~Hakurei Shrine~ > Help Me, Eirin!
Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?
Lunatic_Reimu:
--- Quote from: Dreamleaf on May 07, 2019, 10:43:53 PM ---I can't help much in changing the aspect ratio but I will say I think the reason it feels harder is because you're less accustomed to that ratio, which doesn't surprise me would throw you off a little bit and make it feel harder. From a technical standpoint it technically is just as hard because while the gaps may appear larger, so is your own hitbox as well as the hitboxes of what you're dodging to compensate. That's the main thing to keep in mind, nearly every "advantage" it provides also provides a corresponding disadvantage so it really does even out and imo and really just comes down to preference. It couldn't hurt to try it in the 4:3 ratio more if you feel that's how Touhou should be played, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it feeling like it's given you an actual unfair advantage or that it invalidates what you've done.
It'd be like changing your controller input (keyboard, controller, joystick) it's going to feel awkward at first especially when you're accustomed to playing the game a certain way. With aspect ratio you become use to your character moving a certain speed or certain amount of distance, so when you change that ratio the distance and speed you appear to move across the screen changes as well, which would certainly throw me off in this game where you spend countless hours training your muscle memory to know just how far exactly you'll move across the screen when performing any kind of movement.
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I kept the points you mentioned in mind (believe me I?ve been wrecking my head around this for the past month), and yes I don?t expect to play as good on 4:3 after being accustomed to 16:9 for all this time till I get used to it some more. I also kept in mind that everything scales in proportion (i.e. although the gaps are wider, so is your hitbox and bullets). The problem I?m finding that I?m getting an advantage from is my perception and the way I?m reacting due to that perception. It could be the same cluster of bullets, but on 16:9 my head will say ?go for it?, when on 4:3 I?m finding it more difficult to spot those gaps to pass through. I don?t want any advantages over any other players, even if it?s just perception, so, it?s time to switch to 4:3. I wouldn?t go as far as saying it nullifies what I?ve already accomplished, but from here on out I want to make 100% sure that I?m doing it properly and playing it how it was meant to be played. This will put my mind much more at ease.
Ohhhh changing controllers / inputs will be way worse than changing an aspect ratio! I can?t play on a keyboard to save my life! Been with controllers since I was a kid and got used to them being on them for 25 years xD
So, anyone know some answers to my 4 questions so I can finally put this to rest?
CyberAngel:
1. Yes. Surprised you've played that long with stretched resolution in the first place. Notice how bullets, characters etc. are wider in 16:9? Your horizontal movement is also (visually) faster than vertical if you stretch the game like that. Oh wait, you have. I guess you can get used to that but it's still a huge inaccuracy.
2. Duh. OBS stretches fullscreen video to whatever resolution you want if you tell it to. But as for what to choose, it's probably better to stretch to a whole multiple of original i.e. 1280x960 (which is 640x480 times two in each direction). Anything else might introduce visual errors. I don't have much experience with this, though. Just record the game in different resolutions and see if you can notice the difference.
3. Correct, except IIRC it was DDC that allowed you to change resolution first.
4. Can't answer that but want to chime in since I remember hearing that PC-98 native monitors have different-sized pixels. I don't remember whether they're wider or taller, sadly.
Lunatic_Reimu:
--- Quote from: CyberAngel on May 08, 2019, 12:42:02 PM ---1. Yes. Surprised you've played that long with stretched resolution in the first place. Notice how bullets, characters etc. are wider in 16:9? Your horizontal movement is also (visually) faster than vertical if you stretch the game like that. Oh wait, you have. I guess you can get used to that but it's still a huge inaccuracy.
2. Duh. OBS stretches fullscreen video to whatever resolution you want if you tell it to. But as for what to choose, it's probably better to stretch to a whole multiple of original i.e. 1280x960 (which is 640x480 times two in each direction). Anything else might introduce visual errors. I don't have much experience with this, though. Just record the game in different resolutions and see if you can notice the difference.
3. Correct, except IIRC it was DDC that allowed you to change resolution first.
4. Can't answer that but want to chime in since I remember hearing that PC-98 native monitors have different-sized pixels. I don't remember whether they're wider or taller, sadly.
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Hello CyberAngel,
thanks for answering almost all my questions :)
1. Awesome, so I'll just switch between 16:9 when on my desktop, and 4:3 when I'm going to play :) Honestly the stretched resolution wasn't bothering me at all, if anything everything is looking too squished now in 4:3, but I'll adapt to that in time. It's just cause I've been feeling like I'm getting an advantage at 16:9 / makes the game slightly easier / easier to see gaps which started making me doubt and not enjoy it. Everything is feeling more claustrophobic now in 4:3 so that's a bonus! :D
2. So I just tried recording in 1440x1080, looks flawless, same as the game and my other recording at 1280x960, complete with the black bars :) I'll keep an eye out for artifacts and 'visual errors' in my new recordings just in case.
3. Ahh, you're correct about DDC being the first one. My mistake. Right, so basically only the fighters from 13.5 onwards are in native 16:9 resolution.
4. No worries, thanks for answering what you could. I did some more research and it seems that 8:5 aspect ratio should be viewed in 4:3 rather than 16:9 also. Here's where I found the info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_resolutions which states:
W x H Storage Display
640 x 400 8:5 4:3
I'd prefer it if someone could confirm this though.
Thanks for the help everyone, seems like a huge weight has been lifted off my head by just deciding to go to 4:3. If anyone disagrees with any of my statements or wants to pitch in some more info feel free :)
Agent of the BSoD:
--- Quote from: Lunatic_Reimu on May 07, 2019, 09:09:14 PM ---1. I'm scaling on my Display in the Nvidia Control Panel. Scaling on the GPU is adding input lag compared to Display, so that's not an option. No Scaling, Aspect Ratio and Fullscreen in the Nvidia Control Panel are all doing the same thing, I still end up with the picture always in 16:9 even when No Scaling is selected. So, I'm going into my TV's Picture Options, selecting Size, and switching to 4:3 from there. Doing this is giving me the black bars on the sides even when I'm on my desktop, so I could switch to 16:9 when on my desktop and 4:3 when I'm going to play and this will give me the correct aspect ratio? Is this correct?
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Yes, this is correct. 640x480 is 4:3 so this would be perfectly accurate.
--- Quote from: Lunatic_Reimu on May 07, 2019, 09:09:14 PM ---2. What is the best 4:3 upscaling output resolution to choose for my recording program (OBS) so even the recordings end up in 4:3? When I was recording in 16:9, I was upscaling and outputting a video of 1920x1080 which is a 16:9 resolution, and this made the video exactly like when I was playing, with no black bars. Now, even though I'm switching to 4:3 from my TV's options, the recordings are still coming out in 16:9 since 1920x1080 is a 16:9 resolution. So, I tried setting the upscaling output resolution to 1280x960, and it worked, black bars on the sides :) Would 1440x1080 be better? (i.e. the best 4:3 resolution I could get on a 1080p panel?)
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1280x960 is a perfect integer scale of 640x480, so basically each pixel should theoretically changed from 1x1 pixel to 2x2 pixels (if one uses point sampling scaling that is). Whatever scaling method you use here though should be fine. If you're uploading these to Youtube, I don't recommend this only because Youtube doesn't have a 960p mode, so it'll downscale to 720p. You could always render them out in 960x720 for Youtube, though this is a 1.5x scale. Honestly, most people probably won't spot the scaling difference anyway especially once Youtube compresses the video again. You could also render out in 1920x1440, as this is a 3x scale and Youtube supports this natively, and will provide a 1080p scale. Rendering out to 1440x1080 is not a perfect integer scale but I really don't think it'd be that noticeable unless you were looking for it. If none of this even matters and they're just on your system, it honestly is up to you. This is just my two cents though.
tl;dr: Scale to whatever works for you, it should be fine.
--- Quote from: Lunatic_Reimu on May 07, 2019, 09:09:14 PM ---3. Which Touhou games are in native 16:9 aspect ratio, so I'll know for which I don't need to set it to 4:3 from my TV's options? I think it's Touhou 13.5, 14.5 and 15.5? And the resolution doubles from Ten Desires to 1280x960, so the previous games are all in 640x480?
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--- Quote from: Lunatic_Reimu on May 08, 2019, 03:57:04 PM ---3. Ahh, you're correct about DDC being the first one. My mistake. Right, so basically only the fighters from 13.5 onwards are in native 16:9 resolution.
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Yep, pretty much already answered.
--- Quote from: Lunatic_Reimu on May 07, 2019, 09:09:14 PM ---4. @Agent of the BSoD, PC-98 games use 640x400 resolution which is 8:5 correct? So, which is best to play them in, 16:9 or 4:3?
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If you multiply 8:5 by 2, you get 16:10 (this is the more common numbering for this ratio actually). If you multiply 4:3 by 4, you get 16:12. If you are to stick with either 16:9 or 4:3 on your screen, I'd pick 16:9 as it's much closer to the intended look. 4:3 will be rather squished looking. The PC-98 games are in fact widescreen, just not the standard ratio we currently use today.
Lunatic_Reimu:
--- Quote from: Agent of the BSoD on May 08, 2019, 10:44:52 PM ---Yes, this is correct. 640x480 is 4:3 so this would be perfectly accurate.
1280x960 is a perfect integer scale of 640x480, so basically each pixel should theoretically changed from 1x1 pixel to 2x2 pixels (if one uses point sampling scaling that is). Whatever scaling method you use here though should be fine. If you're uploading these to Youtube, I don't recommend this only because Youtube doesn't have a 960p mode, so it'll downscale to 720p. You could always render them out in 960x720 for Youtube, though this is a 1.5x scale. Honestly, most people probably won't spot the scaling difference anyway especially once Youtube compresses the video again. You could also render out in 1920x1440, as this is a 3x scale and Youtube supports this natively, and will provide a 1080p scale. Rendering out to 1440x1080 is not a perfect integer scale but I really don't think it'd be that noticeable unless you were looking for it. If none of this even matters and they're just on your system, it honestly is up to you. This is just my two cents though.
tl;dr: Scale to whatever works for you, it should be fine.
Yep, pretty much already answered.
If you multiply 8:5 by 2, you get 16:10 (this is the more common numbering for this ratio actually). If you multiply 4:3 by 4, you get 16:12. If you are to stick with either 16:9 or 4:3 on your screen, I'd pick 16:9 as it's much closer to the intended look. 4:3 will be rather squished looking. The PC-98 games are in fact widescreen, just not the standard ratio we currently use today.
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Hello Agent, thanks for jumping in to help again :)
1. Got it. I know it may sound silly, but just confirming to be sure, it doesn't make a difference that my desktop's resolution is set to 1360x768 right? (i.e. I don't need to set a 4:3 resolution for my desktop also right?)
2. Well since both you and CyberAngel recommended having the recordings in a perfect integer scale I'll do that then. Yes, you're correct about Youtube downscaling to 720p, which is why I tried shooting for 1440x1080 so I'll get in the bracket of 1080p which is 12k bitrate, 720p is 7.5k. My recordings come out between 30k - 50k bitrate, so I was worried that Youtube compression would massacre the quality. Tried uploading a video in 1280x960 to test it today and it didn't come out too bad actually, there are some very slight bouts of pixelation due to compression in Sakuya's fight which weren't present in the 1440x1080 upload I tested, but other than that it's all clear! So I guess I'll stick with 1280x960.
3. Yep all clear on this one :)
4. After doing some more thinking and research I'm still not sure on the PC-98 being in 16:9. Let me explain my thoughts:
A.) As you said that doubling 8:5 brings it to 16:10, doubling 4:3 gives you 8:6. If you halve 8:5 it becomes 4:2.5 which is quite close to 4:3 too. (I'm not sure how these things work, don't think I'm trying to be a smart ass, just sharing my thoughts and wanting to learn more).
B.) Did some scrounging around on Youtube and literally all the vids I found for PC-98 are in 4:3 by top players like Jaimers, Zigzag Wolf, even HRtP by another 2 youtubers.
C.) There's some contradicting information on the forums, while you're suggesting 16:9, in the thread how to set up Neko Project II, user Shockdude is stating that the PC-98 games were meant to be played in 4:3 aspect ratio, here's the thread for your reference, it's the final 4 posts at the bottom of the thread: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,11117.30.html
D.) The common resolutions wiki list I linked which is stating that resolution 640 x 400 has a Storage Aspect Ratio of 8:5 and should have a Display Aspect Ratio of 4:3.
I use T98 Next in case it makes a difference. (thanks for the guide for setting that up by the way, was mega helpful xD)
Again, please don't think I'm being an ass or contradicting you with my statements, I just want to be 1000% sure that I'm doing all this right. i just love this magical world so much that I also obsess greatly on it and want it all perfect.
Just want to make it clear that I appreciate everyone's thoughts and help here :)