~Hakurei Shrine~ > Help Me, Eirin!

My first lunatic 1cc

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Dreamleaf: --- Quote from: Raikaria on April 24, 2019, 09:12:38 AM ---Lunatic PoFV is; as far as I am aware, one of the harder 1CC's on account of the fact that the AI's difficulty scales as you win more, which leads to Komachi/Eiki being absurdly hard to defeat in a 1CC. Although I also heard Medicine kinda breaks the AI? I dunno. How tough was it? How much did Komachi/Eiki hammer you? I'm not a big PofV player. --- End quote --- Eiki is definitely the main challenge I have struggled with in most of my 1ccs with 9. I don't think I had to deal with Komachi in stage 8. I think it was typically Yuuka I ended up fighting. I usually expected to lose at least 1 life against the stage 6-8 bosses and typically planned for that. Eiki on the other hand was a problem. I've managed to make it to her with 4 extra lives before and still end up getting destroyed. The main thing I struggled with in 9 is it felt very inconsistent compared to all the other games I've played in the series to me, which is admittedly probably partially due to how it has a different feel compared to the others. I'd say I found it a bit easier then other games in the series I've played in the series in the sense that there's a good portion of the game in 9 where I can make mistakes and still recover from. It was incredibly rare for me to have to restart a 1cc attempt in stages 1-5, meaning 6-9 was really the only portion of the game I had to struggle with and those could certainly become a complete clusterfuck. I have heard that Medicine is one of the easier characters to try it with. The only other character I've seriously attempted it with in lunatic mode is Lyrica. I've managed to make it to Eiki with her a couple times and I definitely feel like I had an easier time with Medicine. I'm guessing the AI probably struggles a bit more against the slow poison then other characters specials.

CrestedPeak9: --- Quote from: Dreamleaf on April 25, 2019, 11:13:45 PM ---Eiki is definitely the main challenge I have struggled with in most of my 1ccs with 9. I don't think I had to deal with Komachi in stage 8. I think it was typically Yuuka I ended up fighting. I usually expected to lose at least 1 life against the stage 6-8 bosses and typically planned for that. Eiki on the other hand was a problem. I've managed to make it to her with 4 extra lives before and still end up getting destroyed. The main thing I struggled with in 9 is it felt very inconsistent compared to all the other games I've played in the series to me, which is admittedly probably partially due to how it has a different feel compared to the others. I'd say I found it a bit easier then other games in the series I've played in the series in the sense that there's a good portion of the game in 9 where I can make mistakes and still recover from. It was incredibly rare for me to have to restart a 1cc attempt in stages 1-5, meaning 6-9 was really the only portion of the game I had to struggle with and those could certainly become a complete clusterfuck. I have heard that Medicine is one of the easier characters to try it with. The only other character I've seriously attempted it with in lunatic mode is Lyrica. I've managed to make it to Eiki with her a couple times and I definitely feel like I had an easier time with Medicine. I'm guessing the AI probably struggles a bit more against the slow poison then other characters specials. --- End quote --- Allow me to chip in here with some information. Aya and Medicine are the two characters in PoFV that breaks the AI apart. This is mostly because for Medicine, the AI doesn't really care about the poison fields and can end up wandering into a big clump of them and be unable to dodge; Aya, on the other hand, has EX attacks (that you activate by killing those ghosts/spirits) with hitboxes that the AI misjudges, causing the AI to constantly be at risk of dying randomly. I'm not too clear on the exact details of this mechanism, but there is a hidden timer in-game where the AI will be practically unhittable without getting completely walled in. When the timer expires, the AI starts intentionally taking hits. The timer is very short in early stages, but increases significantly towards the later stages. If I remember correctly, on Lunatic, Eiki has no limit to her timer on the first round - which means you can only really hit her with an extreme bout of luck or with broken AI behavior. After you lose to a boss, the timer shortens for the next round, so most people can only beat Eiki after losing once or twice to her. Maybe even thrice.

Lunatic_Reimu: --- Quote from: Dreamleaf on April 25, 2019, 01:43:31 AM ---I find taking time to learn about the characters, setting and whatnot can actually help a bit too even in terms of gameplay. The more you learn about characters the more you understand their mentality and views, which in turn can help you understand the mentality behind the attacks in gameplay. This works both ways too as playing the game can also help you understand the characters and lore a little bit better. It's like fighting against Alice where you see how methodical and controlled her attacks are, and it's kind of what you'd expect from someone who enjoys a more tactical and challenging kind of battle. I really like that all aspects of the series is designed to work in unison with each other and it helps build upon some of the key underlying philosophies that appear to be present in all aspects of the series. It's hilarious having walked into this series blind and having tried to learn it just by playing. Some of the mistakes I made back then would seem utterly ridiculous to me now. I played for 2 weeks before I even realized there was a focus mode :derp: I remember feeling like it was impossible for me to even tap on a key without flying halfway across the screen and slamming my face into a bullet. I remember spending like an hour and a half on a spellcard that seemed like just a massive clusterfuck of random bullets that needed some ridiculous level of skill to dodge just to suddenly realize that the attack was really just a really funky looking stream which I then proceeded immediately to easily beat. Those joys of learning really does make the growth fun though. Touhou is the kind of game where sometimes you don't even know what you don't know. It's pretty god damn satisfying when you're playing around and you discover some simple elegant solution to a problem you were previously having. I knew going into this series that practice would be important but one thing I completely underestimated with this series was also how important my own perspective would be. How I approach attacks, how I learn, the goals I set and the reason I play and so on. The better I got at the game the more all those viewpoints changed. I originally walked into the series wanting to be able to say I was able to beat a touhou game in lunatic. I thought it would be the most stressful thing to achieve, and yet there are moments now when I'm playing in lunatic mode and I couldn't even care less whether I get the 1cc or not, I just want to throw myself into an ocean of bullets and the weirdest part is how blissful I feel while I dance in that ocean. There are moments playing this game in lunatic where I feel far more calm and centered then I ever do normally just in day to day life. I still do like to set goals but I view them more like milestones and as a tool that helps keep me focused rather than being the main reason why I play. As satisfying as accomplishing some really hard challenge is, ultimately it's secondary to the joy that comes from simply playing Touhou you know? This is why I can't see myself burning out with this series. I can honestly say I've truly come to love playing it and even if I were to reach every goal I currently have set I think I'd still want to keep playing. Hell, even if I was the best player in the world and had some of the most brag worthy accomplishments possible I'm pretty sure I'd still want to keep playing and trying to find new ways to push myself even further past my limits. There might be things pretty far out of my current reach atm (pacifist and perfect lunatic runs are certainly on that list) but I'm okay with that since that just means I have no shortage of more to learn! (Sorry that got more rambly than I intended  :)) --- End quote --- Interesting, I never thought of it that way. Makes sense for certain characters, like Cirno?s attacks in Touhou 6 (especially her final one) is just a random bullet spam for example, which fits when you consider she is just a young immature child. Your Alice example fits perfectly too with how strategic and methodical she is with her attacks. Haha yeah I understand that, I started off like you did as well, just blind to the series, and took it as a ?learn as you go? process. Makes it more fun that way as well cause you get to discover things your way :) Ouch, having just started out without knowing there is a focus mode must have been quite frustrating and caused more accidental deaths than you would hope for :/ Focus really is a blessing, I played Touhou 1 ? 3 which don?t have focus, and believe me, you?ll miss it once you get used to it and don?t have it! Hahaha true that about the spell card looking like a clusterfuck of bullets to just realize it?s a stream in the end, but it?s things like these that make it so enjoyable once you actually figure it out :) The learning process in Touhou really is fun, especially with something that?s been giving you so much trouble, but you just keep at it and eventually it?ll come to you :) Yes definitely, practice is very important, and so is persistence to never give up. I completely understand you about having fun being thrown into that ocean of bullets as you described it, just blissfully dancing between the bullets, very nice description you used there ;) I understand what you mean about not caring about hitting the 1cc or not, just actually wanting to have fun dodging bullets and learning new things as you?re playing around, the purpose in the end is actually to have fun! :D But keep your goals in sight too, they?re very important and could be considered motivation, and they?re what you work hard for throughout those multiple attempts of getting your ass kicked, as you already know the joy you felt when you hit your first Lunatic 1cc ;) Haha yeah same here about goals being milestones. I even have a checklist for my goals, and it?s sooooo satisfying checking another one off from that checklist after all that toil and effort :) Indeed, as I said above, the main goal of playing should be to have fun and enjoy the marvelous world of Touhou while you?re there :) It?s important finding a balance between fun and goals I guess. Nah, no reason to burn out of the series, there are so many things you could do in the series that you could keep squeezing enjoyment out of it for a lifetime (example, after beating the games normally you could go No Bomb or No Focus, if that?s done you could go Perfect, or Pacifist, which all present their own challenges and pushing you to discover and break your limits!). That?s the spirit, ?no shortage of more to learn?, keep that mindset, and good things will come your way with the series :) No worries about it being rambly haha. I know how easy it is to get lost talking about Touhou xD

Dreamleaf: --- Quote from: CrestedPeak9 on April 26, 2019, 12:54:37 PM ---Allow me to chip in here with some information. Aya and Medicine are the two characters in PoFV that breaks the AI apart. This is mostly because for Medicine, the AI doesn't really care about the poison fields and can end up wandering into a big clump of them and be unable to dodge; Aya, on the other hand, has EX attacks (that you activate by killing those ghosts/spirits) with hitboxes that the AI misjudges, causing the AI to constantly be at risk of dying randomly. I'm not too clear on the exact details of this mechanism, but there is a hidden timer in-game where the AI will be practically unhittable without getting completely walled in. When the timer expires, the AI starts intentionally taking hits. The timer is very short in early stages, but increases significantly towards the later stages. If I remember correctly, on Lunatic, Eiki has no limit to her timer on the first round - which means you can only really hit her with an extreme bout of luck or with broken AI behavior. After you lose to a boss, the timer shortens for the next round, so most people can only beat Eiki after losing once or twice to her. Maybe even thrice. --- End quote --- That makes sense as I've seen lunatic matches that felt much shorter then even what I'm use to in normal on the rare occassion. It would also help explain a certain degree of the inconsistency I've found with 9's difficulty. Having recently gone through the extra stage a couple times with Komachi and Eiki with the timer showing (these were the first extra stage completions I've gotten in the series too  :)) I now feel I understand how the timer mechanic works a bit better. I'm guessing that the regular matches work similarly to the extra stage rounds in terms of how the timer works, just spread throughout an entire stage rather then 1 life. Like the extra stage that timer will decrease every death and also the bullets get a bit slower too I believe. One other thing about the timer I feel that's worth noting is that while bosses will often die immediately after hitting that timer I have also seen them go quite a while past it as well. I've had many restarts because I was expecting a boss to die soon after hitting 0 and then had them stick around for another 10-30 seconds. I think you're right about Eiki too. I can't recall ever taking a life from her on my first attempt even when I've managed to make it past the 4 minute mark too which starts to get pretty ridiculous. On the extra stage you can beat her (if you're not playing as her of course) on your first attempt I'm assuming since it does still have a timer but it requires you to survive 2 full minutes on the first attempt compared to stage 8 which only requires around 50 seconds on your first attempt so I figure even if you can beat her in story mode it would probably require a ridiculous amount of time to do so compared to anything else. --- Quote from: Lunatic_Reimu on April 26, 2019, 02:20:15 PM ---Interesting, I never thought of it that way. Makes sense for certain characters, like Cirno?s attacks in Touhou 6 (especially her final one) is just a random bullet spam for example, which fits when you consider she is just a young immature child. Your Alice example fits perfectly too with how strategic and methodical she is with her attacks. Haha yeah I understand that, I started off like you did as well, just blind to the series, and took it as a ?learn as you go? process. Makes it more fun that way as well cause you get to discover things your way :) Ouch, having just started out without knowing there is a focus mode must have been quite frustrating and caused more accidental deaths than you would hope for :/ Focus really is a blessing, I played Touhou 1 ? 3 which don?t have focus, and believe me, you?ll miss it once you get used to it and don?t have it! Hahaha true that about the spell card looking like a clusterfuck of bullets to just realize it?s a stream in the end, but it?s things like these that make it so enjoyable once you actually figure it out :) The learning process in Touhou really is fun, especially with something that?s been giving you so much trouble, but you just keep at it and eventually it?ll come to you :) Yes definitely, practice is very important, and so is persistence to never give up. I completely understand you about having fun being thrown into that ocean of bullets as you described it, just blissfully dancing between the bullets, very nice description you used there ;) I understand what you mean about not caring about hitting the 1cc or not, just actually wanting to have fun dodging bullets and learning new things as you?re playing around, the purpose in the end is actually to have fun! :D But keep your goals in sight too, they?re very important and could be considered motivation, and they?re what you work hard for throughout those multiple attempts of getting your ass kicked, as you already know the joy you felt when you hit your first Lunatic 1cc ;) Haha yeah same here about goals being milestones. I even have a checklist for my goals, and it?s sooooo satisfying checking another one off from that checklist after all that toil and effort :) Indeed, as I said above, the main goal of playing should be to have fun and enjoy the marvelous world of Touhou while you?re there :) It?s important finding a balance between fun and goals I guess. Nah, no reason to burn out of the series, there are so many things you could do in the series that you could keep squeezing enjoyment out of it for a lifetime (example, after beating the games normally you could go No Bomb or No Focus, if that?s done you could go Perfect, or Pacifist, which all present their own challenges and pushing you to discover and break your limits!). That?s the spirit, ?no shortage of more to learn?, keep that mindset, and good things will come your way with the series :) No worries about it being rambly haha. I know how easy it is to get lost talking about Touhou xD --- End quote --- The one advantage to learning without focus is once you do finally have it you notice a sudden and immediate jump in what you're able to do which can really help a lot with the confidence. It's almost like going from Lunatic to Normal mode where everything just feels so much easier to manage, plus it makes going to games like 6 and lower without it less jarring so ultimately it wasn't too terrible, but I did feel awfully silly once I accidentally hit the shift key one day and realized I had been completely ignoring one of the games core mechanics XD I then proceeded to later do the same thing in Ten Desires when I lost to Miko on the final spellcard while going for my first normal 1cc in that game only to start again and realize I could go into the ghost realm without dying simply by hitting V which easily could have saved me a number of reattempts had I known earlier. I think you're absolutely right about finding that balance between goals and having fun. If you don't have goals you won't push your limits which can make things start to feel stale, but if you don't have fun you'll lack the motivation required in order to achieve those goals. I'm constantly looking for that sweet spot between the two, and that sweet spot constantly changes as I improve. It's like what you said about how the series only opens up more as you improve. Also reminds me a while back I saw a video of a guy apparently doing a "no moving" 1cc in DDC. It completely blew my mind to even think that was possible... Just goes to show you can always find new ways to push the limits and test yourself if you really want to and it's like you said they can all present their own unique challenges. That's one thing I love about this series in general, Touhou is the kind of series where there isn't really a "correct" way to go about it per se, you just kind of approach it however you want and what you take away from it is also up to you, mind you I think people will get way more out of the series if they approach it with an open mind and a willingness to push themselves. Now if you walk into this series wanting to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes, I think you could end up looking for the bottom for quite a while  ;)

Lunatic_Reimu: --- Quote from: Dreamleaf on April 26, 2019, 10:06:06 PM ---That makes sense as I've seen lunatic matches that felt much shorter then even what I'm use to in normal on the rare occassion. It would also help explain a certain degree of the inconsistency I've found with 9's difficulty. The one advantage to learning without focus is once you do finally have it you notice a sudden and immediate jump in what you're able to do which can really help a lot with the confidence. It's almost like going from Lunatic to Normal mode where everything just feels so much easier to manage, plus it makes going to games like 6 and lower without it less jarring so ultimately it wasn't too terrible, but I did feel awfully silly once I accidentally hit the shift key one day and realized I had been completely ignoring one of the games core mechanics XD I then proceeded to later do the same thing in Ten Desires when I lost to Miko on the final spellcard while going for my first normal 1cc in that game only to start again and realize I could go into the ghost realm without dying simply by hitting V which easily could have saved me a number of reattempts had I known earlier. I think you're absolutely right about finding that balance between goals and having fun. If you don't have goals you won't push your limits which can make things start to feel stale, but if you don't have fun you'll lack the motivation required in order to achieve those goals. I'm constantly looking for that sweet spot between the two, and that sweet spot constantly changes as I improve. It's like what you said about how the series only opens up more as you improve. Also reminds me a while back I saw a video of a guy apparently doing a "no moving" 1cc in DDC. It completely blew my mind to even think that was possible... Just goes to show you can always find new ways to push the limits and test yourself if you really want to and it's like you said they can all present their own unique challenges. That's one thing I love about this series in general, Touhou is the kind of series where there isn't really a "correct" way to go about it per se, you just kind of approach it however you want and what you take away from it is also up to you, mind you I think people will get way more out of the series if they approach it with an open mind and a willingness to push themselves. Now if you walk into this series wanting to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes, I think you could end up looking for the bottom for quite a while  ;) --- End quote --- Just a small note on the inconsistency you felt in the difficulty for Touhou 9, I haven't played Touhou 9, but I did play Touhou 3 which uses a very similar system, and yes, there are huge discrepancies in the difficulty depending on which characters you use. The AI definitely has a harder time dodging certain character's attacks over others'. I also agree with CrestedPeak9's statement about the timer and the final boss very rarely dieing on her first life, I also think she has an infinite timer on her first life. For her later lives, there is a certain 'invincibility period' so to speak till a part of the timer runs out before the final boss starts taking hits/using bombs, no matter what you throw at her she'll power through it, unless you REALLY manage to get her into a corner where it's practically impossible to dodge. Oh yes definitely, starting off playing with no focus will make it way easier once you discover a focus mode exists. Focus really is a blessing for the added control it gives. Focus was introduced in Touhou 4, which is what makes Touhou 3 so damn difficult. Haha no worries about not realizing there's a focus mode, I've read a thread before where someone else had the same issue, so you're not the first to make that mistake :P Shame to hear you had a similar experience with Ten Desires' Ghost Realm/Trance mode. Best advice I can give is to make sure to read the Touhou wiki page for each game before starting it. The Gameplay section shows all the available controls for the game, so this should prevent any further mistakes like this in the future :) Exactly, couldn't have worded it any better myself :) Keep at it till you find the sweet spot you're comfy with, but not too comfy that it becomes easy/not challenging. My sweet spot is No Bombs, and Perfect Stage Practice just to give you an idea or suggestion :) Hopefully in the future after lots of experience with the Touhou universe, I'll be able to hit a full Perfect Lunatic run (looks insane though from what I've seen on Youtube, hats off to those that manage such an incredible feat!!!), or better yet, Pacifist!! xD So beautiful taking out a boss without even attacking :) Only a dream for now I reckon though (although I never tried to be honest). Damn, that's insane, never heard of a 'no moving' 1cc. I'm assuming he just takes small steps when necessary to be able to dodge correct? Just making sure, we are talking about Lunatic yeah for the no moving 1cc? Indeed about 'no correct way to play the game,', everyone plays the game how they see fit and how they like to play. Some play for score, others for survival, others without focus, whatever floats that person's boat I guess :) Yes definitely good having an open mind and especially a willingness to push yourself, that's what makes you get better in the end :) Haha if you really want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes, start discovering the secondary Touhou fanbase (i.e. art, music arranges by various doujin circles, and most notably, the fan games). You'll be lost forever once you go down that hole, there's sooooo much to see! Believe me I've spent countless hundreds of hours viewing different Touhou art, sampling so many different arranges, and discovering new fan games (most notably the Touhoumon games in my opinion, check these out if you haven't, they're brilliant, especially if you were a Pokemon fan when you were younger)). It really is such a marvelous and huge universe with such a dedicated fan base, that you could literally go Touhou-exclusive and never look back :) (I know I did).

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