Powercreep and Dragons Thread XXVII: Making Juggler less OP all day everyday

[Espadas]

I'm seriously struggling to figure out who gets my plus eggs here. I'm guessing just my AYomi team since I'm severely underwhelmed by ALuci...

Why do you feel like that for A.Luci? From everything i've seen he is one of the best leaders right now....

[OverlordChirei]

Why do you feel like that for A.Luci? From everything i've seen he is one of the best leaders right now....

if you have the whale subs*

[The Greatest Dog]

He lacks a lot of punching power. The x4.05 multiplier on making a row is good, and the balance of HP and RCV boosts is probably what makes him great.

But he needs a lot of good subs to pull weight. Lucifer won't make a lot of dark orbs nor will he do it very quickly. He doesn't have hastes, so you will have to eat some hits between your subs recharging.

That is my experience with him so far. He's alright.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

I honestly think awoken Pandora pulls her weight better, at least for my box. It would just be a matter of choosing Yomi Dragon sans bonuses or sleeping beauty.

[commandercool]

Awoken Pandora is definitely bordering real close on just being a way better NepDra. I'd be interested to see a breakdown of how they compare.

[Suikama]

Did some more inheritance theorycraft.

RaDra should actually be able to consistently farm Arena 2 PROVIDED THAT YOU CAN INHERIT ZEUS&HERA.

Both Ilsix and Kalis can be easily handled with Z&H actives and adding Orochi active onto Isis give back 100% skill lock resist and bind immunity.

Then pretty much every spawn can be handled. Delay takes care of Vishnu & PreDras/Piis. Shield tanks DA premptive and can also be used more liberally to save your ass since you don't need to block a Kali hit. Skill delays can be blocked by putting Kalis on Kalis lol. And you won't even need to care about latents anymore outside of some wood for Parvati.

Unfortunately gungho didnt tell us shit last stream because yamap thought that 23 free stones would be enough to keep everyone happy (meanwhile in na)

[OverlordChirei]

Skill delays can be blocked by putting Kalis on Kalis lol.

How does this stop skill delay?

[Suikama]

It totally depends on how it works, but seeing as how the skills basically seem to share a cooldown bar (since using one active puts everyone back to 0 and when the second active is charged you cant use the first), if you have both skilled charged, then a skill delay only shaves cooldown from your second skill.

Or maybe they don't share and skill delay affects both skills, which means we get the worse of all possibilities of how this mechanic could work thanks gungho

[Espadas]

Awoken Pandora is definitely bordering real close on just being a way better NepDra. I'd be interested to see a breakdown of how they compare.

Can't give you a comparison with NepDra, but this guy wrote one with A.Lucifer (not to mention an impressive analysis of the latter).

https://mischiefy1pad.wordpress.com/2016/02/12/thoughts-on-awoken-pandora/

Short version: with the right (whale  :V) subs both are reliable while punching faces, Lucifer is more tanky, Pandora hits like The Hulk in a bad mood.....

[Suikama]

oh boy i could actually make a pretty pandora te-

>AKECHI AKECHI AKECHI AKECHI

nevermind

[Mr. Sacchi]

idk, my idea for a Pandora team is basically, "Pandora/Pandora/Persephone/Persephone/Grape Dragon"

suboptimal? Yes, but i'm pretty sure it can stand up to most content just fine.

[Suikama]

oh wtf my fire box is actually really good too lmao

i kind of forget my other teams cause of ra dra :derp:

but yeah i got freyr, leilan, belail, scarlet, Uriel, ronia, pheonix rider, mamiya, a hino

doesn't someone use Roah here :derp:


on second though jesus belail needs a lot of skillups wtf ._.

[The Greatest Dog]

doesn't someone use Roah here :derp:

Hi.

[hyorinryu]

oh boy i could actually make a pretty pandora te-

>AKECHI AKECHI AKECHI AKECHI

nevermind

I could make those teams minus Pandora. I might just use Beach Valkyrie instead.

Hi.

What latents do you like on Raoh?

[OverlordChirei]

Hi.

that's Raoh not Roah gtfo

[The Greatest Dog]

I have two ATK boost latents on him because poverty options and I don't have room for latentdra in my box. But apparently 2x skill delay resist is popular for reasons.

[trancehime]

Awoken Pandora is definitely bordering real close on just being a way better NepDra. I'd be interested to see a breakdown of how they compare.

Not... really? Awoken Pandora is tankier but Nepdra still does more damage because x36

[commandercool]

Not... really? Awoken Pandora is tankier but Nepdra still does more damage because x36

Nepdra has x36 and a more rows typically, so he hits way harder for sure. But much of NepDra's damage is often overkill damage at maximum modifier. I don't think he almost ever needs to get to 36x unless he's fighting a bulky wood enemy, and Pandora is unresistable. Her skill is way more relevant, she doesn't have his problem with low skillboosts, and she has pretty similar stats. Her sub pool is a bit more restricted, but I can count the number of times in the game NepDra needs to get to x36 on one hand and having way more HP matters in basically every turn of every dungeon. His skill has some interesting and unique uses certainly, but I would trade it for a an orbchange in a second.  Pandora can also trigger on fewer orbs and her modifier is better than his at his minimum.

[Suikama]

there's no such thing as overkill until you can burst for 50 mil now :V

also his active is a 2 turn haste which effectively gives you more orb changing

[commandercool]

I don't know how to do the breakdown on whether two-turn haste on a 16 cooldown or a double orbchanger with one turn has on a nine turn cooldown is "more orbchanging", but my money's on Pandora.

And given that NepDra also can't do 50 million (well, maybe with a damage enhance) at that point the better team is the one that can survive long enough to hit again.

[Suikama]

The thing with haste is it restores ALL your other skills, while another pandora is just 1 more skill, so you actually get more out of neptune

eg. NepDra + 4 8-turn orb changers + Nepdra is 8 back to back orb changes

Pandora + 4 orb changers + pandora is only 6

[commandercool]

Right, I gotcha, but Awoken Pandora also has haste, right? If at least two of those orbchangers are 5-turn ones she can also go at least 8 consecutive turns can't she?

[Suikama]

i forgot pandora had haste, but the point is you were underrating haste :V


the poison is good too since gungho has a fetish for sticking predras into everything now

[trancehime]

Nepdra has x36 and a more rows typically, so he hits way harder for sure. But much of NepDra's damage is often overkill damage at maximum modifier. I don't think he almost ever needs to get to 36x unless he's fighting a bulky wood enemy, and Pandora is unresistable.

Pandora is unresistable until you remember that GungHo loves to put in enemies with Dark absorb because FUCK YOUJ

Also like Suikama mentions, GungHo also love to shove in Predras into fucking everything INCLUDING Arena 2.0 so having to either waste a spot for a poison/true damage or praying to RNG god your Grisar can do 10M+ damage on burst w/ A.Loki is not always sound

It's not like Nepdra has bad RCV or HP either

[commandercool]

It's not that I don't like Haste, it's just that I don't love extremely slow actives on my spike teams. I don't know what other NepDra teams look like, but mine has way too few skillboosts relative to how painfully slow NepDra's active is. I'd rather have moderately fast actives with moderate haste than very slow actives with a lot of haste.

I'll give you that one poison is occasionally extremely useful, but two poisons is almost always unnecessary. Sure, one is necessary for some dungeons. But Neptune is forced to run two and has four slots for his remaining actives, even if he does let them be up more often because of Haste. Quite a few of those four slots will need to be orbchanges. But since Pandora is an orbchange she can stock a poison and two more orbchanges and she'll already have as many as NepDra can have even if he forgoes all other utility effects with room for a shield or a bind clear or something.

It's also possibly that my NepDra team is just trash. Maybe if I had higher-HP subs I wouldn't have such a fixation on wanting more HP. But the way I see it Neptune Dragon has three major problems: Insufficient HP, too slow for lack of skillboosts and a slow active, and is one of the shit colors and therefore can be resisted. Pandora has none of those problems. I mean, I'm going to try her when she comes out, I do have one (although I don't have anything close to perfect subs for her) so I can see for myself where she falls short. But right now NepDra looks like an almost-perfect team with a few crippling shortcomings and she seems to have none of them.

Pandora is unresistable until you remember that GungHo loves to put in enemies with Dark absorb because FUCK YOUJ

Also like Suikama mentions, GungHo also love to shove in Predras into fucking everything INCLUDING Arena 2.0 so having to either waste a spot for a poison/true damage or praying to RNG god your Grisar can do 10M+ damage on burst w/ A.Loki is not always sound

It's not like Nepdra has bad RCV or HP either

Keep in mind that Gungho also likes to put color resist out for things that are naturally resistable anyway (Awoken Shiva). Sure a handful of things artificially resist black and white, relevant things even, but 20% of the game naturally resist blue, quite a few of which are relevant, with some extra "fuck you"s on top of that.

As for subs, I guess I can't really comment on optimal teams for either of them. I own literally zero of those subs. Maybe NepDra's weaknesses can be covered with an absolutely perfect team, but Pandora doesn't need that to have solid stats and presumably has even better stats once she does.

[trancehime]

I'll give you that one poison is occasionally extremely useful, but two poisons is almost always unnecessary. Sure, one is necessary for some dungeons. But Neptune is forced to run two and has four slots for his remaining actives, even if he does let them be up more often because of Haste. Quite a few of those four slots will need to be orbchanges. But since Pandora is an orbchange she can stock a poison and two more orbchanges and she'll already have as many as NepDra can have even if he forgoes all other utility effects with room for a shield or a bind clear or something.

Then just run Nepdra + Andromeda, it accomplishes pretty much the same thing? You're not forced to always run Nepdra with himself, it just works for things like Zaerog8 Mythical Plus where you do actually need 2 poisons to run it quickly (1 for Predras, 1 for Zaerog8 floor 10). One of Blue's big deal is that it has a lot of mix-friendly leads, I&I+Ryune, Blonia+Ryune, Nepdra+Andro, etc. It's very easy to mix and match leads.

As for Awoken Pandora, her sub pool is pretty much limited to herself, Akechi, D/D Haku and Grisar (optionally Zaerog8 if you want skyfalls); it's painfully small though you could slot in stuff like Lilith for poison, A.FA Luci for true damage, and such. And of course if Awoken Persephone is Devil we can put her in too. Nepdra's sub pool is way bigger than Pandora cause he doesn't care as much about typing. I own pretty much everything meta right now so I've had some time to really experiment and build.

[hyorinryu]

I'm not sure I'd consider a Neptune Dragon a spike team in the traditional sense. Usually spike teams are pretty glass and have a hard time tanking stuff.  However, Neptune teams can go 20k+ and 5k RCV with only the leads egged, so he can tank stuff pretty well. Between that and the fact his active reduces cooldowns, he can accommodate heavy long cooldown actives pretty well.

[commandercool]

Then just run Nepdra + Andromeda, it accomplishes pretty much the same thing? You're not forced to always run Nepdra with himself, it just works for things like Zaerog8 Mythical Plus where you do actually need 2 poisons to run it quickly (1 for Predras, 1 for Zaerog8 floor 10). One of Blue's big deal is that it has a lot of mix-friendly leads, I&I+Ryune, Blonia+Ryune, Nepdra+Andro, etc. It's very easy to mix and match leads.

As for Awoken Pandora, her sub pool is pretty much limited to herself, Akechi, D/D Haku and Grisar (optionally Zaerog8 if you want skyfalls); it's painfully small though you could slot in stuff like Lilith for poison, A.FA Luci for true damage, and such. And of course if Awoken Persephone is Devil we can put her in too. Nepdra's sub pool is way bigger than Pandora cause he doesn't care as much about typing. I own pretty much everything meta right now so I've had some time to really experiment and build.

Like I said, the way I see it NepDra has three major problems, at least the way I can run him. Lack of HP, slow, and is blue. That's not even including the lesser problem of weird utility because of his bizarre active. Pairing with Andro doesn't solve the HP problem (although it doesn't get much worse either because she has pretty solid HP, at least in her upcoming form), doesn't solve the speed problem since she still only has one skillboost (although it helps since she has a faster active), and doesn't solve the unsolvable color problem (which is mostly just me being bitter and probably not the biggest hurdle the team needs to deal with). It's worth looking into though, I'll give it a try sometime soon.

As for Pandora's subs, does she really not run Hanzo and Claire? I know they have bad HP, but she has good HP and an HP boost, so it seems like it should even out.

I'm not sure I'd consider a Neptune Dragon a spike team in the traditional sense. Usually spike teams are pretty glass and have a hard time tanking stuff.  However, Neptune teams can go 20k+ and 5k RCV with only the leads egged, so he can tank stuff pretty well. Between that and the fact his active reduces cooldowns, he can accommodate heavy long cooldown actives pretty well.

That's definitely true to a significant degree. But as someone who runs a lot of stall, if I want a stall lead I'm just going to pick a stall lead. I'd call him a spike lead that can stall under some circumstances, not a stall lead that can spike. Either way he's non-traditional, but there's way too much he can't tank for me to be really comfortable stalling with him. But again, maybe my team is just trash. Maybe that isn't a problem other people have.

[Suikama]

all my love of monster strike is gone thanks to yamato takeru

holy fuck this is the most bullshit thing ever

also monstrikes' friends list is 100% useless garbage I keep having to run random crap because RNG does want me to get actually useful friends up

basically thier motto is LOCAL COOP OR GET FUCKED

[trancehime]

Like I said, the way I see it NepDra has three major problems, at least the way I can run him. Lack of HP, slow, and is blue. That's not even including the lesser problem of weird utility because of his bizarre active. Pairing with Andro doesn't solve the HP problem (although it doesn't get much worse either because she has pretty solid HP, at least in her upcoming form), doesn't solve the speed problem since she still only has one skillboost (although it helps since she has a faster active), and doesn't solve the unsolvable color problem (which is mostly just me being bitter and probably not the biggest hurdle the team needs to deal with). It's worth looking into though, I'll give it a try sometime soon.

As for Pandora's subs, does she really not run Hanzo and Claire? I know they have bad HP, but she has good HP and an HP boost, so it seems like it should even out.

OK, I forgot about Claire since both versions are fucking rare to get (I have 2 Beach Claires but 0 regular Claires...) but Hanzo's HP is just impossible to salvage, unless he gets a major HP buff. Even Hatsume has way more HP than him. Also x30.00 with a billion rows is enough that you don't rally need to worry about colour resistance...

That's definitely true to a significant degree. But as someone who runs a lot of stall, if I want a stall lead I'm just going to pick a stall lead. I'd call him a spike lead that can stall under some circumstances, not a stall lead that can spike. Either way he's non-traditional, but there's way too much he can't tank for me to be really comfortable stalling with him. But again, maybe my team is just trash. Maybe that isn't a problem other people have.

I noticed you barely have any Blue Physicals so that might be a thing.