First a few things I didn't mention before.
1. Kanako doesn't grow stronger when she feels good, at least not any more than anyone else; she feels good when she grows in power, which is perfectly natural I might add.
2. Apparently you didn't understand what I said. Everybody will always tend to do what makes them feel better, no matter whether that is giving food to homeless people or punching puppies. A "selfish" person is merely one who doesn't get enjoyment out of making other people feel good. A "bad" person is one who is willing to make other people feel bad as long as they feel better. An "evil" person is one who gets enjoyment directly from making other people feel bad.
It was a metaphor. When I said 'feeling good' I meant faith obviously. Read between the lines! ITS CALLED SARCASM!
Another note: I'm not saying all of this because I love Shinki very dearly, but because it is perfectly understandable and obvious! All the signs point out she is the mightiest character (besides Dragon) up till this point! I'd go in this same discussion even if I didn't like Shinki!
Back to topic:
*cough* Anyway, my own personal fanwank about Shinki is that 1. an Infinite Being is technically not a god, since the gods require Faith of some sort and Shinki does not (this last bit I admit is my own invention, but "not mentioned by canon" is not the same thing as "contradicted by canon"), and 2. what Reimu/Marisa/Yuka/Mima fought was just an avatar Shinki created for the purpose of dealing with mortals; I guess she reasoned that if someone was angry enough to fight her, it was usually for a reason, so if nothing else they'd get the catharsis of having fought her. She wasn't stupid, so her avatar was pretty damn powerful, but this was basically a the same principle as the Spell Card system which Reimu created, except for pretty much exactly the opposite reason ...
Once again Muffin deserves a Noble Prize for 'best idea ever'. This perfectly explains why Shinki lost and why she didn't insta-kill her competitors. She wanted to have a fair fight, so she made a significantly weaker avatar to fight in her stead. She got a bit too carried away with it and wrecked Makai. No matter, since she can fix it in a jiffy thanks to her
omnipotence. If she fought in her true form you'd get a scene similar to the Giygas battle from Eartbound: a foe who's form and attacks are completely inconceivable. Only difference is that the players can't reach for the 'pray' option. Thus, they would be completely pulverized. There have been DOZENS of characters that could have followed through with their scheme even if they lost a danmaku battle to Reimu. ALL of them could flip her the birdy and keep going with their plan. Yet they don't, since losing a danmaku battle is like a discussion: if you lose it you have to give in to the other. Shinki did something similar, giving up once her avatar got defeated. She could have continued if she wanted, but decided the heroines won fair and square. Otherwise you'd get a scene similar to Persona 3, where the Big Bad destroys everything after all even when her avatar was defeated. The tourism thing probably didn't mean that much to Shinki anyway.
But now I think of Nyx Avatar whenever I think of Shinki....
I do however think Shinki IS a God. At least, she's MORE God than every other character besides the enigmatic Dragon. So if people keep hanging on to that 'faith elementals' are real Gods, then Shinki is BEYOND godlike. She's the Azathoth to Kanako's Cthulhu.
And I think I said that before, but you guys ignored me so I'll say that again :V
There are 2 kinds of god:
One is born as a god with absolute powers.
One is born as a normal being, even weak or whatever but they somehow manage to do something incredible, and has faith from people around. Gradually they are worshiped and became gods.
Their powers are varied, but they are still damn gods, that is their title, God.
There is nothing such as "gods are stronger than youkai", Sun Wukong, who can be considered as a monkey youkai, wiped out entirely Heaven and can only be captured by Grand Buddha and Grand Buddha alone.
Shinki is immortal, however her power is "unknown", so you can't say she is stronger than Yukari, Yuuka or Mima or Kanako at the moment. I dare say Kanako is in the league. :V
P/S: Danmaku is a game where Reimu the kid pwns all, ALL.
That is a perfect description: Shinki is a born, absolute God, while Kanako and Suwako ascended from mortals into Faith Gods due to faith. Shinki has probably lived for millions or even billions of years, and is the source of all demon kind. In fact, you NEED to be powerful if you are the creator of all demons.
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere on Wikipedia (can't remember which article) that youkai are all beings with power between that of man and that of kami. Of course, there can be exceptions to this rule.
I'd rather league Kanako with Byakuren, Eirin and Yuyuko, the runner-ups for 'mightiest in Gensokyo'. Yukari and Yuuka fit more with Flandre and Suika. Those latter four are downright more hax or just significantly more powerful than the former four. I dare say Shinki is in a league of her own, with the only being (that isn't Dragon) able to match her being Shikieiki. Since powerlevels of characters are frowned on, I'll just show a powerlevel chart of SPECIES. No way you can argue with that.
God Tier - Dragon
Top Tier - Infinite Beings, Yama
Very High Tier - Supreme youkai, Oni, Celestials, Shinigami, Lunarians
High Tier - Complete youkai magicians, Greater faith gods, greater youkai, vampires, ghosts
And yes, Reimu transcends it all because she is the poster girl for God-Hax Sues (only thing that differs her from the other Sues is that she's actually likable).
Neener neener neener.
First, read Muffin's last post regarding avatars. Muffin already perfectly described that Shinki wanted to have a FAIR fight. Almost all Touhou characters play fair. You could discuss about every character why they don't fight better or use their powers. The point is null and void. Shinki wanted to fight fair, and thus didn't use impossible patterns. She didn't want to incapacitate them either. She wanted to do what every other villain the series did: fight it out in a fair fight to determine what should be next course of action. Danmaku = Politics, and you don't cheat in politics. The one who loses the match has to give in to the victor's ideas and plans. Every bullet is basically a vote against that person. They were having a vote on whether the tourism to Gensokyo should end or not. And like all political discussions it can get very fiery or even get out of hand.That is exactly what happened.
Using the backgrounds is a perfectly accurate assumption. Only a handful of characters in the PC-98 games changed the background, and even then it was only one still picture. Most of the time these still backgrounds are just illusions. But Yuuka and Shinki completely fucked around with reality, basically turning it inside out! We already saw that their hangouts we're interdimensional clusterfucks made by themselves! Sure, Gengetsu and Mugetsu made Mugenkan, but Yuuka connected it to her mansion and could control it just as well! Having your own dimension shows you are one powerful badass mofo in Gensokyo, and Yuuka always tries to make herself look like the biggest, baddest mofo in Gensokyo. And this is BEFORE spellcards and all that illusionary background crap! If you can control your own dimension, you could obviously use it to kill anyone who is INSIDE the dimension. Yukari uses her pocket dimension for a multitude of things, INCLUDING asskicking. So who says Yuuka and Shinki can't do the same with their full-fledged dimensions? And again, only the mightiest Touhous have (pocket-)dimensions, and Shinki has the biggest of them all (housing INTELLIGENT LIFE). This perfectly shows she is far more powerful than the rest. Also, she may not be omnipotent everywhere, but she certainly IS omnipotent in Makai, since she can control it and everything inside entirely. THAT sounds like omnipotence to me.
Judging from the skill she has shown, I think it is UNlikely she has limits. Maybe there are other Infinite Beings who have a further extent of power, but Shinki can still do infinitely more things than all the other characters. Once again, only the Dragon is confirmed to best her (and everyone else) in reality warping. BECAUSE her power is unspecified she wouldn't have limits. ALL the powers in the series have vast amounts of uses and applications, but all of them have certain limits (even boundary manipulation). We know that Shinki can create, yet her power isn't specified. Thus, there is nothing to hinder her creation and reality warping powers! They are (nigh-)limitless! There are no established rules to limit her power!
I'm not downgrading the other characters, but just showing a rough showcase of their power in comparison to others. Sure, Kanako is waaaaaaay more powerful than any human, and if she would indeed look a God if she was the only final boss. However, with the presence of Yukari, Yuuka and Shinki she looks horribly insignificant. A cat looks large when compared to a mouse, but the cat looks small when compared to an elephant. Here, Kanako looks strong when compared to humans, but Kanako looks weak when compared to Yukari, Yuuka and Shinki. That is what I'm trying to tell you.
To make my point of Shinki > Gensokyo Top > MoF Gods even more clear, let's use the 'Physical God criteria' from TV Tropes.
Here are the criteria for Physical Gods:
* Nigh Invulnerability - They can get physically hit occasionally, but no real physical damage will occur without a Deus Ex Machina or a MacGuffin. (See Implacable Man.)
* Super Strength
* Telekinesis
* Shoot fireballs/lightning
* Teleportation and/or Flight
* Power to alter reality at will, generally in limited areas or in ways relating to their attunement? see below.
* Limited Omniscience: They can be aware of what's going on in a general area, but they have to pay attention to it. So it's possible to surprise them.
* Attunement to concept: ie, Aphrodite the Goddess of Love is attuned to love, naturally. If fewer people love, then she's weakened. If she's hurt or weakened due to some plot reason, fewer people love. Not all gods have attunements, and the level of attunement depends on the writer at the time. Which may overlap with...
* Gods Need Prayer Badly: Their power may be directly proportional to the number of worshipers they have, or to the strength of their followers' belief.
* Immortality: They usually don't age, but can be killed - although it's incredibly difficult to do so and usually takes a great deal of effort or some special item to do so. If enough people still believe in them, they may be brought back to life - although they may have lost their memories or be forced to take a new form.
Kanako, Suwako and the other Faith Gods possess these traits:
* Nigh Invulnerability
* Super Strength (Though possibly applicable to Kanako for being a War Goddess, but otherwise super strength isn't mentioned)
* Telekinesis (limited to their own weaponry and elements though)
* Shoot fireballs/lightning (Danmaku of course)
* Teleportation and/or Flight
* Power to alter reality at will (there are shit loads of youkai that can use the elements, so I don't count element bending as reality warping)
* Limited Omniscience* Attunement to concept* Gods Needs Prayers Badly
* Immortality (Can still die from lack of faith)
Shinki possesses these:
* Nigh Invulnerability
* Super Strength (Again, not directly mentioned, but if we assume she really is omnipotent she could punch as hard Captain Falcon. Lets cross it out anyway to be fair)
* Telekinesis (You can see the pillars at the pre-battle scene and the walls of the screen start spinning hysterically in the air once Shinki starts fighting)
* Shoot fireballs/lightning (Danmaku of course, and can probably actually use these elements. Makai has fire and lightning, and Shinki made Makai. Thus, she created fire and lightning in Makai and can thus control it. Everything in Makai is in her command.)
* Teleportation and/or Flight
* Power to alter reality at will* Limited Omniscience (She knows everything that happens in Makai, but can still be surprised by outsiders.)
* Attunement to concept (if she is destroyed (which is nigh-impossible) Makai probably disappears)
* Gods Needs Prayers Badly* Immortality (Is absolutely immortal)
Now tell me, who fits better with the criteria to Physical God? Shinki or the MoF Gods?
Shinki.
Lets compare Yukari to the MoF Gods.
* Nigh Invulnerability (Youkai are HARD to kill)
* Super Strength (Yukari is a youkai, and super strength is a stock super power for youkai. She might prefer not to get her hands dirty, but she can probably tear off your head with one hand)
* Telekinesis (All the stuff she fires out of her gaps tends to fly about)
* Shoot fireballs/lightning (Danmaku, and can control these with her borders)
* Teleportation and/or Flight
* Power to alter reality at will * Limited Omniscience (She knows a lot about Gensokyo at all times, almost frighteningly so. She sometimes even acts as if she knows what you are thinking.)
* Attunement to concept (Yukari helped strengthen the Border. If she dies the Border might significantly weaken. Access to Hakugyokurou becomes impossible, and it is way harder to access the outside world. Her own pocket dimension will probably collapse upon her death.)
* Gods Needs Prayers Badly* Immortality (Youkai live for thousands of years. Yukari could use her gap powers to become completely immortal)
Yukari boasts far more impressive skills than the MoF Gods, yet she is still classified a regular youkai.
Now, for even more comparison, let's bring Superman in here:
* Nigh Invulnerability
* Super Strength
* Telekinesis
* Shoot fireballs/lightning
* Teleportation and/or Flight
* Power to alter reality at will (Not only is Superman one big, walking middlefinger to the laws of physics, he can also erase memories with kisses, turn the emblem on his chest into a net and turn back time by spinning the planet the other way)
* Limited Omniscience* Attunement to concept* Gods Needs Prayers Badly* Immortality (Kryptonite can kill him, but there is a far lower chance that he comes across the stuff than that the MoF Gods run out of faith.)
Superman clearly has the upper-hand over the MoF Gods in a fight. If Superman can kick the ever loving crap out of your God you should really consider searching for a new God.
As you can see, the MoF Gods are severely inferior to Yukari and Shinki (and Superman). Kanako isn't in the same league as the Gensokyo Top, and Shinki is a far more superior being and omnipotent. Anything to say against that?
