Filler Mafia - Day 5

[Sky_Paladin]

Shadoweh was covered in yellow paint, so if we any new players colored in yellow, they may have targeted Shadoweh. 

If there's no new yellow players, then it's one of Zak or CF7.  Tally, please!

[Sky_Paladin]

##vote Oarfish while we wait. 

[O4rfish]

What will your excuse be when I flip Town?

[O4rfish]

Let's suppose CF7 flips Town.  We can point to him acting scummy.  CF7 has been acting scummy, so he gets lynched.  No recriminations needed.

Let's suppose I flip Town.  Your excuse would be ... Oarfish was surrounded by coincidences?  He figured things out too easily? 

[O4rfish]

Perhaps you will say "I rely heavily on scumtells and gotchas, perhaps too heavily.  I should really dial that back a bit."  but then you don't learn the lesson and do the same thing next time.

[Raitaki]

You're not seriously still on the "Oarfish somehow knew Shadoweh had roleblock" thing, are you? That seemed just like the reasonable guess to "A supposedly targeted B but my role tells me B wasn't affected" situation to me.

[Sky_Paladin]

We can point to him acting scummy.  CF7 has been acting scummy, so he gets lynched.  No recriminations needed.

Anybody can vote CF7 because he's the low hanging fruit.  If we can't come to another good option, I'll likely consolidate there. 

I think Bard is probably town because DNA was trying.  Shadoweh's demise does seem to implicate (or perhaps frame) Bard, so I'm interested in his catch up.  She was not particularly contributing, so I think she got taken out because of meta.  I actually expected DNA/Bard's slot to die instead for basically the same reason. 

I'm interested in Raitaki's catch-up so far, although I can't see a CF7/Serela scum team.  Why would CF7 allegedly doc Serela (and claim it?) if they were scum buddies?  It'd make more sense to claim a faked doc on, say, Sky, when the initial paint mixup occured. 

Anyway, my main reasoning for Oarfish!scum is that he seemed to know in advance that Shadoweh had roleblocked CF7, which means he was probably in private communication with one of them.  Shadoweh exploded, so it's not her.  That seems to leave POE as CF7 as the triple-good-lynch for today.  I'm interested in exploring other options as well. 

If we later see CF7 and Zak flip town, then Oarfish is off the hook as far as I'm concerned. 

It probably makes more sense from my position to lynch CF7 first, and then evaluate Oarfish after that flip. 

Hmm. 

##unvote

cut:

My feeling from rolespec is that Zak/Oarfish are scum, and that Zak's n1 action which was not explained informed him that Shadoweh had roleblocked CF7. 
I'm deeply unhappy with Oarfish's explanation that his non-compulsive role was apparently compulsively acted out by SB on to CF7. 
My feeling from reading the game is that CF7/Serela are scum, however that doesn't match what I said just before, although it means I can feel where you're coming from in your team analysis. 
It also means I have implicit clears, currently, on you and Bard, for now. 

I'm also concerned that Shadoweh was hit even though she was painted.  That seems like an unnecessarily risky move for scum.  I could see an already painted scum-member making the hit, thus allowing their buddy to stay in the limelight.  This would only really make sense if that scum was already at serious risk - CF7. 

OK.  So he is the low hanging fruit.  But perhaps that is because he is actually scum. 

[Bardiche]

(ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻

##Vote: Shadoweh

[Bardiche]

┬─┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ)

So the name of the game is extreme apathy. I'd hoped to sub into something more exciting than two No Lynches in a row.

CF7 is either Scum, or the world's worst Town player ever. I get that some attention goes to the off-site Mafia game(s) he's been playing in, but contributions so far have been worse than Sky Paladin drunk posting. I'd vote him, but that's too easy and there's other fish to be had before we go to the main dish.

O4rfish's Day 2 Sky Paladin narrative is terrible. Presenting a false dichotomy about his actions as part of a strawman argument to say that the player contributing most to the scumhunting effort is scum is incredible. Not in a good way. The entire narrative falls flat the moment you abandon the assumption Sky Paladin is scum and approach it from the idea that everyone is null at first. Moreover, the explanation for a Town!Pal doing it is more appealing than O4rfish's idea of a Scum!Pal.

Given that O4rfish's contributions for Day 2 limit themselves to attacking the most active player, explaining Mafia terms and some roleshens.

I do not have a good case on anyone

Said here is terrible, because it just follows up by pointing at three people and making no effort to differentiate between them whatsoever. There's very little scumhunting to speak of, and most of it is cordial discussion of mechanics, as if he just isn't concerned with finding scum.

##Unvote
##Vote: O4rfish

Zakeri's presence has been extremely forgettable and I struggle to remember what he's done, despite reading the game just yesterday. I have zero desire to lynch Serela today and that will not change, barring a cop claim.

[Raitaki]

Bard does make a compelling case against Oarfish; looking more closely, he has been needlessly squabbled with SkyPal over the whole "let's lynch Oarfish" thing, too. Which would just be poor sportsmanship/temper or something if both sides were actually trying to argue that the other is scum, but given that Oarfish never seemed to suspect SkyPal since admitting that he had no good case on anyone, it's extremely odd that he would still try to actively discredit SkyPal without actually thinking that he was scum. Starting to see the merit of this wagon now.

On the possibility of CF7/Serela scum team, if they already decided to throw CF7 under the bus (which to be fair was quite likely considering CF7 tossed out the gold that was "Purely gut" shortly afterwards), then they could let CF7 claim whatever the hell he wanted because they already planned for him to get offed. Not that it really mattered who CF7 claims to doctor, if anyone said "CF7 doctored Serela cuz buddies" after his flip Serela would just argue that since she got 0-shot Vig she knew town likely had no other vigs so there was no reason to let CF7 buddy her up with the doc.

I think I've about exhausted what I can from isoreads, so I suppose I'll try to look into interactions next.

[Raitaki]

Also, requesting votals

[SB]

CF7 (2): Bike-huni Zakeri, O4rfish
Serela (1): Raitaki
O4rfish (1): Bardiche

Not Voting (3): Sky_Paladin, CF7, Serela

There are just under 63 hours left in the day. With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

[CF7]

Atm, i have a very severe case of apathy. Also having a fever of 38.3. It all adds up to me not really having desire to do anything other than lying in my bed.
Also ##Vote Zak.
Also the game techically ended in universal loss.

[O4rfish]

O4rfish's Day 2 Sky Paladin narrative is terrible.

Yes, I realized that after Skypal himself pointed that out.

I'd vote CF7 but that's too easy.

Apparently not, since we've skipped lynching twice in a row, with DNA's help.

In fact, when you look at DNA's interactions, there's a strong hint that he and CF7 were the scumteam. 
Attacks Skypal who is attacking CF7.
Defends CF7 pretty hard here and here.
Then, supports the idea of CF7 wagon but leaves vote on Skypal.

Starts d2 by sheeping my sheep of his case on Skypal.
- asks Shadoweh why she wants CF7 lynched. 
Says the roleshens are confusing.  Proposes "someone among sky p/oarfish/cf is/are lying in order to gambit out of a likely lynch"
- asks Shadoweh to claim her role.
Says he wants a CF7 lynch, but asks me to unvote from CF7 in order to come up with other candidates.
Repeats how the roleshens are confusing, but with 5 possible scums instead of 3.
Unvotes Skypal without saying why.
Sheeps Skypal on me, but also considers CF7 possible scum.
- asks Shadoweh to confirm her claim
Here, puts the second vote on my wagon.  After I revote CF7, day ends 4-2-2.

The end result? DNA considered a CF7 lynch a foregone conclusion and consistently tried to lynch anybody else.  Just like what Bard is doing.
He also paid a lot of attention to Shadoweh and her role, presumably because she targeted CF7 n1. 

[Serela]

DNA considered a CF7 lynch a foregone conclusion and consistently tried to lynch anybody else.

Just like what Bard is doing

sooo... by these statements you mean... they tried to lynch someone else because they were more convinced someone else was scum which is normal and actually what happened?

Repeats how the roleshens are confusing, but with 5 possible scums instead of 3.

maybe because he actually found the roleshens very confusing! since he was fairly clear about his thought process here and roleshens are roleshens (you have to actually logic it out, you can't just BS an opinion) I mean I don't get the "this is a scum action not a town action" thing

Says he wants a CF7 lynch, but asks me to unvote from CF7 in order to come up with other candidates.

yes, because he was l-1 but it wasn't particularly close to deadline yet (let's not talk about what happened in the end >_>)


(Anyway I feel pretty great about Bard so far, if he was actually scum he'd deserve the win more than town would anyway) (not that I think he is or I'd vote him, etcetc whatever)

CF7's been really cruisy the whole game, so even if it's d2 "well everyone wants to lynch me anyway I'll give up" and then d3 "well I'm really sick and can't play now" and d1 was, well, we've been over that, it's pretty hard to not want to lynch him. :T But even if that's what we're doing at the end of the today we probably shouldn't waste a day pha-AHAHAHA what am I saying I just want a goddamn flip already ;_;

Double incrimination that apparently SkyPal's paint keeps working after the first night it's applied which means either CF7 or Zakeri should be scum who killed Shadoweh. Zakeri may have improved d2 but also pretty much stopped again after his first posts of the day, and with also considering my d1 attitude about him I'm still not really feeling the towniness there. :T The only thing is he also wanted to lynch CF7, so I don't think they should BOTH be scum, but since CF7 was a really popular desired lynch it's not terribly unlikely to just have been a passive "on the bus since it's happening anyway" either now that I think about it.

No I don't know which one I want to vote right now I just woke up ask me later zzzzz

[O4rfish]

Let me resummarize:
Skypal attacks CF7.
DNA votes Skypal.

I vote Skypal.
DNA votes Skypal.
CF7 becomes the only wagon.
DNA says there are lots of options.
Skypal votes me.
DNA votes me, without explaining why Skypal is now trustworthy.

Zak and I vote CF7.
Bard votes me because CF7 is "too easy"

The pattern is not "DNA was more convinced someone else was scum"
The pattern is "DNA wanted to lynch anybody else instead of CF7"

This would be totally fine if DNA believed CF7 was super Town
except DNA stated several times during d2 that CF7 was suspect, and that he wanted CF7's lynch.
Again, Bard says that CF7 is either scum or really scummy Town, but tries to find someone else to lynch instead.  He makes no effort to tie me to CF7 or whoever else my supposed scumbuddy is. 

I want to lynch CF7 because of the preponderance of evidence we have collected this week (and if someone really wants me to summarize it I will later today).
I have become convinced that DNA/Bard is protecting CF7, and these two opinions together lead me to believe Bard is scum as well. 

Because Town is now playing a 5-2 game* for STUPID REASONS, I will fight anyone who tries to diversify the wagons or weasel out of a lynch for the THIRD TIME.
*this is an assumption; ratios could possibly be EVEN WORSE

and now I see Serela starting to do the same thing.  Really? REALLY?

[Serela]

I think you're oversimplifying.

DNA voting you near day end doesn't mean he thinks SkyPal is town. That's not how reads work or how consolidation/vote meta/getting lynches works.

Tying people together really isn't necessary when you don't have any of their flips yet. If anything, it's generally superfluous noise unless it's close to endgame or it's -really- compelling.

Also lol at you trying to say I'm bad because I'm not turbolynching CF7?

[Serela]

The fact that we no lynched twice is awful but what's even more awful is trying to avoid consideration of any other wagon when there's 50+ hours left. If people can't consider multiple lynch options without no lynching they need to learn how to consolidate. The solution is people being less apathetic players, not playing the game worse. Playing the game worse to account for people being bad at consolidating would be so awful the game may as well just be called off instead.

[Serela]

it's even funnier to be called out for that when I'm probably going to vote cf7 anyway, but you're like "god dammit you think Zakeri is scummy too? DAMMIT SERELA REALLY?" wow I have more than one scum suspect GG

[Raitaki]

Oarfish: Why is DNA/Bard bad for "trying to find someone to lynch other than CF7", but I'm not for basically waltzing into the thread and starting pointing fingers at a bunch of not-CF7 people?

Attacks Skypal who is attacking CF7.
Defends CF7 pretty hard here and here.
Then, supports the idea of CF7 wagon but leaves vote on Skypal.

Point. However, it's also not hard to see why town!DNA would make these parts. A lot of the stuff people post in mafia is to either accuse someone or to blast holes in their logic, so when you're trying to do the latter it's not unusual that you have to do it by attacking their case on someone else, which he did here. Additionally, consider that at the time DNA started to humor the idea of CF7 lynch, the only thing he had really called CF7 out for at that point was the questionable revote, while he had a whole case on SkyPal. Leaving his vote on SkyPal in this situation wouldn't be strange.

Also, Oarfish's giving off minor vibes of misrep/discrediting DNA/Bard again, like he did with SkyPal LD2, what with stuff like "Starts d2 by sheeping my sheep of his case on Skypal".

Serela can you give me a response to this?

Out of curiosity, Serela, what (out) of the 4 choices for roles did you pick before the game?

[Serela]

Miscellaneous

[Raitaki]

Gotcha.

##Unvote
##Vote: Oarfish

Mainly sheeping Bard plus case on DNA/Bard looks like grasping at straws.

[Serela]

getting kinda tempted to do that myself tbh (another reason for me not voting right now; the wagons I most consider voting would be at L-1 already if I did)

[WHMZakeri]

Wish I could say I was too busy playing the four Job fiesta right now, but today I haven't even switched the game on.

I don't think 0-shot role is a gambit to explain away not moving at all during the night, unless his role is straight up untrackable. Even then, he could have gotten caught super easily by the paint.
Also I am genuinely done with the no lynch stagnation thing. Like to the point where I was actually hoping for a four post day.

My action is not an informative one, and I think people paying attention to what happened to your role and everyone else's claims that it'd be easy to guess my role.
I honestly feel like Bard and Raitaki are the only two people who potentially even can benefit from the hours of this day. And they've both already posted enough that I can get some sort of read on them from potential future flips. Plus, DNA was already pretty town.

Oarfish's frantic push on Bard's slot is kind of "weh" and Serela has already debunked it for me.
I admit that DNA not coming back to hammer CF7 was so frustrating, but in his last post he did imply that he wouldn't be coming back.
This is also part of why I don't buy into any argument that follows "Scum wanted the game to end in universal loss via apathy". Because apathy is the cause of this game's problems, not the effect. That and the fact that playing to universal loss is explicitly not playing to scum win

[Sky_Paladin]

Upon reflection, I think we really need a lynch on CF7 to be able to correctly infer anything else about Oarfish or others. 

I'll review the game today - it shouldn't take very long.  But before then! 

I have something very important to announce.

When I said that the person who hit Shadoweh would be covered in yellow paint, I was reaction testing. 

Paint does not spread if the player who is painted died.  I felt there was a tiny window where this could possibly net something useful, eg an outraged player, but nothing espcially happened.  Oh well; nothing ventured, nothing gained.  That said, CF7 and Zak did countervote, so they at least believe it, which may be all the evidence we need. 

I'm outing it now in case a non-yellow scum made the hit on Shadoweh, which would mean scum are already aware of this fact, and not sharing it with town now would be a fatal mistake. 

[Bardiche]

Not incredibly impressed by O4rfish's reaction. Feels like he's unhappy I'm not immediately voting CF7 and being done. In fact, this post with the

Because Town is now playing a 5-2 game* for STUPID REASONS, I will fight anyone who tries to diversify the wagons or weasel out of a lynch for the THIRD TIME.

it just feels like he's trying to stifle the discussion by demanding we just tunnel on CF7.

I get it man, you guys are invested in this and need closure on him. I still want to do more than just sheep you because you'll throw a tantrum otherwise.

[Sky_Paladin]

A large part of my basis of suspecting Oarfish is because he seemed to have advance knowledge that Shadoweh roleblocked CF7.  And I could only see that happening in a few narrow ways. 
1 - He was in a private conversation with CF7 or Shadoweh and knew what had been done. 
2 - He was in a private conversation with Zak and knew what had been done. 
3 - He had some passive role that tipped him off somehow; but he already claimed something else, so that can't be so. 

I could handwave dismiss it as 'just a lucky guess', except the very first thing out of his mouth - before anybody mentioned anything about being roleblocked; and after CF7 had already declared he had targeted Serela, was 'Check if roleblocks stop paint from spreading' and the very next was something like 'presume Shadoweh roleblocked CF7'. 

So that looks bad to me.  Couple that with his supposed non-compulsive ability being used compulsively by the mod and I get a bad taste in my mouth. 

I did think "Sky, is this another gotcha?" before Oarfish or you had entered the game.  Was I just a dog chasing my own tail?  But there just seems to be all these holes in Oarfish's story. 

That aside; there's still the case of somebody redirected me night 1.  Nobody has stepped forward to claim it, so I presume it's a scum action.  I had presumed it was CF7 because I was initially colored yellow and that seems to 100% implicate CF7.  However, the mod contacted me and I got the feeling that he had accidentally colored me yellow because I had targeted Shadoweh (to paint her) and he had forgotten that I'm immune from being splashed by the person I paint. 

I also consider that Dormio died and I got redirected as suspicious.  We were both the two driving forces on the CF7 wagon.  The main opposer to this wagon was DNA who just really wanted his Skypal lynch because (no reason). 

I doubt the scum team thought "Hey, let's set up CF7 to take the fall, zee zee".  I think it's more plausible that they straight up saw Dormio as a great threat, suspected I was likely to have a role that could cause some trouble due to my pressure on CF7, and they thought that they could kill two birds with one stone by redirecting me to Shadoweh. 

I think that there's so many questions around CF7's alignment that we need to straighten that out.  I also think that we really need to find out if Oarfish told the truth when he vanilla/one shot docced CF7, and we can see that if CF7 flips vanilla instead of day-extender, or whatever he supposedly said he was. 

[WHMZakeri]

Okay this seems to be messing up with Sky's speculations so I'm just going to make the claim official.

I'm a one-shot redirector. I can only direct actions away from myself however. I'm pretty sure the reason I got painted was because of the splashback of having technically targeted Shadoweh. This is the reason why I was confused about how I got painted (You targeted me and I slid it off myself to Shadoweh meaning I thought I shouldn't have been hit but I got the backlash from targeting her).

You do have a good point with Dormio being the NK, though.

[Raitaki]

That aside; there's still the case of somebody redirected me night 1.  Nobody has stepped forward to claim it, so I presume it's a scum action.  I had presumed it was CF7 because I was initially colored yellow and that seems to 100% implicate CF7.  However, the mod contacted me and I got the feeling that he had accidentally colored me yellow because I had targeted Shadoweh (to paint her) and he had forgotten that I'm immune from being splashed by the person I paint. 

I'm about 95% sure that Zak was the redirector who targeted Shadoweh N2, what with his recent "you guys should know what role I am", the fact he claimed that he targeted Shadoweh, and the fact that Shadoweh didn't report her action being altered in any way. CF7 claiming he docced Serela when he hadn't even claimed being roleblocking and before knowing that paint only splashes on direct interaction would be really dumb imo. ...Even dumber than the current situation, that is. And that means he didn't necessarily target you, his role might just be something that redirects actions targeting himself onto another player, for example.

I'm not really coming up with anything else, I guess? Right now I'm fine with lynching CF7 early and carrying on to D4, then choose from my other scumreads depending on the flip. If Bard says he has nothing more he wants to discuss before flipping and nobody else objects I'll vote CF7.

Cut by the man admitting it himself

[WHMZakeri]

Also didn't Shadoweh roleblock CF7? I'm pretty certain she claimed having done that, which means CF7 couldn't have done anything night one, much less redirect you or busdrive me and shadoweh.