Author Topic: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?  (Read 28218 times)

RainfallYoshi

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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2009, 02:27:57 AM »
I still don't get these arguments at all.

If MMO's were meant to be fair and equal to everyone, they wouldn't exist. The whole point is that it's *not* equal. You have to fight for your power and it takes a lot more work to get to a point where you can compete with others.

I mean, what would the point of MMOs be if everyone started at the same place and never moved anywhere? It would be boring as hell.

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2009, 04:05:45 AM »
iirc, Grand Chase and GunBound have an option (in the form of arenas) to play with avatar items disabled, these would be examples of fair matches, and aren't boring ones.

what you said about working for your items before being able to compete, also means that if someone else has worked more on said items (or levels), they'll have better chances of winning than you have. So, it seems more like a grinding contest, where the players' abilities are left as a secondary factor, due to some equipments being so powerful and making such a difference. (a funny thing is that some RO players nickname their GvG events, the War of Emperium, as War of Equipments)

Like I mentioned in earlier posts, if you feel good by winning in such contests, think of people who grind the game to unhealthy extents. Like gold farmers, for example. (or people who try to "work" as much as them, without having co-workers to switch turns with them)
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2009, 04:20:39 AM »
what you said about working for your items before being able to compete, also means that if someone else has worked more on said items (or levels), they'll have better chances of winning than you have.
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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2009, 05:34:01 AM »
Those problems above have nothing to do with MMOs, and everything to do with RPGS. Expecting to beat a level 80 as a level 30 in an mmorpg is like expecting to beat Warmech in Final fantasy 1 at level 10. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
Depends on the RPG. For very simple ones yes, but I've managed to go through FFVII without gaining any experience at all(gamesharked it).

Even stuff from SNES like Breath of Fire 2 or Chrono Trigger can be completed at the lowest level.
That's because that's when skill and knowledge matter, not just levels.

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2009, 06:17:30 AM »
AlexX:
dedicated players of single-player/2P games (that have competitive value, like.. shmups and fighting games) are able to hold their own standings (against casual players) without needing in-game advantages. If play time is so important to players of MMOGs, they could at least admit that they're not being tested for their skills more than they're being tested for the amount of time they've spent playing.
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2009, 06:35:43 AM »
I think it's more of an issue with incentives than anything else.

Most MMOs use the desire to become more powerful as an incentive to keep playing because it is something most players are already familiar with and it's very cost effective.

Of course, this isn't the only way to motivate players. If that were true then all non-MMO multiplayer games would have died out by now.

There is no fundamental reason to think MMOs would be limited to just this idea alone, it's just that other forms of motivation tend not be as cost effective in an MMO setting and are harder to pull off. Using gameplay and content to motivate players becomes far too expensive in the long run in most cases and relying on player vs. player and co-op gameplay opens up a whole new can of worms when it comes to balance and difficulty.

What we see now as far as MMOs go is by no means all they can be, that would be like saying all FPSs had to be like Doom and all adventure games had to be like Myst. I think the best way to think about it is that the genre is still young compared to other types of games and has room to evolve in many different directions and sub-genres that just haven't developed yet.
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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2009, 06:55:02 AM »
Depends on the RPG. For very simple ones yes, but I've managed to go through FFVII without gaining any experience at all(gamesharked it).

Even stuff from SNES like Breath of Fire 2 or Chrono Trigger can be completed at the lowest level.
That's because that's when skill and knowledge matter, not just levels.

That is likely to do with using vastly overpowered gear and/or spell combinations. Chrono trigger imo has one of the most op weapons in RPG history. that damn rainbow sword crits more often than the true masemune on frog WITH the hero medal on. I don't see why it's any more acceptable for a player to rely on being more powerful via gear than it is levels or any other thing. The nature of RPGS IMO is to gain power by playing more thru leveling, gear, spells, buffs, etc. That's what makes the whole genre for the most part unless you're one of those story mongers who really should read books more and play games less IMO.

I generally play console based RPGS without ever grinding levels. For example just now I beat DQ4 for my first time, and I chose the fortune teller as my healer because I heard she learns "multi-heal" earlier. Too bad she never did before I beat the game, or any other character for that matter. OOPS. Now I didn't cheat or anything to make my level even lower, but while I often avoid grinding levels if I can to increase the challenge on an otherwise too-easy genre, I still enjoy the feeling I get of leveling occasionally. While you may not, that's just your own personal tastes disliking a near-fundamental piece of the entire RPG genre. That has little to do with MMOS.

But reading more I guess your own personal problem is you feel leveling takes too long. In a regular RPG you can just play thru normally, do every dungeon, do a buncha quests in each town, and naturally work your way at the end and beat it. MMORPGS regularly have a restriction where you absolutely MUST be an arbitrary level to enter this dungeon or whatever. I can respect a distaste for that, but I think it's an over-reaction on anybody's part to label MMORPGS as a waste of time and money because of that one tidbit when it shares so many things in common with other non MMO games that people seem to enjoy.

The bottom line is MMORPGS are not a waste of time or money as long as you're having fun playing it. If you're not enjoying it, then stop playing it. The wasted time isn't the game's fault, it's simply a matter of taste on your part. Human beings can be addicted to these games to a point where it really is unhealthy yes, but that kind of behaviour happens with non MMORPGS too. Actually, it's generally something *EVERY* form of major entertainment gets accused of when it's relatively new.

Television was accused of this when it was new and entertaining to kids, Dungeons and dragons too, then video games in general, now it's MMORPGS. 10-20 more years people wont be saying this, and I can bet my leg that any new form of entertainment that gets invented in that timeframe will be looked up with great disdain by many people in the future, it always happens.

Bananamatic

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2009, 02:12:25 PM »
post
Leveling in RPGs and MMOs are 2 different things....endgame, it doesn't take more than a few hours to max out your party and I avoid it unless I have to(Persona 3 for example forced me to grind for hours, but I've enjoyed every single minute of it and every single boss that went down really made me feel accomplished)
MMOs are just a long grind. A really long one.

I consider MMOs a waste of money since I don't enjoy grinding at all. It's that vision of "oh god look at what all can I wield, cast and do at a higher level" but when you reach it after a year, it isn't that awesome at all and I've realized that I've wasted 1500 hours on nothing.

They are indeed well done to make the people hooked and waste money, but I'm not falling for it anymore.
But if you enjoy it, I'm not going to bash you. In that case, it's not a waste of money, but for me, it is.

I also like normal RPGs for boss battles. It feels great to drop a boss after a close 20 minute battle so you can go on with the story and you'll look forward to it on other playthroughs.

In MMOs, you kill a boss without any added epicness, no great BGM, you just hit it down while tanking him yourself or letting a party member eat the damage, loot him, and guess what.....

....kill him again for more loot. It's just another form of grinding. Now with added luck.

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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2009, 02:23:20 PM »
WHY does NOBODY get that a lot of good MMORPGs can be played for free!

In MMOs, you kill a boss without any added epicness, no great BGM, you just hit it down while tanking him yourself or letting a party member eat the damage, loot him, and guess what.....

Uhhh "no great BGM?" What MMORPGs have YOU been playing?

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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2009, 03:15:29 PM »
WHY does NOBODY get that a lot of good MMORPGs can be played for free!

Uhhh "no great BGM?" What MMORPGs have YOU been playing?
Tell me one good FREE one.(no limited crap which is supposed to make you buy premium)

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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2009, 03:18:05 PM »
I've always believed such MMO doesn't exist.
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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2009, 03:19:57 PM »
Tell me one good FREE one.(no limited crap which is supposed to make you buy premium)
Valkyrie Sky? dBu's music kicks ass in this one.

RainfallYoshi

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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2009, 05:31:16 PM »
Free MMORPG List

Take your pick. There's plenty of them.

Honestly, MMOs are only a waste of money if you want it to be. Do you have to buy those sexy cash items to perform well? No. Granted, some games skewer the cash item system by making cash items incredibly overpowered (Trickster is infamous for this), but the smart developers won't do this.

It irks me that people think that an MMO must somehow cost money if it's going to be considered good.

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2009, 03:11:36 AM »
GunBound has an option (in the form of arenas) to play with avatar items disabled, these would be examples of fair matches, and aren't boring ones.
Gunbound is more of a skill/strategy based game than it is stat based.  Stats help, but just because you have attack maxed out doesn't mean you're automatically going to beat everyone weaker than you.

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2009, 03:13:28 AM »
AlexX:
dedicated players of single-player/2P games (that have competitive value, like.. shmups and fighting games) are able to hold their own standings (against casual players) without needing in-game advantages. If play time is so important to players of MMOGs, they could at least admit that they're not being tested for their skills more than they're being tested for the amount of time they've spent playing.
That doesn't change that you are effectively saying we should punish the people who take more time and effort to improve.

If someone really does have no life and plays each day out of their week, why should they be no better off than someone who just started the game that day? If these two people in question are on the exact same level, that means the person who spent more time and effort to learn the game's mechanics and figure out the most efficient way to go about things has effectively just wasted their time when they could have just signed on that day without any prior work beforehand and have had just as much a chance of winning then as they do now.

Oh, and don't try to argue "well MMOs are a waste of time in general." All video games take time, and saying one game is a better way of spending it than another is rather elitist.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 03:15:07 AM by AlexX »

"What do you mean 'stop repeating everything you say'?"

Bananamatic

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2009, 05:24:40 AM »
Oh, and don't try to argue "well MMOs are a waste of time in general." All video games take time, and saying one game is a better way of spending it than another is rather elitist.
When you think that way, even living is a waste of time.

It's a waste of time when you don't enjoy it. For some reason, I've played MMOs even when I didn't really have fun.

Of course that one game is a better way of spending time than another if you enjoy it more than the other. It just differs from person to person. :V

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2009, 02:24:14 PM »
Lifespring Infinity:
sometimes, the level/equip difference does help (as in, "damn, he should be dead by now!"), if you can't bung said player. Of course, it's fun when we can :D

AlexX:
perhaps you're under the impression that said single-player/2P games penalize players who've dedicated themselves more to them. That's not accurate.

- Execution: if you practice shmups more, your precision increases, and you'll be able to perform progressively difficult maneuvers (for survival and/or score). If you practice fighting games more, that precision helps you pull out special movements (from the most troublesome, to the most basic) with a greater success ratio, when you need them, and helps you perform increasingly difficult and efficient (emphasis on efficient) combos, that allow you to take the most out of each attack opportunity (given that your opponent defends himself/herself well enough to make such a difference become a necessity, or at least highly demanded).

- Psychological preparation: if you practice shmups/fgs more, you'll become less anxious as you become more familiar with the situations you'll encounter on them, and/or learn how to handle your stress; sometimes, you can even use it to your advantage, as there are times where you shouldn't feel all relaxed, either (and for fighting games, you can use/increase your opponent's instability to induce mistakes, or delude your opponent into thinking that you're going to behave as he/she expects you to).
Besides, live fighting game tournaments are tense environments, where you don't perform as well as in other environments. One mistake that you do gives the opponent an advantage that he will try to maintain/increase, further pressuring you. A couple mistakes in critical moments can lead to your defeat, and you'll be out. Virtues such as self-control, concentration and endurance (among others) help you maintain your play level, and you'll surely need every little help against such high-level players.

- Knowledge: one of the factors of the longevity of competitive games (besides the fun provided by their game systems) is the depth, the possibilities that they have. If we exhaust the possibilities of a game, or come close to it (and have done enough research in order to come to this conclusion), we get tired of it. (think of Tic-Tac-Toe.)

 For shmups, let's take Armed Police Batrider, as an example. If you learn to chain medals and bomb scenery elements, you'll score decently, but not as much as those who take one step further and plan ahead their ship selection (to meet certain bosses, some ships/characters from different teams have to be alive in your team when you reach them. Plus, the game has a difficulty rank system that encourages suicides in order to decrease the difficulty according to how few lives you have, and score play, in order to regain lives. Some ships score better on stages and bosses than others, and you'll want to have the right ships at the right times) and start using their aura more often. Of course, Knowing Is Half The Battle, since the higher the reward, the higher the risk involved.

For fighting games, at times you may discover that a move A from character B inhibits most of your opponent's actions. Someone else may, though, come better prepared and (but not limited to)
a: know beforehand (or from previous experiences) how to counter that move A
b: know beforehand to not give you chances to abuse move A
c: compensate by using advantages of their character's gameplay over yours (for example, more speed, or more range, or being able to attack safely and reducing the amount of opportunities that you could use to damage him)
d: pick some other character (rock-paper-scissors, remember?)

I was just using a basic example here. There's much theory behind playing fighting games, such as zoning, space control, frame advantages, character match-ups (fireballer vs. someone who has plenty of tools to handle them, or grappler vs. someone who has the means to escape and/or keep them away), efficiency of certain moves versus certain characters (example: "don't do move A against character B, because if character B jumps over it, you'll be open for his combo/throw/super move", "use move A to prevent your opponent from using move B against you", "don't jump against character C"), setups (if you manage to get your opponent placed where you want at the right times, you can attack them through several options with relative safety, and your opponent must defend the one you chose), yomi (foresight, being able to understand your opponent and counter them properly), mix-ups (your means to confuse your opponent, vary your moves, make yourself less predictable and create attack opportunities), hit confirms (confirming if your attack has connected without being blocked before continuing a combo that would otherwise be punishable, or waste a super move), traps (you may induce your opponent to do a mistake that he/she didn't know or wasn't expecting), situational combos, option selects, besides game-specific resources (kara-throwing, priority linking, negative edge, piano inputs, guard breaks)


There's still other virtues such as adaptability, fast responses, improvisation, observativeness, conservativeness/willingness to take risks. You put a bit of yourself in such games, and if you lose (or even if you win), you understand that there's room for self-improvement. If you lose (in shmups/fighting games), the match still seems fair. If you win, you'll see how your previous efforts paid off. (see, for example, the ending of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv7fCr6QFis -- I recommend watching all the three parts, for the informative value)
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2009, 03:54:06 PM »
I have cleverly avoided getting addicted to online gaming by not playing shitty games 8)

Bananamatic

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2009, 06:43:28 PM »
I have cleverly avoided getting addicted to online gaming by not playing shitty games 8)
The best way to not get addicted is to avoid it like plague.
You just say that you'll "try it out" and 1 month later you are playing it like a zombie.

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2009, 01:29:22 AM »
Stuff
This stuff is all irrelevant. Your original complaint was that playing MMOs was pointless because you'll always lose to people who have been playing longer. This means you either want to play on par with everyone else the moment you first start the game, or believe the gap between you and people who have played longer will always exist, both of which are false. A game where someone new can take out experts is not a well-balanced game at all. MMOs always have a level cap, and generally, the gap between the levels becomes smaller and smaller as you begin to reach it. Take a look at people level 100 and level 130 in PSO: the difference is much, MUCH smaller compared to say, between a level 1 and a level 30 (not to mention levelling in MMOs generally doesn't start to become a real grind until you're about 3/4 the way to the level cap or so).

You claim that skill is not a factor, but that's not true, or at least not once you reach high-level play. There's more to DPS in an MMO than just hammering the attack button... Try that in the aforementioned PSO. You'll find yourself dead quite quickly. Managing your skills and items, as well as the proper timing for using them, is just as important, if not more important, than getting the resident superweapon.

If you lose a dungeon you learn better strategies for tackling it, if a skill turns out to be ineffective to your playing style you will stop training it and put your focus into something with a better payoff. There's always room to improve.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 01:32:38 AM by AlexX »

"What do you mean 'stop repeating everything you say'?"

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2009, 01:50:04 AM »
Lifespring Infinity:
sometimes, the level/equip difference does help (as in, "damn, he should be dead by now!"), if you can't bung said player. Of course, it's fun when we can :D
Well, it's kind of dependent on a multitude of factors.  If someone uses Mammoth and decides to dual shot his 2nd shot through a force column and they happen to have maxed attack, it's going to make a huge difference compared to maxing attack with something like J.D.

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2009, 04:05:55 PM »
Your original complaint was that playing MMOs was pointless because you'll always lose to people who have been playing longer. This means you either want to play on par with everyone else the moment you first start the game, or believe the gap between you and people who have played longer will always exist, both of which are false.
my complaint is that MMOs don't reward skill more than playtime. Which causes that issue (losing to people who've merely played the game for more time and had been given and helped by material advantages). And tell me, how can one expect to catch up with someone else who've played longer, if that person can just keep playing as much as you? And, how isn't this reduced to a contest of who has grinded more for levels/equips/items?


A game where someone new can take out experts is not a well-balanced game at all.
that doesn't happen in competitive single-player/2-player games, either. Someone who excels at various games often will be defeated by specialists in a game, who've focused in improving in said game more (this can be sometimes said for game characters!). You may also notice that in these games, playtime is a consequence, how well you play is what really matters. No need for lvl. 60 Chun Lis here.


MMOs always have a level cap, and generally, the gap between the levels becomes smaller and smaller as you begin to reach it. Take a look at people level 100 and level 130 in PSO: the difference is much, MUCH smaller compared to say, between a level 1 and a level 30 (not to mention levelling in MMOs generally doesn't start to become a real grind until you're about 3/4 the way to the level cap or so).
levels aren't the biggest problem, overupgraded equips/rare equips are. Some items can be so powerful, that their availability can change an invading guild's strategy, and the defending guild's defense strategy. Items that change your element to ghost (considering you can switch clothes during battle, provided your character isn't somehow disabled), meaning that you receive 75% less damage from non-elemental weapons/magic skills (but more damage from some others), shields that make you immune to magic skills, garments that allow non-assassin classes to become invisible and walk away from someone who might be attacking him/her and doesn't have the means to reveal him/her? Armors that make your character unfreezeable and give a chance to cast an anti-AoE field around you when your character is hit? Equipments that allow non Lord-Knight classes to use a skill (Frenzy) that increases their HP to 300% (and also refills their HP fully, to that 300%), ASpd (dramatically) and (iirc) their movespeed, at the cost of losing their defenses and having their skills disabled for its duration? weapons that have a chance to destroy (not permanently) the opponent's weapons/armor, and can be slotted to receive cards that increase that chance?
When the previously obtained "cost-effective" gear start to fall behind, or if you choose to have better equipment, then there will be more work to do. Equipments can be so rewarding (which means, worthy spending time into them in these games) that some players find spending time into some important (and not so difficult to obtain, since their level isn't yet maxed) equipments will make their characters more effective than if you just reached the level/job level cap without said equipments (but again, that's a RO example, which might be game-specific). Then, they may resume leveling up characters. (and after reaching 99/70, at least before the new classes, they would gain exp for the guild and concentrate on equipments.)

You claim that skill is not a factor, but that's not true, or at least not once you reach high-level play. There's more to DPS in an MMO than just hammering the attack button... Try that in the aforementioned PSO. You'll find yourself dead quite quickly. Managing your skills and items, as well as the proper timing for using them, is just as important, if not more important, than getting the resident superweapon.
if you're underleveled, you'll have fewer chances of winning. If your opponent plays just as well as you (or even a bit worse), you'll have more losses than wins. If said person defeats you, was it the player that defeated you, or the character (the advantages given by the game, with the illusory notion that more playtime necessarily means that that player plays better)?
Of course, knowing tactics is important, the wood doesn't defend itself [/Bruce Lee]. But, if you were ever to almost defeat someone, and then get defeated not because of the opponent's merit, but because of levels/equipments, wouldn't it be frustrating? Like, I'm new at this school, and physically just as capable as the other dude who has some years here. Then, we somehow get to fight, or he chases me for some weird reason. But wait! He brought his friends with him! Now.. how do we know how well that person would do, if he didn't have said friends? We won't know. He will likely say that he "fought better", or at least admit that he's not so sure about it. (he may even be right, who knows?)

(by the way, I normally play with wizard-type characters, and maintain that levels and equipments -- the "resident superweapon", or the lots of them, overupgraded as much as viable -- play a more important role than how well you play, provided that your opponent plays well)


If you lose a dungeon you learn better strategies for tackling it, if a skill turns out to be ineffective to your playing style you will stop training it and put your focus into something with a better payoff. There's always room to improve.
dungeons aren't much of a problem, compared to fighting other guilds, or even if your group gets to fight another (if you're leveling up and your group is met by another, for example). There's still room for macro/micro management, like, overprotecting a wizard in RO, that was only there to tank damage and serve as a bait to divert attacks that would otherwise wear down the other wizards in his guild, or in L2, sending one really-hella-fast member run past the opposing group (in the case of group pvp), that runs so fast that the opponents can't even click him, and as they try to chase him, they've turned their backs to the other team. Or taking out certain classes first, or take out the weaker/lower-leveled characters first and then play defensively. But, if the opponents fall for these tactics too often without offerring just as much danger than your team, then they're not good enough (note, that the equipment/playtime doesn't even matter if the player is that bad).


In some MMORPG's defense, though, they may provide proper tournament environments, and guess what, the same resources are available to its participants at the start of the matches (same number of team members, limited cash to spend on equipments/items on special NPCs, one class type per team, n advanced classes per team, etc.).

.............. lol, I can't forget how a (perhaps a couple of years old, by now) brazilian RO tournament ended. One of the teams were boasting, overconfidently, at the semi-finals, by letting the last of the opposing team members alive, and having a level-capped hunter (bow-user class) hit that survivor (don't remember) with his/her fists, which dealt 1 damage and is clearly not a viable way of taking someone out.

What happens at the final? That same team gets to lose, because the hunter has forgot to reequip his bow, and thus remained useless in that match until it was too late for that team. (my mention of him being level-capped also means that for this edition, there was no equal resources. Funny, how some other participants would boast/exhibit their Angel Helms/Helms of Angel, when bRO was starting, and write out in-game claims of how well he played and how jealous other people should feel)
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2009, 09:09:34 PM »
my complaint is that MMOs don't reward skill more than playtime. Which causes that issue (losing to people who've merely played the game for more time and had been given and helped by material advantages). And tell me, how can one expect to catch up with someone else who've played longer, if that person can just keep playing as much as you? And, how isn't this reduced to a contest of who has grinded more for levels/equips/items?
Play time =/= skill.

And it's not just a grind contest. If someone has just grinded themselves to the level cap and economy'd themselves the best equipment it won't matter if they don't know how to properly use high-level skills. Continuing to use PSO as an example, you can have an Angel Harp and be level 50, but a level 30 with a simple railgun can take you out if they make good use of spells and items while all you do is stand there and shoot them all day, hoping your rare items and dodge/block % will do all the work.

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that doesn't happen in competitive single-player/2-player games, either. Someone who excels at various games often will be defeated by specialists in a game, who've focused in improving in said game more (this can be sometimes said for game characters!). You may also notice that in these games, playtime is a consequence, how well you play is what really matters. No need for lvl. 60 Chun Lis here.
Again, this applies to MMOs. Its not just levelling, its proper stat and skill distribution. If you don't know the optimal ways to fight you'll just fall behind, even if you're at the level cap.

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Broken equipment
Which MMO are we talking, here? Obviously, there are some MMOs better at balancing their equipment than others.

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When the previously obtained "cost-effective" gear start to fall behind, or if you choose to have better equipment, then there will be more work to do. Equipments can be so rewarding (which means, worthy spending time into them in these games) that some players find spending time into some important (and not so difficult to obtain, since their level isn't yet maxed) equipments will make their characters more effective than if you just reached the level/job level cap without said equipments (but again, that's a RO example, which might be game-specific). Then, they may resume leveling up characters. (and after reaching 99/70, at least before the new classes, they would gain exp for the guild and concentrate on equipments.)
It quite honestly sounds like RO has some pretty major balancing issues.

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if you're underleveled, you'll have fewer chances of winning.If your opponent plays just as well as you (or even a bit worse), you'll have more losses than wins. If said person defeats you, was it the player that defeated you, or the character (the advantages given by the game, with the illusory notion that more playtime necessarily means that that player plays better)?
Define "underlevelled". That is, how big a level gap before it starts making a difference? Also, does the game force you to PvP or is it optional?

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Of course, knowing tactics is important, the wood doesn't defend itself. But, if you were ever to almost defeat someone, and then get defeated not because of the opponent's merit, but because of levels/equipments, wouldn't it be frustrating? Like, I'm new at this school, and physically just as capable as the other dude who has some years here. Then, we somehow get to fight, or he chases me for some weird reason. But wait! He brought his friends with him! Now.. how do we know how well that person would do, if he didn't have said friends? We won't know. He will likely say that he "fought better", or at least admit that he's not so sure about it. (he may even be right, who knows?)
I'm not understanding this... You mean you're winning and then just suddenly lose? Or that the opponent has friends that help gang up on you?

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(by the way, I normally play with wizard-type characters, and maintain that levels and equipments -- the "resident superweapon", or the lots of them, overupgraded as much as viable -- play a more important role than how well you play, provided that your opponent plays well)
Yeah, I'm starting to think that RO just has some major balance issues.

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(note, that the equipment/playtime doesn't even matter if the player is that bad).
Wait, weren't you arguing that it does?

Rest of the stuff isn't really anything to argue about, so I'll leave it and go back to bananamaniac's post:

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When you think that way, even living is a waste of time.
Somehow strikes me as something Shikieiki or Komachi might say.

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It's a waste of time when you don't enjoy it.
I can understand that, but that doesn't change that people keep telling me to stop playing them because they're just a waste of time, even though I DO enjoy them.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 05:20:16 AM by AlexX »

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RainfallYoshi

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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #83 on: November 20, 2009, 10:54:13 PM »
As someone that's been playing RO for a really long time, I shall come to its defense.

Firstly, while equipment does play a pretty important role, it's not going to make the difference between a win and a loss. Sure, people obsess over getting their armors and weapons upgraded to ridiculous amounts, but that's not going to make a huge difference in the long run. Really, as long as you aren't running around in a cotton shirt, you will be able to make do with what you have. People only obsess over upgrading their armors and weapons for flair. A +7 Padded Armor sure does sound more epic than an un-upgraded Padded Armor now doesn't it? Doesn't mean it's going to give that big of an advantage.

Secondly, if you're trying to run around in PVP or WoE (War of Emperium, the guild vs guild system of RO) at Level 30 then of course your going to have these kind of complaints. You can't expect to be able to perform just as well as anyone else at a low level.

And I would say that RO has done a pretty good job at class balancing as well. Sure, there's some match-ups that would show some obvious advantages towards one side (Hunter vs. Assassin for example, the Hunter's extremely high hit would get past the Assassin's dodge) but it doesn't really mean the other side can't win.

Also, you mention a lot of equipment and cards that are going to be EXTREMELY hard to get a hold of. The Lord Knight Seyren card (gives access to Frenzy for other non Lord Knight classes) drops from an MVP that is found in an incredibly high leveled area with really high-leveled mobs. Even large parties of experienced players can die very easily in that area if they aren't careful. I might also note that the drop rate of that card is 0.01%. I'm confused on why you complain about balancing issues of such rare items. Usually in a highly populated server, there's not even that many MVP cards floating around at all unless it's a really high rate server.

I might also mention that Frenzy reduces your def, mdef, and flee to 0.

I would understand your argument if this kind of gear was common, but the fact is that this gear is extremely hard to get a hold of. Even in the official servers of RO, there's usually only anywhere between 1~10 copies of such a rare item floating around, and you can bet they're worth hundreds of millions.

trancehime

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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #84 on: November 21, 2009, 02:01:00 AM »
And then there's the fact that private servers exist.

There are various private servers where drop rates are jacked up to make it a 100% rare item/card drop.

Others have malls installed where almost every damn item can be bought if you have the Zenny for it, and though MVP cards may or may not be present, these servers also tend to have events where MVP cards can be obtained easily - I've gotten Valkyrie Randgris cards, Turtle General cards and the like on such servers >_>

These servers also tend to have high level caps, which make skill far more necessary than gear set-up (though the gear set-up helps a bit). In a server where every damn player is Lv500 (because the exp rate is like 9m/9m/10k or something) you need to be able to hold your own and having a shoddy skillset alongside decent gear isn't going to do jack shit.

Even in the official servers of RO, there's usually only anywhere between 1~10 copies of such a rare item floating around, and you can bet they're worth hundreds of millions.

You mean only in official servers of RO. Nobody plays in private servers that don't change the drop rate, and I doubt any of those exist anyway - the lowest rate server I've played at least boasted a 10% card drop rate for normal mobs and a 0.1% card drop rate for MVPs.

my complaint is that MMOs don't reward skill more than playtime. Which causes that issue (losing to people who've merely played the game for more time and had been given and helped by material advantages). And tell me, how can one expect to catch up with someone else who've played longer, if that person can just keep playing as much as you? And, how isn't this reduced to a contest of who has grinded more for levels/equips/items?

This is false. Haven't you read a word AlexX said? You need a combination of both knowledge of how your skills work, when to use them, the proper timing, appropriate counters for other classes, and such in order for you to stand your ground against even opponents of an EQUAL level. That's not how MMORPGs are supposed to work.

I'll cite a browser MMORPG I've been playing since earlier this year, where levels really do not matter at all, but rather, knowing how the game works and having the appropriate measures to defeating your opponents:

http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/10356504/owner/33693
(Xmoonstar [Lv30] vs Fenelia me [Lv20])

This was a battle that took place when my character Fenelia was only Lv20, and just class changed to the first tier (Recruit). Fenelia only had 280 HP, and the attacker, "Xmoonstar," had a 121 HP advantage, a 10 level advantage (meaning access to more gear). Ignore the spirit advantage, that does not matter in this battle - I still won on the defense because the attacker seemed to have no idea what he was doing. He still uses low-level gear, he has no deck synergy, and he has none of the major important charms to be obtained in the 20s, such as Night Cloaks (Extra Action, +5 to melee ongoing, lose 5 life).

9
Xmoonstar88 uses [Duelist Sprite Invocation]
Xmoonstar88 summons a Sprite
Sprite shoots a water bolt, Fenelia takes 6 magic damage

10
Fenelia uses [Warrior's Earth Staff]
Xmoonstar88 takes 78 magic damage
Xmoonstar88 takes 8 melee damage

11
Xmoonstar88 uses [Greater Lightning Scroll]
Fenelia takes 13 magic damage
Sprite shoots a water bolt, Fenelia takes 6 magic damage

12
Fenelia uses [Mud Splash]
Xmoonstar88 takes 25 melee damage
Xmoonstar88 takes 8 magic damage

** Battle status **
Xmoonstar88 : 277/401 HP, 0 Armor, 0 Ward, 3 Willpower, 28/34 Charm(s) left
Fenelia : 255/280 HP, 0 Armor, 0 Ward, 0 Willpower, 29/35 Charm(s) left

In about 2 rounds I already shaved off 130 HP off my opponent (the previous rounds were spent setting up my method of attack - high damage burst), whereas I only lost around 25. My opponent essentially only did around 20% of my total damage despite being 10 levels higher and having far more HP than I did. Hell, the game even REWARDS you with being able to defeat opponents of a higher level than you.

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that doesn't happen in competitive single-player/2-player games, either. Someone who excels at various games often will be defeated by specialists in a game, who've focused in improving in said game more (this can be sometimes said for game characters!). You may also notice that in these games, playtime is a consequence, how well you play is what really matters. No need for lvl. 60 Chun Lis here.

It doesn't happen in competitive games because it's not supposed to. An MMORPG that introduces factors or is rebalanced so someone who is completely new can take out a so-called specialist is bullshit and shouldn't be played, because that goes against how PvP should work. Highly skilled players of a high level should be encouraged to take on those who are better than them in skill, but lower leveled players shouldn't be given BENEFITS just because they're NEW. If they want to excel at a low level, they have to work for it and conduct research on how the game works. I know that's what I did

http://www.estiah.com/pvp/coliseum/tournament/id/51975
http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/coliseum/51975/id/363825
(Fenelia me [Lv26, L] vs Bateau [Lv26, W])

Yeah, the fighters are at an equal level, but you have to note that there are many different strategies to employ in any PvP scene. Notice that earlier I did a burst damage approach, here I tried to tank and exhaust the opponent - I lost, but that proves that knowing the game well is a huge advantage over just having high levels and having an HP advantage.

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Of course, knowing tactics is important, the wood doesn't defend itself [/Bruce Lee]. But, if you were ever to almost defeat someone, and then get defeated not because of the opponent's merit, but because of levels/equipments, wouldn't it be frustrating? Like, I'm new at this school, and physically just as capable as the other dude who has some years here. Then, we somehow get to fight, or he chases me for some weird reason. But wait! He brought his friends with him! Now.. how do we know how well that person would do, if he didn't have said friends? We won't know. He will likely say that he "fought better", or at least admit that he's not so sure about it. (he may even be right, who knows?)

This pisses me off so much because there are only a few isolated cases of MMORPGs where people can gang up on you - RO is one of them, so you chose like one of the worst examples to defend your case. Most PvP systems feature a fair 1v1 or a team-based system. Arad Senki/Dungeon Fighter Online/DNF is one of them. In PvP, you can either have a team battle or single combat. Gear for certain classes here is important, but not as important as knowing which skills have priority, which skills have wonky hitboxes, the appropriate spacing for your skills not to whiff, zoning, placement, etc. There's NEVER an instance where an opponent wins not of his own merit - there are VERY FEW high level players who do not know what they are doing - they got to that level, WITH that high gear, for a good reason - because they exerted effort into doing it. That's how MMORPGs work because you aren't the only player playing the damn game. Of course there's going to be a skill gap, but the skill gap between two individuals playing WILL ALWAYS NARROW, it's just that since there are SO MANY PLAYERS, you are making a gross generalization of the genre.

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helvetica

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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #85 on: November 21, 2009, 02:33:06 AM »
"Skill" in any game is 95% playing the game a lot and understanding the system, 4% luck, 1% "reflexes".

You can't tell me that just by playing other RPGs you could pick up a random RPG and be able to beat shit at a very low level, or innately knowing the tricks and how the system works.  There is very little knowledge that carries over from game to game.  Even between FPSes, the epitome of execution and reflex-based game play, very few skills and knowledge transfer between games.  While you may be able to pick up things faster in TF2 if you were a pro Quake player you're not going to be as good as another pro Quake who's played the game for a while.  A person who plays more is going to beat someone who's just casual or just picked up the game, 99% of the time, in ANY game.

BTW it's how it works in real life.  Someone who's done a task more times generally has more skill and is better than someone who's just starting to do something or may only do it occasionally.  Most of our reflexes and skills are not innate, they are trained.  Stuff like muscle memory, or intuition, are all based on either repeating a certain set of steps over and over, or based on recognizing similar situations and resolutions and being able to deduct approaches from it.

And you complain about level disparities and bring up a random ass gamesutra quote to back your statements up.  Guess what, 99% of people who PvP on MMOs, do it at level cap, they don't do it at level 10.  And even then most games have tiers so a 90 can't stomp on a 2, and in well designed games the gaps between levels aren't that big.  Look at EVE, yes someone who started the game before you is going to be more efficient and have better stats for their build than you, but we're talking a 5-10% difference at most, which can generally be overcome with better tactics or gearing or ship outfits.  And in Warhammer Online they actually buff your stats and skills in PvP to be equivalent to a middle-ranged level in each tier.  Only thing you lose is you don't have the wider skill selections, but the skills you have still hit as hard as someone of that level.

Is it not an even playing field?  Yeah, but so what?  You're going to lose to someone who's played more even if everything else was equal simply because they are more familiar to the system and the quirks and exploits.


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Ghaleon

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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #86 on: November 21, 2009, 06:01:52 AM »
I'm not sure why the pro-mmo crowd is offended by the skill debate compared to some of the other things said myself. While it's difficult to say just how much skill matters in mmos over other games, I have to admit that "general gaming skills" seem to matter less in an MMO than they do in most action-focused games. Of course as MMOs evolve, they are slowly becoming more action-oriented themselves I find. I agree with Shadowbringer in his opinion that MMOS favor playtime more than they do skill. While that might be true for many games that aren't MMO based, I have to say I agree that your average has the scales weighted towards playtime versus skill more than most offline games. It's simply a matter of personal taste in my opinion if you like it balanced that way or not. I personally like it either way.

Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #87 on: November 21, 2009, 06:28:25 AM »
If someone has just grinded themselves to the level cap and economy'd themselves the best equipment it won't matter if they don't know how to properly use high-level skills.
a high-leveled character is expected to play just as well as you, at least, if he/she is to be taken seriously. If said high-leveled player doesn't know how to use his/her skills, then it's not you who earned a hard victory, it's the opponent that played terribly, so terribly that even with advantages he/she wasn't able to win, what to say if he/she played with equal conditions?
So, if a high-leveled character is expected to play just as well as you, he/she will be able to make proper use of any advantages he/she may have. The more advantages, the more chances he/she has to come out victorious.

Again, this applies to MMOs. Its not just levelling, its proper stat and skill distribution. If you don't know the optimal ways to fight you'll just fall behind, even if you're at the level cap
consider that you'll be fighting others that do know said optimal ways to fight, and as I mentioned before, if they do play well enough, they'll learn to use their advantages (given by lead in playtime) against you, if they have them. Bad selection of character skills and equipment sets shouldn't be considered here, if they play as well as you (if they don't, let's disregard them. It's no achievement to use them as a measure of improvement), they'll probably take some time to adapt themselves to your gameplay, and likely not fall for the same mistakes twice.

Which MMO are we talking, here? Obviously there are some MMOs better at balancing their equipment than others, but either way, the thing about rare items is that its not just high-levels that can get them. It's indiscriminate in that way, which can be a good or bad thing, but it doesn't favor anyone in particular.
if you spend time trying to get these rare/overupgraded items (overupgraded items aren't necessarily rare, but they're hoarded and then upgraded past their safe limits), that would be an advantage; for rare items, spending time trying to obtain them increases the chances of obtaining them.

Define "underlevelled". That is, how big a level gap before it starts making a difference? Also, does the game force you to PvP or is it optional?
underleveled would be the case when you encounter an opponent that has more levels (and more importantly, better equipments, but I didn't express myself clearly enough) than you.
Guild vs. Guild (War of Emperiums in RO, Castle Sieges in L2..) events are as optional as PvPing/raiding. In Lineage 2, PvP is enabled in PvE environments (it's possible to kill someone who doesn't want to fight you, but there are penalties to it, namely, the Karma system), and there's a PvP arena, besides Duel commands and Party Duel commands.

I'm not understanding this... You mean you're winning and then just suddenly lose? Or that the opponent has friends that help gang up on you?
friends ganging up on you.

Quote
(note, that the equipment/playtime doesn't even matter if the player is that bad).
Wait, weren't you arguing that it does?
they do matter, if the player knows how to use their advantages to his/her favor, as mentioned before in this post.
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

trancehime

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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #88 on: November 21, 2009, 09:25:00 AM »
I'm not sure why the pro-mmo crowd is offended by the skill debate compared to some of the other things said myself.

I'm more offended that the "fair" advocates expect that every damn thing in an MMORPG has to be biased to the newer players. If the newer players are willing to learn the ropes and there are nice high-levels willing to mentor them, that's a fair enough advantage for them. The game shouldn't have to bend over to appease them.

a high-leveled character is expected to play just as well as you, at least, if he/she is to be taken seriously. If said high-leveled player doesn't know how to use his/her skills, then it's not you who earned a hard victory, it's the opponent that played terribly, so terribly that even with advantages he/she wasn't able to win, what to say if he/she played with equal conditions?
So, if a high-leveled character is expected to play just as well as you, he/she will be able to make proper use of any advantages he/she may have. The more advantages, the more chances he/she has to come out victorious.

Why does the focus always have to be the high-level player? In a high-level metagame, even "average"-level equipment and gear are considered bad, so it could be that the said high-level character had decent gear for his level and thus HAS the advantage of better gear, and has barebones knowledge of his skills for PvP and PvE. Even with the gear and HP advantage, a low level player who IS a specialist can easily take over and defeat a high level player.

http://www.estiah.com/character/combat/replay/id/13437545/owner/45687
(Graybutcher [L14, L] vs Kuonhime me [L11, W])

Okay so this replay cheats because the low level HAS MORE HP THAN THE ONE WITH THE LEVEL ADVANTAGE, but that proves my point even more: Knowing the game can easily give lower level a chance against higher level players.

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consider that you'll be fighting others that do know said optimal ways to fight, and as I mentioned before, if they do play well enough, they'll learn to use their advantages (given by lead in playtime) against you, if they have them. Bad selection of character skills and equipment sets shouldn't be considered here, if they play as well as you (if they don't, let's disregard them. It's no achievement to use them as a measure of improvement), they'll probably take some time to adapt themselves to your gameplay, and likely not fall for the same mistakes twice.

So why don't you adapt too?

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if you spend time trying to get these rare/overupgraded items (overupgraded items aren't necessarily rare, but they're hoarded and then upgraded past their safe limits), that would be an advantage; for rare items, spending time trying to obtain them increases the chances of obtaining them.

There are rare/overupgraded items for nearly every level range anyway, and some games allow enchanting of these gears to compliment a given strategy.

Quote
underleveled would be the case when you encounter an opponent that has more levels (and more importantly, better equipments, but I didn't express myself clearly enough) than you.
Guild vs. Guild (War of Emperiums in RO, Castle Sieges in L2..) events are as optional as PvPing/raiding. In Lineage 2, PvP is enabled in PvE environments (it's possible to kill someone who doesn't want to fight you, but there are penalties to it, namely, the Karma system), and there's a PvP arena, besides Duel commands and Party Duel commands.

You're describing that a level gap is present, but you don't at all state how many levels the gap is big in order for it to make a significant difference. Check the replays I posted earlier, one had a 3 level gap, the other had a whopping 10 level gap - I still won both of them.

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friends ganging up on you.

Give me a list of 10 MMORPGs that allow this and I'll concede this point.

Quote
they do matter, if the player knows how to use their advantages to his/her favor, as mentioned before in this post.

If a player knows how to use what they've got to his or her favor then it doesn't really matter how long they've played. Much knowledge can be learned prior to playing the game. Actually actuating this knowledge is a different story altogether, but I hope you can extract the message from this.


元素召唤 || pad & msl news translator robit
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Re: Anyone else here that refuses to play online?
« Reply #89 on: November 21, 2009, 11:16:01 AM »
I'm not sure why the pro-mmo crowd is offended by the skill debate compared to some of the other things said myself.
I'm not so much offended as much pissed that they aren't even listening.

1. They apparently want to join in on the game and be able to tackle people who have already been playing for 2 months. We explain that its only natural someone will lose to someone who knows the game better, but they insist learning the game doesn't matter, because apparently those two months are that big an advantage and that the gap between you can never, ever close. Even though Trance has even posted proof lower-levels can still win with good strategy.

2. I explain that proper use of skills is vital, otherwise someone just sitting there and spamming use of their rare weapon will just find themselves kissing the floor. They don't listen and continue to insist that all that matters is how long you've been playing and that skill is meaningless (again, contradicted by Trance's examples).

3. When I ask for more information to understand their point of view...
Quote from: me
Define "underlevelled". That is, how big a level gap before it starts making a difference?
Quote from: them
underleveled would be the case when you encounter an opponent that has more levels (and more importantly, better equipments, but I didn't express myself clearly enough) than you.
They completely dodge my questions.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 11:21:18 AM by AlexX »

"What do you mean 'stop repeating everything you say'?"