Author Topic: Shooter games  (Read 156918 times)

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #210 on: October 04, 2009, 04:42:40 PM »
Remind me how Dodonpachi is hailed as one of the greatest shmups of all time again? I like the stages with the exception of the latter half of stage 5 and stage 6 (waaaaay too long) but the bosses (I haven't fought Hibachi yet so I can't speak for him) are... boring. The stage 5 boss is my personal least favorite boss fight of all time- worse than Shou and her curvy lasers. The final boss' final pattern... no words for how much I hate that part. Overall, I give it a 6.5- it's playable but there are A LOT of things that I dislike about it.

You've been spoiled by Touhou, that's why.

moozooh

  • Your grandfather
    • Touhou world record tracker
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #211 on: October 04, 2009, 04:57:01 PM »
I hope it's "boring" in the sense of "I no-miss no-bomb it", because otherwise I just don't know what you mean.
<nintendonut888> Mountain of Faith, or "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb."

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #212 on: October 04, 2009, 05:19:34 PM »
Remind me how Dodonpachi is hailed as one of the greatest shmups of all time again?

It's got Nice Explosions, duh.

Oh and on a related note, I played Mars Matrix a few days ago.  It's pretty cool, but I waited until after playing it to look up the controls so I pretty much got raped.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 05:23:22 PM by Azinth »

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #213 on: October 04, 2009, 05:47:04 PM »
Mars Matrix exists to rape you. Such an insane game.

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
  • Leave a sign of your life, no matter how small...
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #214 on: October 04, 2009, 05:49:52 PM »
You've been spoiled by Touhou, that's why.

The fact that we've been "spoiled" by Touhou, a doujin game, should be saying something about Dodonpachi, a commercial game. :P

I share BoLaD's sentiments, except that I like it slightly more. I'd like it much more if there weren't such steep requirements for second looping.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #215 on: October 04, 2009, 05:51:33 PM »
The fact that we've been "spoiled" by Touhou, a doujin game, should be saying something about Dodonpachi, a commercial game. :P

I share BoLaD's sentiments, except that I like it slightly more. I'd like it much more if there weren't such steep requirements for second looping.

You seem to be forgetting that DoDonPachi is older than Touhou shmups as well.  Are you going to say that an NES game is bad when there's a prettier PS3 game similar to it?

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
  • Leave a sign of your life, no matter how small...
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #216 on: October 04, 2009, 05:58:43 PM »
IMO, age is a poor excuse for how fun a game is today. I judge all games by one standard: Is it fun to me now? That's why the only NES games I've played that I've really liked are Kirby's Adventure, Punch-out (until Mr. Dream where I just say nay), and the Mega Man games. Games like the original Legend of Zelda IMO haven't aged well in the slightest, and I'm not going to change my opinion just because "it was really innovative and fun when it first came out."

Not that Dodonpachi really falls into that category (that's Donpachi's territory :P). It's really just a difference in opinions. Remember how I said I'm a fan of Touhou, not a shmup fan?
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #217 on: October 04, 2009, 06:05:11 PM »
How hasn't LoZ aged well? I find it to be just as fun now as it was when I first played it 15-16 years ago.

Shmup fan or no, you have to give them credit where credit is due. If it wasn't for games like DoDonPachi, Touhou likely would still be like SoEW and tHRtP, where the bullet hell concept is rather nonexistent-- granted if it even lasts that long in popularity. As a matter of fact, ZUN uses lots of arcade shmup elements in his games.

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
  • Leave a sign of your life, no matter how small...
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #218 on: October 04, 2009, 06:14:55 PM »
When I first downloaded the original LoZ on the VC, I tried my best to lower my standards. After all, it's an old game, right? Cue me wandering around a dull landscape where three hits from anything will kill you, there's virtually no landmarks, no indication of where to go, and it took me 30 minutes just to find the first dungeon. Granted, this was probably my own incompetence more than anything, but the game shouldn't be letting this happen at all. The dungeons themselves aren't all that bad, but if you die, you're sent back to the start with three hearts and hell if the enemies are going to ever drop enough for you to refill your life meter. The only way to guarantee more health is to trapse out to that god-awful overworld and get lost again.

Or something like that lol. I entered gaming in the N64 era, before that I was raised on Doom, Descent, and Mechwarrior 2 (yeah I played Doom when I was 2 lol), so maybe my standards are too high?

EDIT: Oh yeah. I do give Dodonpachi credit for advancing the bullet hell genre, of course. I'm just saying that ZUN takes the genre and makes it much more exciting and fun.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 06:16:28 PM by nintendonut888 »
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #219 on: October 04, 2009, 06:23:56 PM »
It might just be the factor of nostalgia for me and NES games, then. I was raised on them, and adore them to this day. That, and I have pretty much all of the original Legend of Zelda memorized to the point that I could probably visualize the entire world map in my mind. But to be honest, older games didn't hold your hand until you were comfortable with playing, either. :P

To be really honest, I really don't like most modern games-- it seems that they tend to focus more on graphics and less on making the games fun. The shmup genre is one of the few that seems to get better and more fun with age, which is another reason why I enjoy them so much.

moozooh

  • Your grandfather
    • Touhou world record tracker
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #220 on: October 04, 2009, 06:51:08 PM »
N64 era made a terrific job of pussifying gamers, actually. I don't say that the majority of games released prior were always intuitive or fair (few of them were), but the N64 era-raised gamers just don't seem to possess the skills that allowed them to beat games like Battletoads or Contra basically on a whim (I know what this is because there was a time when I beat the SNES installments of these series on a pretty much daily basis) and not constantly think of them as of hardest ever, or speedrun Metroid without getting lost.

The definitions of fun and fair play have changed. I find DoDonPachi really fair because I don't compare it to Touhou, and don't consider Touhou the be-all end-all of shmups, either. When I'm asked about some unfair shmup, I usually name something like Super R-Type or Gradius III AC, where a single death more often than not spells doom for your entire playthrough due to painful recovery.
<nintendonut888> Mountain of Faith, or "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb."

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #221 on: October 04, 2009, 06:56:47 PM »
I agree. To be 100% honest, I like Mushihimesama more than I like Touhou, but Touhou has a lot more to offer in the fanbase department, and is more identifiable among fans. Not only that, there's a deep storyline to Touhou, something that simply does not exist in arcade shmups. That, and there's a ton of characters to get all starry-eyed at. In Mushihimesama, there's Reco, Palm, Larsa, and Aki. And no one really cares about the latter three :P


nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
  • Leave a sign of your life, no matter how small...
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #222 on: October 04, 2009, 06:59:28 PM »
What you call "pussifying", I call "opening up to more people." There's a certain charm to a game that forces you to play it over and over again to slowly get better until you beat it (Touhou lol), but most NES games embody this via trial and error gameplay with an unhealthy dose of memorization. I actually made it all the way until 6-2 of Ninja Gaiden, even putting up with the bullshit known as the stage 5 boss, a.k.a "lol luck based fight where if you lose I send you back to the beginning of the whole friggin' world", but there's a point where I just say "no" to these kinds of games, and hearing that losing once against the final bosses sends you back to 6-2 just made me give up. Games back then relied on being super-hard to extend their lifespan, and outside of shmups I think that's a pretty dumb way to do so. Remember that games are meant to be fun, not work. I'll take a Kirby game that is pretty easy but fun over a repetitive trial-and-error game like Battletoads anyday.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #223 on: October 04, 2009, 07:03:39 PM »
moozooh has a point. While I see nothing innately wrong with easy games for casual gamers, the N64 era was the one with the major drop in challenging games and a huge increase of production of easy games that hold your hand through them for the casual crowd.

I'll never say no to a fun Kirby game, merely because they're a ton of fun-- well, they used to be. What happened after the SNES era I'll never know. Games don't have to be hard to be fun. But in my opinion, making a game challenging definitely adds to the enjoyment value.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 07:05:30 PM by Matsuri »

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #224 on: October 04, 2009, 07:41:03 PM »
Off-topic: Every time I add a new MAME rom, it won't show up on the list for some reason. Any idea why? Never mind.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 07:53:28 PM by Matsuri »

lmagus

  • I HATE VoWG
    • My Youtube
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #225 on: October 04, 2009, 07:51:21 PM »
Pretty much everything after the 16-bit came too easy, with some psx and saturn game as exceptions.
Even the latter games from Mega Drive and SNES were already easy.

One of my favorite series is the Phantasy Star from SEGA. and PS1 and 2 are awesome while PS4 is ridiculously easy if compared to the previous 3.
Not to mention final fantasy... FF7 is a joke if compared to FF4 and 5

Games nowadays are so long because they're also easy. you never lose and start over, so they have to be bigger to be entertaining for a long time.

LoZ games are huge right now, and finishing them without dying or having to redo anything is very common...

I remember how i felt when i finished FFXII and Dragon Quest 8... They're much, much easier than their SNES versions...

Oh well
Current Goal: PCB Lunatic 1cc
Watch me on Youtube

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #226 on: October 04, 2009, 07:54:25 PM »
Final Fantasy stopped being good after the SNES era, too.  :V

lmagus

  • I HATE VoWG
    • My Youtube
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #227 on: October 04, 2009, 07:59:07 PM »
I disagree.

While i do think they're much easier and some of their fun is gone, I still like them, and I really enjoyed playing FFXII =P
Current Goal: PCB Lunatic 1cc
Watch me on Youtube

moozooh

  • Your grandfather
    • Touhou world record tracker
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #228 on: October 04, 2009, 08:00:11 PM »
What you call "pussifying", I call "opening up to more people."
More than what? People were playing games en masse since late 70s. Every housewife had the ability to play a round of Tetris (not particularly an easy game, mind you!) for decades, and a lot of them did so. It's not like game console sales skyrocketed since the N64 era, either (N64 itself was one of Nintendo's worst-selling consoles, actually).

The reason I call that pussifying is different, and consists of the fact that gamers raised on N64-era games can't even deal with the stuff "unfair" games throw at them without elaborately expressing their frustration, and instead opt to avoid it altogether. As you just said yourself, in fact. And don't tell me you've never seen YouTube commenters who can't even fathom the fact that some games are meant to kill you in less than three hits! Another wonderful side-effect is that the modern console games are all very long and, instead of raising replayability by making the game process more fun, the major developers try to artificially increase it via unlockables. Which pretty much never works if a game isn't entertaining enough to begin with.

There's a certain charm to a game that forces you to play it over and over again to slowly get better until you beat it (Touhou lol), but most NES games embody this via trial and error gameplay with an unhealthy dose of memorization.
Because we know Touhou games don't have a lot of things that inevitably kill you until you find and memorize a way through, right? Even more so in the more recent games, actually. And in every Extra stage, period. But Touhou games do have an advantage of sharing replays, so you can write off the whole "finding the routes" part so it seems way more fair.

To touch another aspect of this, Perfect Cherry Blossom scoreplay is an extravaganza of learning where to bomb or suicide for cherry, what area of the screen to go to to graze effectively, what trajectory to graze in, and so on. EoSD is pretty similar in that regard. SA and MoF both share this awesome frustrating quality of slicing up to 30% of your potential score per single death. Now that's really fair. UFO requires you to learn a precise route to summon the UFOs exactly where you need them. The Touhou games have these elaborate scoring systems for a reason, this reason being scoreplay. But since you, as a true self-proclaimed Touhou fan, don't play the games for score, you happily disregard all this and continue to hail the games as the definition of fun. I know it's only your opinion, but you aren't being fair here, either, or at least don't seem to put the whole situation into perspective.

Also, allow me to repeat myself:
The definitions of fun and fair play have changed.
Pretty much everything deemed unfun and unfair now wasn't back in the day. People could derive fun out of it then. If you can't enjoy something, it is a loss, and can't be treated as anything other than that.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 08:04:49 PM by moozooh »
<nintendonut888> Mountain of Faith, or "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb."

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #229 on: October 04, 2009, 08:00:37 PM »
I really couldn't stand FFXII, honestly ^^;

FFIV and FFVI are where the greatness is at. <3

EDIT: I'm really going to agree with the comment moozooh made about scoring. While there are some games I really don't like playing for score, like EoSD or DoDonPachi, with some games, playing for score is... it's like playing home run derby playing a whole new game. Which is another beauty of arcade games in general. You can play them casually, and you can play them for score, and since the methods used for scoring well are often much more difficult than playing casually, it's like they're two different games at one time. Not to mention, getting a high score is more rewarding than any pop-up achievement an Xbox 360 game, if you ask me. :P
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 08:10:28 PM by Matsuri »

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #230 on: October 04, 2009, 10:30:25 PM »
Well guys, it seems I was a little too rough on Dodonpachi when I wrote my previous comment... I was a little angry at the time. Spending 3 hours trying to get past the stage 3 boss (a boss that I beat without dying/bombing on my first time playing) without dying and failing miserably will do that to you.

I seem to be getting better at scoring in this game. It seems if you perfect the first 2 stages, the game will start giving you a crapton of points- really useful. It's nice to go from 5mil to 12.3mil in 1 single stage. Now if only I would stop clipping on stage 4 with 3 bombs in stock, I would have gotten that 20mil life and had a chance at a 1cc.

Btw, reading these comments really makes me feel out of place. It seems everyone on this forum owns a video game console, while I only own the DS.

lmagus

  • I HATE VoWG
    • My Youtube
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #231 on: October 04, 2009, 11:29:01 PM »
I really couldn't stand FFXII, honestly ^^;

FFIV and FFVI are where the greatness is at. <3

WHAT :V

you forgot FF5, the best of them all!
Current Goal: PCB Lunatic 1cc
Watch me on Youtube

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #232 on: October 04, 2009, 11:33:08 PM »
Just a step under on my list. ;)

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #233 on: October 04, 2009, 11:40:22 PM »
BoLaD: suppose you have 2 bombs or 3 bombs out of a current maximum capacity of 3 (this capacity increases by one bomb as you lose your lives, up to 6 bombs). Collecting a bomb item and then being at full capacity makes you enter the Max Bombs bonus, you'll see the word Maximum scroll horizontally at your bomb indicator, in a red background, and you'll seemingly gain points based on your current max chain hits x your current multiplier (which increases if you collect additional bombs while in this bonus mode; if you have 2 bombs out of a maximum of 3 and collect a bomb item, this multiplier will start at x1; if you have 3 out of a maximum of 3 but isn't in the Max Bombs bonus -- such as when you start the game, or when you respawn after dying --, collecting a bomb item will make your multiplier start at x2) per frame (dunno if the formula is exactly this one, haven't checked, just assuming :D)

Since the first bomb you collect in the game appears in the stage 2 (during the "popcorn" section of the stage, before the boss), you may have had this impression :D (note that this Max Bombs bonus don't award any points during boss battles, but if you manage to no-miss and no-bomb the boss, the Max Bombs bonus will be resumed in the following stage)
For me, having often said that I'm quite a greedy person (at least when it comes to playing games), maintaining the Max Bombs bonus is satisfying and attention-demanding, as much as dying during it is frustrating :D
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #234 on: October 05, 2009, 12:00:50 AM »
BoLaD: suppose you have 2 bombs or 3 bombs out of a current maximum capacity of 3 (this capacity increases by one bomb as you lose your lives, up to 6 bombs). Collecting a bomb item and then being at full capacity makes you enter the Max Bombs bonus, you'll see the word Maximum scroll horizontally at your bomb indicator, in a red background, and you'll seemingly gain points based on your current max chain hits x your current multiplier (which increases if you collect additional bombs while in this bonus mode; if you have 2 bombs out of a maximum of 3 and collect a bomb item, this multiplier will start at x1; if you have 3 out of a maximum of 3 but isn't in the Max Bombs bonus -- such as when you start the game, or when you respawn after dying --, collecting a bomb item will make your multiplier start at x2) per frame (dunno if the formula is exactly this one, haven't checked, just assuming :D)

Since the first bomb you collect in the game appears in the stage 2 (during the "popcorn" section of the stage, before the boss), you may have had this impression :D (note that this Max Bombs bonus don't award any points during boss battles, but if you manage to no-miss and no-bomb the boss, the Max Bombs bonus will be resumed in the following stage)
For me, having often said that I'm quite a greedy person (at least when it comes to playing games), maintaining the Max Bombs bonus is satisfying and attention-demanding, as much as dying during it is frustrating :D

So that's what it's for. I never get the extra bomb before the final part of the stage before the boss, where I can manage to get a 150-160 chain. I can probably get that 20 mil life now.

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
  • Leave a sign of your life, no matter how small...
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #235 on: October 05, 2009, 12:07:01 AM »
I seem to always die in the exact same place for the first time in stage 3 (right when you get to the big ship), and almost always die IMMEDIATELY after that. D: 's really annoying. Also stage 5 is why we can't have nice things.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #236 on: October 05, 2009, 01:19:18 AM »
I seem to always die in the exact same place for the first time in stage 3 (right when you get to the big ship), and almost always die IMMEDIATELY after that. D: 's really annoying. Also stage 6 is why we can't have nice things.
Fixed.

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #237 on: October 05, 2009, 01:34:43 AM »
1. Goes to have 1 final go at Dodonpachi.
2. Gets to the 3rd stage boss with 3 bombs and 4 little ship icons at the top left corner.
3. Chipdeath.
4. *Stare at screen and wonder what kill you.
5. Put the game down for the night to avoid getting angrier.

Yea.... I suck.

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #238 on: October 05, 2009, 01:57:02 AM »
Joining in the DDP blogging:

I've been trying to learn how to get the stage-long chain in st. 2 (might as well get that second-loop requirement out of the way now...), and the best I've managed to do is get to the big white building right before the tank midboss.  I'm still crap at chaining, but I think it's the first time I broke 200 outside of stage 5 though, so I guess it's progress...  From all the scoring tricks I've learned I've managed to get to 28mil, which... still sucks pretty bad.  It seems like if you bomb or die once in the course of the game your score is completely fucked, so once I do one of those two things it's basically survival/bombspam play from there on.

Yesterday I actually got like a 3rd of the way through the stage 6 boss' lifebar on one credit before losing.  Of course since that one time I haven't managed to get past stage 5.  :P

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #239 on: October 05, 2009, 02:36:31 AM »
Gaaaah. Mushihimesama Maniac Stage 4 advice, please please please. I went in there with 3 extra lives, and didn't even make it past the first snake-dragon-fish thing. I did, however, break 50 mil. An accomplishment!~  ;)