Undertale

[Moogs Parfait]

Spoiler:

I disagree because despite flashy colors and music, Asriel is more of a denouement boss and the player has already won by getting to him.  Flowey serves as the real final boss of the path.

[Iryan]

Flowey serves as the real final boss of the path.

Spoiler:

Except that if your first run is a neutral run and you have to reset to get pacifist, which is actually pretty likely if you play the game unspoiled, on your second run, you don't get to fight flowey. If you head back out of the core after mettaton, you don't get to fight asgore either. Meaning there is no actual challenging final boss for that route, which was a bit of a letdown to me...

Wait, I just realized.

Spoiler:

The true final boss is obviously the special thanks! Silly me...

  :V

[Moogs Parfait]

Spoiler:

Unless it changed I thought that even if you befriend Alphys, you couldn't go the the True Lab without first getting through a Neutral end, thus you have to fight Asgore and Flowey even on a True Pascifist

[Janitor Morgan]

One thing I like about the patch's changes is that

Spoiler:

it implies Papyrus has Gaster blasters as well and knows how to use them.

Bone buddy stronk.

[Iryan]

Spoiler:

Unless it changed I thought that even if you befriend Alphys, you couldn't go the the True Lab without first getting through a Neutral end, thus you have to fight Asgore and Flowey even on a True Pascifist

Spoiler:

That's the thing though, if you do a neutral and then reset, you are not gonna fight flowey again until you get a true reset through the true pacifist ending (or committing genocide). So if you do an actual neutral run, as opposed to a first-time pacifist with neutral ending, you don't get to fight flowey again if you go for a true pacifist one afterwards.

One thing I like about the patch's changes is that

Spoiler:

it implies Papyrus has Gaster blasters as well and knows how to use them.

Bone buddy stronk.

Adding on to that: Paps has even more control of himself than Toriel. He will never kill you, not even by accident. Which implies that if he wanted to, he would be way better at it than his attacks in the regular boss battle imply. Of course, at that point, it becomes fanon, but it is not a far stretch at all. Then again,

Spoiler:

since both Toriel and even Asgore are obviously holding back in some way, the former because she doesn't want to kill you and the latter because he is full of guilt and would rather you kill HIM, their true strength is hard to judge as well

Which means once again, character power level discussions become rather pointless. They have more merit than in touhou I guess, but still, way too much ambiguity...  BV

[pineyappled]

http://puu.sh/mHxyK/560622998a.png lmao

[Jaimers]

I got around to playing through Undertale.
Spoilers I guess.

Spoiler:

since both Toriel and even Asgore are obviously holding back in some way, the former because she doesn't want to kill you and the latter because he is full of guilt and would rather you kill HIM, their true strength is hard to judge as well

If you look in the code you can see that

Spoiler:

Asgore has 3500 HP with 10 ATK and -30 DEF. In pacifist, talking makes him 9 ATK, -40 DEF and talking + pie makes him 8 ATK, -45 DEF.

Spoiler:

Since CHECK shows that he has 80 ATK and 80 DEF you can tell that he's holding back like no tomorrow. He could easily one-shot you if he wanted too.

[Drake]

So I started my first loop earlier today, finished half an hour ago, now on my way to true Pacifist. I pretty much already did it unless the game changes significantly with this loop. I went for angry Undyne and it ended up being the hardest fight in the run. Besides that I didn't really bother with healing items and ended up finishing at LV10 from lategame randoms.

Spoiler:

Asgore's fight was incredibly cool but kind of disappointingly easy.

Is there anything in particular I should look out for? Or does the game show its cards just by playing through like normal?

oh yeah i also accidentally started by completing hard mode without realizing i was in it

[Iryan]

Is there anything in particular I should look out for? Or does the game show its cards just by playing through like normal?

Generally, the less you know about the game, the better, so you can make your own decisions etc. But also generally, trying out a lot of things and looking around is worth it, because there is a lot to find and find out, even on multiple playthroughs.

If you look in the code you can see that

Spoiler:

Asgore has 3500 HP with 10 ATK and -30 DEF. In pacifist, talking makes him 9 ATK, -40 DEF and talking + pie makes him 8 ATK, -45 DEF.

Spoiler:

Since CHECK shows that he has 80 ATK and 80 DEF you can tell that he's holding back like no tomorrow. He could easily one-shot you if he wanted too.

Well,

Spoiler:

if I am not mistaken, most if not all of the Check results, at least for bosses, display numbers that are totally wrong in regards to the battle. Probably even moreso since the recent patch.
This, of course, is very intentional. You are supposed to be intimidated by large numbers, and possibly feel like you actually need to level up to get stronger. If you do level up by killing a bunch of stuff on your first, neutral run, this also helps the illusion that you are doing what you might be supposed to do: you manage to defeat enemies with much higher stats because you yourself get stronger... when actually, almost all of your gradual strength increase over the course of the game comes from your equipment.

And on the other hand,

Spoiler:

if you manage to truly play through the game as a pacifist, you will realize that all these numbers are not important, in direct contrast to the No Mercy ending that emphasizes the "importance" of stats, at least to the type of player who would do the No Mercy run in the first place.

Once again... god dammit Toby.

[Janitor Morgan]

Is there anything in particular I should look out for? Or does the game show its cards just by playing through like normal?

One thing that might be less than obvious:

Spoiler:

after Mettaton, as long as you've done all of the events required for the pacifist ending up to that point, you'll have to backtrack to the hotel for the next event trigger.

[Drake]

True Pacifist done (also in one sitting lol). The storytelling is so well done in this game it's nuts. I already knew it was good by proxy, but it really gives me a Cave Story vibe in the way that it gradually lets the reader put various pieces together on their own without being too cryptic or too explicit.


Streaming Genocide loop: http://www.twitch.tv/drakeirving

[Tamashii Kanjou]

This just in...

Drake

Spoiler:

GOT DUUUUUUUUUUUUNKED ON! :3

[Drake]

Yeah, and then I dunked them back without using any items.

Genocide done. Winner is me.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

Bumping thread to post this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=786bb0vGdJM

Massive genocide spoilers, but god help me if it's not one of the best fanmade things I've seen yet.

[Mr. Sacchi]

Ayup, the dude behind Dreemurr Reborn is extremely dedicated to their work, according to them it was a 4-week labor of love.

The only bad thing about it is that it's an animation, not an actual fight, but holy crap did it turn out amazing.

[Leon゠Helsing]

Couldn't help but laugh at this. :V (Genocide spoiler warning... I think?)

[MatsuriSakuragi]

I really wish more people would understand (and embrace) that

Spoiler:

they were, in fact, Chara all along

.

[Mr. Sacchi]

I really wish more people would understand (and embrace) that

Spoiler:

they were, in fact, Chara all along

.

Well Genocide ending does

Spoiler:

establish the player and Chara as two completely different beings.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

I don't really see it that way.

Spoiler:

The distinguishing point is between Frisk and Chara, not the player and Chara. When you are naming the fallen human, even Toby Fox himself says that the name you should put in is your own.

The genocide reveal is that it is not Frisk who is killing anyone, but the soul of Chara, who is possessing them. And the game will make note of that-- if you originally named the fallen human by your own name, Chara will introduce themselves as your name.

You are Chara; Chara is you-- as Chara is an embodiment of the more or less psychopathic traditional way of playing RPGs-- steal everything you possibly can, kill everything for experience points, boost your numbers so you can become strong-- and then after you've completed the game for the best possible ending, you go back and see what happens if you respond differently to those same situations. What if you did everything good in the first run? Well, you already know what happens, so what happens if you do everything bad in the next? How does the story change? How do the characters react? Undertale was written with that in mind, and the true ending is only given to those who think outside that box and do everything they can to be nice and refrain from any killing whatsoever. The game keeps you from getting the true ending if you play it like a traditional RPG-- and if you take it further and try to minmax your stats and make the strongest possible character, killing everything and everyone you come across, the game punishes you by making YOU the villain and forcing you to play much more difficult challenges to proceed, all the while making you feel like absolute scum every step of the way.

And that's what I like about Undertale! If you're accustomed to games of constant grinding, you begin to see enemies as numbers, as means to an end, to make your own numbers go up, and it strives to be an experience that deviates from that norm, all while still allowing you to choose how you play it. It just makes you aware that your actions have consequences. And a body count.

[Monarda]

Oh well, i never did Genocide, and will never do, my heart, ethics and personality can`t stand doing unnecessary harm.
But this here makes me really reflect, just as much as that theory about

Spoiler:

Sans being Ness from Earthbound

[Raikaria]

Well Genocide ending does

Spoiler:

establish the player and Chara as two completely different beings.

And yet at the same time the Pacifist ending

Spoiler:

establishes Frisk and Chara as two separate beings as well

.

It's up for interpretation what the meaning of Frisk and Chara is.

[Stuffman]

I was about to complain that

Spoiler:

it didn't make sense for Chara to purely be the player since they have an established backstory in the setting, which obviously doesn't apply to the player and would make them an independent character. But now that I think about it, Chara could have become a sort of higher concept like that, since they were presumably part of Flowey until Frisk showed up. That would also fit with the frequent references to Chara not being human. So I guess I can get on board with that. Maybe less of the player themself and more of a mirror, though.

Also, genocide route is the true ending, because it's the only one that does something permanent. :]

[Monarda]

Is this the one they call Stuffman ? The creator of the legendary and now deceased Purplequest and Silverquest ? Wow ! 

Also, genocide route is the true ending, because it's the only one that does something permanent. :]

Actually, doing a Pacifist and then a Genocide run does change some stuff if i`m not wrong. So that isn`t something exclusive to Genocide.

[Stuffman]

Some stuff does carry over from a neutral run to any following runs, but doing a true reset after completing pacifist returns the game to a blank slate. UNLESS you've done genocide.

[Monarda]

Some stuff does carry over from a neutral run to any following runs, but doing a true reset after completing pacifist returns the game to a blank slate. UNLESS you've done genocide.

True Genocide, as in agreeing to sell your soul to Chara. _{^{(You monster)}}
Not choosing that doesn`t  leave permanent scratchs. :V And i don`t really think that makes it the canon ending, it`s more to make it haunt you forever and ever and ever.

[Stuffman]

You can't reset unless you agree to it after completing genocide. You can say no, but your game is effectively bricked until you say yes.

I'm joking anyway.

[Leon゠Helsing]

The reason why I agree with the comic I linked is that I personally believe

Spoiler:

while Chara may have been fucked up to a degree to begin with, we are the ones responsible for corrupting them into the "demon" we see at the Genocide ending by engaging in the horrific acts ourselves.

[Moogs Parfait]

Spoiler:

Am I missing something or is Alphys, as written, completely self-involved and lacking empathy towards others?  She only worries how things will affect her, and it makes it hard to see her as a sympathetic character.  The other characters seem to be aware of their flaws and struggle with them to some degree, but I feel like Alphys misses the point.  With her having a date scene in the game I expect she is supposed to be a sympathetic character, so this feels like a flaw in the writing.  Either that or I've missed something.

[Stuffman]

I really would have liked the ability to confront Alphys after MTT spills the beans.

Honestly I think the Alphys section is the weakest part of the game, there's no variation in how she interacts with you regardless of if you're going on a killing spree or not, no response if you've killed Undyne, etc.

I didn't dislike the content that was there, mind you, it was just a lot more linearly scripted than the rest of the game.

[Iryan]

The reason why I agree with the comic I linked is that I personally believe

Spoiler:

while Chara may have been fucked up to a degree to begin with, we are the ones responsible for corrupting them into the "demon" we see at the Genocide ending by engaging in the horrific acts ourselves.

Spoiler:

This is basically confirmed by Chara's dialogue in the end of the genocide route. YOU made them "realize their purpose". In fact, aside from Asriel saying that "Chara might not have been a very good person" and that they "hated humanity", we have no real reason to assume that Chara was evil.

It points more towards them having a fucked up childhood or traumatic experience which made them come to Mt. Ebbott, either to flee from humanity in general or

Spoiler:

suicide

. And there they find this fantastic kingdom of nice beings, who are doomed to a life with no sunlight after being slaughtered in an unjust war, which once again, is the fault of humanity. The one "evil" thing we know that chara did/wanted to do was that they wanted to kill humans to break the barrier. And were willing to sacrifice their own life to that end as well, especially since there is no reason to assume that they know they would still have some form of consciousness or control after asriel took their soul.

So, before their death, Chara was definitely traumatized or messed up by shitty things in their prior life, and made some bad decisions because of that. This applies to several of the main characters though. You can think that Chara was always evil, but there really is no reason to do that. Aside from, of course, trying to blame them for one's own deeds in the Genocide run.

Spoiler:

After Chara's death, things become more fuzzy, but yeah, the quotes from the genocide ending still stand. In fact, there is some merit to assuming that the ghost of chara is with Frisk regardless of how you are playing, including possibly influencing them in some way. A specific fan theory is that several (if not most/all) of the CHECK: descriptions, object descriptions and flavortexts in the game are in fact narrated by the ghost of Chara. Not just the red ones in the genocide run. When I do another playthrough some time, I will try to pay attention to things to see how plausible that is for myself, but I know that there are several indications towards this. And if this is true, this does imply a lot about Chara's personality, including a degree of cynicism (as expected, considering everything that has happened up until then).

I might look for some links to relevant info on that later.

Personally, I am perfectly fine with Undertale not having a true villain beyond the darker aspects of human nature itself,

Spoiler:

which are what caused the war, what caused the tragedy of Chara and Asriel, and what causes YOU to murder everyone.