The PNP-Theory: Drug Abuse in Gensokyo

[OkashiiKisei]

Excuse me for sounding newbish, but I can't seem to be able to post an image from my own scanner. In which thread do I need to be to find the solution? The forum rules only have answers for posting images from other sites...

[Dead Princess Sakana]

If you want to upload it directly from your PC that isn't gonna work as far as I know. You should upload it to an imagehosting site and then you can add it to your post via the link. There's a lot of free sites for that, just google it or look at the links of pictures other people have posted t find a site to use. That would be one possibility of many.

[OkashiiKisei]

If you want to upload it directly from your PC that isn't gonna work as far as I know. You should upload it to an imagehosting site and then you can add it to your post via the link. There's a lot of free sites for that, just google it or look at the links of pictures other people have posted t find a site to use. That would be one possibility of many.

Do I have to insert the link to the site with the image, or to the image itself? No matter what I insert between [img] I only get the link, never the picture itself I've made an account, adjusted the thing, and yet I can't get it to work!

[OkashiiKisei]

[img] http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2729/rumiaevolution.jpg [img]

Enough, I'll just post the link. I'll figure out later how this works....

Pic made by me by the way.

Anyway, I made a drawn out example of the youkai evolution line, with Miss Rumia demonstrating for us. The title was supposed to say 'Youkai Evolution, featuring Rumia' and 'OkashiiNaito' but my scanner cut it off
I'm not even near as good as everybody else on MotK (particulary the image thread) but I hope you like it. I do have improved, if I say so myself. Perhaps some artistic tips might come in handy?
Yes, I do think Rumia was originally a cross. I mean, that pose of her has to imply something.
Also, I would like to say I'm sorry towards everyone who's mental image of Rumia is scarred forever thanks to stage 5......

[Toasty]

7 and 6 were more scarring, actually.

[OkashiiKisei]

7 and 6 were more scarring, actually.

Aw, fudge, I was afraid people would think that. My lack of drawing skill + oversexualized character design + originally innocents characters + manic grin = creepy as hell

[Toasty]

Not just sexualized, muscle looking. Try again, with flowing robes or something, maybe more extravagant and shinki looking.

[OkashiiKisei]

Aww, thanks for the advice. Since Shinki herself is stage 7, it would indeed be more fitting if the last stages resembled her style more (like the flowing robes you suggested).

Also, muscle looking? And here I was trying to make her look slim yet voluptuous...must have been seven's pose and six's thighs..... This really is saying something about my artistic skills
Perhaps I should try again tomorrow and remove this one eventually, to stop mentally scarring everyone....

[Dead Princess Sakana]

First off, for inserting images, you have to put a slash before the second 'img', like this: [/img]

Oh, and you'd better use the thumbnail-link if the site you upload to provides one, because I just tried to insert your image here as an example, and it would be way too big to fit into a post. There's also a way to adjust the size of a picture to fit the post, but I don't know how exactly it was done.
If you don't have thumbnail links and don't want to bother resizing, just post the link as you did before.

That much for advice, now for the drawing:
I like your drawing a lot. That's how I imagined the evolution from what you described. 
Though I agree with Toast on stages 6 and 7. They're looking way too wild and brute, when we said that they should be more like forms of godly beauty and grace.
If you feel like it, I would really like to see evolutions for other characters as well (if you could do a Patchy or Utsuho that would be awesome ).

[OkashiiKisei]

First off, for inserting images, you have to put a slash before the second 'img', like this: [/img]

Oh, and you'd better use the thumbnail-link if the site you upload to provides one, because I just tried to insert your image here as an example, and it would be way too big to fit into a post. There's also a way to adjust the size of a picture to fit the post, but I don't know how exactly it was done.
If you don't have thumbnail links and don't want to bother resizing, just post the link as you did before.

That much for advice, now for the drawing:
I like your drawing a lot. That's how I imagined the evolution from what you described. 
Though I agree with Toast on stages 6 and 7. They're looking way too wild and brute, when we said that they should be more like forms of godly beauty and grace.
If you feel like it, I would really like to see evolutions for other characters as well (if you could do a Patchy or Utsuho that would be awesome ).

Alright, I will try inserting the pic that way in my next drawing.

Yeah, when I was thinking up Rumia stage 6, I immediatly thought 'Ex-Rumia', and based stage 7 on Ex-Rumia's aggresiveness. I really should have remembered the beauty and grace part....

I'm currently working on Wriggle tough, and now I'm going to try something more beautiful for the last stages. But Patchy and Okuu are very good suggestions (tough they will be hard to design). I'll try those after I finish Wriggle.

Also, I really appreciate you like my drawing I'll try to do even better with this next one!

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Also, I really appreciate you like my drawing I'll try to do even better with this next one!

Keep it up, I look forward to it (and that goes for the people watching this thread as well, I'd say)
Also, I think you draw pretty well already, a lot better than me as least  :V

Though I will try to make an own picture soon. All of our discussions have made an image of Reimu stalking fairies in my head that I just have to try and draw  :V

[mew77]

... on the drawing, although i can't complain. Everyone draws better than I do, therefore i am incapable of criticizing art.

I find that it works, although Kogasa is the youkai we are certain evolved from an object...perhaps she would make a better test subject.

And your explanation of the withdrawal symptoms is as Sakana said: genius.

It seems that by UFO, most symptoms except for the slow aging have been suppressed...although in stage one Reimu does tell nazrin that mouse youkai aren't worth her time. Likely the girls have begun to control their craving more by SA and UFO. I sense reluctance in their dialogue.

[OkashiiKisei]

... on the drawing, although i can't complain. Everyone draws better than I do, therefore i am incapable of criticizing art.

I find that it works, although Kogasa is the youkai we are certain evolved from an object...perhaps she would make a better test subject.

And your explanation of the withdrawal symptoms is as Sakana said: genius.

It seems that by UFO, most symptoms except for the slow aging have been suppressed...although in stage one Reimu does tell nazrin that mouse youkai aren't worth her time. Likely the girls have begun to control their craving more by SA and UFO. I sense reluctance in their dialogue.

You can say whatever you want about the drawing. I know it's full of flaws...
And thanks for the genius part
Regarding the suppresion.... I haven't really noticed it myself yet. But it may be quite possible. Maybe they are starting to realise the risk of PNP consumption. Perhaps something happened before SA and UFO? A dark event regardig PNP the girls don't want to speak about?

[OkashiiKisei]

YES! I finally got it to work! Anyway, here's Wriggle's evolution line, made by me once again.
Hopefully this one won't cause any mind scarring. I tried to make stage 6 and 7 more graceful this time, with stage 6 based on Ex-Wriggle from Touhoumon and stage 7's dress being based on a queen bee, coupled with butterfly wings. I even gave her a crown, beetle shoes and beetle hair ornaments. Stage 5 is obviously based on queens from various bug species, since Wriggle, as manipulator of bugs, is basically a bug queen. I also would like to note that stage 4 doesn't have thunder thighs, just poofy pants! None the less, I still think stage 4 came out best.

If you're having a hard time imagining a monstrous mantis/firefly hybrid turning into a loli, just think of her popping out of a cocoon. Same goes for a grotesque bug queen turning into a young lady. Also, if anyone is wondering why stage 1 and 2 Wriggle don't have any wings, it's because most kinds of female fireflies don't have wings. There are exceptions of course, but I wanted to be biologically correct.

Here's full size by the way: http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6930/wriggleevoltion.jpg
Hope you guys like this one more....

[KrackoCloud]

I sorta viewed Power items as some kind of life substance. I understand this isn't completely related to the PNP-theory, but this idea isn't really enough to warrant a different thread IMO.

No big wall of text, sorry.

The hitbox is in the center of a character, right? Considering that one loses a life only when their hitbox is hit, you could say bullets are going straight through that character. So imagine Reimu being cut through by a bullet, and her body rips apart. Blood, organs, and Power items fly out.
Or perhaps Power items themselves are some kind of manifestation of the blood and organs.
Either way, now we can see why Power items come out of characters.
And might as well go ahead and speculate that Full Power items are something along the lines of adrenaline?

[OkashiiKisei]

I sorta viewed Power items as some kind of life substance. I understand this isn't completely related to the PNP-theory, but this idea isn't really enough to warrant a different thread IMO.

No big wall of text, sorry.

The hitbox is in the center of a character, right? Considering that one loses a life only when their hitbox is hit, you could say bullets are going straight through that character. So imagine Reimu being cut through by a bullet, and her body rips apart. Blood, organs, and Power items fly out.
Or perhaps Power items themselves are some kind of manifestation of the blood and organs.
Either way, now we can see why Power items come out of characters.
And might as well go ahead and speculate that Full Power items are something along the lines of adrenaline?

But that would also mean the main characters are consuming the blood and organs splurting out the bosses..... And as far as I know, Reimu and Marisa aren't immortal, so how can they pick themselves together with an extra life if they had just been torn apart? I once read in one of the articles on Touhou Wiki that the 'lives' don't represent the main characters life force, but rather their will to go on, so basically when Reimu and Marisa lose all their lives they just collapse on the ground. I doubt much bloodshed is included. Fairies on the other habd are fragile enough to DO burst apart when hit with danmaku, but they regenerate anyway, so it isn't much of a big deal.

[KrackoCloud]

But that would also mean the main characters are consuming the blood and organs splurting out the bosses..... And as far as I know, Reimu and Marisa aren't immortal, so how can they pick themselves together with an extra life if they had just been torn apart? I once read in one of the articles on Touhou Wiki that the 'lives' don't represent the main characters life force, but rather their will to go on, so basically when Reimu and Marisa lose all their lives they just collapse on the ground.

Hmm, yeah. I didn't take into account the fact that bosses "splurt" stuff too. I guess that's inevitable, considering the idea had little deduction, but was more of just a spurred thought. I don't think I'll bother trying to make this theory complete.
What you said on lives is another good point. Still, it might work nicely with the idea of Full-Power as adrenaline.

[mew77]

I figured, since the PNP only grants great power..they finally found out that it wasn't a true addiction just a mental condition and no longer depend on the stuff. The evolution chart seems to make sense. However..it is known that reimu and marisa are the first to investigate new incidents.

[OkashiiKisei]

I figured, since the PNP only grants great power..they finally found out that it wasn't a true addiction just a mental condition and no longer depend on the stuff. The evolution chart seems to make sense. However..it is known that reimu and marisa are the first to investigate new incidents.

The greatest part of PNP's addictiveness is merely mental, like you stated. It is mostly about the want for power. But like I pointed out with my withdrawal signs, there does seem to be a indication of bodily addiction, most prominently with the sign regarding Reimu's unhealthy skin tone. But perhaps that was a one time only thing. Since Reimu and Marisa have been absorbing so much PNP, they are starting to get more youkai like, and are starting to get less physical and mental problems regarding addictiveness. By this time, it is indeed more of a mental condition. They are getting more youkai like, so it is starting to seem more natural, and they can control their want a bit more. Their bodies are addapting.

Yet, maybe this moment of mental peace will be short lived....once they start to turn more and more into youkai (especially if they are close to going monstrous) youkai instincts might kick in, letting their want for PNP shoot through the roof. Their self control would be heavily limited. Not just because of PNP addictiveness, but because of their youkai nature that's starting to develope.

By the way, what do you think of Wriggle's evolution line? Alot better, right?

[mew77]

Makes more sense than the rumia evolution line.

As for the future of their condition..we'd have to wait until the next game to be sure

[Dead Princess Sakana]

First of all: Wriggle <3
It's awesome, Naito! The last two stages are exactly how a supreme/perfection Touhou should be: Cute, smiling and with the power to rip you to shreds.
Have you thought about posting it in the Artworks thread in Fanworks as well? Because it is really good and more people should see it.

Good job on the further explanations you guys granted fo the addiction. Seems all logical to me. It will be really interesting to see if the next Touhou game will break our theory or strengthen it  :V

As for the small argument in between about the life force and organs flying around, I think we can explain that one easily:

First of all: Spellcard Rules. No serious physical damage is involved in Danmaku fights.

But we could go another way: I simply assume that besided the shooting abilities, the characters are also capable of defense (and many bosses have indeed shown us examples of that with invincibility phases in the battles). So they probably have some kind of shield active all the time (how about that small spellcircle around them for example?), that can take the lethal force from the bullet. When they get hit the shield absorbs the physical damage, but magical damage is taken. This results in the character being knocked out of their flying and dropping to the ground, losing some PNP in the process. There they use the PNP that has manifested as extra lifes to quickly gain strength again and fly up once more. If they don't have any more ExtraLife-PNP they lose consciousness like Naito said.
The details are open for debate, but that's how I think the basic progress works.


EDIT: I got my little picture done. This is the image I got in my mind when we were talking about how fairies are stalked for PNP  :V

[mew77]

I see reimu doing that kind of thing a lot...

And then the faerie will turn around and see nothing there..confused it will fly away and receive a lethal birthday card right to the neck.

[OkashiiKisei]

That picture is both adorable and freaking hilarious XD

Reimu's psychotic smile is pure gold, and that scene is perfectly imaginable   I can see her actually doing that XD
And the fairy is very cute Your art isn't that bad at all

The no physical damage part of danmaku is official, no changing that. But that shield part sounds interesting, and explains the runes and glyphs behind the characters. Maybe that's why bossess also take much more hits: it's because of those barriers! Ofcourse, PNP consumption also plays a role in greater stamina, but still, those runes aren't on the player characters, only on bosses. The runes in Mystical Chain also indicated if an enemy was vulnerable or not.

And lots of thanks you like my Wriggle drawing! I should indeed use these models for supreme and perfection.
Perhaps I should start posting things on the fan art section. Not just the evolution lines, also other ideas I've had for a while.

By the way, something just popped into my head: could Touhous be able to shapeshift back to previous forms whenever they wanted? I can imagine it would be handy for some youkai to disguise themselves as their animal forms again, or turn monstrous to look more intimidating, all without sacrificing PNP. Perhaps an ability available to later stages only?

[Toasty]

Actually, some would, namely ran (kitsune can shapeshift), yukari, chen, and orin. (as far as canon goes, anyways).

[OkashiiKisei]

Actually, some would, namely ran (kitsune can shapeshift), yukari, chen, and orin. (as far as canon goes, anyways).

We actually see Orin doing it, Ran is, like you said, a shapeshifter by nature and Yukari can do anything anyway thanks to her border powers/reality warping. But I'm not sure if Chen can shapeshift. It seems logical to me, since shikigami used to be animals or objects turned into servants, and it would look like a fitting ability for her. But I've seen many comments of Safebooru, Youtube and many other Touhou fansites which state that Chen can't shapeshift, saying that's canon. Now I don't know what to believe anymore....

Nue is also a shapeshifter, atleast, she can 'hide her true form'.

[mew77]

As the diagram shows, the hitbox has been slowly getting larger over time.
In EOSD it was tiny, and only covered about 10% of the character sprite.

But by UFO, it had gotten slightly larger
and now covers nearly 20% of the character sprite.

This stands to confirm Sakana's point about PNP slowly collecting at
the hitbox, and evidence of his it slowly has built up over time.
Also note that reimu (and the others) had signifigantly
more powerful bombs in UFO than in EOSD.
The heroines (funny the word sounds wort of like heroin) could also
initiate a POC at zero power in UFO, while they had to have max power in
EOSD> I remember Sakana theorizing that the amount of PNP the girls had
at zero power in MoF was equal to the amount they had at max power in
EOSD. I now believe that was a gross miscalculation. The true discrepancy
is astounding given this new evidence.

If we consider the bomb in UFO to be twice as powerful as the bomb
in EOSD. (master spark not included)

The hitbox is only a few pixels larger, but it is proportionally larger than
it was in EOSD.

I'd now theorize that the hitbox has doubled in size between EoSD
and UFO.

Comments?

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Oh god, oh god, OH GOD!

Mew, that was awesome. Another hard proof directly from the games. I wouldn't have dreamed of that!
I don't see any problems with anything you pointed out right now, so I fully approve.

Also for my shield theory: It was mainly intended for the player characters only when bullets could do physical harm, but as that is canonically false, I assume heroines have no defensive abilities. I'll let the 'being knocked down' part and all stand for now.

I'll go with Naito's version of applying the defensive abilities to bosses.

Also: thanks for the comments on my picture. I want to draw more so that I can finally manage a consistent style and quality.

[Toasty]

Supernatural border in PCB = weaker version of the boss border in every single fight.

[Shanghai Alice]

Could it be possible that they pool up their magic more, which results in their bodies expanding to accommodate?

Because I always thought that the player uses less power because they have to fight longer, and more power means wearing out faster.

So... the pools of magic are the reason...?

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Supernatural border in PCB = weaker version of the boss border in every single fight.

Hey, you're right. Great job noticing that.

Could it be possible that they pool up their magic more, which results in their bodies expanding to accommodate?

Because I always thought that the player uses less power because they have to fight longer, and more power means wearing out faster.

So... the pools of magic are the reason...?

I'm sorry, but.... did you read past the first post? If not, you should.

Your answer might be valid for the original question of this thread, but we've already gone a lot further than that.

In fact, what you described is more or less the same we have been discussing, or at least pit's part of it.
Only that we took the whole matter to a more, well, 'interesting' level.