Author Topic: Characters, music, personalities.  (Read 331682 times)

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #210 on: October 26, 2009, 07:46:42 AM »
Flandre, as far as I'm aware, is one of the most memorable characters out of the ones we're presented. The reason people then saw Nue as Flandre is the (for most people) unmissable UNO-esque motif right at the beginning of the track and certain vaguely Flandre-like aspects of Nue's appearance, so associations were inevitably made. It's very psychological. Also exacerbated by the fact that UNO seems to be the most popular Touhou track (McRoll probably has something to do with it), so it becomes very quickly recognizable - this wouldn't be possible, for example, with Bloom Nobly, Cherry Blossom and giving Nue a butterfly motif.

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #211 on: October 26, 2009, 03:09:48 PM »
Murasa Minamitsu ? Captain Murasa

Everything about this track points at Murasa being something more than just her human form. From the bold title that proclaims that the track is the character to the singular theme that yet shows so much variety ? the piece portrays Murasa as something elemental, something deeply connected to her surroundings on the deepest, most intimate level. More than anything else, Murasa Minamitsu is a living embodiment of the stormy sea ? a natural force that has claimed many ships and lives, yet completely without malice or aggression. It is simply something that is, impartial and unbiased, treating all equally. To me, this piece shows a shipwreck in progress, the waves beating away at the craft?s hulls until there is only the sea remaining, as if nothing had ever crossed it.

The first 30 or so seconds present the central theme in Captain Murasa ? those characteristic broken chords that keep going up and down, presenting an excellent image of something rocking up and down on violent waves, thunder and rain filling the rest of the scene with rock guitar and piano respectively. The tempo is quick, as usual, presenting an unforgiving environment ? a storm, clearly. There is a distinct lack of meaningful tonality in the chords ? it?s not immediately possible to tell if they?re major or minor, presenting a striking impartiality, showing the listener that the storm is neither rejoicing, mourning, or feeling anything, really, about this event. As I said above, this is something that simply happens. Tying that to Murasa herself, she is impartial and elemental. Saying that she lives her job is an oversimplification ? she is her job, and thus she shares many qualities with a sea at storm ? grand, powerful and potentially overwhelming, yet also rewarding to those who show great effort and punishing those who make mistakes or do not take their job seriously.

The next 25 or so seconds are an interlude, which crops up again every once in a while, and is the only time that we don?t hear those rolling-wave broken chords. This section pulls back, zooms out, as it were, from the shipwreck in progress, to give the listener a view into the distance, rain lashing down around them. This section serves to remind the real lack of importance of the shipwreck happening far down below compared to the vast expanse all around. Moreover, from this distance, we cease to see the crashing waves, and the sea becomes a grey rippling blur, making it impossible to make out its features. Thus like this section, Murasa is featureless and distant when one does not directly interact with her. She does not care for things that do not concern her directly, or do not enter her jurisdiction. Of course, in exchange, she is stalwartly and unflinchingly attentive to things that do.

From then on, the piece is full of variation on a really quite simple theme. The rolling-waves theme comes back at least twice more with different emotions attached to it each time. This is really the final aspect that ties Murasa to the sea and gives her these unique characteristics ? seemingly a featureless expanse, yet actually so full of variety if one really takes the time to take it all in, really observe it for a long, dedicated amount of time. Murasa is somewhat reclusive, really not someone to express everything she feels to the first stranger. She opens up slowly, and does not make friends easily.

As a final thought, I feel that there are a few similarities between Murasa and Letty. Both seem to be elemental embodiments, although only the latter is canonically, and both are presented in a similar manner ? harsh, yet unbiased, with great enthusiasm for what they do, and little interest in anything else.

Nub Slayer

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #212 on: October 26, 2009, 11:30:32 PM »

Kogasa Tatara - Beware the Umbrella Left There Forever

...gothic as hell ...

I may know little about music but Kogasa's theme, gothic? I'm not seeing it (or hearing it :V)
Could you elaborate on this?

Since I know nothing about music theory, all the comparisons between characters and their themes just fly over my head, and since you seem (I'm probably dead wrong on this) to use only the music as basis for interpretation I can't even agree or disagree.

Having said that, your analysis are very well done and thorough for being made by listening to music. I can't wait for your analysis on Emotional Skyscraper - Cosmic Mind. The first time I heard that I was 'OMG this is IMO the best theme ever' and that made Byakuren my favorite character. That music has something no other theme has, or maybe they have, I just can't hear it.

(All this can be reduced to: I suck at music and can only say 'this sounds very good' and 'this does not')


Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #213 on: October 27, 2009, 03:58:52 AM »
You're thinking of 'gothic' as meaning 'dark and emo'. There's actually more to the term than that although I can't say I know much more myself.

About Murasa, you might want to note that her mythological inspiration doesn't smash boats with fifty foot tidal waves. The kind of ghost she's based on simply sits and scoops water into a ship with a dinky little ladle (which is that wooden thing Murasa carries) until it goes under, and people can't stop the creature because it's a spirit.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 04:01:18 AM by Recon 5 »

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #214 on: October 27, 2009, 06:40:08 AM »
You're thinking of 'gothic' as meaning 'dark and emo'. There's actually more to the term than that although I can't say I know much more myself.

Yep - I'm using gothic more as a term for a specific period in architecture - some very tall and pointy European cathedrals are built in this style. Those chord progressions in Beware the Umbrella really remind me of certain passages in church music of that period, hence me calling them gothic. Don't tell anyone, but I'm actually using the term somewhat incorrectly.  ;)

Quote
About Murasa, you might want to note that her mythological inspiration doesn't smash boats with fifty foot tidal waves. The kind of ghost she's based on simply sits and scoops water into a ship with a dinky little ladle (which is that wooden thing Murasa carries) until it goes under, and people can't stop the creature because it's a spirit.

Perhaps, but the ZUN-written Murasa's profile (as translated by the Touhou wiki) has such colourful keywords as "capsizing" and "shipwreck". A dinky little ladle pouring in water won't cause a ship to capsize. And anyway, the piece is more of what Murasa is like than what she does. Now, I've kept going on about "elemental" this and "she is her job" that, but, ultimately, the piece is used as a character description of Murasa herself. Any metaphors that I've presented beyond that are simply colourful illustrations.

Quote from: Nub Slayer
you seem (I'm probably dead wrong on this) to use only the music as basis for interpretation

That's the idea, yeah. Although I'm trying since Perfect Cherry Blossom to not so much compare to established characteristics as to actually get something new from each character theme.

Even if you don't know much about music, and this applies to all the other readers of this thread as well, I'm really hoping that my comparisons and analyses will make sense if one listens along to the track with them. Also, do try to explain why you think something "sounds good" or not - you don't have to use musical terms if you're unfamiliar with them, use terms you're familiar with, use as many metaphors and examples as you want. I'm still interested in what everyone else thinks of characters through their themes.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #215 on: October 27, 2009, 11:32:49 AM »
The little factoid about the ship sinking ghost was meant as an interesting note, not a critique of your analysis. Giant anchors aren't a part of the original myth, after all.

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #216 on: October 27, 2009, 11:54:54 AM »
The little factoid about the ship sinking ghost was meant as an interesting note, not a critique of your analysis. Giant anchors aren't a part of the original myth, after all.

Ah, okay. You had a valid point though - I might have portrayed Murasa as slightly more aggressive than she probably is. Speaking of that ladle though, and I'm off-topic here, I'd think that particular myth came into being due to poor shipbuilding and the inevitable little leaks that would spring up all over the place - you plug one up, and another soon appears. Attaching an anthropomorphic manifestation to that phenomenon made it easier for sailors to curse it.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #217 on: October 27, 2009, 12:10:49 PM »
Perhaps. That's the general practice in Shinto. If something strange or nasty keeps happening and you can't figure out the cause, create an obake to take the blame.

When people become more able to figure out the cause, though, there's no need for the supernatural being any more and so it 'dies'. Good thing there's a Gensokyo around  ;D

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #218 on: October 27, 2009, 04:38:02 PM »
Sorry everyone, no update today. Shou's turning out to be deceptively hard to put into words. I think I have a few good ideas though.

So this message isn't a complete waste of your time, here's a topic: UFO stage themes, especially stage 4 onwards, get exceedingly weird, yet their respective boss themes are quite classic ZUN fare. I can think of a few reasons why, but I'd like to see what everyone else thinks.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #219 on: October 27, 2009, 05:08:30 PM »
ZUN actually had an explanation for this one. He wanted to make stage themes that sound like stage themes and not alternate character themes.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #220 on: October 27, 2009, 07:17:52 PM »
ZUN actually had an explanation for this one. He wanted to make stage themes that sound like stage themes and not alternate character themes.

Aww, the man doesn't have enough confidence in himself. I'm having trouble remembering a stage theme that has an "alternate character theme" vibe. Maybe Doll Maker of Bucuresti.

Seian Verian

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #221 on: October 27, 2009, 07:23:04 PM »
Aww, the man doesn't have enough confidence in himself. I'm having trouble remembering a stage theme that has an "alternate character theme" vibe. Maybe Doll Maker of Bucuresti.

Personally, I always thought that Maid and the Pocket Watch of Blood felt like an alternate character theme for Sakuya.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #222 on: October 28, 2009, 02:02:29 AM »
There are a lot of stage themes that fans take as character themes. Kagome-Kagome is often offered as Tewi's character theme over Lord Usa's Elemental Flag. Extend Ash is seen as reflective of Mokou's character rather than a lead-up to the battle with her. Voyage 1969 is sometimes considered Eirin's other theme, etc.

Then there's the infamous 'Demystify Feast is Remilia's theme'. A bit unrelated since it's not a ZUN piece but it's the same issue.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 02:04:33 AM by Recon 5 »

Zengar Zombolt

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #223 on: October 28, 2009, 03:21:30 AM »
A bit unrelated since it's not a ZUN piece but it's the same issue.
Actually it is. ZUN did Demistify Feast, Night Falls and Onigashima in the Fairyland for IaMP. I think.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #224 on: October 28, 2009, 05:03:31 AM »
Eh? Oops. I should have checked the wiki before posting. Thanks for the correction.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #225 on: October 28, 2009, 10:24:39 AM »
I thought that the reason why ZUN made really approachable character themes is the same reason Utsuho doesn't have a proper third leg - he wants his characters to be generally pretty and sympathetic, and a weird theme just knocks that askew. Now, sure, a niche group will love that character all the more, but most would be pushed away.

Also, onwards!

Shou Toramaru ? The Tiger-Patterned Vaisravana

I?ve said multiple times that a track that keeps repeating a certain motif to the exclusion of everything else signifies that something is not entirely right, psychologically, with the theme?s associated character. After all, a dogged perseverance towards one goal and one goal only, or the constant repetition of a mantra are not entirely healthy traits in humans. This has held true so far, and I?ve been able to, at least to me, explain these psychological issues to a satisfactory degree whilst having these characters remain human. With Shou, I believe, the case is somewhat different. Where such qualities may seem unhealthy in humans, they are certainly observable in animals, and what Vaisravana does a great job to me is portray Shou as something primal and animalistic (which I personally think is very cool, by the way). Despite her human form, Shou is, first and foremost, a tiger youkai, bringing with her a simple view on life and a straightforward, direct attitude to friends and enemies.

The central motif of the piece, or, rather, the most recognizable and commonly-repeated part of the melody, is the unmissable 4-bar set of chords, some of them diminished (which is followed by another motif, but I?ll get onto that later). Moreover, each part of the motif involves the chord progression going up, creating a sense of anticipation and of some sort of buildup. This motif then works well at creating a sense of menace, which is then given a unique flavour by the rock guitar that always accompanies it ? the instrument brings a clear growl that just drips with animalistic imagery that changes a very simple set of chords into something with character. The motif just past these chords seems almost like an afterthought, despite the powerful chords that continue from the previous one, simply because the melodic line moves generally downwards, losing all the tension that had accumulated previously. Moreover, the diminished chords are gone in favour of simple major chords, comfortable-sounding harmonies that put the listener at ease. The combination of increased tension and subsequent relaxation, repeated over and over, with different instruments and timbres, gives me the image of a pacing hunter, guarding something, growling at shadows, ready to strike something that never actually appears.

After a few iterations the track moves into a transition segment that only serves to explain the power in simplicity ? the segment is no more than four chords, in a classic cadence. Each one is emphasized by every instrument, so the entire segment presents a powerful declaration of intent, yet with no musical trickery and only the most direct approach.

The second part presents a proper melodic line, short though it may be. The melody takes full advantage of the trumpet here, presenting long, confident notes, as opposed to the usual fast-paced passages that we usually get. Thus we get a powerful dignity from this passage, a sense of pride that goes beyond Shou?s animalistic nature, one that can be recognized no matter who or what you are.

Now, I?ve looked at the profile ZUN wrote for Shou, and I?m afraid I?ll start repeating both him and myself when I say that Shou is not a complicated person, much in the same way that a tiger clearly shows what it?s feeling at a given moment. She doesn?t project what she feels onto others like, say, Aya, she simply, well, is easy to read. Even more than that, she can also be described as predictable, in the best way, of course ? you slight her and she will retaliate, you respect her, and she will extend a fiercely devoted friendship; she is not one to develop complicated relationship politics. This, of course, makes her a great devotee to an ideal, or a guardian, both of which she is.

RainfallYoshi

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #226 on: October 28, 2009, 12:04:49 PM »
Excellent analysis as usual Fightest. I enjoy this image of Shou. She's a serious guardian and while her conversations in UFO make her sound a bit sophisticated, her duty and behaviors are still the same.

As for stage themes being alternate character themes, Heartfelt Fancy immediately jumps out at me for Satori.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #227 on: October 28, 2009, 06:41:02 PM »
I note that you haven't said anything about Shou's role as an avatar or representation of Vaisravana. Perhaps being a mere copy set up by Byakuren means she doesn't have the divine power or grand instrumentation of a real deity but I'd like to see your take on how that aspect of her character connects with the theme.

I personally feel that the intro sounds vaguely devotional or religious, sort of like the instrumentation one might hear at a Tibetan monastery, not that it takes anything away from her tiger-like nature as you've so eloquently described. The full effect can probably only be obtained if you see her sprout her infamous curved lasers as the theme plays. During the battle she looks more like a traditional deity than Kanako ever did.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 06:42:36 PM by Recon 5 »

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #228 on: October 28, 2009, 10:33:49 PM »
I note that you haven't said anything about Shou's role as an avatar or representation of Vaisravana.

Is she? I thought she was just a follower of the religious creed, and the Vaisravana's power came from the pagoda. If she is, then that trumpet segment, the one that plays those slow, long notes, is the one to bring up here, as well as those occasional 'vocal' segments - both can be evidence of divine investment or glory.

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #229 on: October 29, 2009, 03:59:42 PM »
Once again, no update today, and my apologies. In preparation for one of the upcoming themes, then, comes the following topic: many feel that Emotional Skyscraper ~ Cosmic Mind is ZUN's greatest work. If you're one of these people, why do you feel so? Please explain in whatever terms you are most comfortable with. If you're having trouble getting past "it just sounds good" - it sounds good because it instills certain emotions in you. Which?

This will be on the test.  :V

RainfallYoshi

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #230 on: October 29, 2009, 04:17:30 PM »
Emotional Skyscraper is just what the name says, emotional. It is written so well that you can feel Byakuren's hopes and desires, you can hear her desperation. The majority of the notes have are held for a long time and are spaced in such a way to give a feeling of grand majesty, a feeling of someone with with very high ideals. It's almost to the point that it sounds like something holy.

The fact that a song can capture such a giant spectrum of a character's emotions and ideals shows how excellently written the song is. This is why I think that Emotional Skyscraper is ZUN's greatest work thus far.

Helepolis

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #231 on: October 29, 2009, 04:29:41 PM »
Emotional Skyscraper is not ZUN's best work. I am not going to jump the fan bandwagon for that. The piece is good, meaning it fits the and also fits the theme of a final boss in the game. Aside from that it is NOWHERE near ZUN's best work (IMO).

And Emotional skyscraper being 'emotional'. You might want to define 'emotions' here as emotions can take many shapes, and is not always dramatic or melodrama emotions.

The song speaks of freedom. For me the beginning of the song speaks: " Ah , freedom at last after so many years "  and exactly at that moment the piano kicks in to start the first melody part.

Remember that song names not always have relation directly to the character or their desires. You might want to go research Youmu's song for example. Me and Herasy had a nice discussion about it on IRC when we discovered Youmu's theme is not about Youmu at all. (goes pages back to read what Fightest had written. Curious now )

Edit: Fightest was close with Youmu's theme. But her theme does not present her loyality or defensive stance against intruders. The music does, the title does not. And this is why I love ZUN's work.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 04:32:40 PM by Helepolis »

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #232 on: October 29, 2009, 07:24:00 PM »
And Emotional skyscraper being 'emotional'. You might want to define 'emotions' here as emotions can take many shapes, and is not always dramatic or melodrama emotions.

I used 'emotions' as a broad term intentionally - a piece that does not elicit any emotion at all for a specific person has no meaning to that person, and thus is unlikely to 'sound good'. I'll narrow down my original statement, however, to 'positive emotions'.

Quote
Remember that song names not always have relation directly to the character or their desires. You might want to go research Youmu's song for example. Me and Herasy had a nice discussion about it on IRC when we discovered Youmu's theme is not about Youmu at all.

Normally, I'd completely agree with you. However, UFO specifically has boss theme titles that very clearly are related to their character - Beware the Umbrella, Traditional Old Man and Stylish Girl are already good examples before I bring in Captain Murasa. Hence, I believe that relating the title of Emotional Skyscraper is, in this case, a valid argument.

Also, could you elucidate that bit on Youmu? I'm curious as to what you discovered.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #233 on: October 30, 2009, 02:04:35 AM »
Emotional Skyscraper is not ZUN's best work. I am not going to jump the fan bandwagon for that.

I don't think there was ever such a bandwagon. UFO's themes on a whole have been quite divisive.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #234 on: October 31, 2009, 01:00:02 PM »
I?ve decided to break continuity, as I?ve mentioned earlier. Emotional Skyscraper is the longest of the final boss tracks, and thus is filled with proportionally more stuff. Therefore, I?ll leave it for last.

Nue Houjuu ? Heian Alien

It is canonical that Nue is a shapeshifter, and seems to use this to her advantage when facing friends and enemies alike (though, at the time of UFO, she probably doesn?t have any friends as such). Thus, the form we see of her is not her true form, and it would be best to approach her theme in the same way ? what we hear immediately is not the true Nue, but a form she assumes to confuse the viewer/listener. This much we know already though, as we have discussed upthread ? Heian Alien is a complex mishmash of Dark Side of Fate, Hartmann?s Youkai Girl, Faith is For The Transient People and U.N. Owen Was Her. Of course, these themes are not copied wholesale, but altered, modified, bastardized to fulfill a certain objective, or due to inability to copy perfectly, or the unwillingness to do so (it?s too early to tell which at the moment) ? and through this I feel we can start to glimpse the true Nue.

Before I go on any further, I?ll bring up Gensokyo?s other shapeshifter: Ran. As presented by my analysis, Ran is a psychological shapeshifter, never showing her true nature to others, as opposed to a manufactured behaviour. Ran had a specific tell about her, a signal of some sort to indicate that what we?re seeing is not the real Ran. Nue also has such a tell, but it?s even more important in her case ? the bell-chimes that are heard throughout the entire piece, supporting a melody here, an accompaniment there, adding some atmosphere everywhere else. The bell-chimes are the unique aspect of the piece, the one instrument and sound that stands apart as a personal addition to copied and altered material. This says something about Nue and her nature as a shapeshifter, something I?d like to present a few thoughts on below:

To reiterate myself, Nue?s very nature is of the shapeshifter. Not to bring Jungian archetypes into the picture, Nue immediately has a reduced sense of self ? after all, ?I think, therefore I am? only goes so far, having a unique, inviolable body which one can call ?me? is important as well. Nue does not have the latter, and can only rely on her spiritual self to provide herself with a sense of identity. She clearly realizes the potential existential pitfalls present if she neglects to assert her ?I? whilst going around taking others? forms, so she does so by adding extremely obvious personal features onto her forms, as shown by those bell-chimes. The sound they create is very characteristically metallic, very prominently high-pitched with a long, clean echo, which gives me a feel of some cosmic presence, one that feels at home in a vast emptiness, knowing and known to none. On a more personal scale, that makes Nue very distant, almost transcendentally so ? she is the kind of person to space out in the middle of a crowd, paying no heed to the world around her. She certainly would have a way of thinking that many would consider odd, and might even seem slightly autistic to those unfamiliar with her physical nature.

Having said that, the nature of the themes she copies also shed light on Nue?s character. Specifically, the two main parts are UNO ver. 2 and Faith ver. 2 (note: I?m calling the latter that for ease of reference, its similarity to Faith is arguable, but I?m sure it?s there). The Dark Side of Fate and Hartmann?s references are flavourful, but have less relevance due to their brevity.

I don?t need to mention the huge contrast between UNOv2 and Faithv2, one being harsh and oppressive, the other melodic and wistful. Clearly these are representations of two different emotional states, which, considering my statements on Nue?s nature as a shapeshifter and the reduced significance of her physically-established ?I?, as well as her canonical power, brings me onto the following thought: Nue?s very body expresses her emotional state at any given moment, and actively changes when her mood changes. Of course, Nue?s ability is to warp perception of another person to see what they want to see means it?s not Nue doing the real-time shapeshifting, but rather the mind of the observer perceiving Nue changing form.

I would like to emphasise that last sentence. Nue?s forms are all somehow related to things the viewer/listener (and the characters that observe her) have seen/heard before. Now, Nue isn?t a mind-reader, which basically means that all these forms are created by the observer?s subconscious whilst under the influence of Nue?s power. Nue isn?t a shapeshifter in the conventional sense, but, rather, a metaphysical one. Considering her emotional state then, it makes sense that her entire body would change to reflect a change in mood ? one?s perception of a furious person is completely different from the perception of that same person when he is happy, or when he is confused. This might slightly contradict what I?ve said earlier about the bell-chimes, but I feel it still applies ? no matter what she might look like, her own unique personality shines through.

Nue?s moods during UNOv2 and Faithv2 are then quite clear ? during the former she is inexplicably violent and selfish, no doubt her response to feeling threatened by the protagonists. Considering her separation from society up to that point and her own mental state, it is natural for her to lash out at people who make her uncomfortable. On the other hand, Faithv2 reminds us of Faith?s confident melody with a great deal of personal pride, and a desire for personal freedom, aspects that come up when the initial hostility of UNOv2 has died down ? Nue is fiercely independent, most likely not wanting her ?self? being defined by someone else. The, well, awkward transition into this segment reinforces the notion of her being socially different ? she is unused to actually dealing with others, so her emotional state and transitions might be off-putting to others, especially when this comes with a bizarrely-evershifting body.

This considered, neither the viewer nor the protagonists have ever seen the ?true? Nue. The only Nue that we know is an ephemeral personality, albeit a strong and willful one, without a concrete shape we can attach it to.

I really learned something about Nue in this analysis. Those of you reading carefully will see a stream-of-consciousness kind of writing, as the ideas I had just kept popping into my head. I personally really like the idea of Nue being a metaphysical shapeshifter, rather than a ?regular? one.

Solais

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #235 on: October 31, 2009, 01:59:18 PM »
Uh, yeah, but Nue threatens the heroines because they've seen her real form, aka the Nue we saw, so...
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 04:10:14 PM by Solais »

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #236 on: October 31, 2009, 03:15:38 PM »
She does have a 'base' form, so to speak. It's the form she takes when she isn't using her ability and maybe the one she reverts to if she gets knocked out. It's probably her most vulnerable form since her opponents will know where to aim, so she wouldn't really appreciate the heroines seeing it.

It's when she uses her ability that she becomes a projection of her opponents' thoughts. They can't see her true form and they don't know what they're fighting but they may have suspicions or fears which she can then embody.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #237 on: October 31, 2009, 03:37:25 PM »
Uh, yeah, but Nue threatens the heroine because they've seen her real form, aka the Nue we saw, so...

Quote from: Recon 5
She does have a 'base' form, so to speak. It's the form she takes when she isn't using her ability and maybe the one she reverts to if she gets knocked out.

Mm, these are good points. However, I'm not really convinced that the girl-with-scythe-wing form really is her 'true' form - she is entirely capable of using her power during that fight, so who's to say that even that form isn't an illusion? After all, we have discussed upthread that that picture is a mishmash of features from other characters, and there's no reason for those features to be present on a 'core' form.

[edit] To actually relate to the point - I maintain that we, the player/audience, have not seen Nue's true form. The protagonists may have, and I'll concede this point, but engine limitations means we only get girl-with-scythe-wings, which I do not believe is her true form.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 03:42:06 PM by Fightest »

Solais

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #238 on: October 31, 2009, 04:12:58 PM »
Well, dunno. Maybe she's Cthulhu.

Anyways I prefer this form of her, because it's cute.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #239 on: October 31, 2009, 05:49:42 PM »
Well, dunno. Maybe she's Cthulhu.

Anyways I prefer this form of her, because it's cute.

Heh, funny you should say that, I was kinda picturing Nue as a cosmic horror when I was going on about her not having an actual form.