Shottype Discussion

[Nameschonvergeben]

Since discussion is not wanted in the other thread I made this one for the discussion.

I started a discussion in the other thread by asking, where in IN Sakuya as part of the Scarlet Team has trouble killing familiars that matter. So far the only annswer I got was this

All of Keine's spells including her midboss one. Reimu's 1st and 4th nons. Reisen's 2nd non. Kaguya's 3rd spell. In all of which killing familiars helps a lot. Reisen's 2nd spell too, though admittedly it's not a big deal there.

Though I will say, after doing another play through with the scarlet team she isn't as god awful as I remember. Still terrible, but not as terrible as I remembered. She crushes Astronomical Entombing and has an easier time with Earth/Galaxy in a pot and against Reimu than Mari/Ali. Still, Youmu's strong shot and Malice are better at killing familiars in general. And while Reimu isn't much better, the border team has enough other benefits to make up for it.

On Keine Sakuya kills the familiars fine on Ephemerality 137, which is the only Spell that becomes actually easier when you kill familiars, atleast I can't see how other spells would be easier. Maybe you can provide a replay that shows a way that really simplifies them or explain more in detail?

On Reimus nons there is really no reason to kill the familiars at all, I have no idea where you're coming from with that. They basically act as destructable bullets that can be ignored by focusing.

On Reisens second non Sakuya kills the familiars just fine, though I don't know how fast other shots kill them, with scarletteam it's probably not easier than killing the non with all familiars, so if that's different for Youmu/Marisa I guess that's a fair point.Killing familiars at Reisens second spell has got to be a joke though....

Kaguyas third spell is easy already so for survival it doesn't make much of a difference, I guess the graze might be pretty cool though, so I guess it's a point if you like that graze.

Btw, Reimu isn't "not much better", she's worse at killling familiars (on astronomical entombing for example).

Oh and sorry for being passive agressive in the other thread, but apparently that's the only way to make you guys answer

[Mero]

Oh and sorry for being passive agressive in the other thread, but apparently that's the only way to make you guys answer

It was a way to get me to not answer, but since you seem genuinely interested, I have no reason not to.

Keine's spells do become easier by killing familiars, but any trouble Sakuya has actually doing that comes from her being a spread shot rather than her being weak. Still, you make a fair point, killing familiars is hardly ever needed on bosses, and for stage enemies it's better to kill them with a youkai if possible, as it cancels some of the bullets and, well, the enemy dies faster.
I did know Reimu is actually worse than Sakuya at killing familiars, but she has a good bomb to compensate. Unlike all the other humans', Sakuya's bombs hit targets rather than areas and since enemies don't share bomb damage, familiars do get in the way. Even without taking familiars into account, I still think Sakuya is not very good, she has both a weak shot and bomb, though that's a hard impression not to get when Marisa and Youmu are very strong shots and both Fantasy Seals are very strong bombs (plus, Reimu and Youmu's abilities are arguably more useful).

E: btw, I did think that I made a wrong choice of words and edited my post in ZM's thread a while ago

[TresserT]

For Keine's midboss spell, killing familiars helps a lot. With Youmu and Marisa you have to do some risky high speed micrododging for a moment, but it's worth it because it really reduces the bullet density for the rest of the spell. Youmu's even better because she can then switch to the slow Yuyuko, and low speeds obviously make micrododging easier. With Scarlet team, Sakuya can't kill the familiars quickly enough to make a difference, and Remilia is so fast, it's basically risky high speed micrododging for the entire spell.

For Keine's 2nd and final spells, Youmu (and I'd assume Marisa) can kill at least 1 of the familiars before any bullets ever even reach them, which again makes things less dense for the rest of the pattern. Sakuya, once again, can't kill the familiars quickly enough, so the high speed Remilia has to dodge a greater number of bullets.

Maybe it's just because I'm not used to fighting her with the Scarlets (I usually use the 9 stages patch, so I still fight her often with the Ghost and Border teams). But I have a hard time staying under Reimu and dodging her walls if I stay focused for her nonspells. It's noticeable on her 1st spell, but it's really noticeable on her 4th. In fact, I thought that was the whole point of the familiars in her 4th. In the third she shoots walls at you, you go unfocused, jump to the other side of the screen, focus to dodge the leftover amulets and deal more damage. In the fourth you can't play unfocused because of the yin yangs. Unless you have a shot type that can kill them quickly.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but in Reisen's 2nd non, Youmu and Marisa can at least kill one of the familiars before too many bullets reach them, which makes the pattern less dense, then Youmu can switch to Yuyuko which makes micrododging easier. Sakuya can't kill the familiars quickly, so you either have to play unfocused for a long time trying to kill a familiar, or play focused with the fast Remilia taking on all 4 familiars (compared to Yuyuko, or even Alice taking on 3).

As I said, Sakuya being unable to kill familiars in Reisen's 2nd spell isn't a big deal. It was just an observation because Youmu can, even though it hardly makes a difference.

Even if Kaguya's 3rd spell is easy, the fact is Youmu and Marisa can kill the familiars quickly and make the spell even easier whereas Sakuya can't. Though I'll still admit, it is an easy spell, so I won't push that one.

And to be honest, their inability to kill familiars isn't even my biggest problem with the Scarlet team lol. It's just one more thing, I guess you could say the straw that broke the camel's back.

I can't do a replay right this second, but if you really want me to I'll do one tomorrow.

Like I said, I didn't respond because it wasn't the place for discussion. I only wound up responding because I didn't want you to keep reposting it. Next time just make a thread like this instead of getting passive aggressive. That sort of "give your rating" thread usually isn't the place for discussing those ratings, for some reason.

[Nameschonvergeben]

When you say you have to do "risky high speed micrododging" to kill familiars I kinda doubt it's worth it in that case because keines spells are really not very hard and most of the time if you know what you're doing. (maybe her midbossspell is a bit dense at some places but not too bad) I guess when you kill the familiars before the attack starts that might make them a bit easier, but by no means is it important to be able to kill them and I don't think the difference for a single familiar is that big anyways.

Staying focused on reimus nons is not very hard. I guess when you're not familiar with them it's more comfortable to be able to unfocus freely.

On Reisens second non it might actually be a somewhat big deal. I remember that like 1/10 times it would feel impossible to me when it had 4 familiars. However sakuya is actually able to kill 2 familiars very quickly (relative to how slowly she kills one) which means that you don't actually have to be unfocused for that long to make the attack completely trivial afterwards (idk how good youmu and marisa are at killing a second familiar)

On Kags third spell killing the familiars seems a lot more difficult than just capping the spell to me. The spell probably dies quicker than the familiars

Overall I guess you can kill all familiars that are essential with sakuya (ephmerality 137, keine nons) but there are some you can't kill that make it slightly easier.

btw, my argument is not that scarlet team is the best shot, I know they have quite a few weaknesses. I was just confused about having trouble with not being able to kill familiars

[TresserT]

To be honest, your arguments about spells being "easy enough that killing familiars isn't important" isn't a great one. I mean, IN is usually considered one of the easier games in the series. With your "it's already easy so why bother making it easier" argment, you could say that about any strategy in the game. Why bother going high on the screen for Invisible Full Moon? It's pretty easy just microdoging the rings at the bottom. Why bother killing the familiars on Astronomical Entombing? It isn't that hard a spell without killing them, tbh. Why bother trying to gather items? The game is easy enough to clear without going out of your way to get extends. Uh... I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just saying that part of your argument is kind of unfair.

Now, as for Kaguya's 3rd spell, you're saying it's easier to just stream than to try and kill the familiars. Personally I find it to be the opposite, but again I'm used to Youmu who can kill the familiars almost before the bullets reach her.

For Keine's spells it isn't always worth it for the Ghost team. Tbh, it might be better to just not worry about the familiars and dodge with Yuyuko. However, the thing is, Yuyuko is a lot slower than Remilia. Again, maybe it's just because I'm not used to playing with her, but with Remilia it feels like "risky high speed micrododging", and since you can't quickly kill the familiars she has to do it for the entire spell (as opposed to just a few seconds with Youmu or Marisa).

As for Reimu's nons, I will completely admit that I was wrong. In the case of Reimu's 4th, Remilia's speed actually helps a lot. With Yuyuko it is hard to stay focused because she moves so slowly. I guess I was having so much trouble because I only know strategies for the Ghost (and a few for the Border) teams, and those strategies don't work for the Scarlets. I tried your suggestion staying focused for the entire non with Remilia and it was so much easier.

I've never liked the Scarlets so I don't play them often. Some of my problems probably come just from the fact that I don't know the best strategies for using them XP

[TresserT]

Double posting because this is unrelated to the previous conversation (but still related to the topic).

So why do people dislike Reimu C in MoF so much? She's a typical shot gunning type a la EoSD Reimu B. Most patterns in MoF give you a long window at the start to shot gun if you try to.

[Serela]

Maybe a second of shotgunning, but then you're shunned to the bottom inch of the screen on most boss attacks, which puts her into her lowest damage bracket- where ReimuB does literally almost double her damage. (60% of reimuB)

The last card of the game, by itself, is likely to consume multiple more lives because you have to dodge it almost twice as long (and that extra time is all during the phase where it's already ramped up to full danger, it's easy at the start); and that one definitely has no notable shotgunning to begin with.

[ZM]

Double posting because this is unrelated to the previous conversation (but still related to the topic).

So why do people dislike Reimu C in MoF so much? She's a typical shot gunning type a la EoSD Reimu B. Most patterns in MoF give you a long window at the start to shot gun if you try to.

Even when she's not shotgunning, EoSD!ReimuB is still powerful from a distance and gets the job done.
MoF!ReimuC is weak as shit and she won't do much shotgunning, anyway, hence she she's disliked.

[TableCloth]

The problem with MoF!ReimuC is that shotgunning is generally difficult in MoF aside for Easy & Normal Aya's first spell and, to some extent, Easy & Normal Kanako's 2nd non. You can try shotgunning Hard/Lunatic Kanako on her 3rd spell, but it just doesn't mix well with Reimu's slower speed. Personally, I think Marisa A is better by several margin because she is very versatile compared to... well, every other shottype in the game, and her damage is at least not as laughable

Just throwing my two cents and a little bit of personal opinion

[Serela]

MoF!MariA isn't a bad shot, it's just that most people dislike the gimmick and it's slightly underwhelming overall, plus you've got MariC instead for lock-on stage coverage and she does it overwhelmingly better... in exchange for being a little more difficult to use. (One person complained that her frostthrowers don't immediately reposition when unfocusing, but that's what saves the shot, really; if you have to unfocus you can do it for a moment without losing all your damage vs. boss attacks or messing up stage positioning trying to PoC or something)

I like MoF!MariA but I do realize that there's... not much advantage to using her. But, I really like Marisa's bomb damage (about 30% more than Reimu, which makes a big difference in ending spellcards you had to bomb on) and MariB is bugged, so it's either full-gimmick with MariC or her.

[TableCloth]

MoF!MariC is very good indeed. If only there were no Nitori and Stage 4, I would've used her more often

Either way, I can't wait to vote for SA shottypes~

[ZM]

Sanae: 9/10
I don't get why people are hating on Sanae. The fact that there's no focused homing is aleviated by Sanae's massive spread, incredibly useful for this game. Not a full 10/10 because of the focused shot missing sometimes, though.

No one's hating on her, but she really is the most underwhelming shot-type in the game. Sanae's spread isn't particularly too useful in this game, and even though it does indeed have its uses, Reimu's homing and Youmu's slashes are better for stages compared to the spread. There's also the fact that she has the weakest shot in the game, and even though she does indeed gain trances the fastest, that hardly even matters when shotgunning for trances since the other three shots are so much better at it.

Come to think of it, I should've added in a rule forbidding the 'I can't use this shot well, so it must be bad' mindset. :v

[Zigzagwolf]

No one's hating on her, but she really is the most underwhelming shot-type in the game. Sanae's spread isn't particularly too useful in this game, and even though it does indeed have its uses, Reimu's homing and Youmu's slashes are better for stages compared to the spread. There's also the fact that she has the weakest shot in the game, and even though she does indeed gain trances the fastest, that hardly even matters when shotgunning for trances since the other three shots are so much better at it.

Come to think of it, I should've added in a rule forbidding the 'I can't use this shot well, so it must be bad' mindset. :v

To each their opinions; corresponding discussions after, I don't think such a rule would work well in the end since I think most people may not be quite informed but think they'd be, little tough to monitor that.

As for trances, she's actually getting them as fast as Reimu due to the poor damage; thus spirit output she gets.

Coming back to the IN Sakuya discussion, we had a bit of a talk about this on Skype as far as I do remember NC (maybe I should tag you here, if you don't see this I could perhaps poke you, I guess.) Although I ended up agreeing that Sakuya kills familars fine enough, it generally (not always) takes longer than most human shots. Now back then I mainly argued this could be problematic during a solo run, I feel like I could argue that the power is a bit on the low end too. Probably fine enough for stages. I can imagine familars in something like Kaguya's second non are a bit hard to kill, but my thoughts are no shot kills them before 1/2 waves; that it doesn't matter much either. I still wonder wether the shot being spread would be more beneficial in comparison with other shots, atleast due to the damage output. In the end my main concern lies in how long it takes to kill a familar so you could hit an enemy/boss in which I believe other shots (generally, not always.) had the overhand due to a bigger damage output. Must be mentioned but I am not sure as to shotgunning either. I know the discussion was a while ago on Skype, but I hope this clarified my thoughtprocess better now since I am not exactly sure wether I explained this well back then. If there're questions I'd be more than glad to answer them.

Also this was written on my mobile, my finger hurts now.

[ZM]

To each their opinions; corresponding discussions after, I don't think such a rule would work well in the end since I think most people may not be quite informed but think they'd be, little tough to monitor that.

As for trances, she's actually getting them as fast as Reimu due to the poor damage; thus spirit output she gets.

It wouldn't be that tough. Any rating that grants a shot a rating based on 'I can't use this very well, so it must be bad' without even so much as listing positives of the shot would be scrapped.

That's true, but as stated before, Sanae's basically an inferior Reimu in this game.

[Zigzagwolf]

It wouldn't be that tough. Any rating that grants a shot a rating based on 'I can't use this very well, so it must be bad' without even so much as listing positives of the shot would be scrapped.

That's true, but as stated before, Sanae's basically an inferior Reimu in this game.

If it simply holds itself then I guess that would be fine, my main thought was that if someone does not mention they cannot use well, it would be hard to say even if the reasoning as to why has not made sense. But I suppose asking for positives to say the least makes it easier to overlook and frankly enough, reasonable too.

Yep, she's a poor man's Reimu. Never denied that too :p. Thing is if both end up shotgunning I think Reimu would get the spirits faster, Sanae's damage output is also bad to the degree of having tougher stage portions than Reimu. (Granted, Reimu's are quite simplistic to start with.)

I could mention more reasonings but will work on a post in the ratingsthread later today if I don't forget.

[ZM]

If it simply holds itself then I guess that would be fine, my main thought was that if someone does not mention they cannot use well, it would be hard to say even if the reasoning as to why has not made sense. But I suppose asking for positives to say the least makes it easier to overlook and frankly enough, reasonable too.

Yep, she's a poor man's Reimu. Never denied that too :p. Thing is if both end up shotgunning I think Reimu would get the spirits faster, Sanae's damage output is also bad to the degree of having tougher stage portions than Reimu. (Granted, Reimu's are quite simplistic to start with.)

I could mention more reasonings but will work on a post in the ratingsthread later today if I don't forget.

Agreed.

Don't forget! Sadly there's no infinite penetration...

[TresserT]

I don't how she does in scoring, I'd assume she really would just be a weaker version of Reimu, but for survival Reimu's auto-collect ability prevents her from chain trancing. Also, since Reimu's bomb explodes after dealing X amount of damage (rather than staying active for X amount of time) it doesn't always clear bullets for all the invincibility frames (so it's riskier to try to shotgun for the entire bomb). In fact, if you try to shotgun the boss it'll end faster. Plus Reimu's bomb is just shorter than Sanae's anyway.

Since Marisa's bomb slows you down, you can't shotgun there either unless you're already right next to the boss when you bomb. Sanae and Marisa still get a pretty close number of trances since Marisa deals more damage.

So Sanae gets way more trances than Reimu. She's got a wide spread shot where Marisa does not. Because of her other flaws like abysmal damage she's not really better than the other 2, but it's not like she's got nothing over them.

She's mostly the go to character if you like to bomb/trance spam.

[Karisa]

She's mostly the go to character if you like to bomb/trance spam.

Really? I'd rather use Marisa. Marisa deals noticeably more damage than Sanae per bomb (as long as it's a planned bomb, as in starting close to the boss), so she gets a lot of spirits per bomb, which at least partly (if not fully) counteracts Sanae's ~1.2x trance gauge filling. (Sanae gets 3+3 per blue-gray spirit pair while others get 2+3, after the first 9 blue spirits in the chain that don't spawn a gray spirit.)

I think Youmu's bomb does more damage too, though I don't have as much experience with her, and she takes more memorization to chain stages so she's not the obvious choice to XXC the game. Marisa's and Youmu's trances are both more powerful than Sanae's for sure, though, which means more damage per trance as well as per bomb.

[TresserT]

Really? I'd rather use Marisa. Marisa deals noticeably more damage than Sanae per bomb (as long as it's a planned bomb, as in starting close to the boss), so she gets a lot of spirits per bomb, which at least partly (if not fully) counteracts Sanae's ~1.2x trance gauge filling. (Sanae gets 3+3 per blue-gray spirit pair while others get 2+3, after the first 9 blue spirits in the chain that don't spawn a gray spirit.)

True, that was just bad wording on my part. Sanae and Marisa are both good for bomb/trance spamming. Sanae still has a better spread, a smaller hitbox, and is slower. And you don't have to plan her bombs as much- if you mess up and have to death bomb you can go up and shotgun the enemy for tons of spirits, whereas with Marisa you really have to think ahead.

Reimu isn't good at bomb/trance spam cause of the stuff I said, Youmu is stronger but she can't shotgun for spirits as easily (because her slashes spawn slightly in front of her) and she can't chain trances (because she has to be next to the enemy for her trance to be useful).

Again not that I think Sanae is better than anyone else, but it's not like she has nothing over them...

[Sakurei]

Youmu is stronger but she can't shotgun for spirits as easily (because her slashes spawn slightly in front of her) and she can't chain trances (because she has to be next to the enemy for her trance to be useful).

Oh boy are you wrong. For starters, you don't shotgun with the focused slash on Youmu. You do it unfocused, which of course makes it harder but not per se worse than Reimu or Marisa. Youmu can even shotgun from on top of the boss, which only Reimu can as well. Furthermore, she doesn't have to be right up in the enemies's face to deal damage. Chaining trances with Youmu is just as possible as with Sanae or Marisa. The slash in her trance has a much larger range than you seem to think: It basically reaches both edges of the screen if you just sit in the middle. That's something the other shots can't do and it's very nice to have for stage 4, for example.

[Nolegs the Cat]

The slash in his trance has a much larger range than you seem to think

 :smokedcheese:

And I'd argue Reimu still has the easiest/simplest lunatic 1cc overall because her shot is simple and can do everything fairly well. I don't find Sanae gets that many more trances than Reimu unless you bomb spam for spirits. -shrug-
I don't find the auto-collecting spirits _that_ annoying really, outside of a few specific parts (end of stage 4, stage 6). You can get more easily enough even without bomb spam early on, and often you'd be better presssed spending it to get more resources anyway meaning you'd be entering Futo, Kyouko and Seiga with no trance regardless.

But on the other hand that doesn't mean she's the best shot-type, just the easiest to use and good at what she does.

For scoring on the otherhand it's a very different matter.

[TresserT]

Since Youmu's options trail it means you have to not only play unfocus right next to the boss in order to shotgun, you also have to arrange the options so that they're under the boss too.
Plus that high risk style of gameplay doesn't even have a huge reward here; sure you get more spirits, but why bother when you could kill the pattern in half the time with Youmu's slash?
Like, why would you play Youmu like that? I think Youmu is better than Marisa/Sanae for other reasons, but if you want to shotgun like that why would you use Youmu instead of Marisa/Sanae?
So I guess I am technically wrong- it'd probably be better for me to say "Youmu can chain trances as much as Marisa/Sanae, but it's really impractical and not the most effective way to play her"

As for the wide trance slash, her lack of vertical range still means she has to be closer to enemies in order to hurt them. Yes, you can sit in the middle and kill most enemies coming from the side. But if you move around too much, you'll still wind up collecting stray spirits. Plus she still has to be right next to enemies spawning from the top.

Also, what I said in the first place was "Sanae is just a crappy version of Reimu if you ignore bomb/trance. But she's really good if you like to bomb/trance spam."

For Reimu's trancing, it really isn't that big a deal. If you plan well you can get a few more bombs and maybe an extra life with the other characters. The few less trances are also not that huge. It just means you can't cheese quite as many patterns. That said, while Reimu is a better shot than Marisa/Sanae, it's not like she's that much better. Reimu's slightly more versatile shot is offset by slightly fewer resources/trances (and in Marisa's case less power).

[ZM]

Plus that high risk style of gameplay doesn't even have a huge reward here; sure you get more spirits, but why bother when you could kill the pattern in half the time with Youmu's slash?
Like, why would you play Youmu like that? I think Youmu is better than Marisa/Sanae for other reasons, but if you want to shotgun like that why would you use Youmu instead of Marisa/Sanae?

For scoring.

One has to shotgun a hell of a ton in TD scoring for spirits at many opportunities, so...

[TresserT]

For scoring.

One has to shotgun a hell of a ton in TD scoring for spirits at many opportunities, so...

Oh XD I guess I stand corrected, then. I don't know anything about that haha...

[ZM]

Oh XD I guess I stand corrected, then. I don't know anything about that haha...

XD No worries. The thing with TD is that it's all about trancing and trancing, which is why Youmu dominates the most while Sanae falls behind, even though she has the enhanced trance gain. She's so significantly weaker compared to the other three that the ability doesn't give her an advantage during bosses, and stages drop enough spirits for the shots to get full trance back anyway (at the end of Stage 4, for example).

[Sen]

So last week in the shot type ranking thread, multiple people brought up that from TD onwards, Marisa's lasers don't pierce anymore. So my question is, outside of UFO, was piercing a big draw for Marisa users? Did the loss of piercing make her a worse character, in your mind, and was it worth the increase in spread she has now?

Obviously her piercing was best utilized in UFO, where you could shoot down UFOs to gain resources/clear the screen regardless of how many enemies were in your way. Was it particularly useful in any other situation?

[ZM]

EoSD: A bit useful, but not majorly. Annoying how MarisaB's lasers disappeared from time to time.

PCB: MarisaB's laser does a lot of damage to Yuyuko and her fan, but other than that...

IN: Alice sucks.

MoF: Piercing doesn't save MarisaB from being an inferior ReimuB. It doesn't even have a use in this game.

SA: ReimuB's the one with piercing this time around, but it's only marginally useful in a couple areas.

So...not really. XD

[TresserT]

Piercing was never especially useful except in UFO. In most games it helped in one or two spots. Most of the time forward focus can melt through enemies quickly enough that it doesn't matter.
In EoSD piercing was good in stage 4, but Marisa B's main appeal was the bomb.
Same in PCB but for stage 3.
Alice is among the worst shots in the series.
Piercing in MoF has one spot in stage 3 where it's kind of helpful.
SA Suika has several useful spots in stages 4 and 5, but Yukari plays the same way and is just plain better. Those few spots where Suika's better don't make up for the dozens of times where she struggles but Yukari does fine.

It's just, even now Marisa's unfocus shot is still pretty narrow.  She lost her piercing in exchange for a slightly-not-really-much wider shot that's still never as good as Reimu/Sakuya/Sanae's.

So basically, piercing was never that useful but it did have it's moments. And now she's lost it and she didn't really get anything in exchange.

[Serela]

In terms of piercing, IN Malice Cannon actually hurts familiars with Alice's laser and the piercing is actually... pretty nice there. Familiar slaughtering (plus still hurting the boss in addition to familiar shared pain, which adds up to pretty major damage in some cases) is Malice Cannon's main useful feature, not having slightly more damage than everyone else.

Although Alice herself is of course abysmal outside of Malice, and Magic Team still isn't necessarily worth using since it has no range, nor any good survivability features, and isn't any stronger than others unless you're malice'ing.

Apart from that, UFO is the only game where the piercing really... does anything.

[ZM]

Also Reisen's piercing in LoLK is pretty useless, as well. XD
She kills Sagume a bit faster than everyone else but still lol