The PNP-Theory: Drug Abuse in Gensokyo

[Shanghai Alice]

No, actually, I didn't.

Because I fail.

I'm still adapting to the way ya'll do things here.

My other board is a lot more... FFA on questions.

The simple fact that I fail at life is one you must get used to.

[Dead Princess Sakana]

It's alright, I didn't mean it in a bad way.
If you've got the time, read this thread, we've made some shocking theories and even got proof from the games  :V

Just remember that there are often threads that derail a long way from their original intent (and this one is actually a minor example, as we stayed quite close to the original question), so you should always check what the hell people are doing there at the moment. Don't let thread titles deceive you  :V

You'll get used to it soon. I did, despite not having any experience with boards before.


Also: I once again ask wether there are still points do discuss. There were no more comments on the last statements we had, so are we done for now?
Or is it just that busy christmas days have started and you guys want to theorize more once it calms down?

[Shanghai Alice]

Err... Okies! Thanks!

I don't have time to read it all right now, but skimming through the first page or two, I'll have to give it a read later on...

[mew77]

Sakana I think this theory is pretty solid as is.

Perhaps we could finish the write up on this theory and then find a new theory to discuss after the christmas season.

The PNP(Power and Point) Theory; Drug Abuse in Gensokyo
(Note this is just a brief summary..a full write up will take place some later date)
(here's a general structure we could use)
Basic Overview
The girls are addicted to PNP, which has since become a prime motivator for investigating incidents.
Origin
Probably with the world, I'm too lazy at the moment to reread the thread to find out exactly what it is. Sakana you could do this part because i honestly don't remember what we decided on for this.
(nevermind found it)
According to Naito, the magic in Gensokyo is declining over time, and the only creature that can still absorb it are faeries. For a youkai to gain power, they have to then kill faeries and take the absorbed magic for themselves. When a faerie is "ripe", the youkai will kill it and the magic energy inside it becomes PNP and is absorbed by the youkai.

Gentlemen, we have discovered an actual food chain in Gensokyo! The fairies and F.O.E.'s are the plants, the lesser youkai (stage 1-3 bosses) are the herbivores and the greater youkai (stage 4-6+X bosses) are carnivores. The player characters are omnivores!
Method of Retrieval
PNP is gathered by just about every living creature that uses magic, which includes faeries, human magicians, youkai magicians, youkai, dieties, and especially shrine maidens. Frankly the only being that doesn't actively gather it is rinnosuke. PNP is absorbed by the characters via magic and the energy is stored as option shots or the hitbox. PNP is released when a faerie is killed. Some beings also have a hard time holding on to it, and release small amounts of it when attacked.
Interestingly PNP attracts more PNP, and as the time flies by, more and more PNP is stored up. This is why in the more recent games the characters can POC without max power. The exact increase is unknown, but according to this diagram:  http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f299/mew777/Noseriously.jpg
The increase is likely substantial.

Effects: Grants the user greater power, this power manifests in the form of option shots and can be released in concentrated bursts as bombs. The points grant extra lives as one collects enough of them, but how exactly this works I'm not sure.

Detriments: PNP abusers love the rush of energy the stuff gives them and so find reasons to get more. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, faeries are a plentiful renewable source of PNP. The results aren't hard to predict: http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab98/Twilight0402/FairyStalked.jpg
And this is bound to happen a lot. Just think, why is the red-white miko so eager to investigate new incidents? Faeries tend to collect PNP like it was candy.

Side Effects: Youkai like obtaining this as it seems to be a key part of their evolution. I'll let OkashiNaito explain: http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6930/wriggleevoltion.jpg

Three major side effects noted by Okashi

OkashiNaito: Regarding the effects of the drug and it's addictiveness, I think they aren't really like normal drugs. They don't cause a real high, just slight delusions of grandeur. They resemble steroids more than anything, since they both function to power the person up, not to give them a pleasurable feeling (atleast not directly). Not sure if the PNP itself is biologically addictive, but I can sure bet the power that comes with it defiantly is!(mentally then, not biologically) Especially Marisa shows traits of thirst for power.
Three Signs
Sign One: Reimu's sickenly yellow skin color she has in MoF. Tough seen as a coloring failure by ZUN, it might have more meaning to it. According to the Gensokyo timeline on Touhou Wiki, there is a two year gap between PoFV and MoF. In between this time, without any incidents, Reimu hardly had any possibilities to hunt youkai, and thus gather PNP. In that time, she had a extreme shortage of PNP. Because her body has become addicted to PNP, it started to attain an unhealthy skin color from lack of PNP, resembling going cold turkey in real life.

Sign Two: Sakuya's bust size. Like we have concluded, gathering alot of PNP in a short amount of time let's the body grow. Youkai even go from childlike to mature with enough PNP. Meanwhile Sakuya's cup size differs vastly between games, being flat in 6, 7, 8 and 9, but sporting cleavage in the fighting games. Tough the fans have explained this with the notion that she wears pads, maybe the body growth resulting from PNP consumption is the true culprit. Sakuya may be human, but the PNP could still have some youkai like side effects on humans. Think about it. Before 7.5 came along, she had enough time in 6 and 7 to collect large amounts of PNP, and she uses knifes, not magic bullets, so she doesn't use up even near as much energy as Reimu and Marisa. The PNP started to build up in her body, and as a rather comical side effect, it mainly collected in her breasts. This resulted in her noticeable bust in the fighting games. During the fighting games she got beaten up so hard she lost her PNP making her lose her cup size. During 8, 9 and 10 she had more than enough time again to collect more PNP to build up her bust for 10.5 and 12.3.

Sign Three: Character ageing. Though many years have passed in between the games, ZUN himself stated that Reimu and Marisa are still 16 years old. They should be twenty according to the timeline, yet they are still mid-teens. Perhaps the PNP is having youkai side effects on them too, and it is starting to slow or even stop their ageing?



I'm pretty sure I missed a bunch of things, but this is only a start on the write up to come.
The write up continues...

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Okay, let's wrap it up for now! Otsukaresama~

So as i see it, Mew, do you wanna do the write-up? You already seem to have ideas on how to do it.

The basic structure looks good to me, you should be able to fit most of our stuff into that categories.
If you want to leave any parts to someone else, just say so (probably that could be the case for the evolution, as that was mostly done by Naito)

And I find it really neat that you seem to plan to use the pictures each one of us  contributed. 
I look forward to seeing the final result.

[mew77]

Actually I don't think I can do the write-up alone.

You two will have to help me.

Luckily there's no rush to get it done.

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Alright, at your service. I'll try to gather what we have, and maybe try to divide it into the categories, over the holidays so we can get to work after christmas.

[mew77]

So until then...May drunken game gods haunt your dreams

And this thread has been the best forum discussion I've had in a long time.

[OkashiiKisei]

And again you've been busy while I was gone! Sorry I haven't replied in a while, I was sleeping over at a friend's house.

Good summary mew77, but perhaps there needs to be a bit more explanation regarding the evolution lines. I'd be more than happy to fulfill those parts of the project.

Also, mew, the points regarding the hitbox size increase are brilliant! They really do show that the girls are gathering more and more power.

And indeed mew, it would be best if we split the work up and be assigned with individual parts. I could also make some additional drawings to explain some points. And ocourse I still need to make evolution lines for the magicians, dieties and celestials.

But I'm sorry to tell you guys that starting from this Friday I'll be gone for a week on ski vacation to the Alps. I don't think I'll be able to contribute to the work or post additional ideas in the mean time I hope this doesn't disrupt your ideas

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Hey, enjoy your vacation and ski carefully, Naito 

We've got all the time of the world, so waiting till you're back won't be a problem. I'm looking forward to more of your drawings, maybe I'll try to make some for other points of the theory myself.

[OkashiiKisei]

Say, Sakana, we may have almost everything, but if over a week (when I come back) we get another idea/supporting argument, do we have to revive this thread? I can imagine that a week of non activity might make this thread dead, and it might annoy the mods if we revive it. But it would too mch of a chore to transfer all our notions to a new thread. What do you think?

Also, you requested I make an evolution line for Patchy and Utsuho, but both are somewhat special cases. Patchy is born an youkai magician, so she already starts out at level 3 (intermediate magician). And I don't really know at which stage Utsuho currently is. She could just be a souped up mature, but maybe, thanks to the three legged crow, she already jumped all the way to supreme. She already looks pretty complex and powerful. I need to know this so I can figure out in which stage I need to draw her current form. It's going to be hard to design an perfection stage for the Touhou girl who already has an dimensional cape, a demon chest eye and huge wings.

[Dead Princess Sakana]

I think as long as it's still about this theory, more posting after one week of inactivity won't bother anyone.
Especially since we're announcing it like this right now  :V

If we were to start something completely different, then a new thread would be better, but it's not needed as long as we aren't completely done here. Rather I think making a new thread for the same stuff would have a better chance of annoying mods.
It's mainly you, Mew and me that use this thread now anyway, though judging from the views quite a few people were watching our progress 

Btw, you should save this thread anyway for further work, just hit the 'Print' button near the top of the page and Save the print version you get.

Also, on Patchy and Utsuho, you're right, they're special cases. I just mentioned them because they're my two favourite characters  :V
I'll think about how Utsuho could fit into the evolution, but if we don't find a good way, you can drop my request.

[OkashiiKisei]

Well, I'm back from vacation again, but I'm not really sure what to add anymore to this theory. Tough Mew77 did say in the 'If you were a resident of Gensokyo' thread that the evolution lines weren't officialy established yet, I thought I made them pretty clear. I mean, I already did make a simple diagram of them and a few drawings about them, what's still confusing about it?

Tough, on the other hand, the lines may not be so complete after all.... there are some Touhous who pretty much fall outside the lines. Meiling is quite obviously mature, but she's nothing compared to her mistresses, Flandre and Remilia, who are still loli's. What makes them so much more powerful than Meiling at such an early state? Maybe they started out as more powerful beings, but they started out as normal bats, what's weaker than that? Meiling should have started out as a damn twig if she's still so weak at her stage!

(Yes, I know Letty is a stage 1 boss and noticably mature, but it is hinted she isn't using her full power (atleast I heard someone say that), and Meiling is clearly giving the best she got)

Also, how big do fairies grow? We've established they go from doll size to kid size when battling/possessing large amounts of PNP. But what about the legendary Daidarabotchi? A kaiju-sized fairy! Is it possible for a fairy to get that big when they survive long enough? Destroying Daidarabotchi would result in a PNP avalanche! (Hmmm...using Daidarabotchi as the catalyst in a PNP-theory oriented story might be a not so bad idea) Also, tough most fairies shrink back to doll size when they respawn after being destroyed, Cirno and Lily White appear to stay kid sized, even after so many losses. Maybe some fairies are born bigger than others, and are thus (relatively) way stronger and able to process more PNP? This may be the case...

Also, might some residents of Gensokyo abuse these evolutionary lines? I can imagine Sakuya preventing her mistresses from becoming mature by putting holy water in their food or exposing them to sunlight so they lose PNP. Otherwise Sakuya might lose her valuable loli's. Same goes for Ran preventing Chen's evolution. :V

Oh, looks like a managed to add some questions and theories after all :V

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Welcome back, Naito.

Damn, that's a lot of stuff you got there. So the evolution lines are gonna need some work now?
Let the fun continue, yay~

I myself liked the evolution lines we had established, so I'll stick to them for now.

With that premise, let's see what using it on all your examples would mean.

First of all, Meiling and her mistresses. It could be explained if we assume that the evolution can be controlled and held back with willpower. That means once a being has collected enough PNP to evolve, it can forcefully supress the evolution and instead stay in its momentary form. That would allow that being to become a lot more powerfull than other beings of a higher evolution level. In Remilia's case that would mean that she forcefully supressed her evolution to mature form (for unknown reasons) and stayed in her loli form. But she still continued to gather PNP and therefore power over a time of 500 years. That would easily make her a lot stronger than many other mature or even bishoujo beings.
However being able to control the effects of PNP to that amount would mean she had a ridiculous amount of willpower, and I don't know if we should just accept it as that.

Now let's move on to the fairies.
Actually we could drop Daidarabotchi, as it is supposed to be a youkai, not a fairy, and it's only a legend at that.
But that would be no fun, so how about that: I suppose we might just consider fairies a kind of youkai as well for the moment. Let's say that, when Cirno spoke of the Daidarabotchi, she actually thought of a giant fairy. But noone has ever seen it and everyone besides Cirno didn't seem to have heard about it either.
So my guess is: The legend of Daidarabotchi is a legend among fairies only. It is a legend about a giant fairy that is stronger than anything else. We know that fairies are lowest in Gensokyo's food-chain, but still sentient beings, even if their minds are simple. So once upon a time some fairies might have thought up the legend of a giant fairy whose strength surpasses that of youkai, gods, celestials etc. to distract themselves from the hopelessness and tragedy of their existence.
So in short, Daidarabotchi would be the legend about a super-fairy that can save all fairykind from their misery.
As for how that would relate to PNP, you summed it up already: Avalanche of PNP. It would also suggest that fairies have no evolution, because with that amount of PNP Daidarabotchi would certainly have evolved if it could. Instead, fairies just grow bigger and bigger.

As for different fairy-sizes, I agree with your explanation. Some might just be born bigger. Maybe that could also be considered a kind of mutation. Those special fairies are, as you said, capable of storing more PNP, thus becoming more powerful. They also seem to have better mental capabilities. And as such they are very likely to be regarded as a leader by their smaller fairy companions, which is the case for Cirno iirc. That position of being a rare and superior case amongst her own species might also be the reason why Cirno calls herself 'the strongest'. It is certainly true when you compare her to the rest of her kind.

It is also possible to explain why those special fairies are still weak compared to other beings: Even though they are stronger, they only produce PNP in their own bodies instead of collecting it in other ways. Because hunting for PNP would mean they would have to kill members of their own species. They might still take the PNP from youkai when they manage to beat them in battle though.
I realize that it can be argued that Cirno has been killing other fairies, namely in PoFV. I would simply suppose she was on a especially strong PNP-induced high at that time, which was clouding her perception. That way it can also be explained why she was able to fight on par with characters that are normally a number of times stronger than herself.

As for the abuse of evolution lines, that would relate to the first question again (can someone become stronger without evolving?), so if we can answer that one we might be able to answer this here as well.

Now then, let the criticism start   

[Toasty]

Girls only theory = disgea based nonsense. (in reality, it's "zun prefers lolis")

What you call "the capability to store and expand" in females, breast growth and pregnancy, males are capable of at least one. Breast growth is GROWTH, not being filled up with something. By that logic, men, who can get quite fat, are great at taking in PnP. Pregnancy is a baby growing inside a woman, causing a bulge, pretty much stretching her flesh over 9 months. Men with stomach tumors can survive similar stretches, although the tumor never comes out without surgery.

The body of a man is not that different than that of a woman, especially in loli/shota form where the main difference is reproductive systems. There is nothing suggesting males cannot store pnp. However, there is a huge lack of male youkai in gensyoko - or, to be excact, very few male youkai have challenged our heroines, except for unzan, who, although powerfull enough to stand alone as a stage 2-3 boss, is sadly slaved to that danmaku flinging nun.

This brings me to another point - competitive personalities. The most powerfull characters in the series, including our two heroines on their way to youkaidom and godhood, are competetive jerks who will stop at nothing to get what they want. Rinnosuke, our main example of a free-to-go-about male youkai, is peacefull and mostly aids people - and unzan never fights for himself as well.

Conclusion? Male youkai tend to be far less competitve than female youkai, and therefore don't even bother with the sillyness of PnP. Interestingly, in real world situations, mature, adult males that do not have the emotional developement of a 3 year old are similar to our model of a male youkai, although the worries of economics induce a bit of competition. I can imagine rinnosuke engaging in risky buisiness deals every day - only he has no economical competition. (sadly, mature males are relatively rare in this society)

You can relate: If you entered gensyoko, would you rather kill all of those sentient creatures of sapien or near sapien intelligence, all of them potential friends, and take their power, or would you befriend people, and live a happy life without constant conflict? If you don't have the heart to destroy a possibility for a happy life just so you can boss people around and shoot lasers, you're in the same group as reimu.

Q.E.D: Your old idea: Female youkai are the most powerfull, because storing pnp is their specialty, what, you know, because they have boobs. My new better idea: No matter your gender, your body is just as capable of storing PnP. Thus, only more competetive youkai and humans become powerfull, while the peacefull ones stay weaker out of no want or need for combat.

[OkashiiKisei]

Girls only theory = disgea based nonsense. (in reality, it's "zun prefers lolis")

Conclusion? Male youkai tend to be far less competitve than female youkai, and therefore don't even bother with the sillyness of PnP. Interestingly, in real world situations, mature, adult males that do not have the emotional developement of a 3 year old are similar to our model of a male youkai, although the worries of economics induce a bit of competition. I can imagine rinnosuke engaging in risky buisiness deals every day - only he has no economical competition. (sadly, mature males are relatively rare in this society)

You can relate: If you entered gensyoko, would you rather kill all of those sentient creatures of sapien or near sapien intelligence, all of them potential friends, and take their power, or would you befriend people, and live a happy life without constant conflict? If you don't have the heart to destroy a possibility for a happy life just so you can boss people around and shoot lasers, you're in the same group as reimu.

Q.E.D: Your old idea: Female youkai are the most powerfull, because storing pnp is their specialty, what, you know, because they have boobs. My new better idea: No matter your gender, your body is just as capable of storing PnP. Thus, only more competetive youkai and humans become powerfull, while the peacefull ones stay weaker out of no want or need for combat.

*Bows down head* I'm so sorry

This little notion looked a little edgy to me too when I wrote it down at first, but then I thought, 'aww what the heck' and added it anyway. The way you describe it makes it look a lot worse.... and makes me look like an ignorant jerk.
I really should stop comparing Disgaea and Touhou.....
Tough, I never said that males couldn't store PNP at all, only less efficiently. But you proved it wrong anyway.

Regarding the peacefullness/competiveness factor: Brilliant, sir. Rinnosuke is indeed a good example for this. Not everyone wants to be a destructive being ofcourse...
Tough I thought males could be pretty violent and power hungry if they wanted too....

Also, the relation question: ......is that a trick question? :V (Yes, I'm a horrible, horrible being). But, though I am very power hungry, I guess my heart wouldn't allow me to slay a fairy/youkai when it is standing in front of me, with it's big, loli eyes. Friendship and love is greater than power and wealth.

But overall, an extremely good contribution, Mr. Toast, and thank you.

[OkashiiKisei]

Also, returning to you Sakana, a very well established theory. I asked a similiar question earlier in this thread ('can youkai transform back to previous forms whenever they wanted?'), and this might connect to it. It also makes the evolution lines stay consistent, and saves us from rethinking them. We just need to ask Mew77 what he thinks is wrong with them. Staying at an certain stage (and powering it up far beyond it's normal capabilities) is understandable. One might just prefer one form.
Remilia has already shown to be able to transform all the way back to a normal vampire bat, so this might indicate she's already at a far greater stage, but just stays loli for personal preferences *cough*getting pampered by Sakuya*cough*. Another possibility is that she's currently at a stage she thoroughly dislikes, like the monster stage. Seeing the dark, gory nature of vampires, her monster form probably won't be a pretty sight..... it's obvious she would like to stay at a more comfortable form in that case....

Regarding why fairies don't take PNP from other fairies, I think it would be something akin to cannibalism if fairies hunted each other. Might explain why Cirno hasn't bothered the main heroes for a while: she was recovering/having psychological therapy for her awful deeds she performed in PoFV. And I can indeed imagine the bigger fairies to be leaders.

[Dead Princess Sakana]

standing in front of me, with it's big, loli eyes

Gah, I can't get that image out of my mind now. It's just too cute~


As for Toast's part: Acknowledged. I didn't really notice when Naito made the comment about storing PNP in breasts and so on before, but yeah, personalities make more sense. Though I wouldn't completely dismiss the theory that women are, physically or mentally, able to better adapt to PNP and its uses. Personality alone wouldn't explain why the number of men is THAT small. Maybe Gensokyo is just more suitable for women because it was created by one (with the creation of the great Hakurei border)?

Naito: You're right, you asked the transformation question before and we just pretty much ignored it then. I have to admit I always just thought of animal-forms and the likes, not of a transformation from mature to loli etc.
I would like to vote for "Remilia has already entered bishoujo stage, but prefers loli-form"-theory then. (If we accept the 'pampered by Sakuya' as well then we just discovered the greatest Charisma Break ever  :V)
Though I like the "she hates her monster-form"-theory as well. As we won't be able to prove either one we should just keep both as our official possibilities.

And yay to fairy-theory. The image of Cirno discovering the blood-bath she created after PoFV and despairing about it is an interesting thought. It would also make her a pretty deep charater, eh?

[mew77]

Tough Mew77 did say in the 'If you were a resident of Gensokyo' thread that the evolution lines weren't officialy established yet

MY issue wit hthe evolution is that it's not official until we write it all down. The pic explain pretty much everything I need to know about the evolution lines, but it somehow feels less developed than the rest of the theory. It's prabably just me. In the end I was really just joking about your attempt at godhood on that thread.

About the potential holes in the evolution lines

Perhaps it's like pokemon, where one can choose not to evolve to a higher state. Because with all the PNP marisa and Reimu are getting they should have transcended humanness by this point. And as for others, I

Also, returning to you Sakana, a very well established theory. I asked a similiar question earlier in this thread ('can youkai transform back to previous forms whenever they wanted?'), and this might connect to it. It also makes the evolution lines stay consistent, and saves us from rethinking them. We just need to ask Mew77 what he thinks is wrong with them. Staying at an certain stage (and powering it up far beyond it's normal capabilities) is understandable. One might just prefer one form.
Remilia has already shown to be able to transform all the way back to a normal vampire bat, so this might indicate she's already at a far greater stage, but just stays loli for personal preferences *cough*getting pampered by Sakuya*cough*. Another possibility is that she's currently at a stage she thoroughly dislikes, like the monster stage. Seeing the dark, gory nature of vampires, her monster form probably won't be a pretty sight..... it's obvious she would like to stay at a more comfortable form in that case....

I do agree about waht you say about Remilia, although I still think it's like pokemon where one can choose not to evolve. As for turning back to previous forms...it doesn't seem as supportable as the rest of the evolution theory.

IN the end, don't take my comment on the If you were a resident thread so seriously. I was mainly pointing out flaws in yoiur bid for godhood. The evolution theory is for the most part sound.

Anything else?

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Because with all the PNP marisa and Reimu are getting they should have transcended humanness by this point.

Hm, good point. While it may be irrelevant for Reimu as a human without evolution stages, at least as long as she doesn't die and can become a god after that, if I remember correctly Naito set an evolution line for magicians. In that case we would either have to accept the conscious evolution block or we have to modify the magician's evolution line accordingly.
I have to ask though, are there any other examples of characters which should have evolved according to our theories but definitely couldn't have in canon?
Because if there aren't any others (especially on the magician line) then maybe we could use a little trick and explain Marisa's non-evolution with something that is special for her, her shrooms. Or there might be other possible factors that make her different from others, be free to speculate.

My problem with the "evolution-blocking"-theory right now is that it makes the characters far too powerful in the control of PNP-effects. I like what we have established up to now and how it literally controls the flow of events in Gensokyo. Accepting that any individual can consciously supress the strongest effect of PNP, the evolution, would lower its significance fat roo much in my eyes.

[mew77]

I understand that concern...but it's the current simplest way to explain why certain humans haven't transecended as well as youkai.

Does it make the character too strong...maybe the evolution is a voluntary process.

Once the creature has enough stored PNP they can choose to undergo an evolution.

Gensokyo has been around since 1884 according to the wiki, so it is possible for characters to develop that sort of control during that time.

[OkashiiKisei]

Well, the Perfect Memento's DID state that to reach a new magician stage, you need to follow a few requirements. The requirement to go from normal human to human magician (lesser magician) is to just learn magic. But for a human to truly become a youkai magician (intermediate magician), is to learn the ability to overcome the need for food. Quite a handy trait if I say so myself, especially for someone like Patchy (who can then concentrate non stop on her studying without any interferences from hunger). But I can imagine that it is pretty hard to abandon the need for food. Marisa and Reimu might also be too attached to food to really give it up.

To ascend to Greater Magician, one needs to learn to ability to stay calm, and never lose your temper (something I can imagine Patchy to have succeeded in long ago, if it weren't for Marisa's and the SDM's aggrivating hijinks). Only this way can a magician become eternally young.
Marisa and Reimu will never succeed in this. Ever. They're just too big hot heads!

Perhaps normal youkai also have these requirments, which might explain why some are still at lower stages while they are so powerful or at such high stages when they are so weak. Perhaps vampires like Remilia and Flandre need to overcome their vampire weaknesses to evolve.

Another possibility is that vampires follow a slightly different path. Instead of going to loli to mature to bishoujo, it is the other way around. When looking at Bram Stoker's Dracula (which pretty much established vampires and didn't contain most of it's weaknesses yet), if Dracula hasn't feasted for some time on blood, he gradually grows older, and thus weaker. When he feeds on blood again, he becomes younger, and much, much stronger. Remilia and Flandre have reached the ultimatum of this: they're children, the epitomes of youth, and thus vampiric power. They already are at Supreme stage, but instead of being bishoujo, they are loli. A far weaker vampire would appear much older, which the weakest probably looking like zombies.

I also want to suggest to remove immortals from the magician's evolutionary line. Eirin and the other Lunarians should have reached absolute immortality long, long ago if it could be reached through evolution. Lunarians are still basically Greater Magicians, and after that, probably with another requirement, comes perfection/divinity. But I think it's better to label immortals as a sub group, only achievable with hourai elixer. It would also explain why Kaguya and Mokou are still weaker than Eirin and other lunarians. We can still assume that hourai elixer is a concotion of magic and PNP, but it provides it's own unique stage, combining traits of Greater Magician and Perfection/Divine stage (and even a bit of monster, considering Mokou's phoenix traits).

Also Yuyuko seems to be a unique case too. She's stuck as a ghost, and can't pass on to a new, reincarnated life, or follow the God evolution line. Though this might be explained by the fact that she's bound to the Saigyou Ayakashi.

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Ok, so you're saying we might want to look for other requirements for evolution besides gathering a large amount of PNP? That might indeed be the best path. If it goes on like this we might sooner or later be forced to take apart every single game and every single character and look if they fit into the theory.

As for your thoughts concerning vampires: I kinda doubt that, even though loli-form is a representation of youth, this form is really one that gives a vampire any advantages. I would agree completely if she was in the form of a 18-year old girl, which would provide the best mental and physical abilities. But a loli? If that is a vampire's strongest form, then they're a weird species. I think voluntary change into loli-form is more plausible here.
Her appearance might however change when she does/doesn't consume blood, I don't want to deny that possibility.

Man, I seem to have lost my overview over the evolution lines. So immortals were still in there? I thought you had already bashed them out before. I don't mind taking them out, especially seeing as there are only two confirmed immortals. Though they don't necessarily need an own subgroup. They're, as you said, only a mixture of different traits with added immortality. The Elixir boosts its user to a stage somewhere above monster stage, but it doesn't give them the same amount power that a being that reached that stage through normal evolution might have. That the Elixir's effects are so close to those of PNP is a coincidence. It might be that it was made with magical energy in a way that resembles the way fairies process magic in their bodies.

And now Yuyuko. Now we're getting to the stage where we have to look into the nature of Gensokyo's afterlife. Because there is something else about Yuyuko besides her obviously being stuck in ghost form: her human shape. Most ghosts we have seen in Gensokyo have a diffuse form, like a cloud. Now I agree that she is stuck in ghost form because of her sealed body under the Saigyou Ayakashi and it would be possible to say that she has her human shape for the same reason.
However that would make her situation similar to that of Youmu, half of her being a human body, the other half a ghost. But Youmu's ghost-half Myon doesn't have a certain shape, so why would Yuyuko have one? Now, if my memory serves correctly, we have seen Myon taking Youmu's form in the fighting games, so that might be an ability of half-ghosts. So it might be possible to say that Yuyuko's real form is that of a cloud-ghost as well and she uses her power to maintain human shape, possibly by the use of PNP. There might however be other explanations, so speculate away, guys.

[OkashiiKisei]

Ok, so you're saying we might want to look for other requirements for evolution besides gathering a large amount of PNP? That might indeed be the best path. If it goes on like this we might sooner or later be forced to take apart every single game and every single character and look if they fit into the theory.

Hmmmm...yeah, that's going to be a hefty lot of work..... though maybe there aren't many exceptions (hopefully). We already picked apart many points of the games. Otherwise, we're going to get busy.....

Anyway, regarding the evolution requirements, it can be compared to Pokemon. PNP is the experience, and these requirements are evolution items of certain required abilities. I doubt many youkai kinds need these requirements though, only certain kinds, most prominently the magicians.

If we still take the notion that Remi and Flan are surpressing their forms, it could be possible that lack of fresh blood might force them to return to their real forms (much to Remi's distress). I hope this is more the case than the notion they rapidly age and decay when they lose blood *shiver*

And yes, perhaps immortals don't really need their own sub-group. They're just too rare. They're just an amalgation of various stages combined with immortality, like you stated.

Regarding ghosts: I haven't really realised that. Maybe ghost also have their own little evolutionary line. Since most ghost quickly pass on to the afterlife, they aren't capable of collecting much PNP/developing their forms and abilities. Yuyuko however has been a ghost for ages now, unable to pass on. This has allowed her to collect PNP and develope, resulting in her regaining a human shape. Myon, similliary to my original theory of youkai growing when using their full strength, might be able to temporarily take on human shape for a powerful attack. But otherwise, she remains a gaseous entity. Afterall, Youmu's still young, and is most of the time tending the garden and babysitting Yuyuko. Myon's hasen't been able to attain permanent humanoid form yet because she and Youmu haven't collected much PNP yet. Maybe ghost's also have a little evolutionary line, one which resembles those of the fairies more than normal youkai. While fairies grow bigger, ghosts gradually materialize more. Like how fairies could possibly become gigantic, ghosts could possibly regain complete human form. The fact Yuyuko is completely humanoid proves she's powerful. I mean, her spellcards are insane in PCB! And she has her trademark gamebreaker power.

Perhaps I should make another, more updated graph of the evolution lines, maybe a drawing to accompany it.....

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Hmmmm...yeah, that's going to be a hefty lot of work..... though maybe there aren't many exceptions (hopefully). We already picked apart many points of the games. Otherwise, we're going to get busy.....

I'm not going to force it, but we should tackle any inconsistency that is thrown at us. Like we did in those last posts.
It makes our theory even better than it already is 

Also: Good job on the ghost part! Yes, evolution into human shape works out pretty well. And I didn't even realize that Myon's transformation on special attacks relates directly to the start of this theory. Nice work spotting that.

And I am also able to support your comparison of ghosts and fairies: Ghosts drop PNP too. So obviously ghosts have similar abilities of processing magical energy into PNP that fairies have.
And I would also like to note that it might be possible that a ghost that collects PNP doesn't necessarily evolve into human shape. Because there have been other kinds of enemies besides fairies and FOEs, if I remember correctly. Now those could just be sentient objects that might later become youkai, but I think they appear most in stages that can be related to ghosts in some way (I'll have to look at some replays to look if that is correct).
In that case they might also be evolved ghosts. My theory in that case would be that the evolution from a standard ghost depends on what that ghost was before death. While a human or youkai ghost will evolve to humanoid shape, a FOE ghost might become the kind of enemy I mentioned.
It is however possible for at least fairy ghosts to regain their fairy form when infused with power, as it has been shown by Rin in her spellcards in SA.

And on the notion of Yuyuko's power I would also like to mention that she has one of the biggest options in the series, her giant fan. Adds to your points about her strength.

Perhaps I should make another, more updated graph of the evolution lines, maybe a drawing to accompany it.....

Yes, do that, I'm looking forward to it.
Also, I think I might try to write down a version of the 'Daidarabotchi'-legend that I said fairies might have 

[OkashiiKisei]

Thanks that you like the ghost contribution

Wow, yeah, that giant fan basically IS an option! Wow, my respect for Yuyuko sky rocketed!

And yes, now I realize that ghosts are regular enemies too! Though, if Yuyuko's any indication, they seem to be capable of becoming way stronger than fairies. Though, those 'objects'....what kind of objects really? If it is things like furniture and lanterns, it could just be poltergeists. Though those poltergeists might indeed be evolved ghosts (but not necesserily just FOE ghosts), using an object to boost their power.
I'm still confused however how fairies can have ghosts when they always respawn....perhaps fairies who's facet of nature has been destroyed? Or just evolved ghosts who take the guise of fairies?

Another question: besides FOE's, fairies, UFO's and ghosts, you also have magical runes as enemies, but how do they fit in? They appear to be handmade by the likes of Patchouli and Yukari (Patchy even has living books, but those might just be sentient object youkai), but they also drop PNP. Are they guards made from small amounts of PNP provided by the their creator? Or are they more similliar to our original depictions of UFO's: artificial fairies to collect PNP?

And good idea about the Daidarabotchi legend! Can't wait to read it!

[Dead Princess Sakana]

I'll have a look at what other enemies there are in the games, if there are any, then we'll see if we have to add some special cases. I think I saw wheel-like things somewhere for example. Poltergeists may be a possibility.

Hm, fairy ghosts are difficult I see. But maybe it's easy if we just take into account that they have only appeared on Rin's spellcards so far. And they only appeared there after the player had shot them themselves (or they were killed by Rin if you didn't shoot). I suppose that between the death and respawn of a fairy it exists in some kind of spirit form. As Rin controls evil spirits she might have just taken those freshly killed fairy spirits and transformed them into vengeful fairy spirits/ghosts by use of her own power. I suppose the grudge the fairies held against the girl who killed them should suffice to make a vengeful spirit appear.

On the subject of runes: I would go with your idea of them being guards made by use of PNP. That is because they only appear when a girl intrudes a certain area, which would be weird for something that deliberately gathers PNP.

[mew77]

Hmmmm...yeah, that's going to be a hefty lot of work..... though maybe there aren't many exceptions (hopefully). We already picked apart many points of the games. Otherwise, we're going to get busy.....


If we still take the notion that Remi and Flan are surpressing their forms, it could be possible that lack of fresh blood might force them to return to their real forms (much to Remi's distress). I hope this is more the case than the notion they rapidly age and decay when they lose blood *shiver*

And yes, perhaps immortals don't really need their own sub-group. They're just too rare. They're just an amalgation of various stages combined with immortality, like you stated.



Perhaps I should make another, more updated graph of the evolution lines, maybe a drawing to accompany it.....

Anyway, regarding the evolution requirements, it can be compared to Pokemon. PNP is the experience, and these requirements are evolution items of certain required abilities. I doubt many youkai kinds need these requirements though, only certain kinds, most prominently the magicians.

This is exactly how i envisioned it, but then it is up to the character themselves whether they evolve. Utsuho a.k.a Chernobyl-san already has power she would not really care.
Frankly it seems that most characters don't really care all that much, or Reimu would have ascended by now.

Regarding ghosts: I haven't really realised that. Maybe ghost also have their own little evolutionary line. Since most ghost quickly pass on to the afterlife, they aren't capable of collecting much PNP/developing their forms and abilities. Yuyuko however has been a ghost for ages now, unable to pass on. This has allowed her to collect PNP and develope, resulting in her regaining a human shape. Myon, similliary to my original theory of youkai growing when using their full strength, might be able to temporarily take on human shape for a powerful attack. But otherwise, she remains a gaseous entity. Afterall, Youmu's still young, and is most of the time tending the garden and babysitting Yuyuko. Myon's hasen't been able to attain permanent humanoid form yet because she and Youmu haven't collected much PNP yet. Maybe ghost's also have a little evolutionary line, one which resembles those of the fairies more than normal youkai. While fairies grow bigger, ghosts gradually materialize more. Like how fairies could possibly become gigantic, ghosts could possibly regain complete human form. The fact Yuyuko is completely humanoid proves she's powerful. I mean, her spellcards are insane in PCB! And she has her trademark gamebreaker power.

I agree with that's said about ghosts.. So what I'm getting here is that ghosts usually just pass on, only those that could not such as Yuyuko and Youmu could attain humanshape. Are evolved ghosts more powerful that thier evolved youkai counterparts then. This is what seems to be the case.

I'll have a look at what other enemies there are in the games

There are a great deal.
Other than for game mechanics is there any other reason to have faeries dresses match the item type they drop?
red fairies drop power, blue faeries drop points.

And what are those strange orbs in SA stage 3 anyway.

Not to mention the ubiquitous doom fairy that sometimes appears and bombards you with bullets before the boss fight.


Good discussion so far..

we can make a Gensokyo Handbook still.

And then write don't panic. How else does one beat the games.

The evolution can wait...
It seems rather simple now

what seems more important is taxonomy.

The classification of the enemies in the game as well as a study on the types of danmaku. Not character specific bullets but the general sprite stuff they bombard you with in all the games. Those have never changed.

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Frankly it seems that most characters don't really care all that much, or Reimu would have ascended by now.

Once again, ingore Reimu as there is no evolution for a human that isn't a magician. She can pretty much take as much PNP as she wants without anything happening to her being a human. I think it was Naito tht said that only after death she might be reborn as a god for example.
But maybe we should wait for Naito's updated evolution lines before we try to get a final decision on the circumstances of evolution. We'll probably be stuck on that for a while 

Are evolved ghosts more powerful that thier evolved youkai counterparts then. This is what seems to be the case.

Probably yes. Maybe a ghost that evolves regains the powers it had in its life plus added power from being a ghost.

Not to mention the ubiquitous doom fairy that sometimes appears and bombards you with bullets before the boss fight.

Doom fairies might be explained by the fairy-theories we had before. They are most likely fairies that were born bigger than their companions and could therefore become more powerful. Or they might have started as normal fairies that survived long enough to produce a lot of PNP and grow that way. It might also be possible that one of those fairies happened to pick up some PNP that was dropped in a fight between youkai and not collected by anyone.

The classification of the enemies in the game as well as a study on the types of danmaku. Not character specific bullets but the general sprite stuff they bombard you with in all the games. Those have never changed.

I can see the relevance of enemy classification,as we can link those to PNP fairly easy.
But could you please explain a bit more about the danmaku part? I don't get how they have significance for the theory.

Or did you mean that we establish those classification as something different from the PNP-theory?

[mew77]

I feel that what you say about doom faeries is correct..most likely gained power from picking up all the PNP the othrs fail to pick up.

Ah...they are the greedy ones. Doom faeries are then faeries that from birth were the same in every way to the others except they were more greedy. When they could steal PNP or collect more they would. There's a good reason they tend to work alone or in very small groups.

For example in MoF the doom fairy is often on it's own bombarding the player. Other faeries might avoid doom faeries, just like schoolchildren avoid bullies. But then it is implied that the doom faeries is a bully that attacks other faeries to gain PNP.

And there is no conclusive evidence for this unfortunately.