So I made an off-hand thought about Touhou's 'main character'.

[Ghaleon]

Everyone knows it's Reimu, and Marisa is like...she's like... more than a sidekick, but not quite as definite a main character as Reimu. Not really sure how to describe her.
But why?

Sure, reimu was the only playable character for the first 2 pc-98 games, but that's it... The first of which has barely any recognition at all, and the 2nd, has virtually none other than Mima fanboys, references to mima fanboys, and this forum's reference to Rika, and I don't think I've ever bumped into a reference to Rika anywhere else. Ever since then, Marisa has been the other playable character! (except when Reimu hasn't been either, like with double spoiler, the aya game before it (brain fart, forgot the name.. supernatural phenominon? or is that the fighting game? gah), cirno's game (which has more marisa than reimu but I digress), etc.

Am I missing why Reimu is considered a main character more than Marisa other than those 2 games which everywhere else seem not to even count? I know Marisa isn't forgotten or overlooked or anything, everyone knows and respects her status in the Touhou universe, but she's still noticeably less than Reimu IMO, and when looking at my train of thought above, I don't really know why. I don't follow the manga or anything so maybe it's obvious there, I'm asking more than trying to challenge anyone.

[Jeremie]

Marisa seems to bring more of a human element to the series in the ways she deal with the characters she encounters but Reimu tends to connect more to the setting because of her role and duty in Gensokyo. Things gets a bit more hazy within the games because all the playable characters takes part in each of the stories but I'd say Reimu's endings also typically stays more on topic with the main plots of the games. Marisa and Reimu also share a lot of time in the books to the point they're often teaming up together but another thing that typically happens is that Marisa serves to convey information to the reader or set up the story while Reimu often has to deal with trying to solve incidents, deal with human villager/youkai politics or even more serious and dramatic situations.

I believe the right term for Marisa would be "Deuteragonist".

[Clarste]

For the record, neither Reimu or Marisa are the primary viewpoint characters of the various manga.

Reimu is the main character and Marisa is the other main character. It's not much, but that subtle "other" seems to be what you're taking issue with. Why does Reimu's name come first, if they're both main characters? I think the simplest answer is that Reimu is always placed first on the character select screen. You have to press down or sideways to reach Marisa. That's about it. As characters, they're both foils for each other.

[Ghaleon]

For the record, neither Reimu or Marisa are the primary viewpoint characters of the various manga.

Reimu is the main character and Marisa is the other main character. It's not much, but that subtle "other" seems to be what you're taking issue with. Why does Reimu's name come first, if they're both main characters? I think the simplest answer is that Reimu is always placed first on the character select screen. You have to press down or sideways to reach Marisa. That's about it. As characters, they're both foils for each other.

Is that really it? I'm honestly curious, I mean do new touhou fans feel confused over this? and/or treat them as true equals? Maybe they do and I'm mistaken but I'd be surprised (but not 'I can't belive it so'). It's not like I hate reimu or anything. In fact, one of the reasons why I never/currently liked sanae is because her arrogant attitude to reimu (IMO... not 'sanae is a slut').

oh yeah, another argument, not sure if still applicable since it's been years, but a certain password to a certain forum involved reimu and not marisa =P.

[Clarste]

I'm not sure if you're trying to argue that Marisa is not a deuteragonist or if you're complaining that she's not seen as one by the fandom. I mean there's definitely a "Player 1, Player 2" nature to their roles, and I can't comment on what a new fan might think ("obviously Cirno is the main character!"), but is that really a problem?

[Ghaleon]

I'm not sure if you're trying to argue that Marisa is not a deuteragonist or if you're complaining that she's not seen as one by the fandom. I mean there's definitely a "Player 1, Player 2" nature to their roles, and I can't comment on what a new fan might think ("obviously Cirno is the main character!"), but is that really a problem?

No? I mean no to both your first sentence and your last line? I don't think there's a 'problem' per-say either way, I just observed what I perceived to be the perception that Reimu is more the protagonist than Marisa and thought 'why', when PC98's existence is noticeably less canon, and post pc98, I can't see any canon favoritism for reimu over marisa!.. That said, in my fave Touhou annual vote thing, I actually rank Marisa higher (and that's not a surprise to me). I DO like reimu though so this isn't some kind of desperate appeal towards her either.

I suck at communication *sobs*... someone understanding help!,,'

anyway, I'm not complaining or arguing anything, just observing and wondering...why do I communicate in a way people think I'm so bad? *runs away crying*.

[Clarste]

Well, okay. I guess "off-hand thought" is in the title of the thread. I was just confused when you said "another argument" in your last post.

But yeah "canon favoritism" would probably be their relative position on the character select screen. Even moreso in ULiL, where Reimu gets both the prologue and the final route, while Marisa gets the first real route. For SoPM, Reimu was on the front cover while Marisa was on the back. Lots of little things like that. Although Marisa is usually the icon for the game itself.

[7TC7]

If you look at the icons for most of the games you will clearly notice that Marisa is the real main character of the two!  :V

[CyberAngel]

Solving incidents is Reimu's duty. Marisa just helps/steals her jobs. She doesn't have to do it, and it's plausible for her to skip taking part in some future incident. Hence that subtle difference. That's how I've always seen it, anyway.

[Ghaleon]

Well, okay. I guess "off-hand thought" is in the title of the thread. I was just confused when you said "another argument" in your last post.

No excuse! the trauma is...uhh.. traumatizing!

No seriously, title or not, my opinions on this matter are not set in stone or anything, they are very flexible and do not wish to inflict guilt on those who feel opposed to them. I merely want to increase depth to my potentially shallow interpretation upon this subject.

[Drake]

reimu is red

[Ghaleon]

reimu is red

Eff you, You of all people should say something to help me understand! *runs away crying*

[Shizzo]

There's also the fact that while Marisa appears in all games' icons, Reimu takes the entire title screen for herself.  That usually also gives in a pretty strong main-character vibe. 

And of course there's as Clarste said, the whole reason that Reimu is usually a final-boss-for-final-bosses in fighting games, and all of that. 

[TresserT]

The way I see it, Touhou isn't really "about" Reimu or Marisa. It's about Gensokyo as a whole; Japanese myths and monsters running around having pretty fights and starting shit. Kind of like how Pokemon isn't "about" the player character, it's "about" the actual Pokemon. The player is just a means of exploring that world.

So with that in mind, Marisa has little connection to the "story of Gensokyo". Marisa is just a random human who decides to resolve incidents for the hell of it. If she died I don't think much would change in Gensokyo. We'd have 1 less incident resolver.

In contrast, Reimu has been seen as a VIP since (I think) PCB. She helped create the spell card rules, she's seen as a peace keeper between humans and youkai, she maintains the Hakurei barrier which is vital for Gensokyo's existence. Reimu isn't just some random person like Marisa. Without Reimu (or some other Hakurei shrine maiden) Gensokyo would be a very different place.

Of course, the fact that they're both playable in almost every game is what makes them main characters. That's just why Reimu is the protagonist and Marisa is the deuteragonist, in my opinion.

Plus, like everyone's already said, Reimu comes first on the player select, Reimu is the final boss for final bosses, Reimu is red, etc.

[Clarste]

Well, because the story is about Gensokyo itself, the fact that Marisa isn't "important" is hardly relevant. she provides a very necessary ground-level perspective on things, relatively.

[Raikaria]

I can think of multiple reasons:

1 - Touhou 1 and 2 only have playable Reimu and are about Reimu getting to grips with her powers.

2 - It is canon that Marisa has never defeated Reimu. It's a driving point of Marisa's character and her work ethic. Reimu embodies talent; Marisa embodies hard work. Which automatically means that the Marisa route in any game where Marisa and Reimu face off is automatically non-canon. [PoDD; LLS; IN; PoFV; IMMP; SWR; HM; ULiL]. Which automatically means NotMarisa is the main character in those games.

Of course for !Marisa IN to be canon in the first place that means somehow one of Alice; Marisa; Sakuya or Remilia could cast the spell of Imperishable Night. And I highly; highly doubt Sakuya's time manipulation is that powerful that Kaguya couldn't break it with her own despite trying so hard she dies 5 times. [Yukari on the other hand...]

3 - A lot of Touhou games kick off with something happening to; or around; the Hakurei Shrine. A lot of the time Marisa either tags along or gets involved to either A: Compete with Reimu to try and one-up her; or B: Some ulterior motive. Usually magic or loot.

4 - Let's face it. Marisa kinda exists as a hard mode. The only game where the Marisa shottype isn't worse than the Reimu shottypes is EoSD; and even then ReimuA can rival MarisaB. [I think I didn't get them mixed up]. And this is because in EoSD even the forward focus shottypes cover a good portion of the screen in focused mode. [And Marisa's Christmas Trees hurt a lot; unlike in most other games where Marisa's forward focus shottypes are hardly stronger than other types... and that's if you are in position to actually hit.]

Especially in UFO onwards; where Marisa is given 'fake lasers' the Marisa shottypes have been pretty awful. In UFO Marisa is easily worse than both Reimu and Sanae shottypes. In TD Reimu and Sanae outdo her again. Marisa in DDC is just awful to the point where her fire shottype is pretty much a joke; and I find her weaker than all three other shots in LLK.

Of course; this is probobly intentional. Marisa gets where she is by hard work and is weaker than Reimu's sheer talent. This is reflected in her shottypes generally being worse [And focused around raw power/foward focus and not versatility/reliability like Reimu's shottypes] Reimu isn't always the best shottype in the game [Sanae in UFO; Sakuya in PCB is generally best for score; I personally beat IN with Scarlet first although a big part of that is me finding the Reimu fight far easier than the Marisa fight]

Generally Reimu is the easy shottype; Marisa is the hard shottype; and anyone else is the 'gimmicky' shottype that may or may not be good. I can't think of any game except maybe EoSD [Reimu A; and even then it's close] where Reimu has the worst shottype.

[PK]

2 - It is canon that Marisa has never defeated Reimu. It's a driving point of Marisa's character and her work ethic. Reimu embodies talent; Marisa embodies hard work. Which automatically means that the Marisa route in any game where Marisa and Reimu face off is automatically non-canon. [PoDD; LLS; IN; PoFV; IMMP; SWR; HM; ULiL]. Which automatically means NotMarisa is the main character in those games.

Uh? From where this comes from?

[Jeremie]

Uh? From where this comes from?

That actually sounds pretty dubious. I remember reading the opposite (about Marisa being able to win VS. Reimu every once in a while) at some point but I wouldn't be able to give a source.

VS. games pretty much makes it very clear that Reimu can be defeated, has been defeated and if one wanted to say they're not canon stories (even though they clearly are canon), one of the 3 faeries books has a chapter that links to the events of 12.8 and it's mentioned that Reimu indeed gets hit by faeries. ZUN has also apparently said that the characters do get defeated by their opponents... but much like the player, they just keep coming back until they win since the opponent won't try again once they're defeated.  :3

[TresserT]

Wasn't that part of the point of the spell card rules anyway...? It makes it possible to beat people like Reimu/Yukari. If they were unbeatable, there'd be no point in it anyway =P

[Tengukami]

Reimu's importance as the main protag of Touhou hinges not only on her being the first choice in any of the games, but also in her association with the barrier surrounding Gensokyo that bears her surname and makes Gensokyo's existence possible. I think this has instilled in fans a great sense of her historical importance to Gensokyo overall.

And I, too, would like a source backing up the claim that Marisa has canonically never defeated Reimu; that even in Imperishable Night, it wasn't Marisa who defeated Reimu but some kind of non-Marisa impostor.

[haoreos2]

Curiosities of Lotus Asia, chapter 3 seems to disagree with the idea of Reimu having a perfect record against Marisa:
"Their duels are always a study in contrast. Against the gung-ho Marisa, Reimu ? either on purpose or naturally ? fights in a more laid-back style. The duels mostly go Reimu's way, but Marisa doesn't always lose. It's just that Marisa attacks with all her skill and might against Reimu, who looks just like she was made of air; it's like trying to pound a nail into dust."



Rather than why she is considered the protagonist, I think the real question is why Reimu moves slower when she wears red, while faster characters wear not-red. It don't make no sense.

[Prime32]

Rather than why she is considered the protagonist, I think the real question is why Reimu moves slower when she wears red, while faster characters wear not-red. It don't make no sense.

Because when you upgrade a red unit to make it faster, it turns blue. Marisa sometimes wears blue.

[Tengukami]

Reimu only appears red because of how fast she's moving relative to our location. It's physics. Look it up if you don't believe me.

[Hope ♦ Metal]

Red isn't Speed it's Power.

[haoreos2]

Red isn't Speed it's Power.

I believe a good number of twelve year old race car enthusiasts and orks would disagree with that, as well as the Yakumo clan.

Reimu only appears red because of how fast she's moving relative to our location. It's physics. Look it up if you don't believe me.

I see, I see, so she is moving away from our perspective, causing red shifting? But she is maintaining the same visual size, which must mean she is also growing at a proportionate rate?

This checks out; stuff does tend to grow when it turns red. Her damage would also naturally increase, but since her opponents don't also red shift, that must mean they're further away, so her bullets lose momentum covering the extra distance and end up inflicting the same damage in the end. Makes sense.

[Reu]

Everyone knows it's Reimu, and Marisa is like...she's like... more than a sidekick, but not quite as definite a main character as Reimu. Not really sure how to describe her.
But why?

Sure, reimu was the only playable character for the first 2 pc-98 games, but that's it... The first of which has barely any recognition at all, and the 2nd, has virtually none other than Mima fanboys, references to mima fanboys, and this forum's reference to Rika, and I don't think I've ever bumped into a reference to Rika anywhere else. Ever since then, Marisa has been the other playable character! (except when Reimu hasn't been either, like with double spoiler, the aya game before it (brain fart, forgot the name.. supernatural phenominon? or is that the fighting game? gah), cirno's game (which has more marisa than reimu but I digress), etc.

Am I missing why Reimu is considered a main character more than Marisa other than those 2 games which everywhere else seem not to even count? I know Marisa isn't forgotten or overlooked or anything, everyone knows and respects her status in the Touhou universe, but she's still noticeably less than Reimu IMO, and when looking at my train of thought above, I don't really know why. I don't follow the manga or anything so maybe it's obvious there, I'm asking more than trying to challenge anyone.

Because in the grand scheme of things Marisa isn't important, it's the truth, Marisa takes part in her own will but it's Reimu's job.
Reimu is considered a main character more than Marisa in the same way Mario is considered one more than Luigi, as you already mentioned Reimu does "save" the day more than her and generally people come to her for help rather than Marisa.

That isn't to say Marisa isn't a main character in her own right, she just simply isn't as important, she started out as a henchwoman to a friendly rival, Touhou started as a thing about Reimu doing stuff.

[Splashman]

I guess Reimu is always about
"The whole well-being of Gensokyo rests on my shoulders. I've been granted a great power, so it's my responsibility to see that any incident, no matter how petty, gets resolved right and orderly.
It might be a sucky job, and doesn't pay well... but someone's gotta do it. Being nigh invincible helps of course."

While Marisa is mostly in it for "fun and personal profit. Also, I can annoy Reimu when I beat her to the punch".

Reimu is considered a main character more than Marisa in the same way Mario is considered one more than Luigi, as you already mentioned Reimu does "save" the day more than her and generally people come to her for help rather than Marisa.

But Marisa doesn't really strike me as a Player 2. I believe Sanae has been established to be exactly that, the Luigi to Reimu's Mario.

Speaking of, what about the other human's role as main characters?

[Tengukami]

But Marisa doesn't really strike me as a Player 2. I believe Sanae has been established to be exactly that, the Luigi to Reimu's Mario.

I'm not so sure about this. I mean I see where you're coming from as far as the most recent games tho, but I think Reimu and Marisa being the Protag Duo is a long ways from fading.

[Reu]

I guess Reimu is always about
"The whole well-being of Gensokyo rests on my shoulders. I've been granted a great power, so it's my responsibility to see that any incident, no matter how petty, gets resolved right and orderly.
It might be a sucky job, and doesn't pay well... but someone's gotta do it. Being nigh invincible helps of course."

While Marisa is mostly in it for "fun and personal profit. Also, I can annoy Reimu when I beat her to the punch".
But Marisa doesn't really strike me as a Player 2. I believe Sanae has been established to be exactly that, the Luigi to Reimu's Mario.

Speaking of, what about the other human's role as main characters?

Sanae isn't Luigi, as she isn't the established always 2nd player character, she and the rest of the playables are simply guest stars featured in certain games but not all, similar to toad(s)/peach/whoever.

[Drake]

people think sanae is reimu's luigi because she's green and is a shrine maiden