Miscellaneous Questions Thread (LOOK HERE OR DIE)

[Sabino]

I think Yukari would be even more unreliable a narrator than Akyu.

As for the tails, foxes get one tail every century, so it'd have to be 800 years.

Ah, it's actually interesting since there are multiple theories, indeed one of them is get a tail every n years, and there's even a version that goes lose a tail every n years until there are none.
There are also many Chinese stories that talk about how they get their tails, but all of them say that you need a very long time (centuries to millenniums) for a fox to become a fully fledged Tenko.(天狐)

Ah, yes. How could I forget about her? She actually get's around and can be very devoted to something. Not to mention she's strong enough to fend for herself.

Well, Perfect Memento was written with the help of Keine.
Keine helped out with the history Akyuu wrote the book... with lots of biases, but I guess it can't be helped.
If only Byakuren wasn't sealed up for that time, she could've been a very reliable source...
Also, I'd personally be thrilled if there ever was a book published by Satori. I'd love to know what some people are thinking.

[OkashiiKisei]

They really should rename it Imperfect Memento in that case...

[KrackoCloud]

Hm... Not sure if it would be alright to make a separate thread for this, so I'll just ask here.

You know those character-specific seals/insignias in the Touhou fighting games?
Does anyone know where I could find, like, a gallery with all of them?

I know there's a few you can get from spritesheets, but not all of them are present. At least, not on the ones I found.

[Demonbman]

In the events of UFO, Nazrin, Ichirin, Murasa, and Shou are all trying to rescue Byakuren(?)
Shou is found in Makai, the place where Murasa was steering the ship to, does that mean that Shou was already in Makai, or was Shou in another part of the ship? The same could go for Nazrin...

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Well, Nazrin pretty surely used the ship. Since she ship seems to be the only way into Makai and Nazrin was outside in stage one, she must have been on the ship to get into Makai on stage five.
Which would then imply that Shou was in Makai all the time, because if she had been on the ship as well, Nazrin could have handed the Pagoda over to her there. Since she kept it till her midboss fight in stage 5 she most likely didn't meet Shou on the ship.

On the other hand, this is Touhou we're talking about, so my logic might fail  :V

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

Yeah, here's how I'm assuming it went:

• The amount of "UFOs" needed to unseal Byakuren was about the same as the amount needed to send the Palanquin Ship to Makai.
• Before they got the "UFOs" from the heroines in stage 4, they could only send something small or an individual to Makai.
• So, for whatever reason, they sent Shou into Makai ahead of time.

[Polaris]

Looking at the dialogues again, it seems that Nazrin may have not taken the ship to Makai:

The captain was looking for you, you know?
Saying, "where's she wandering off to now?" ...

Of course, Nazrin could have been just hiding in the ship to keep the pagoda hidden from Murasa until she could get it to Shou.

Shou definitely arrived in Makai before the heroine(s):

I've been waiting for you!

Most likely, the group collected a bit of the treasure and went to Makai using the ship, but they realized that they didn't have enough to break the seal. So they had Shou stay and guard it while Nazrin went back to collect more treasure and find Shou's pagoda. Nazrin then boarded the ship after finding the pagoda and hid from Murasa so she wouldn't find out about it being lost.

This is all me guessing about it of course so it may not be true.

[Forte Blackadder]

Ah, it's actually interesting since there are multiple theories, indeed one of them is get a tail every n years, and there's even a version that goes lose a tail every n years until there are none.
There are also many Chinese stories that talk about how they get their tails, but all of them say that you need a very long time (centuries to millenniums) for a fox to become a fully fledged Tenko.(天狐)

A fox youkai gains 3 tails after 100 years worth of training, 6 tails after 1000 years. When it reaches 9 tails, it's blessed a great power and become a strongest fox youkai. (No one knows how long it takes)
A 9-tails fox is considered one of the strongest youkai in Japan, most cunning youkai in China and most evil in Vietnam.
So as ZUN stated Ran has 9-tails, I believe she has >1500 years of training. Maybe older than Yukari, even.

And how it dies... it's quite vague, since most 9-tails fox in myth had to be killed by a hero before it destroy everything. The fox has 10 lives contains in its 9 tails and main body. If you kill by destroying the body, it will turn to a flame and resurrect. Rumor has it, when a Kyuubi dies by age, it'll turn back to a normal fox.

The age of a youkai. I believe aside of Gods, everything can die from aging. Many youkai spent their life searching how to be young/immortal. Yukari may used her gapping ability to restrict the time inside her body, while Yuka/Byakuren has so much magic power that automatically maintains their appearance for a long time. Aya is a tengu so yeah. Tewi... she is the luckiest xD

Not sure if this helps. ^^

[Formless God]

'Nam has ninetails ?

[Forte Blackadder]

Yes, in "Đại Việt sử k? to?n thư" (Great Viet's history record) Lac Long Quan slayed the three evil youkai: Fish youkai, Tree youkai, Fox youkai (which happened to be a 9 tails).
And it's the only 9 tails in Vietnam's myth, the worst was only 3 tails that randomly go stealing husbands.

[Sabino]

Interesting... since for nine tailed foxes I look towards the Chinese and Japanese models more, I didn't know about the Viet story... Thank you, I'll look in to that one too!

Personally I look towards 千年弧狸精 i.e. 妲己(D?jǐ) that appears in Chinese folklore when I think about nine tailed foxes since those were the baddest of the bad that I know.
Or one of the Japanese native faiths, the Oinarisan the fox god.
So it was nice finding about some other stuff to reference nine tailed foxes.

[Forte Blackadder]

Noooo Daji
She is believed to be one, but it's never confirmed. And yeah she was one of the worst women Chinese ever known. 9 tails foxes in Japanese sometimes can be native god, or some on the "good side", however Chinese myth didn't like it. Haha I personally like foxes so screw it, they're strong and beautiful <3

[OkashiiKisei]

A fox youkai gains 3 tails after 100 years worth of training, 6 tails after 1000 years. When it reaches 9 tails, it's blessed a great power and become a strongest fox youkai. (No one knows how long it takes)
A 9-tails fox is considered one of the strongest youkai in Japan, most cunning youkai in China and most evil in Vietnam.
So as ZUN stated Ran has 9-tails, I believe she has >1500 years of training. Maybe older than Yukari, even.

And how it dies... it's quite vague, since most 9-tails fox in myth had to be killed by a hero before it destroy everything. The fox has 10 lives contains in its 9 tails and main body. If you kill by destroying the body, it will turn to a flame and resurrect. Rumor has it, when a Kyuubi dies by age, it'll turn back to a normal fox.

The age of a youkai. I believe aside of Gods, everything can die from aging. Many youkai spent their life searching how to be young/immortal. Yukari may used her gapping ability to restrict the time inside her body, while Yuka/Byakuren has so much magic power that automatically maintains their appearance for a long time. Aya is a tengu so yeah. Tewi... she is the luckiest xD

I thought fox youkai where at their most powerful state when they first gain 9 tails after 800/1000 years, and then lose them again over the course of hundreds of years 'till they have four again, turning them into Tenko: nigh Godlike and immortal beings. Maybe only a select few of Kyubi can turn into a Tenko after several reincarnations.

But alot of characters are explicitly stated to be immortal. While most youkai are indeed just long-lived, Byakuren/Greater Magicians and Eirin/Lunarians are unable to die of old age. Celestials and Immortals are described as perfectly immortal (though Celestials have to fight shinigami and Immortals aren't as durable as most other Touhou races, getting blown up with a few shots).

But as far as I see, that the characters that are unable to die by natural means (as in, they can't die of age or sickness like mortals, and have to be forcefully killed/are unable to die at all) are:
Mokou & Kaguya (Immortal)
Eirin, Kotohime and Yorihime (Never ending life)
Byakuren (Ageless)
Remilia & Flandre (Undead)
Yuyuko, Mima, Murasa & the Prismrivers (Dead. Youmu doesn't count since she's still half human and could be killed.)
Kanako, Suwako, Hina, Minoriko and Shizuha (Faith Gods, and are thus immortal. Will vanish when they lose all their faith though)
Shinki, Shikieiki and Dragon God (True Gods/Infinite Beings, and are thus perfectly immortal. Might be able to be destroyed by a being greater than them, but there's probably hardly anything stronger than them)
Komachi (Death itself)
Tenshi (Perfectly immortal thanks to Heavenly Peaches. Shinigami still chase them down however)

Yukari might be immortal, thanks to her ability, but it isn't explicitly stated. Yuuka might have once been a human, so that would mean she's a Greater Magician now, and be thus ageless.

[Forte Blackadder]

Eirin, Kotohime and Yorihime (Never ending life)

No, they're living forever due to the pure environment of the Moon, so if they set foot on Earth they will die (death by perversion from MoTK and danbooru before reaching Japan.)
About the peach I think I already said that. Hax fruit lol.

[I thought fox youkai where at their most powerful state when they first gain 9 tails after 800/1000 years, and then loses them again over the course of hundreds of years 'till they have four again

I didn't know about that, never hear of a fox youkai losing its tail (apart of getting hunt and cut off). The mother of the lover of Evil Ox King in Journey to the West was the only fox youkai that died from aging, and never reached 9 tails.

[Sabino]

Yuyuko, Mima, Murasa & the Prismrivers (Dead. Youmu doesn't count since she's still half human and could be killed.)

Ghosts can be "killed" too.
Apparently ghosts like Yuyuko die (Almost disintegrate) when the power of the sword of hisou is used on them (Tensi's Sword).
So, nobody can say the same won't work on Mima on other ghosts.
(Another way to "get rid of" Yuyuko is to get the Saigyouyou to bloom, weakening her seal to that place and Yuyuko will reenter the Reincarnation cycle)

As for foxes ant their tails... there's tons of sayings about those things so you're free to believe which ever...
but if you're looking at Ran I'd say that her background is either Chinese or Japanese folklore from her spell cards, so maybe be specific to those foklores when speaking about Ran.

[OkashiiKisei]

Ghosts can be "killed" too.
Apparently ghosts like Yuyuko die (Almost disintegrate) when the power of the sword of hisou is used on them (Tensi's Sword).
So, nobody can say the same won't work on Mima on other ghosts.
(Another way to "get rid of" Yuyuko is to get the Saigyouyou to bloom, weakening her seal to that place and Yuyuko will reenter the Reincarnation cycle)

I said natural ways, like death by age or sickness. Common, simple ways of passing on. Getting cut in half by a divine blade or awakening a sealed demon tree don't sound like natural deaths to me.
Everything can be killed, if you have the right weapon atleast. I'm however talking about dying on your own, by natural forces. No trauma involved.

[Pesco]

I said natural ways, like death by age or sickness. Common, simple ways of passing on. Getting cut in half by a divine blade or awakening a sealed demon tree don't sound like natural deaths to me.
Everything can be killed, if you have the right weapon atleast. I'm however talking about dying on your own, by natural forces. No trauma involved.

Better count Tewi in there. She's the best optimization of natural health that you can get.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

Short version: Eirin won't die of old age, but she will die if she is killed; Kaguya will not.

[Sabino]

OK true, but for Yuyuko, its more like she's binded there in a unnatural way, and if it wasn't for the seal she wouldn't be there now.

Short version: Eirin won't die of old age, but she will die if she is killed; Kaguya will not.

You're forgetting about the Hourai Elixer Eirin drank my friend.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

Or ... the Watatsukis, whatever. :V

[OkashiiKisei]

You're forgetting about the Hourai Elixer Eirin drank my friend.

Let's get the facts straight people: Eirin has never officialy been mentioned to have drunk the elixer. It's higly possible AND understandable, but there is NO official material stating she has consumed the Hourai Elixer herself. Because of that, we cannot possibly claim that Eirin is a Hourai immortal herself. She does state she extended her life with special drugs, but there is no indication she used the Hourai Elixer. It's a crime to drink it afterall, and though she has committed many felonies, perhaps she considers drinking the elixer crossing the line.
I don't understand where people are getting this 'Eirin's a Hourai Immortal' idea from....

[Iryan]

I don't understand where people are getting this 'Eirin's a Hourai Immortal' idea from....

Yeah, if I am not mistaken the Ghost Team's ending pretty much disproves that theory.

[Shizzo]

Yea, so I was looking for this Emotional Skyscrapper Remix...

I think I found it at NND, the song had a vocal, and it was very calm.  The vocalist had a sweet voice too..

The lyrics were in japanese, but there was a part of it where she just sang the song with "la la la"s, so I think it can be quite easy to identify.. D:

[Sabino]

Yeah, if I am not mistaken the Ghost Team's ending pretty much disproves that theory.

*Sigh* Back to the topic of Eirin and immortality... in case you missed the first conference about this which happened a few pages ago...
Although it has not been bluntly put in illuminating ink that "Eirin drank the elixir", we have nothing that disproves the theory, rather we have lots of facts that allow us to think that she has used the elixir.

Yea, so I was looking for this Emotional Skyscrapper Remix...

I think I found it at NND, the song had a vocal, and it was very calm.  The vocalist had a sweet voice too..

The lyrics were in japanese, but there was a part of it where she just sang the song with "la la la"s, so I think it can be quite easy to identify.. D:

Hmm I think I might know which arrange that is..., let me go on a search frenzy! XD
I'll edit when I find it.

[OkashiiKisei]

*Sigh* Back to the topic of Eirin and immortality... in case you missed the first conference about this which happened a few pages ago...
Although it has not been bluntly put in illuminating ink that "Eirin drank the elixir", we have nothing that disproves the theory, rather we have lots of facts that allow us to think that she has used the elixir.

That is no official material,

Spoiler:

and in the Ghost Team ending Eirin almost died because Yuyuko poisoned her. She had to quickly make a cure for crying out loud. Hourai Elixer protects one from all diseases and poisons.

Thus, Eirin's not immortal.
And I can't find anywhere either that Lunarians become short lived once they leave the Earth. From what I've read, they're ageless anywhere. And even then, Eirin lived billions of years on the moon. The greatest sum of her life had been spent on the moon, where she's 'susposedly' ageless. She wouldn't have needed the Hourai Elixer to live so long when she was on the damn moon all that time in it's so-called barrier of purity and eternity. Your statement is extremely flawed, Sabino.

[Iryan]

People, you really made me play through IN with Ghost Team again just to see the ending. (Turned out I hadn't even 1cc'd it with them on normal).

Unless I have an outdated translation patch, which might actually be the case, then this is my statement:

Spoiler:

Yuyuko implied that Kaguya is a definite enemy of her's because the Hourai Elixir prevents her (and by extension everyone she gives it to) from dying and entering the Netherworld, thereby making Yuyuko's position obsolete and lonely. Yuyuko didn't use the same reasoning to imply that Eirin was an enemy; she said she would've been quite useful to have around.
Yuyuko tried to poison Eirin. Either she had made herself immune against this kind of poison beforehand or she used medicine directly after that to prevent herself from dying.
Eirin said that she wanted to make medicine using Kaguya's ability, not that she drank it herself. From the context I gathered that Eirin needs Kaguya's ability to make a cure for either her own poisoning or for the lunacy Youmu got from the full moon, or possibly for something entirely different. One possible explanation would be that Eirin needs Kaguya to manipulate time in such a way that the herbs and plants from which she draws the ingredients are in the required state to harvest them, just like Sakuya used her time manipulation to make bamboo flowers bloom instantly (I think that was said in some PoFV dialogue).

So yeah, unless my translation patch is outdated, I still don't have a reason to believe Eirin drank the Hourai Elixir. Do you have any other sources to prove your point..?



Also, Okashii, you should put that information of yours in spoiler tags. Really.

[Bias Bus]

Eirin, Kotohime and Yorihime (Never ending life)

Don't you mean Toyohime :V

I would point out Ellen being eternally young (or so she claims) but she's not really a Touhou character. She's a cameo.

[Sabino]

Hourai Elixer protects one from all diseases and poisons. Thus, Eirin's not immortal.
And I can't find anywhere either that Lunarians become short lived once they leave the Earth.

Protection form diseases and poisons>
Than how would one explain Mokou (Who bluntly says she drank the elixer) getting sick?
From that I cease to evaluate this statement about disease and poisons too heavily.

Lunarians and lifespan>
Impurity makes a limit to life and lunarians live in a place without impurity, thus they are virtually immortal. Earth is stated to be full of purity.

Materials non official and flawed?>
Shure the blunt statement of Eirin drinking the elixir is nothing official but almost everything else in my original post and my posts after that about the elixir are derived from official material. If you're unshure of material that doesn't seem to be official, please tell me. I'd probably be able to tell you where it's derived from. (Unless you're pointing to the talk about what ZUN said when he was drunk or the stuff about who Eirin may be modeled after.)

People, you really made me play through IN with Ghost Team again just to see the ending. (Turned out I hadn't even 1cc'd it with them on normal).
So yeah, unless my translation patch is outdated, I still don't have a reason to believe Eirin drank the Hourai Elixir. Do you have any other sources to prove your point..?

Hmm that's a bit different in idea of what I got from that scene... you'd need to give me time to re-look that part.
But if its other suggested scenes upon this topic I can provide you with several more, one off the bat is the Earth and impurities argument I brought up earlier.

[Forte Blackadder]

Wow I can't believe we dig this up again. C'mon now, it's unclear. Eirin never stated she drank the elixir, which doesn't mean anything, she might drink it and she might not. It doesn't change the fact that she is the oldest one around in Gensokyo.
The Hourai Elixir is believed to grand :
- Eternal youth: this is still debatable, as we know so far there is only 2 people surely drank it: Kaguya who controls eternity and Mokou who had the power of Phoenix. Anyway, if even Yukari and Kanako are still "forever 17 years old" I think it's normal for Eirin too.
- Perfect health: Mokou said it, and we actually need to believe that. Take a look at this, Mokou only feel cold, not having a cold. And for short

Spoiler:

My immortal body was in quite good condition, despite how I neglected it.

However, since Eirin is a sage + a pharmacist she can take care of her health just fine.
- True immortality: by the way, if you cut Mokou's head, will she generate a new body, or a new head? I think the head and body will still lives and got healed when they place them together.

So the only valid point is "True immortality", therefore unless someone kills Eirin (which is quite hard) we can't confirm it. Just drop this topic anyway ~_~

[OkashiiKisei]

Wow I can't believe we dig this up again. C'mon now, it's unclear. Eirin never stated she drank the elixir, which doesn't mean anything, she might drink it and she might not. It doesn't change the fact that she is the oldest one around in Gensokyo.
The Hourai Elixir is believed to grand :
- Eternal youth: this is still debatable, as we know so far there is only 2 people surely drank it: Kaguya who controls eternity and Mokou who had the power of Phoenix. Anyway, if even Yukari and Kanako are still "forever 17 years old" I think it's normal for Eirin too.
- Perfect health: Mokou said it, and we actually need to believe that. Take a look at this, Mokou only feel cold, not having a cold. And for shortHowever, since Eirin is a sage + a pharmacist she can take care of her health just fine.
- True immortality: by the way, if you cut Mokou's head, will she generate a new body, or a new head? I think the head and body will still lives and got healed when they place them together.

So the only valid point is "True immortality", therefore unless someone kills Eirin (which is quite hard) we can't confirm it. Just drop this topic anyway ~_~

I think stuff like blowing up the body to smithereens or cutting it apart in several ways will result in Mokou reviving with a new body at sunrise. Afterall, Immortals are said to revive completely with a fixed up body the next day if the damage can't be healed right away. So, a gunshot or severed arm will heal or grow back, but decapitating her would result in her reviving the next day. The remaining body parts will probably burn up or something like that. If she were cut across her middle, her lower body would burn up and her upper body would grow a new lower body. Head seems the most important afterall.
If both severed parts grew back a body, we would have an ever growing army of Mokous and Kaguyas fighting each other every day, ravaging Gensokyo completely.