Spoiler:
Honestly, BIG SHINY ITEMS never had that sort of lure to me; perhaps I've been playing too many "bastard" RPGs
.

Maybe it's just me, but I find it much easier to figure out things like that by looking at the background rather than listening to the music. 'I'm at point X because I can see related point Y' just works more for me than 'I'm at point X because instrument Y just came in'. To each their own, though.
Touhou backgrounds are set on repeat; there are no "proper" points on them to use during the stages. Instead, you have to make your own points based on the music (well, for the stages anyway; bosses are a different matter of course).

I will concede to the point that its much easier to look at the background to find your reference points when dealing with other shmups that don't have scroll-repeat backgrounds in 95% of cases. Example; that previous video you posted... I guess? Or I could point to just about any other shmup and get it right.

i.e. To each their own game  >:3

I agree this thread isn't eactly well suited, but I thought here would probably be the best place since Zengeku's post that I replied to was here too. Aside from that, I can't actually think of any threads where it would be any more appropriate than here, so yeah. :V
mmm... http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=4146.0 ?
Or PMing; it's there for a reason. Speaking of, Donut's PMs consist of 95% of my inbox. Yeah that's right, only 95%.

And I should probably pester my personal friend for a few replays now. I wonder how good she truly is?

EDIT: Oh, that was her limit; I guess she's not a Lunatic yet. Oh well, one could always hope~

EDIT 2: And now, Byakuren's "BS" First SC now has a capture rate of ~50% with ReimuA. Talk about overrated difficulty. Well, we'll see if it'll be 7/14 by the end of this little program.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 03:13:10 AM by BAD BOY BAITY!! (dj Remo-con MIX) »
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Bananamatic

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #787 on: February 10, 2010, 05:28:04 AM »
Chaining cubes - makes you feel like a real man

Formless God

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #788 on: February 10, 2010, 05:50:45 AM »
Welcome among the ranks :). You even started out with the best one 8)! Might i suggest PCB Lunatic next?

No, do MoF and IN first :V

What is your definition of a 'fun' stage anyway?

- Anything from MoF.
- IN Stage 5 and UFO Stage 4 (more pure dodging than streaming, and not too much bullshit).
- Human vs. Youkai.

Speaking of IN Stage 5 ... Perfected Tewi. Her opener SEEMS to have a safespot, but I'm not too sure ...

Bananamatic

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #789 on: February 10, 2010, 03:44:52 PM »

Helion

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #790 on: February 10, 2010, 04:09:34 PM »
UFO Stage 4 (more pure dodging than streaming, and not too much bullshit).
Hello fairies that spawn columns of random pink shrapnel? This man hasn't had enough.

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #791 on: February 10, 2010, 09:52:03 PM »
Tried EoSD Lunatic out of curiosity. Game over'd just before Patchy appeared, mostly because I kept getting clipped in Stage 3.

This is noticeably easier than UFO Hard :V

Formless God

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #792 on: February 10, 2010, 11:48:20 PM »
Hello fairies that spawn columns of random pink shrapnel? This man hasn't had enough.

The first pink shrapnel spam almost never hits you unless you stand still, and if the pre-boss one gives you too much trouble just summon an UFO. There should be plenty of them floating around >_>

Demonstration maybe

1 bomb at post-Midboss!Nue fairies and 1 miss right after that, but that part can be safespotted. I could've missed a few pixels.
And ignore that lousy Murasa fight, I've just woken up :V

Sooo ... I guess the achievement for today is perfecting those last 3 stage patterns. I've never actually done that before :V
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 11:49:55 PM by Formless God »

ebarrett

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #793 on: February 11, 2010, 04:58:50 AM »
EoSD lunatic 1cc. Still failed both of the non-directional lasers: bombed the first and died with two bombs in stock to the second.  :V

Only SA and UFO remaining..... but lol me 1cc'ing SA or UFO.



(edit: also died to the end-of-stage-4 fairies for the nth time. what's the trick, anyway? you can shoot any of them down instantly, but then the other two become almost invincible or something, I know I'm missing something)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 05:02:17 AM by ebarrett »

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #794 on: February 11, 2010, 05:09:04 AM »
(edit: also died to the end-of-stage-4 fairies for the nth time. what's the trick, anyway? you can shoot any of them down instantly, but then the other two become almost invincible or something, I know I'm missing something)

Shoot the middle fairy until it's near death but don't kill it, then when the popcorn enemies start raining shit down, kill the fairies from left to right.  It might take some practice to get the timing down.

Congrats on the 1cc too.  To be honest, SA's Lunatic is a bit easier than EoSD's, at least if you take the time to memorize everything.

ebarrett

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #795 on: February 11, 2010, 07:11:16 AM »
take the time to memorize everything
lol taking the time to memorize everything

I was already annoyed at the time spent with EoSD lunatic, and the 1cc was only the fourth run to not ragequit before Remilia this week (granted, there were quite a lot of very early ragequits plus the occasional not-quite-early ones), and the second time I ever reached lunatic Scarlet Gensokyo without continuing (the first being a couple of days ago, on the second run this week). I had made about a dozen stage 6 practice runs last week, but all I learned was "arrive there with at least two spare lives and bomb pretty much everything".  :V

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #796 on: February 11, 2010, 10:08:22 AM »
Fast, nonstop action, no bullshit(st5 UFO).
Touhou is slow as hell with inconsistent difficulty(st5 PCB is a joke, st5 UFO is ridiculous, st5 SA is...eh)

Inconsistent difficulty is true enough but i would rather have stages be different from each other. My experiences with DDP had me spend every stage streaming pink bullets and a few blue bullets every once in a while and it would be all streaming.

First off, though, as for the colour palette; this is a non-issue for me, as I play shmups for the gameplay rather than the graphics.

I suppose the gameplay is the most important part of any game but i still hate when games have repetitive colours. It doesn't matter if it is Fallout 3 with its all-grey landscapes and buildings or DDP with its pink bullets all over the place.

If i have to play through the same levels again and again i will get bored almost instantaneously if they aren't beautiful and require you to employ tactics aside from streaming. It helps with different music too. DDP only has three for six stages. They aren't bad songs but it just makes things more repetitive.

No, do MoF and IN first :V

Doesn't really matter which one he picks. MoF can be bomb spammed and IN is sort of easy but PCB Lunatic is easier. I dunno if its because PCB S4 is easier than IN S4. Maybe its just my experience as i relied on death-bombing for the majority of my IN Lunatic 1cc which would consume 2 bombs instead of 1 thus giving me less bombs to use.

Quote
- Anything from MoF.
- IN Stage 5 and UFO Stage 4 (more pure dodging than streaming, and not too much bullshit).
- Human vs. Youkai.

Human vs. Youkai? What are you talking about? Also, UFO Stage 4 is one of the few positive things i can find about UFO. Its pretty fun. :)
What's so great about MoF Stages?


Bananamatic

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #797 on: February 11, 2010, 01:35:59 PM »
Inconsistent difficulty is true enough but i would rather have stages be different from each other. My experiences with DDP had me spend every stage streaming pink bullets and a few blue bullets every once in a while and it would be all streaming.
It works, so why not?

Ragnarok

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #798 on: February 11, 2010, 03:53:25 PM »
yeah won against Patchouli at hard without loosing a live

on the other hand i played terrible against cirno (i lost a live), meiling... and sakuya^^
DIE CIRCULAR DANMAKU DIE
Touhou 7.5 1cc Lunatic !!!
Touhou 6 1cc Hard !
Touhou 2-5 7-12 1cc Normal

Bananamatic

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #799 on: February 11, 2010, 04:02:40 PM »
finally captured Hypnotism lunatic and needle mountain lunatic

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #800 on: February 11, 2010, 04:52:15 PM »
Inconsistent difficulty is true enough but i would rather have stages be different from each other. My experiences with DDP had me spend every stage streaming pink bullets and a few blue bullets every once in a while and it would be all streaming.

If i have to play through the same levels again and again i will get bored almost instantaneously if they aren't beautiful and require you to employ tactics aside from streaming. It helps with different music too. DDP only has three for six stages. They aren't bad songs but it just makes things more repetitive.

This whole 'Cave stages suck because they're all streaming' argument is really dumb tbh.  You can't compare Cave streaming with Touhou streaming.  In Cave games, the aimed shots all have an element of randomness (either in their rate of fire or where they're aimed) that forces you to a.) move a lot around the screen to misdirect them and b.) quickly read the gaps as you change directions. 

Touhou stages are much more uniform in design and contain just as much streaming as Cave stages, but their aimed shots are almost always just straight lines of bullets aimed right at your hitbox that you can dodge just by tapping to the side at the bottom of the screen.  Once you make that distinction, you will realize that DDP stage 6 contains more raw dodging than all of the stages in EoSD combined.

And Cave games aren't beautiful?  lol wut?  There's more to shmup designs/aesthetics than the color of bullet patterns dude.  Look at the backgrounds once in a while.  Listen to the awesome explosions.  Watch that giant laser as it destroys hordes of enemies in a single sweep.  If that's not art, I don't know what is. :V

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #801 on: February 11, 2010, 05:57:48 PM »
Perfect Youmu Lunatic

This whole 'Cave stages suck because they're all streaming' argument is really dumb tbh.

It might be very different from Touhou streaming but it is still streaming. I would just for now focus on Stage 1 and 2 of DDP. Basically it is flying back and forth on the screen and it goes on forever. Boring. Later, the stages become harder and longer. But i don't like long stages. Especially not when all they contain are pink aimed waves of bullets. It doesn't really matter what shape or how the waves look.

It's not like i'm complaining about lack of difficulty because its certainly hard enough. Its just boring in its design. The only reason i would play the game is for the boss fights but they are so short. Basically i would love the game if just the boss:stage ratio was swapped. I think.

EDIT: I tried the game today. Had to quit in Stage 5 as things were getting dull but i found myself a new grudge. The relentless waves of enemies are very good at pushing me into corners and if i try to find a gap to go through i risk losing one of the three lives i am granted because bombing have to be done quite a while in advance.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 06:25:34 PM by Zengeku »

DgBarca

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #802 on: February 11, 2010, 05:59:49 PM »
Is EoSD the easiest hard mode, is yes I rage if no I can't understand why I can't 1cc all the others
[21:16] <redacted> dgbarca makes great work
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Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #803 on: February 11, 2010, 06:13:25 PM »
Holy crap. I just 1cc'd SA on hard... somehow. And less than a week ago I thought this was a very long way off, since I find the later games SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult than the earlier ones. Went into stage 5 with 5 lives. Came out with 1. Somehow I managed to stretch this (plus 1 extend) long enough to beat Utsuho. I'm beginning to think that Orin may be more difficult, overall, than Utsuho herself.

Interestingly, despite this accomplishment, I still cannot reach Koishi consistently >.>

Gah, so tense there at the end. Need to breathe...

Sapz

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #804 on: February 11, 2010, 06:26:05 PM »
Perfect Youmu Lunatic

It might be very different from Touhou streaming but it is still streaming. I would just for now focus on Stage 1 and 2 of DDP.
Congrats on the Youmu battle.

As for the DDP topic... what you have to remember with a DDP run is that it's not like a Touhou run where you select the difficulty. If you want a comparison, Stage 1 would be comparable with a Touhou stage 1 on Normal, and I doubt you can honestly tell me that you find PCB Normal Stage 1 a thrill-ride. :P Stage 2 and 3, similarly, are more like Hard mode, with 3 creeping into Lunatic and the rest of the game staying there (and possibly a little bit higher on Stage 6).

As for the stage:boss ratio thing, that's kind of understandable, but it seems like more of a mindset thing to me than an actual increase in quality at the boss sections. I originally had a similar mindset when I'd just started out with DDP and the Touhou series having been my only shmups (i.e. going through the stage while constantly looking forward to the boss where the real challenge usually is). Having played it a lot, though, I find some of the stage sections are actually more fun than their respective bosses. Stage 4 (and possibly Stage 6), for example.

Aside from that, I agree with Azinth on pretty much every point he makes. I don't think you'd be able to find a Touhou stage section that's even close to as interesting as DDP Stage 6. Seriously, give that stage a few attempts and tell me it's just simple pink aimed bullets.

Having said all that... I think we should drop this discussion now before this thread derails any further. :V
Let's fight.

fallensoul

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #805 on: February 11, 2010, 06:28:34 PM »
So...
I 1cc'd SA Lunatic with all shot types.

Now trying UFO Hard... but it seems harder than SA Lunatic...
Why?

Anyways~
All my accomplishments till now:
1cc Lunatic and Extra Clears, with all shot types (all teams in IN): SoEW, LLS, MS, EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF and SA.


(uh... there's sometime since the last time I came here...)

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #806 on: February 11, 2010, 06:29:17 PM »
Depends on your skillset.

I still haven't 1cc'd Mystic Square, EoSD, or PCB on Hard, yet I've 1cc'd SA Lunatic. Now I can 1cc them on Hard, I just haven't managed them yet. I find UFO Hard harder than most Lunatics and therefore haven't 1cc'd it either.

PCB is definitely one of the easy Hard modes if you can properly time boards and probably one of the harder ones if you can't.

MoF and SA are pretty easily memorized and give you a lot of resources. LLS is just a joke in difficulty anyway on anything lower than Lunatic or Extra.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 06:31:23 PM by Enigma »

DgBarca

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #807 on: February 11, 2010, 06:53:59 PM »
Did I do good for my first time seeing UFO Hard ? (UFO Hard Sign "Bomb Everything and that Red UFO wait what that's wrong")
Also, I find Murasa pre-to-last spell easier that normal, the gaps are more easy the see.
Captured Murasa last spell first try :V
In UFO, if I don't die like an epic fail, I die like an ass on the boss (died 5 times on Murasa NORMAL once)

Or UFO hard get heretic just at shou ?
[21:16] <redacted> dgbarca makes great work
[21:16] <redacted> i hope he'll make a full game once

Formless God

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #808 on: February 11, 2010, 06:56:16 PM »
In fact Orin is probably the hardest boss in SA :V

'Grats on that Hard 1cc. I haven't had the guts to try it ... yet ._.

color of bullet patterns, the backgrounds, the awesome explosions, that giant laser

If that's not art, I don't know what is. :V

The bullet patterns. Color doesn't matter (why would it anyway ?)
Besides Good Omen and BoWaP are both pink :V

Human vs. Youkai?

PoFV. Losing to a CPU in Match Mode is less rageworthy IMO.

What's so great about MoF Stages?

Streaming No lasers, no borders, no familiars / human-youkai meter, no scope, no graze to collect items (I guess this means less bullet density), and no UFOs. It's like another EoSD, only much better thanks to the new engine :V

Re: Touhou Accomplishments VI
« Reply #809 on: February 11, 2010, 07:06:48 PM »
What he said.

Yes, let's conclude this. There really isn't more to be said anyway. And no. I can probably not find a Touhou stage with the same level of intensity as S6 in DDP. Simply put you can say that DDP just doesn't have the same addicting effect on me that Touhou has. Yeah, that's probably it. Nothing wrong with DDP, i understand that now. It was nice to get this talked over though. :)

Besides Good Omen and BoWaP are both pink :V

Yes they certainly are. :) But Mercury Poison is blue and yellow and VoWG has 5 different colors iirc.
I wanna die by beautiful stuff. Its probably because i'm weird.


Quote
Streaming No lasers, no borders, no familiars / human-youkai meter, no scope, no graze to collect items (I guess this means less bullet density), and no UFOs. It's like another EoSD, only much better thanks to the new engine :V

That certainly is understandable.