Puzzle and Dragons Thread 23 - LET'S GET WET (and salty)

[commandercool]

Alright, you devious Gungho plants wore me down and now I'm buying stones. I don't usually do this, but fuck it. Prepare for pain!

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Literally the worst possible results, AGAIN. Don't let anyone tell you the rates on this machine are good.

[Suikama]

m8 what u say

doesnt count u have muse u but

[Mr. Sacchi]

Aldebaran's legit for these purposes, though it'd be really nice if the RGB mechdragons got some ults going on like Canopener and Hadar got so they at least get decent awakes.

Canopusener is the green mechdragon :V

Regulus Reggy is the Light one.

Though my question is this: Would water orb enhance actives outweigh the benefit of Zaerog's burst/gravity or Orochi's 4 turn delay? Because I see those as more beneficial overall, personally. But I didn't crunch any numbers here either, so.

I could do some number crunching depending on how hard the actual math is, I just need to know what exactly we're comparing here. Entire teams would be preferable since we're talking about orb enhance awakenings.

[OverlordChirei]

doesnt count u have muse u but

I used Muse on Amat, but it turns out I didn't even need him. Another Starling would have worked fine.

[Chaore]

guess who has two thumbs and forgot kaguya binds devils.

not this rabbit, rabbits have no thumbs

did forget kaguya bind though

fuck why does red bind clear have to suck so bad ;; i can't take ascension now

[MatsuriSakuragi]

Canopusener is the green mechdragon :V

Regulus Reggy is the Light one.

Yeah. Right. That one. Shows how much I use 'em. :V

But yeah, kinda wish the other colors would get ults too. They're nice stat sticks!

I could do some number crunching depending on how hard the actual math is, I just need to know what exactly we're comparing here. Entire teams would be preferable since we're talking about orb enhance awakenings.

Well overall I suppose the contenders here regarding dragons are (noting that PDX does not have Awilda's LS correct, leaving out the 1.2x all stat boosts for dragon):


Full team HP (assuming hypermax, correcting for what PDX leaves out): 38950
Full team Water ATK (same): 117,474
Full team RCV (same as above): 4081

In this layout, we have 13 water boosts, and that therefore shall assume that you'd be seeing a 65% boost in damage. The problem is, I don't know how enhanced orbs are calculated into damage totals. Zaerog's place, of course, would double all damage for a turn as well as do a 15% gravity.

Technically I suppose one could drop Orochi for a water enhancer and that would give maximum effect, but my counterpoint is that you get *4* free turns to beat on things with his active (also note that Awoken Orochi can hit REALLY REALLY HARD with 4 TPA).

For the sake of enhancers, Zaerog or Orochi could be dropped for... well, Aldebaran is the best (rather, ONLY) dragon option. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but his enhancement would come at the price of losing two very useful actives:

If Zaerog is dropped:

Fixed Max HP: 40555
Fixed Water ATK: 116073
Fixed RCV: 4458

One more orb enhance, boosting the bonus to 70%, better HP, better RCV (because lol Zaerog HP). Water ATK is negligibly lower, though Aldebaran lacks Zaerog's TPA. He does pack the orb enhance active though.


If Orochi is dropped:

Fixed Max HP: 38312
Fixed Water ATK: 122553 (but at the price of losing Orochi's 4 TPA!)
Fixed Max RCV: 3879

This one I'm quite a bit opposed to. Worst stats of the set when taking Orochi's TPAs into account, and there's little benefit to this team that replacing Zaerog did not have. 14 enhancement awakenings still. But no quad-TPA and no 4-turn delay to beat things until they die.


Thus, unless Aldebaran's enhancement is really that fantastic numbers-wise compared to losing Orochi, I think it would be safe to conclude that Orochi should stay and Zaerog's position is the tenuous one. But at the same time, does a 2x burst and a gravity not outweigh enhanced orbs, and at what threshold is one better than the other?

One more possibility, if one were to consider ignoring the stat boosts and putting what should seem to be the ideal non-dragon enhancer, BOdin, in Zaerog's place, stat calculations noting BOdin's less-boosted stats:

Fixed Max HP: 32869 for the dragons' enhanced HP plus BOdin's unenhanced 5521 HP = 38390
Fixed Water ATK: 97479 for the dragons' 9x, plus BOdin's 11163 at 6.25x = 108642
Fixed Max RCV: 3869 for the dragons' enhanced RCV plus BOdin's unenhanced 845 RCV = 4714

Surprisingly, this still has comparable HP due to BOdin being absolutely massive. The ATK is understandably lower, but this is supplemented somewhat by BOdin's 3 TPA, which should keep him hitting hard. And this set has the best RCV overall. However, this is at the price of a great 2x burst from Zaerog.  However, this setup also works strongly in favor despite that, since BOdin packs three skill boosts to get Orochi closer to usability, and his active can save you if your HP gets hit below 50% (don't forget that the ATK boost is lost under that HP threshold). His three row awakenings can allow flexibility as well, allowing you to punch hard individually with TPAs or boost everyone by yet another 60% for each row you make. This one seems like the clear-cut winner, honestly.


The catch to all of this remains, however: I don't know how enhanced orb damage is calculated. So I'm still not entirely sure if it beats a 2x boost/gravity (which, keep in mind, can do a lot of damage in and of itself). Otherwise it looks like the lattermost build is the winner.

What do you think?

[trancehime]

alright yay i'm done

The catch to all of this remains, however: I don't know how enhanced orb damage is calculated. So I'm still not entirely sure if it beats a 2x boost/gravity (which, keep in mind, can do a lot of damage in and of itself). Otherwise it looks like the lattermost build is the winner.

IMO you should do the latter-most build because A.Orochi TPA with that many orb enhance will make him hit far harder than any other Blue monster even with the generally lower multiplier compared to other leads. Though of course there might be situations where you want a gravity over a delay, but it's pretty much more of a niche pick than anything.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

I figured as much. Though I still wonder how precisely enhanced orbs are counted, mathematically.

_{also where is parvati on that team how dare you u catte loving fool}

[trancehime]

I figured as much. Though I still wonder how precisely enhanced orbs are counted, mathematically.

the latter most team has 13 OE, which means if you match a Blue TPA your extra multiplier is calculated like this:

[x1.00 + (6% x 4) ] * [1.00 + (13 * 5%)]
x1.24 * 1.75 = x2.17

_{also where is parvati on that team how dare you u catte loving fool}

[Mr. Sacchi]

I just did some quick checking in-game and apparently there are hidden arcane maths behind the usage of enhanced orbs, since with my athena team a simple three-match with all three orbs being enhanced should've given me a x1,33 multiplier. It gave me x1,35.

* Toyosatomimi No Sacchi does math and ends up finding the answer.

Okay so the way orb enhances work is that it  picks up the amount of enhanced orbs in a single match, and then multiplies that multiplier by the current multiplier of your enhanced orbs awakenings and I just realized that sounded really fucking confusing.

3 enhanced orbs = 18% multiplier, with 3 orb enhances (which is how many my athena team has) it's 1,18 * 1,15 = 1,357 so that explains the multiplier I got.

So a simple 3-match with 13 orb enhances would be a 1,947 multiplier which gets close-ish to a double TPA's multiplier, sorta/kinda. Of course that applies to all cards that are of that element so I guess it's more versatile than TPAs.

A full board of 30 orbs would be a... 4,62x multiplier? Which is close to quad TPA numbers but using like a billion times more orbs but can't stack and doesn't have combo multipliers so it's undoubtebly worse.

Uhh... optimal board conditions would be...

...I can't think of anything that's even remotely realistic on a Karin board? I mean I guess 4 blue TPAs two greens an a dark one + 2 random off-colors would be the ideal match for that team so that's like a 2,046x multiplier for each blue TPA which would make Orochi deal absolutely stupid numbers... Assuming all blue orbs are enhanced, of course.

Orbs enhances unfortunately are only really good once you're stacking multiple enhanced orbs so you still need an enhancer despite having a 260% chance for them to drop. If you match four enhanced orbs that multiplier is already slightly higher than Zaerog's active so I guess Aldebaran is better than Zaerog is pretty much every way shape and form especially since Aldebaran gives one bonus orb enhance.

BOdin beats both of them though, no question, rofl.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

...so yes.

We can conclude that Awilda is uh....

Really, really damn good, all things considered. And 4*, no less. Do you know how insane that will be for S ranking?

[trancehime]

RGBL Valks all got Attacker as their 3rd type. This benefits GValk the most.

DValk got Devil type.

UUVO Kirin got Dragon type. It's thematically sound, but ultimately awkward.

[Suikama]

what the fuck i just stoned by accident

give

me

back

my

stone

fuck

youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[commandercool]

what the fuck i just stoned by accident

give

me

back

my

stone

fuck

youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

...


...


Just git gud and don't lose in the first place.

SorryIdidn'tmeanitdon'thitme!

[Suikama]

i died on the fucking second floor of pad island because my orbs got flipfucked and didnt make a row

then i destroyed the rest of the stupid dungeon but the damage is already done

i was going to get enough for a roll but now this dungeon is literally dead to me

[commandercool]

Are you talking about that thing where you pick up an orb and it gets stuck for a second and then just pops to where your finger is and ruins everything? I've been getting that semi-often lately.

Regarding shitty things that happen semi-often though, I haven't been getting that "Unfortunately PAD has stopped working" message at all lately. So that's good...

[MatsuriSakuragi]

I have spent approximately 2000 stamina on Wood Cat Dungeon since my last Osiris skillup. He just needs one more. I have probably spent 4000 stamina on this dungeon overall, since I've done pretty much literally nothing but that since it started. Claymore skillmaxed ages ago.

Frustrated after not getting a single fucking devinyan after playing ALL DAY today, even after a rank up, I decided to throw a stone at it before the 1.5x drop rate ends.

I get two rounds where two of them drop right away.

No skillups.

Now, I'm already furious. But on my last try, one Devinyan drops. I proceed to the boss. I chip him down to half, as always. I load Meimei, GZL, and Athena, as always. But I get a lousy mostly-dark board.



The blast takes him down to literally a pixel of health. He Calico Shotguns me.

You will never

ever

ever

e v e r

have worse luck than me in this fucking game.

Take solace in that.


EDIT: Fed one more stone into it.

3 Devinyans.

Nothing.

[trancehime]

i may not see eye to eye with the rest of you on many things in PAD, but I can be certain we can all agree on one thing

FUCK skill up farming and skill ups themselves.

i'm sorry Matsy :ohdear:

EDIT:

http://pad.gungho.jp/member/150819_live_machina.html

new descend, Deus ex Machina.

Will most likely be a Machine type, no ideas as to what she'll bring to the table though.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

She's absolutely gorgeous and I am in love with her character design. I don't even care if she's good or not, I'll be sure to get her.

That said I can't imagine her LS would affect machine types with any exclusivity, the field just isn't broad or good enough for that (outside of Hysferzen, Sherospada, ult Golems, and Canopus and Hadar, NA really has nothing going for us-- and even in JP the selection isn't that much better-- they have the row-enhancing and column/TPA machine dragons but even then they're not what I'd call enough). There's also Eva collab stuff, hoping they get good ults, and JP has Duel Masters stuff, I guess... but that's really it.


Though I'm calling it now, I bet she'll be a Norn evo mat, kind of like Sphinx was to the Egypt 1 gods.

[trancehime]

That said I can't imagine her LS would affect machine types with any exclusivity, the field just isn't broad or good enough for that (outside of Hysferzen, Sherospada, ult Golems, and Canopus and Hadar, NA really has nothing going for us-- and even in JP the selection isn't that much better-- they have the row-enhancing and column/TPA machine dragons but even then they're not what I'd call enough). There's also Eva collab stuff, hoping they get good ults, and JP has Duel Masters stuff, I guess... but that's really it.

Depending on whether she L/D or D/L, JP will probably try to figure out a way to shove Cloud in there (many people forget he's Attacker/Machine)

[MatsuriSakuragi]

Also true.

Still, a bunch of collab cards and the okay-at-best Mechanized Dragons/Beasts does not exactly a broad subpool make.

My prediction is that if she does anything for machine type, she'll also be doing it for god type too. Deus ex Machina means God from the Machine, after all!

(at least I hope. Please don't be machine exclusive I really want to use you )

[Dorakyura]

the latter most team has 13 OE, which means if you match a Blue TPA your extra multiplier is calculated like this:

This is why Awoken Haku is really god.
Has 2 TPA and 2 dark OE. Having 3 AHaku in a team will break the game :3

[Thaws]

i may not see eye to eye with the rest of you on many things in PAD, but I can be certain we can all agree on one thing

FUCK skill up farming and skill ups themselves.

i'm sorry Matsy :ohdear:

EDIT:

http://pad.gungho.jp/member/150819_live_machina.html

new descend, Deus ex Machina.

Will most likely be a Machine type, no ideas as to what she'll bring to the table though.

先日募集された「生放送ゲスト出演者募集」より、数多くの応募者の中から選抜された「ぱぷりか」氏が、新降臨ダンジョン「デウス＝エクス＝マキナ降臨！」に初見でチャレンジするぞ!!

PAPRIKA CHOSEN TO GO ON THE OFFICIAL LIVESTREAM TO CHALLENGE DEUS EX MACHINA

[OverlordChirei]

It's time to unveil my new weapon!



wadatsumi is a loser, i don't even need rem subs to beat his ass

[commandercool]

I guess I'm gonna grind out ten stones with the new alts and do two more pulls on Summer REM. You'd think after being stung that badly by it I'd stop, but I'm choosing to take the fact that I own every four-star except the one I actually want as a positive sign rather than a negative one. RIP +egg farming, RIP me. At least it's a project to work on that doesn't involve mindlessly farming.

It's time to unveil my new weapon!



wadatsumi is a loser, i don't even need rem subs to beat his ass

Dragon emperor high five! Did you have a contingency for if you got a heart skyfall while killing Siren?

[OverlordChirei]

Dragon emperor high five! Did you have a contingency for if you got a heart skyfall while killing Siren?

I actually got the Threedia idea from watching you, but I actually did, though it's fairly risky.

Cu Chu has to be saved from the sachi bros. for best effect - burst Siren immediately. This will either kill her outright, or make her bind everybody. Either way, I just have to survive the 2-3 turns. The third hit will do well over half my health, so she dies then assuming no outstandingly bad RNG. This is much, much, much, much more difficult to use than Wangren/Beyzul burst, and I really wish Threedia also had a full-life condition sometimes.

[commandercool]

Yeah, Threedia kind of got the short end of the stick. I guess the argument could be made that it's made up for by his synergy with Hercules and similar actives, but it's not really.

[OverlordChirei]

Yeah, Threedia kind of got the short end of the stick. I guess the argument could be made that it's made up for by his synergy with Hercules and similar actives, but it's not really.

The one advantage is that if I somehow survive repeated attacks, I can keep swinging with him for more than just one turn. The problem is timing all this with Alraune's leader skill going away, as I technically now have to be way less than half my health to use him. Needless to say, this is not something I am going to be bringing into every dungeon, but he's definitely no less powerful than his brothers.

[commandercool]

Oh yeah, he is 50% or less. I waa thinking it was lower than that. Still kind of risky, but he's waaaaaay easier to skill up, so that's cool.

The way I see it, his biggest loss, even more than accidentally healing out of range, is the fact that he loses swapping synergy with HP-boosting leads. With Gabriel and Beyzul I can actually activate Beyzul anywhere in the 50-100% range because I lose half my HP when I swap. With Michael and Threedia you need to be at 25% or less before you can swap because the halfway point changes, which is some harsh anti-synergy. I suppose the takeaway is that they're meant to be played with different kinds of teams, but the emperors pair best with low-attack leads so that the attack boost after swapping is a bigger gain, and the good ones of those tend to boost HP and recovery.

[Mr. Sacchi]

I still want the dragon emperors to get ultimates which make them competitive in today's meta.

Like say, all emperors gettings 3 typings and having their multipliers increased to x4.5 or something.

Or just balls to the wall crazy, like say Wangren becoming Dragon/God/Attacker and his leader skill turning into "ATK x4.5 to Fire & Attacker when HP is above 80%. Dragon type ATK x1.5."

And of course, Beyzul becoming Dragon/God/Healer and his leader skill turning into "ATK x4.5 for Water & Healers when HP is above 80%. Dragon type ATK x1.5." just to make ccool cream his pants push water healers a little farther while giving a bonus to water dragons.

Or we could make Zaerog be the ultimate dragon leader with something stupid like "Dragon type HP/RCV x1.35, ATK x2. Dragon Type ATK increases as health decreases" with the numbers being like x1 at 100% x1.5 at 99%, x2 at 80%, x3 at 50%, x4 at 20% and x5 at 5% :V

tl;dr: The emperors are far too cool to see so little play.