Keyboard Actuation, Key Types and Touhou

[HalfGrand]

Maidens and Bakebake's, lately I have been researching and looking at the market for a brand new keyboard since the one that I am typing on right now is the last remaining piece of computer wear that I have from the 90's. The "A" key is starting to get a little stiff and it is pretty much about time for an update.

This whole situation has got me thinking about gaming keyboards and how based on how they design the keys on the keyboard, your performance in a game like Touhou (that DEMANDS precise keystrokes and twitch button presses and the like) could possibly be improved slightly due to you not having to actuate keystrokes as much as you possibly would on a regular keyboard.

I was wondering which of the two here would be better: chiclet keys or regular mechanical switch keys? I was thinking that chiclet keys would be the better choice here because you don't have to press the key down as much as you would on a regular keyboard.

Something like here for example: http://www.razerzone.com/au-en/gaming-keyboards-keypads/razer-deathstalker

Douse anybody here have much experience with gaming keyboards and if they actually do make a difference when playing an input intensive game like Touhou? If they don't make a difference in the end then I would hate to waste my money on them. But hey, maybe a special keyboard is a *requirement* for these types of games?  :derp:

[Romantique Tp]

As far as gaming is concerned there's very little difference between "normal" keyboards for as long as they don't suffer from ghosting on important keys. You can literally just buy a cheap wired Microsoft keyboard and you're good.

Getting a good gaming monitor would make a much bigger difference in terms of perceived input delay than getting a chiclet keyboard. The delay between moving your finger and pressing a key deep enough for it to actually register your input is extremely low even on a normal keyboard. Chiclet keys are more fragile and barely faster than normal keys.

[Uruwi]

Also my laptop keyboard tends to "stick" when I've been playing for a long time (I often rebind IJKL to the arrow keys). That is not a good thing.

[ARF]

I never really understood the importance of having mechanical keys for 2hu, it felt like you could achieve high level control (or at least consistent, precise inputs) with a rubber dome keyboard. I like to half-press the keys and hoover over the actuation point. I don't think I'm a great player so I might just not feel the difference ;_;

[Monarda]

I also agree a better Monitor is way more useful, i compared my new one (LG LED 1920x1080) to my old Laptop one (Dell LCD 1336x768), and in the Laptop, the bullets look slimmer and harder to squeeze through, the colors also feel a little too bright. (Also get a good pair of Headphones/Headset if you don`t have one to hear that awesome OST.)

[Cream Soda]

I'd agree that any keyboard that doesn't ghost on the keys you need is just fine but the cherry mx switches do have unique textures that some people prefer. If you like to hover over the actuation point, you may want a more clicky type like browns. Some types have the actuation point higher than the release point and some don't. My preference is reds because they're very light and smooth so I can press the keys easily. Mechanical switches make more noise, which can kind of suck if you're trying to play danmaku in a crowded environment or at night. I recommend reading up on cherry mx switches, something like this page. My Kamui menace world record and my Raiden 1-all were both achieved on a cheap laptop keyboard iirc, although those games are a lot faster and less tight than, say, Touhou lunatic. I've had some real disasters trying to dodge danmaku on a cheap laptop keyboard where the keys get stuck but even with a crap keyboard I've managed some cool spell captures so I'd say player skill is a bigger factor. Good luck on your search for a new keyboard, Arf-kun! ^_^

edit: lol for some reason I thought arf's post was first but ummmm stuff still applies so

[HalfGrand]

Getting a good gaming monitor would make a much bigger difference in terms of perceived input delay than getting a chiclet keyboard.

I also agree a better Monitor is way more useful

Hmmm... I wonder if this might be the answer to why I can play Touhou better on my spare computer than on my main computer. But still, another thing to spend money on ;_;

still... rubber dome keyboards, Cherry MX blacks/blues/reds/browns... I never really knew there were so much variety and types of keyboards out there to pick from. In the end, all the choice available makes picking one for the long haul a tough decision.

Mechanical switches make more noise, which can kind of suck if you're trying to play danmaku in a crowded environment or at night.

Yes, I know the ones your talking about. Those were the types that older keyboards had around the 80's and early 90's. Noisy keyboard's with their overly clicky sounds they make can be a bit of a distraction when I'm trying to focus on something so I will pass on those.

Are their any keyboards out there that anybody here recommends or if the one they are using is any good? I would hate to buy a keyboard one of these days and think to myself "hmm, this doesn't feel quite right...".

As far as gaming is concerned there's very little difference between "normal" keyboards for as long as they don't suffer from ghosting on important keys.

I knew it! All of the gaming keyboards that boasted "extreme performance" and "e-sports picks" and things like that smelled a bit snake oily to me. I simply refused to buy into the advertising jargon because it seemed a bit far-fetched.

My Kamui menace world record and my Raiden 1-all were both achieved on a cheap laptop keyboard iirc

OOoooh, I've got a world record holder giving me advice! I'm not worthy!... I'm not worthy!!!  :getdown:

As a guy who has 1cc'd normal modes on all the Touhou games but still can't do it consistently and move up to hard mode, people like you intrigue me. I've got Raiden III on my computer here and I remember that game was brutal towards the end.

[shockdude]

What monitors and keyboards do you currently use on your main computer and on your spare computer?

Keyboards unfortunately are one of those things that are hard to evaluate unless you have physical access to the keyboard itself.
I use a Logitech MK520 wireless mouse & keyboard set. It works for both typing and Touhou (can press shift+X+Z+two arrow keys), but it's not perfect (not wired, included mouse develops middle-click issues after about a year).

Monitors are easy: anything with an "Excellent" rating in the DisplayLag database will be good enough. There are other factors to account for (response time, IPS vs TN, refresh rate, etc.) but that's for a different thread.

[Cream Soda]

I've got Raiden III on my computer here and I remember that game was brutal towards the end.

Raiden 1 and 2 are a *lot* nastier by a long shot. Those are lengthy games where bombs will not save you, dying will cripple you, and things will kill you before you see them. Raiden 3 is still pretty fun and certainly a lot less frustrating. You can probably tell I'm a Seibu/Moss fan. ^^

[dosboot]

Mechanical keyboards are different from the old days.  In particular, they aren't necessarily noisy unless you want to buy the kind that is noisy.

Anyway, I've thought about this question before and the best instance of where I think keyboards should theoretically matter the most is something like this.  Namely it is during instances where you are trying to create *brief* directional inputs.  Maybe it is just me, but I cannot (reliably) get my input durations down that small, so I suspect this varies with keyboard models.

I don't think the delay between your finger and the key activation is important at all.  Your brain takes into account that kind of stuff seamlessly.

I played extensively on a normal keyboard (rubber dome) for years before getting a mechanical one (cherry brown switches).  It was an improvement (both in general feel and with small movements) but it isn't major.  IMHO, mechanical keyboards are still worth considering just for the more comfortable typing experience.

[HalfGrand]

I don't think the delay between your finger and the key activation is important at all.  Your brain takes into account that kind of stuff seamlessly.

I sometimes wonder about that when I see someone do a Lunatic no bomb no miss run of a game. I wonder if it comes from an obsessional need to practice and be "perfect" in the game or if it comes down to the hardware they use.

Seriously, I sometimes wonder if these hardcore players take drugs or something to increase their concentration ability, finger movement or something like that. is it all really just down to practice?

IMHO, mechanical keyboards are still worth considering just for the more comfortable typing experience

I would like to get myself a keyboard that I can use for both gaming and work related stuff. Having 2 keyboards (one for gaming and one for typing) would get a little unwieldy at times.

I'm finding that when I go shopping at tech stores to browse the keyboards they have, The boxes that the keyboards come in don't actually tell you what kind of switches they use (cherry colors or not). It's getting kind of annoying like that.

[Sakurei]

I sometimes wonder about that when I see someone do a Lunatic no bomb no miss run of a game. I wonder if it comes from an obsessional need to practice and be "perfect" in the game or if it comes down to the hardware they use.

Seriously, I sometimes wonder if these hardcore players take drugs or something to increase their concentration ability, finger movement or something like that. is it all really just down to practice?

I would like to get myself a keyboard that I can use for both gaming and work related stuff. Having 2 keyboards (one for gaming and one for typing) would get a little unwieldy at times.

It's practice. Drugs and the like won't help you if you're bad. I also don't think most people who have LNNs (or WRs) count as obsessive. It's also important to note that it's more important how you spend your time rather than how much time you spend. The input device isn't horribly important as long as it doesn't ghost. Some players use red cherry (Yu-suke or Cactu afaik), others use brown (some IN players like dede2hu, yorgje and the bestest western IN player). Yet again other people use a pad (Zil and Lep, for example) and then some poor people like me use rubber domes. You can get good with any reasonable input device (although most people say they saw improvement when they switched from rubber dome to mechanical, idk).

Again, I don't think most people who go for LNN obsess over it. There are some cases where they take longer than they should have (due to bad luck or nerves for example) but wanting to finish something you started is pretty normal when you have a goal oriented mindset with these games.

[cactu]

120hz monitor/CRT with mechanical keyboard (red or brown) or good pad (horipads/saturnpad/F310) is a requirement imo. So is playing with true 4:3 not upscaled resolution when playing full-screen.

[Glaceon Mage]

Imo, the most important thing is keeping the arrow key layout and size consistent with what you're used to.

I can't play on my laptop keyboard because the arrow keys are smaller than they were on the computer I used to use, so I use a USB keyboard that is closer to the old one.

I don't think much more is needed beyond consistency.

[Zerviscos]

Mechanical switches come in a variety of types.
But the most common in the market today are: Reds, Browns, and Blues.

Reds are considered as Linear switches, since they have no click, and due to it, the actuation point is not noticeable at all.
Browns and Blues are clicky/Tactile switches, but Browns are in-between Reds and Blues, because they have the same actuation point as Reds, but still have that clicky/Tactile feedback so you'd know you've register the switch.
Blues are the clickiest of the three, they have a higher actuation point, and due to it, you need to have a considerable amount of force to register the key.

Reds are considered for "gaming", esp for FPS games due to their linearity, but there will be issues when typing, and with that you need to bottom out most of the time to register a key.
Browns are my personal favorite, and it's my daily driver, due to it's lower actuation point than Blues, same as red, but still remain that clicky feeling so I know I pressed a key. It's actually one of the most preferred switches considering it's in-between Red and Blue, and has an even-score in-between them as well, while the latter suffers low from typing for Reds and gaming for Blues.
Blues are considered mostly for typing, and a lot of people with heavy hands use blues if Browns isn't enough for them, or too soft.

As for other types, there are such like Buckling Spring, Topre, and such. Topre is just one of the alternatives to Mechanical Switches, and work the same way AFAIK. Buckling Springs are like Blue switches, they're pretty clicky, and for their name. There are also others like Logitech's Roamer-G switches, their own designed switches, but also works similar to Mechanical Switches, but they are designated for gaming. And also Razer switches(AYYLMAO), also like MS but for gaming...srz though, Razer...

As for other keyboard types, you know how Dome, Scissor Switches, Membranes, and Capacitive works in general, so I'm not gonna bother with that.

As for my opinion, if you're going to buy a keyboard, especially if it's just one keyboard, because there are people who use different keyboards for different purposes, you want to buy something that you can use all-around. So it really depends on what's your "all-around" business, like, do you play a lot of games, type a lot of words, browse a lot of stuff, etc.? It all depends on your preference. You can try for advice on what you prefer on MechKb Reddit.

As for me, if you're going for a mechanical switch though and for the sole purpose of playing Touhou, go for the Reds. You don't want much force and tactile bump when moving around. Since it's linear, you really won't feel anything, other than the sound. If you think chiclet switches are soft, wait till you try a Red switch.

Oh and...lol, srz...skip Razer. They're horrible. Their PR Min Liang Tan, is one of the most hype-makers of products in the industry. Even lying about how their Razer switches are more expensive than Cherry MX, when they specifically said back then that it was the reason why they made their own switch, because Cherry MX is expensive. And now their Blackwidow X Chroma only features one Cherry MX switch, and it's a blue...Other than that, Razer is known to be quite "lemon-y", because most products people get either malfunction fast, or get broken and RMA'd. And I'm not being a hateful guy here, my experience with my 2013 Naga seriously, the double clicks. My DeathAdder Chroma, which I bought because it was regarded as one of the best mouse in 2015, practically fade clicks and left click is now bottom-out, I had to RMA it and sell it to get a G502 from Logitech instead, but I still bought a Razer Krait 2013 cause it was on sale, and why not? I use it for browsing and stuff. IMO, the only good products they have are mousepads + some of their older stuff like Blackwidow 2013, and tourney non-backlit keyboards. Summary, Razer is pretty much only hype all the time.

I'd rather prefer you get good brands like Logitech, Ducky, Corsair, Element, and some of CoolerMaster. Also if they have some switch tests in your store, try different switches to feel what you prefer.

Remember that keyboards have different layouts. If you want custom keycaps, better get one with a standard bottom row.

*I am currently using a Corsair Strafe RGB Browns btw.

Edit:
I want to comment on this.

Douse anybody here have much experience with gaming keyboards and if they actually do make a difference when playing an input intensive game like Touhou? If they don't make a difference in the end then I would hate to waste my money on them. But hey, maybe a special keyboard is a *requirement* for these types of games?  :derp:

Yes they do make a difference, but it will still depends on your skill as an individual. If you suck, you suck. But it will improve in various scenarios, because things like the mechanical switches help ease click points and comfortably do so without getting tired as much, due to the fact that mechanical switches don't usually need to be bottomed out just so it can register the key, it only needs to hit that actuation point, unlike other keyboards like rubber-domed, where you really need that dome to just press the PCB just to register. And that's the main reason why it's mostly used for gaming, because it's just that better. Especially now that mechanical keyboards are now improving by the year thanks to the gaming community, they just keep getting better and better, even lower decibels so you won't hear that noise.

Here's a video of Linus for a good basic understanding on mechanical keyboards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXCKHoiNu1o
Note how he says how membrane keyboards can be fatiguing. And AFAIK tbh, most membrane/domes/scissor switches are rather flat keyboards, instead of in an angle, which can be rather hard from my experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHnMcFGkGcA
Another one.

Still go with your preferences though. Try them out at a store first. If you still want membrane or chiclet keys, go with what you want.

As for monitors. Get one with a lower response time and input lag. You don't need a higher refresh rate monitor just yet, since it's only good for screen-tearing and motion blur if you get high FPS in games with high particle effects, and such, but that's why you have VSync.