Author Topic: Characters, music, personalities.  (Read 274018 times)

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #150 on: October 10, 2009, 12:19:50 PM »
This definitely sounds like something a Mokou fanboy would say. I don't mean any offense but it sounds like you're dismissing any potentially better themes that you've yet to hear as well. Why not leave that area open?

However, does Extend Ash match your impression of the ideal stage theme? If so, it would be hard to beat from your point of view.

Heh, it's not quite that bad. Basically I really like the melody to Extend Ash, for personal taste reasons. But I think you've got the wrong impression, I certainly don't dismiss tracks simply because "I don't like them as much as Extend Ash". That would be like me refusing to eat anything other than steak since nothing else is my favourite. I like other things, just not as much.

And no, it's not the ideal stage theme for me, I don't want more tracks that sound like it, as I feel ZUN's greatest strength is the variety of his compositions. I've yet to find two tracks that sound similar for a prolonged time, and I don't want this to change.

Oh yeah, I suppose that when I said "no stage theme can beat" I suppose it would be more accurate to say "no stage theme so far has beaten, and there have been a lot of good ones".
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 07:30:46 AM by Fightest »

Hieda no Aya

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #151 on: October 10, 2009, 11:49:58 PM »
ZUN's side albums are definitely worth checking out. I mean, it's ZUN music, and it's technically Touhou, what are the odds it's not gonna be good? Besides, G Free has nothing on Greenwich in the Sky or The Strange Everyday Life of the Flying Shrine Maiden. :V

The Satori discussion is also interesting. I guess she always seemed to me resigned to her isolation, a bit jaded. But then, she really fights dirty. I guess it's hard to say how much of her dickery is deliberate and how much is just a lack of boundaries, isn't it? Mind-readers are weird.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #152 on: October 11, 2009, 05:06:58 AM »
Going back to Reimu for a bit, I just realized that her sprite in fighting games has a perpetually annoyed expression except for when she uses spellcards and it changes to one of ecstasy (which is probably what inspired Tamiflu Miko). I don't know what to make of this in light of the Maiden's Capriccio analysis.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #153 on: October 11, 2009, 07:45:46 AM »
ZUN's side albums are definitely worth checking out. I mean, it's ZUN music, and it's technically Touhou, what are the odds it's not gonna be good? Besides, G Free has nothing on Greenwich in the Sky or The Strange Everyday Life of the Flying Shrine Maiden. :V

The Satori discussion is also interesting. I guess she always seemed to me resigned to her isolation, a bit jaded. But then, she really fights dirty. I guess it's hard to say how much of her dickery is deliberate and how much is just a lack of boundaries, isn't it? Mind-readers are weird.

I'll have a look at those, but in my spare time. Unless people really want me to, I won't analyse ZUN's side albums which do not relate to characters.

Satori. Yeah. I'll make an assumption first, which is that, considering Gensokyo+, Satori isn't a dick just for the hell of it and there will be underlying issues. In that case, you're right - she has isolation issues, and will have trouble identifying reasonable limits to her behaviour.

Quote from: Recon 5
Going back to Reimu for a bit, I just realized that her sprite in fighting games has a perpetually annoyed expression except for when she uses spellcards and it changes to one of ecstasy (which is probably what inspired Tamiflu Miko). I don't know what to make of this in light of the Maiden's Capriccio analysis.

First off, Tamiflu Miko is glorious to behold. I've never seen those videos before. Good lord.

As for Reimu's feelings during combat... I recall that I made the conclusion that Reimu has trouble understanding herself, and won't let anyone help in this regard, leading to her basically being in a perpetual identity crisis (until she does, indeed, find herself). The only things that are really concrete in her life would be the things she can perceive, the fundamental laws of physics and the like, which she can't really relate to. What she can relate to are the Spell Card Combat rules. Meaning every time a fight breaks out she doesn't have to think about who she is any more, she can just let loose and let the rules establish who she is and who she can be. I reckon this feeling of release is what leads to her expressions of ecstasy.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 07:47:33 AM by Fightest »

Jamuko

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #154 on: October 11, 2009, 11:21:56 AM »
This thread is awesome. I don't really have enough of a tuned ear for music to analyze these things myself, but they make perfect sense when I read what you have to say. Kinda adds a whole new perspective of depth on my respect for ZUN's composing.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #155 on: October 12, 2009, 02:11:55 PM »
This thread is awesome. I don't really have enough of a tuned ear for music to analyze these things myself, but they make perfect sense when I read what you have to say. Kinda adds a whole new perspective of depth on my respect for ZUN's composing.

Thanks for the positive feedback, and keep it coming!  ;D As always, I'm glad that I'm able to offer some new insights for everyone. And speaking of new insights...

Rin Kaenbyou ? Corpse Voyage ~ Be of Good Cheer!

Orin is quite hard to pin down, and I think this is what gives her a lot of her charm. The piece hops through moods and attitudes like they were nothing more than masks one puts on and takes off, never staying in one for long, like someone who can?t decide on their favourite desktop background and changes it every day (who? Me? Don?t know what you?re talking about). It?s too early to say if the word ?mask? is really appropriate ? whether the piece shows us the real parts of Orin, or whether the real her is hiding underneath an extremely varied act is not immediately obvious. As usual, I?ll go through this piece part by part, and I hope that, by the end, I?ll have an answer.

The first part is a towering, majestic affair, with powerful chords and instruments instilling a sense of awe. At first I thought the main instrument was organ, but now I think I?m mistaken ? that sound is created by a rather clever combination of brass and rock guitar. This, in itself, is probably not indicative of any character traits, but I do think it?s quite creative. Regardless, the long notes, the clear, ringing, high-pitched melody with little to no accompaniment, present the feeling of being the presence of something grand, powerful, with no room for tomfoolery. There is a genuine feeling in this section, no tells or winks in the form of ornaments or the like to tell us that this is a trick or a game ? this is the real thing. Of course, this does not rule out a good act by Orin, although it does tell us that she is certainly well-versed in self-presentation and bearing, she knows how to behave to be seen in a specific light, and this applies for all the upcoming sections.

Moving on to part two, the mood takes a whiplash turn into a far gentler, more lyrical direction. Almost exclusively in major, this soft melody is in stark contrast to the cold majesty of the part before. It is this contrast that is so evident between the five parts of this piece that convince me of what I mentioned above, that Orin switches between moods on an unpredictable, self-indulging basis. The melody here rarely ends far away from where it started, even though it might try to span large chords. The imagery in this part is of a cautious, gentle personality, one that cares for the listener, and makes sure not to surprise and overwhelm them.

Part three, compared to part two, is adventurous, more flamboyant. The accompaniment that was nothing more than a low hum in part two is now more pronounced, accenting individual chords, with the melody taking advantage of its high pitch to make this section a daring proclamation. The personality here is proud, boisterous, willing to satisfy its curiosity and taste for the dramatic.

Part four once again goes for the whiplash, suddenly moving into a lower pitch and a different key, sounding positively grim in contrast. We lose the melody, instead we get a passage that can only be described as brooding. Even the piano sounds muted. In another piece this part could be considered a connecting segment due to its lack of development of the piece proper, but, considering how different it is to every other part, it suddenly acquires a life of its own, becoming an inseparable part of the mood montage that makes up Orin. For Orin, even the process of brooding, the train of thought that leads from cause to effect, is a well-presented exterior, an exaggerated presentation of what?s going on in her mind at the moment, shown with all the seriousness that was dedicated to all the previous parts.

The fifth and final part, true to status quo, is sharply different to the part before it. The piano has lost its muted sound, ringing out loud and clear a playful melody, full of ornaments and syncopation that show an unmistakable playfulness that we?ve seen so often in other characters. And yet this part is given equal attention to all the others, which rules out the possibility of this being the ?true? Orin, who pretends to be what she?s not for the sake of fun.

What unifies each part is a certain sense of exaggeration of each one, as if Orin takes excessive care to show exactly who she?s trying to be. This precludes the personalities presented above as being natural to Orin. On the other hand, it?s not likely that she?d be able to construct so many personas without some sort of reference, so it?s likely that she?s actually intensifying aspects of her own personality, which is something I?d lean towards as opposed to all these personas being completely artificial constructs. In this case, Orin would bear a slight similarity to Tenshi, in that she loves experiencing her own moods and emotions, and cannot stand being in one state for a long time. It then makes sense that she would exaggerate her moods, even ones that only she can feel.


This is another one of those difficult pieces for me. There is a great variety in content, so I am entirely expecting conflicting opinions, and lots of them. I would be interested in what the rest of you have to say, as I?m not that confident about this particular analysis.


Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #156 on: October 12, 2009, 02:35:16 PM »
I always found the overall cheeriness of Rin's theme to be a bit out of place in SA. Yuugi at least has no problems to mope about but Rin has every reason to be a bit negative (Nuclear Fusion sounds like Okuu's new power has really gone to her head). However, the piece might speak of her normal character outside of the storyline, maybe even before Kanako's subterfuge- a simple, cheerful, honest girl who just goes along with her emotions and who is open about even the smallest things. No acts or facades here, I think.


Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #157 on: October 12, 2009, 04:32:18 PM »
I always found the overall cheeriness of Rin's theme to be a bit out of place in SA. Yuugi at least has no problems to mope about but Rin has every reason to be a bit negative (Nuclear Fusion sounds like Okuu's new power has really gone to her head). However, the piece might speak of her normal character outside of the storyline, maybe even before Kanako's subterfuge- a simple, cheerful, honest girl who just goes along with her emotions and who is open about even the smallest things. No acts or facades here, I think.

Yeah, that sounds about right. She might even be somewhat childish in her approach to things, since she's not had much opportunity to be around adults, considering the only people around her on any kind of regular basis are Satori and Utsuho. In fact, having said that, this could well be something true for the Satori&co crew - they've all been isolated, so will have trouble interacting with people suddenly barging in.

Tengukami

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #158 on: October 12, 2009, 05:10:34 PM »
Check your messages, Fightest.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Solais

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #159 on: October 12, 2009, 05:23:24 PM »
Yeah, that sounds about right. She might even be somewhat childish in her approach to things, since she's not had much opportunity to be around adults, considering the only people around her on any kind of regular basis are Satori and Utsuho. In fact, having said that, this could well be something true for the Satori&co crew - they've all been isolated, so will have trouble interacting with people suddenly barging in.

And, If I remember right, Orin uses 'Atai' too for "I", like Cirno. Yeah, she's childish. Or more like, she's a cat. She has mood swings like a real cat.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #160 on: October 13, 2009, 11:08:45 AM »
Ah, finally, the moment I?ve been waiting for.

Utsuho Reiuji ? Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom ~ Nuclear Fusion.

As I?ve probably mentioned before, this is my most favourite track amongst all those ZUN?s written so far, so I?ll ask everyone to bear with me while I gush for a bit.

What really makes the track work for me is a combination of visuals and attitude ? I didn?t really ?get it? until I actually saw Utsuho in action, and then it just clicked. To me, Utsuho is a Gurren Lagann character who wandered onto the set of Touhou, got all the appropriate makeovers but kept the attitude of hot-blooded shouting and superior firepower as a viable solution to any and all problems. Her dialogue just has me breaking out in a huge grin when she goes on about the power of nuclear fusion that distorts time itself, the high-temperature, high-pressure world that will scorch the land etc. etc. All she needs is a hearty ?Who the Hell do you think I am?? to finish the deal.

The whole piece is a testament to the words ?glorious? and ?triumphant?. ZUN pulls out all the tricks in the book to present a feeling of something grand and terrible, and I think he pulls it off with aplomb.

Concerning Utsuho?s personality, it?s hard to really determine ? she is utterly drunk with a devastating and flashy power that completely obscures any input we might get from Utsuho herself. In addition, the ?drunkenness? would distort any perception we might have of her personality, just as with a person inebriated in the normal fashion, so we might only get the vaguest brushstrokes of Utsuho?s picture. This in mind, I?ll actually get onto the piece.

I?ll start off with the devices ZUN uses to evoke the feeling of grandeur. These are, in fact, his usual fare, but they come together to create something greater than the sum of all parts. The most important part is the instrumentation and pitch. ZUN uses horns and trumpets for the majority of the piece, having an instrument selection that spans many octaves, most importantly catching the really low pitches that are usually reserved for the accompaniment. The accompaniment itself is even lower in pitch, and plays the usual supporting role of a deep and ominous power hum, the one that says ?there?s an ancient power here, beware.? Of course, this sort of pales in comparison to the brass blasting away at full strength across the entire pitch register, saying ?screw being careful, there?s all this power here, let?s use it.? In addition to the brass, a piano part is present throughout the piece, firmly in a comparably high pitch, only occasionally following the brass melody, but usually doing its own riff around it. Its clear, ringing sound suggests to me bursts of energy, sparking away as they wish; uncontrolled and unbounded by the stable reaction that Utsuho?s got going. Mostly these ?sparks? occur during the slower segments, whereas the piano tends to start following the rest of the melody when the pace picks up, creating imagery of such an overabundance of power that it simply needs to be released, whether Utsuho wants to or not.

Tempo and texture-wise, there is also a lot of contribution to the power present in the piece. Practically every note played by the brass is a chord, a big, powerful thing that stays for quite a long time due to the melodic sections being comparatively slow, which ensures that there is no dilution of the sound that?s being created. The tempo contrast present in the piece only furthers that: not counting the introduction, the second melodic segment picks up pace to release some energy, as I described above. Immediately following that part, we move into the third melodic part where the melody simply slow, no quicker than one or two chords per bar ? ?resounding? is a good descriptive word here. This is all about the imagery ? having released whatever power was overabundant, we are presented with Utsuho?s stable reaction, a huge, majestic glow, and are left to wonder if her source of power is really inexhaustible.

Harmony describes Utsuho?s fusion power as something aloof and inhuman, yet something that has been harnessed by someone who is all-too-human. The introduction?s buildup contains nothing but diminished and augmented chords, no harmonic structure to them whatsoever, presenting a power that does not care if it?s understood or not, and the first melodic part contains many sudden and sometimes illogical key changes, giving me this image of Utsuho not having a very good grasp on a reaction that she cannot comprehend, trying to harness it in different ways. By the third melodic part, she?s fully in control, and finally, I believe, we get a glimpse of her real nature ? the third part is practically all cadences, going from one strong harmony to another in quick and simple steps. Considering the melody, which I?ll get on to in a bit, I would say that Utsuho is quite simple, although not stupid ? after all, she is able to harness and contain this unsympathetic power. She does not delve into self-evaluation or discourse; she instead states things loudly and clearly and goes with what she decides on the spot. It is then easy to see how she was so easily convinced to take in all that power in the first place, as she is not the person to look back and think about things that happened in the past*. Hindsight is for sissies without nuclear fury to support them.
A last point for this section is that halfway through Utsuho tells the listener that yes, her power is inexhaustible, and turns it up a notch, moving the entire track up in pitch, entirely comfortably.

As for the melody, well, it supports what I just said ? it?s very simple. There?s a bit of variation, as there are three distinct melodic segments, although the second one is probably more of a connecting section with an extended ornament at the end, but the first segment is no more than 4 bars long, and the third segment is built up from nothing but cadences.

A final thought is that it is no wonder that Utsuho?s power goes to her head. She?s not the sharpest tool in the shed, spent most of her life in an abandoned Hell with a misanthropic master, so suddenly being able to call the shots and throw around nuclear fireballs would be huge break for Utsuho, and, considering her directness and simplicity, she would never really consider the consequences. It?s due to this that, I believe, that she started claiming to be starting an invasion against the surface world ? it?s just simple overexcitement and drunkenness. After all, who hasn?t made outrageous claims and done stupid things whilst drunk?


*It probably went something like this:

Kanako (waving a bar of chocolate): Hey, hell-crow, look, chocolate!
Utsuho (eyes wide): Wow, chocolate!

Utsuho attempts to grab the bar of chocolate, only for Kanako to hold it just out of her reach

Kanako (as if talking to a baby): Do you want the chocolate, girl? Do you want the chocolate?
Utsuho (hopping up and down): Yes! Chocolate!

Kanako takes out a suspicious package.

Kanako: Here, take this, and you?ll get the chocolate!
Utsuho Yay! Chocolate!

One nuclear fireball later, Utsuho is glowing with Cherenkov radiation.

Utsuho (through mouthfuls of chocolate): Mm, chocolate.

Prody

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #161 on: October 13, 2009, 12:11:36 PM »
CHOCOLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE.

Yea, Nuclear Fusion is full of remix potential as well. Check out all the MADs on Niconico Douga for enjoyable remixes.
Prody's anime list! - Prody's favourite MADs on NicoDouga! - Me when steam trading
I wonder if anyone knows the true meaning of the last song in Nanairo?
the economy the economy the economy the economy

Zengar Zombolt

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #162 on: October 13, 2009, 12:30:20 PM »
CHOCOLATEEEE

Anyways, I wonder if the song also shows how... short is Okuu's memory (In Sanae's UNL Route, she forgets what she was doing right in the middle of the fight).

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #163 on: October 13, 2009, 02:00:43 PM »
CHOCOLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE.

Yea, Nuclear Fusion is full of remix potential as well. Check out all the MADs on Niconico Douga for enjoyable remixes.

Interesting you should say that, as I've been trawling through plenty of Nuclear Fusion remixes on Youtube, and actually only liked one out of all of 'em. For me, hardly anybody really "gets it", and they always tend to miss something that I like that I would never cut from it. I'm really fickle when it comes to Nuclear Fusion, as I find it pretty much perfect as is.

Prody

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #164 on: October 13, 2009, 02:55:30 PM »
Actually, Nuclear Fusion's melody in the climax stands out to me very much. Probably the most epic song I've heard in the series.

For the remixes, there are more innovative ones like
Spoiler:
Okuu's Gym
and remixes like this.
Prody's anime list! - Prody's favourite MADs on NicoDouga! - Me when steam trading
I wonder if anyone knows the true meaning of the last song in Nanairo?
the economy the economy the economy the economy

Hieda no Aya

  • I see you remodeled.
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #165 on: October 13, 2009, 05:13:32 PM »
I'll have a look at those, but in my spare time. Unless people really want me to, I won't analyse ZUN's side albums which do not relate to characters.
Oh, yeah, I didn't expect analysis. It's just good music is all. :D Though if I were cruel I guess I could work out themes for all the non-game characters (there are a couple who clearly have them) and try to make you do those. But I'm not.

Good ol' Nuclear Fusion. I always loved the whole atmosphere of Utsuho's boss fight; it's so stylish, and the style in question is the style of awesome. It's like your last and greatest reward for making it through the game. (Well, until I get good enough for extra stages, I suppose.)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 05:17:52 PM by Hieda no Aya »

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #166 on: October 13, 2009, 07:20:49 PM »
Oh, yeah, I didn't expect analysis. It's just good music is all. :D Though if I were cruel I guess I could work out themes for all the non-game characters (there are a couple who clearly have them) and try to make you do those. But I'm not.

I assume you're talking about characters like the Watatsuki sisters and Reisen mark 2. So you know what? You're on. This sounds like it could be a good source for discussion. But only the proper, canonical ones, mind you.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #167 on: October 13, 2009, 10:35:55 PM »
Speaking of canonical characters, surely Akyu and Rinnosuke need themes.

Hieda no Aya

  • I see you remodeled.
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #168 on: October 13, 2009, 11:09:51 PM »
Haha, maybe so. ZUN usualy includes a music CD of two or three tracks with each of his books, volume manga releases, etc, so there's material, and some of the songs are titled indicatively enough to associate with characters, but beyond that it'd be guesswork, and who knows if that's even supposed to be the point with them? (If there's any meaning to the existence of Sunnymilk's Scarlet Mist Incident, it can only be alarming.) Then there's oddities like his decision to do PMiSS and SSiB's music in old-fashioned FM synth, and I'm not sure there are enough songs for everyone in SSiB anyway, although I guess there's one more volume due so maybe there'll be more music...

Er, anyway, all that said, if you wanna, I'll give it a shot. Along with anyone else who wants to help with that. But after you've gotten through the rest of this project. ;)

Not-Edit: Recon, sadly, CoLA has yet to get any music that I know of, so I don't think Kourin gets a theme, even though he totally DOES deserve one. For Akyuu, the PMiSS CD has a "Child of Are", which is probably a pretty reasonable bet for her.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #169 on: October 13, 2009, 11:22:02 PM »
Maybe Kourin will get a theme after all the mid-bosses (barring Tewi) get theirs.

Zengar Zombolt

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #170 on: October 14, 2009, 12:14:31 AM »
Sunnymilk's Scarlet Mist Incident
...
That song is a remix of UNOwen, right?

Hieda no Aya

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #171 on: October 14, 2009, 02:53:02 AM »
U.N. Owen and Sunny Rutile Flection or whatever the heck that title's supposed to be, which comes from one of the earlier three fairies releases. Yeah.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #172 on: October 14, 2009, 02:02:16 PM »
Final entry for SA, after which I'll take a few days' break from my analyses, as doing these is actually pretty demanding. This will be a good time for anyone to bring up things like remixes and off-character ZUN works and discuss them - I'm certainly willing to do so.

Koishi Komeiji - Hartmann's Youkai Girl

I feel a terrifying intelligence in this piece. A kind of immense wisdom that comes with being worldly and experienced, the kind that naturally elevates its possessor above the listener, who can only marvel at the thoughts that cross the mind of this person. Furthermore, the amount of force - less outward power but more intensity - behind the music in all but one section hints at someone who will not stop until they have reached their objective, ignoring pain and injury, their own or that of others.

The first two motifs that we hear, first one coming in right at the start, the second one at 0:20, serve the same purpose in the piece - powerful, forceful non-melodies that break down the listener's perceptions and expectations, softening them up for whatever Koishi wants to bring onto them next. The first segment is prominent for its highly broken rhythm, and starting off on something like this is bound to immediately impress on the listener that something is not right. It is a segment that establishes that Koishi is in control of the listener, and the listener has nothing on her - there's no real melody to follow, no rhythm to rely on, so the listener is put on the defensive immediately. To consolidate this, trumpet chords come in at a fast tempo (around 0:10), loud and high-pitched to draw attention to themselves; however these trumpets tend to skip about violently, missing strong beats, sometimes almost disappearing in the accompaniment due to an uncharacteristically low pitch, other times emphasizing with high pitch completely illogical notes - once again the listener has nothing to really rely on and gets pushed back into a corner by the oppressive noise that the piece is putting out. It is as if Koishi is violently stripping away the listener's psychological defenses.

The second motif seems to push even deeper, each set of three notes methodically, clinically changing position one half-tone at a time, as if always moving for a better grip on the psyche, whilst keeping up the force inherent in the instrumentation, giving the impression that this is far from a gentle investigation, but instead a brutal and merciless analysis of everything the victim has to hide.

These motifs keep repeating, each one getting at least one more iteration to show that this is a slow and painful process for everyone involved. No shortcuts are taken or breaks made - there is only Koishi's dead-set determination and stubborn willpower. Then the third section starts. All of the intensity is gone, all the merciless violence and force have been replaced by a gentle melody. There is almost no accompaniment for the first part of the third motif, only a guitar occasionally plucking a chord here or there. The feeling is that of a great relief, as if all the pressure that's been pent up has finally been released, and a short state of simpleness, almost Nirvana has been achieved. Quickly, however, layers are added, a bit of extra force is added to the melody that stays as a sort of guiding beacon for a confused and disoriented listener.

I have a very specific image that has formed by now. Koishi's power is "manipulation of the subconscious". In the real world, this is done by psychiatric approaches and gentle prodding of the patient. Koishi, it seems, has super-psychiatry abilities, and uses them to blast away with extreme prejudice the usual complexes and layers of self-doubt that often obscure true psychological issues. Once she has done so, she can get at the exposed psyche and begin with the healing process, forcefully, but methodically. It's like getting teeth drilled to cure a toothache - it'll hurt like hell before they get to the source of the problem, but afterward the relief will be palpable.

Solais

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #173 on: October 14, 2009, 05:18:28 PM »
Uh, Koishi's theme. This was the first theme I had to listen to, while reading the analysis. Also, Koishi is always the one character at the bottom when I do a Touhou Sorting. It's not that I hate her, no, but I really don't know her. All of the doujins I have didn't have her. And the only Extra Stage I haven't played (besides SoEW's) is Koishi's stage (because of the difficulty of SA). It seems, I get to like music when I'm fighting against someone, and I get to know them; through the music, I get to know them. This never happened with Koishi. And even thought I've listened to the music (what I don't really like, for the same reasons) while reading your analysis, I'm sorry, but I still don't know anything about her.

As for ZUN's other works... rearranged Reincarnation is awesome. (And Ezel-Ash's version, too).
Also, thought it's not ZUN's work, for me, the arrange of "Memory of Forgathering Oriental Dream" on the IaMP OST is the embodiment of Gensokyo itself.

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #174 on: October 14, 2009, 06:46:59 PM »
Uh, Koishi's theme. This was the first theme I had to listen to, while reading the analysis. Also, Koishi is always the one character at the bottom when I do a Touhou Sorting. It's not that I hate her, no, but I really don't know her. All of the doujins I have didn't have her. And the only Extra Stage I haven't played (besides SoEW's) is Koishi's stage (because of the difficulty of SA). It seems, I get to like music when I'm fighting against someone, and I get to know them; through the music, I get to know them. This never happened with Koishi. And even thought I've listened to the music (what I don't really like, for the same reasons) while reading your analysis, I'm sorry, but I still don't know anything about her.

Honestly, I feel the same. Extra Boss themes tend to be very focused, without the huge expanses of character information that Stage 6 Boss themes almost always have. It's even worse for me when it comes to SA, since Nuclear Fusion is the track of note for me, so Koishi's theme almost feels like an afterthought, which is being really unfair on her. I guess that if I had to summarise what little I get from Koishi is that she is well-versed in intricacies of the human (and human-like) mind, and uses her knowledge to reveal her targets' subconscious to them, probably for a benign goal, considering the relief that is evident in the third motif. Actually her MO is very similar to Satori's - they both come up to people and reveal these people's thoughts to them. Satori does so in a selfish manner, due to her isolation. On the other hand, Koishi does so in a seemingly selfless manner, due to her worldly experience from her wanderings. To put it simply, I see Koishi as a wandering doctor-type, healing ailments of the mind as opposed to those of the body.

Hmm, I wonder if this paragraph should actually be edited into in my actual analysis, since I'd think it kinda helps reveal some of Koishi's motivations. Eh, everyone'll read it anyway.

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #175 on: October 14, 2009, 06:47:21 PM »
Maybe Kourin will get a theme after all the mid-bosses (barring Tewi) get theirs.

i see lot of times in fan videos and even games (Touhou Soccer) who Rinnosuke is related with the song "Kid's Festival ~ Innocent Treasures" (who is called too the "ZUN song"...) ...probably because some people see Kourin like an "avatar" of ZUN in Gensokyo...and,that song have "lyrics" (no used) who are similar to a dialogue in CoLA, Rinnosuke thinking about if Gensokyo,and even himself are only an ilusion.Ah, and the name of the song.
(IOSYS used two times "Magic Shop of Raspberry" like a song Kourin related. One for "These Two Wings" (with Marisa) and the new "KORINDOH FINAL BAZAAR"...maybe because for the word "shop" in it. (and that song of ZUN is an unused song no related with nothing but really good...))


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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #176 on: October 14, 2009, 08:14:16 PM »
Ah, so that's why there was lyrics in the Winn EWI video of Innocent Treasures! So those are original, huh. So, this means, Innocent Treasures is ZUN's first real song. Hmmm...
Actually I've been planning to listen to ZUN's albums again, while reading the stories about Mary and Renko. Maybe, with the stories, the music will sound more... deep or meaningful.

Btw, actually after reading these analyses, sometimes I've been thinking about what kind of theme I would have. But I couldn't think of anything, because while I'm very sensitive to music (I mean, I can't take my mp3 player to anywhere, because every time I listen to music, I sorta get into a trance, and can't pay attention to anything else, because the music just drift me away from reality), I'm still not a musician.

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #177 on: October 14, 2009, 09:02:56 PM »
Btw, actually after reading these analyses, sometimes I've been thinking about what kind of theme I would have. But I couldn't think of anything, because while I'm very sensitive to music (I mean, I can't take my mp3 player to anywhere, because every time I listen to music, I sorta get into a trance, and can't pay attention to anything else, because the music just drift me away from reality), I'm still not a musician.

Aah, personal theme music. If you'll allow me to wax philosophical for a bit, I'd say that searching for a single personal theme is ultimately a bit of a fruitless affair. Any given person can have so many different moods and feelings that to truly capture them all you'd need a proper hour-long symphony. After all, every character in Touhou is, despite any three-dimensionality we might have found for them in this thread, mostly a snapshot, their personality describable in a single sentence. This is fine, as they are characters used to tell a story. Since the story isn't about a single specific character, there's only a limited amount of attention that the story can give them, thus there is no real point to fleshing out every aspect of their character.

You, (or anyone else, for that matter) on the other hand are the main character of your own story, with all the attention to character detail that you thus deserve. I would find it surprising if you didn't switch through at least three distinct personas in a single day, depending on your physical condition, your surroundings, the events of the previous day etc, so already you'd require three distinct themes, plus interludes, developments, transitions. Then we add in everything that's occurred to you previously and develop themes for that, and we get an abundance of variety that simply won't fit into one piece.

On the other hand, if you wish to present a musical snapshot of yourself to others, a "describe yourself in one sentence" thing, then that is far easier, but, obviously, gives no more information than a photograph - they'd get only the surface detail, and none of the deeper meaning you might want to get across.

I hope that made sense, I've also often wondered about people's personal theme music. Nowadays I just let whatever music I'm listening to take over my thought process - if I'm listening to gothic metal I get the feeling that I, myself, am in an epic struggle, if it's J-pop then I'm suddenly all colourful and energetic. Now, obviously I can relate to the music on my mp3 player, as that is why it's on there in the first place, so basically my entire music collection is my theme music. I would think that this could apply to everyone else as well, in that the collection of the tracks one favours is the best theme music possible for an individual.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 09:06:58 PM by Fightest »

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #178 on: October 14, 2009, 11:18:25 PM »
@Fightest: I've always thought that the 'breaking, entering and healing' that you described is sort of a natural Koishi thing, sort of like Satori being creepy and Flan blowing stuff up. It isn't her job or her hobby, it's her basic character. By just being around her you immediately start off experiencing all sorts of weird stuff but after everything's over you realize you know yourself better. She may not even be able to keep it from happening but hey, if it makes people easier to talk to I don't think she minds.

ZUN seems to have started a mini-trend of upbeat extra bosses after IN ('mini' depending on whether or not you view Nue as an upbeat boss). They're basically kids playing around and while they may be a bit offended at having missed all the fun they're not the monsters or forces of nature that earlier Ex bosses were presented as (note the 'presented as'. Gensokyo+ [borrowing Fightest's term here] means they aren't really monsters, just presented as terrifying and dangerous). 


Solais

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #179 on: October 14, 2009, 11:31:24 PM »
Hmm, interesting. Yeah, it does make sense, as I'm also studying philosophy (and other stuff) at college, and I already made philosophic theories when I was only 10 (hence, why I'm such a theoryfag). Hmm. So if every track I favor is my theme music, that means my theme music is constantly changing. Yet, while it constantly changes, these changes are more slower than for most people and I tend to listen to 6 or 7 tracks for a long a long time before changing them, and I always left the old ones on the player, even thought I won't listen to them, only when I remember them being there, and I only remove them when there's not enough space. But, I still have all my music I had on my harddrives.

So, to analyze that, I'm a person who lives slowly, only biting little from Life, forgetting things slowly, and never forgetting anything at the end. I like both slow and fast music, to symbolize that I have two distinct side, two personalities, and I somehow like when a music have a slow and a fast side, too, creating a harmonious third personality. It's just like how I love Patchy and Sanae, but I associate with Alice the most; yet I don't love her, because I don't love myself, I just only like myself, yet I love my two sides.
The variety of the genres I love (aka I love what I love, I don't mind what genre), means that I'm open minded. However, I mostly like music what common people around me don't like (j-music, folk and irish music, etc.), what symbolizes how I'm different from the common people.

Wow! I'm impressed! Analyzing music what people like can really teach you their personalities (or of your own)! I think this should make a great research project in college, when I'll get work like this. I certainly hope so there will be one.