Volcanic Mafia 2015 - Game Over

[Serela]

rofl seriously

the fact that I don't actually go back and check who the 'confirmed scumteam' (something that could not possibly matter at all) was that I joked about being the third of, is somehow a better reason for SkyPal for stay on me

Yeah my SkyPal vote is steadily getting more and more serious. :T Now I actually desire lynchings.

[Sky_Paladin]

Serela. 

I didn't say why I felt that snip was faked. 

You just assumed that I meant the names.  Just now you told us that you knew the name ordering was incorrect. 

You just confirmed that everything you wrote in 117 was a lie.   

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

I can't get over Serela's avatar. It cracks me up every time I try to read his posts.
Anyway.

My gut reaction would be to sheep cases on Serela because I love easy cases and being lazy, but something is telling me that this isn't really the way to go.
##Vote Sky Paladin
Yeah, I liked my vote more when it was here so I might as well put it back.

i dont like the wording on his #71 that seems to make out that scum has to be either mitsuki or serela

This is actually a thing that I feel is being ignored by virtue of it being within a Rawr post but yeah, I dunno.
I also really dislike Sky Palladium's latest post, #121.
It's like, wow, jumping to extremes there aren't we?
Aren't you being just a little bit overzealous in your attempts to discredit Serela and direct the lynch towards him?
I dunno, just saying.
Like Sky Palladium is going on about how Serela is faking whatever he's saying but it's like, really? You're really going after people's supposed scumteams halfway into D1?
Sky Palladium feels like, to me, someone that's very excited at the prospect of an easy case. Enough so that they went just a little bit overboard on how significant some points of their case really are.

[Serela]

You just assumed that I meant the names.  Just now you told us that you knew the name ordering was incorrect. 

You just confirmed that everything you wrote in 117 was a lie.

what the actual fuck are you going on about because I have no idea

I still haven't checked it because it still doesn't matter, but I guess it wasn't the right one? This still means literally nothing about anything.

[Mitsuki]

I thought something about Serela on the subway but now I forgot, and I feel like it was something important to say. Ugh

I see Oarfish's point on Bard here and I'm inclined to agree with it. And no, it's not contradictory with what I already pointed out. I still think Bardiche's agressiveness in this post is scummy, but I'm inclined to agree with Oarfish otherwise because Bardiche's actual content has been lackluster and he clearly hasn't pushed his case much, as his town!self would.

Defending my waifus on my next post

[Mitsuki]

I think the SkyPal cases are dumb and based on him being weird rather than him being scummy. I don't see how saying you're not 100% sure someone is scum is scummy, I'm never 100% sure about someone being scum and sometimes I say so.
I don't have any read on SkyPal myself but I get a bad feeling about how he's being cased, so I'd rather not see him lynched.

However, @Sky Paladin: which are your thoughts on the game other than "Serela is scum"?

re:SkyPal: Both your reasons are ridiculous (I maintain that I believe mitsuki's question was basically unanswerable to any significant degree and I just addressed the other) so I don't really see a reason to unvote.

Not giving my opinion on SkyPal's reasoning because honestly I already forgot about it. However, please explain how ridiculous = scummy.

The problem isn't that he's fine with the votes (that would be hypocritical of me), but that he's fine with the votes on Mitsuki AND Mitsuki's vote at the same time.

Sorry for this because I know it's awful when people question your reads without believing you're scum for it, but I don't think this makes NNR scummy. How would townreading both me and the people casing me help scum!NNR? The way he went about it wasn't flashy at all and his explanation was rather simple, so I don't see the scum intent at all, not to mention scum wouldn't want to throw random townreads.

I'm townreading NNR myself because I feel his post here was good, even if there's stuff I don't agree with, and I see why he'd be like that as town.

[SB]

I don't like SB's case on Mitsuki at all, considering pretty much every line of questioning is going to be empty at this point in the game.

What didn't you like about the initial case? I asked her what she was trying to get out of the question and when she didn't give a solid answer I figured I'd press it because it felt like scum trying to look helpful because of the lack of a goal.

That being said, I think that I misread something in one of Mitsuki's more recent posts in hindsight. I'm a little less bothered about her now, but I'd like to know who she's prioritising out of Bard/Serela now because it sounded like she was unsure earlier.

Bard, I'm not asking you to look into every early post or anything, but considering how much you joke about dayvigging Serela (and more recently in the case of Zak's lurking post, attack bad play) it's kind of strange how you let it slide. Even though there are others in the game who don't have many reads, it still feels like theirs are more substantial then a one liner

Serela still feels too ditsy to be scum (hooray meta) and I don't think his content has been scummy either way. Still not sure about Sky but I don't think going after a supposed slip like that is out of character for him, although I'd like him to give reads on people that aren't Serela and Eli to give some on players that aren't Sky.

I'm fine with a Dormio lynch because I feel like what he's done has been unmemorable but I don't really have anything to add on that front.

I feel like my scumreads are weak this game but idk.

[Bardiche]

Cases on me:
"Bard isn't as zealous as normal!"
This is a lazy stance to take. Also an incredibly easy stance. Mostly lazy though, but also opportunistic because it's impossible to defend against. If I suddenly launched into hyper-activity, I'd probably get shit flung my way about suddenly being too aggressive or whatever.

The fact that Serela didn't do anything worth pointing out with regards to his recent posts doesn't mean that his earliest posts suddenly stopped being scummy.

I think this is an erroneous stance to take, because future posts can shed light on whether the person's acting in scum or town interests. Mitsuki's clearly not interested in actually thinking about why things are being done and is happy to just jump onto whatever is being done at face-value. Given my spat with her the last game over Sky Paladin meta, it seems wholly weird that she suddenly has no interest to look for Serela's meta or even begin thinking about whether Serela's actions make sense from a scum point of view.

Frankly, unless you intend to claim Serela was scum refuging in audacity, I don't see how you can even make a case on him and believe in it. The case on me hinges entirely on my motivation levels and is garbage as a result.


People making scumteams on Day 1. Motk pls.


I stopped wanting to dayvig Serela ever since he actually made an effort to waffle less and be more direct in his intentions. Sorry! My views of Serela change with time!

[Mitsuki]

So who is scum other than me? Got any townreads?

[NekoNekoRex]

Would it be easier to explain "Between Mitsuki and Bard, I don't feel either one is scummy, and their vote reasons seem okay. One of them is wrong, but I don't know which."?
Anyway I figured out that I think Bard is more wrong then Mitsuki in any case, once Bard started going into meta and using that to question Mitsuki, I don't like meta and I don't like how Bard is using it.

Anyway I'm starting to side with Sky Paladin now, he's sticking to his guns despite having been wishy-washy and now Serela is just futzing around and posting fluff without contributing.Finding votes on you weird is one thing, but spending posts making up a bunch of shit to question votes on you and then proceeding to do fuckall is another.

On the other hand Skypaladin's recent posts are also really weird. I really wish he'd be a bit more clear on what he's voting about.

I'm starting to notice a degradation in reasons to vote Skypal as well, a close eye should be kept on the newer people to his wagon (ie Dormio, Serela) so the wagon doesn't snowball for bad reasons and that scum on the wagon might be outed. That said I think Dormio's vote is lazy and uncommitted.

There's a lot here to look at now, but I'm going to go with Serela for the time being. ##Unvote ##Vote Serela

[WHMZakeri]

I thought I did but it's probably not very clear now that I think about how I presented it.
The reason for my vote is because of the set of paraphrased quotes. I don't like the way people are handling Sky Paladin and I think Dormio is the worst offender.

FWIW I think Skypal justified his vote, and he's stuck to it. I would point out that he is usually bad at explaining things to other people.

This is basically how I feel word for word. Sky is notoriously bad at explaining himself in ways that people can look at and go "Oh, that's benign".
So I feel like the line of questions asking him to describe the validity of his votes compared to his "Strong scumreads" that shouldn't exist in the first place looks bad.
I feel like Dormio knows this and could have been taking advantage of this fact by asking an intentionally confusing question.

And Dormio's backpedal doesn't make me think this read is any less true because he doesn't address any part other than being factually wrong.

Also this votecount is a lot better. And I'm even already voting the person I wanted to, so it's super cool. Thanks Huhwhat~

[Mitsuki]

Yeah I have an actual reply to Bardiche too

Cases on me:
"Bard isn't as zealous as normal!"
This is a lazy stance to take. Also an incredibly easy stance. Mostly lazy though, but also opportunistic because it's impossible to defend against. If I suddenly launched into hyper-activity, I'd probably get shit flung my way about suddenly being too aggressive or whatever.

Let's just leave meta aside because I realised I don't want to bring it up your meta after all, since the game I was thinking about was painful to you.
Your reaction is still scummy because it is an overreaction and you didn't go ahead and answer with your thoughts on what SB said, you just turned it into a personal attack. I believe this is what scum would do, and if someone else had been the one to do that I'd be voting for them.

I think this is an erroneous stance to take, because future posts can shed light on whether the person's acting in scum or town interests. Mitsuki's clearly not interested in actually thinking about why things are being done and is happy to just jump onto whatever is being done at face-value.

I'm interested in Serela's new posts, and I'll comment on them when I feel there's something worth saying. If I don't find anything worth saying, I won't. What is wrong with that? Do I have to be commenting on every little thing he says just because he's my scumread?
Also I'm trying to understand people's actions and motivations so saying that I'm taking stuff at face vaule is outright untrue.

Given my spat with her the last game over Sky Paladin meta, it seems wholly weird that she suddenly has no interest to look for Serela's meta or even begin thinking about whether Serela's actions make sense from a scum point of view.

First, I think Serela is scummy regardless of meta. Second, I'm not ignoring Serela's meta and in fact I am actually looking for it right now. Please stop misreping everything I say.


It feels like Bardiche is painting me as scummy but it may be bias because it's a case on myself. I'd appreciate it if people game their thoughts on the matter.

@SB: to be honest I still don't know who is scummier. I'm inclined to believe Bardiche is but I'm not sure.

[Mitsuki]

@SB: You said that you see nothing wrong with Serela's reads, yet Serela has no original reads. How does that affect (or not) your read on him?
Also it'd be cool if you could specify which Serela meta you're townreading him for

[BT]

Hmm.

Major point number one is that I don't buy into Mitsuki's cases. Started with how the initial post-RVS case on Serela turned serious with the "I don't think town would have done this" rhetoric, which I thought was a stretch. (Serela's vote was weak, but what made it not fit in as a town vote?) Then filling up the rest with "he's had no original content still" is easy. Sure Serela hasn't been impressive so far, but I don't think Mitsuki's trip to get to that conclusion was authentic. I don't see the meat driving the suspicion. Looking at lack-of-content and hinging on an earlygame thing is surface level and easy for scum to push.

Then there's the Bard suspicion which I don't get. If there's something scummy about Bard right now, it's that he's being short on information. So SB's meta examples are about that, and some of what Mitsuki says is about that, but other times I feel like there's this attempt at turning Bard's questioning of Mitsuki into something it's not. This is harder to explain because it's "my gut says there's nothing wrong with Bard's questions, so I was bothered by Mitsuki's case". Some of the points had me going for a loop, like the one that criticized Bard for attacking SB and then admitting that SB wasn't necessarily suspicious for it. There's nothing bad about that.

Major point number two is Sky's Serela push. First there was the overreaction to SB's question (notice the question and what Sky answered) and then this:

In my experience, scum!Serela tends to tunnel/out her buddies pretty early, so for her to claim scum is worth investigating by flip.  It's certainly the best thing I've seen so far this phase. 

Which for one thing is malarkey, and two is hard to reconcile with Sky's usual silliness because it's not like there weren't other things going on. For him to stick to scumteam flip magic and "aha I caught the lying scum" instead of looking at the kind of weak votes on his wagon or the entire Mitsuki / Bardiche debacle, it's way too detached. He does actually address his voters but I didn't get the feeling he was interested in voting them, just defending against weak votes on his wagon and adding the word "worrying". Instead of being proactive and focusing on other things we have this want to stick to unhelpful Serela hypotheses, which fits scum MO a lot better.

Other things I'm less sure on. I had a really bad read on Rexy's first serious post but then other posts gave me an okay feeling, so there's that. I don't feel like lynching Serela or Dormio. Slight gut.

##Vote Mitsuki

[NekoNekoRex]

It would be kinda nice to hear from skypal and serela their opinions on other people instead of tunneling eachother

[ActionDan]

I forgot about this game.

[Mitsuki]

I'm at that point where I've been questioned so much about the stuff that I do when I feel that people are just misunderstanding me over and over again that I just don't care anymore. I'm going to make a summary post of my Bardiche and Serela cases to see if people finally get what I mean, and hopefully it will clarify stuff, because I'm tired of not doing my own thing to spend time replying, and I'm not doing it again.

I've been reading Serela's D1 posts in other games and I almost did that thing where I was going to go all confirmation-bias with meta yet again.
However, there are things about his attitude that are different between his town and scum games. As town, he generally feels more open to share thoughts and he doesn't seem concerned at all about his play, even if he thinks his reads are weak. As scum he seems like he is trying too hard to appear as if he doesn't care, and his tone seems more concerned and agressive.

I think Serela's play this game fits his scum play (no shit). This is an example of a post where I feel he's been trying too hard to appear as if he doesn't care, and this is an example of a post where I think his tone seems concerned. It'd probably better to read more than just the posts that I linked because it's not a single-post issue.

inb4 people don't get what I mean again

[ActionDan]

##vote: dormio

And refa and elison. 

[Mitsuki]

@Dan: who are you townreading?

[ActionDan]

You and neko.  and sky

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Day 1.3 - Votals
Sky_Paladin (4) - Elieson, Dr Rawr, Serela, Dormio
Dormio (3) - O4rfish, Zakeri, ActionDan
Bardiche (2) - SB, Mitsuki
Mitsuki (2) - Bardiche, BT
Serela (2) - Sky_Paladin, NekoRex
NekoRex (1) - Refa
Not Voting: None!

You have 23 hours and 24 minutes remaining in the day. With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

[Mitsuki]

IT BEGINS

Why Serela is scum: the FAQ

Q: So Mitsuki, what about your initial vote? What exactly is scummy about not having your own reads at that point of the game?

A: Right, there is nothing wrong with not having your own suspicions when you're just out of RVS, and sheeping is not a scumtell either. However, I checked Serela's post and thought about his purpose when placing that vote, and it seems scummy. When you're town what you want to do is push your reads, right? Specially if you're trying to get out of RVS. But I don't see how Serela was trying to push Dormio, to me it just felt like he just made a post and left it there.
But there's more; the content the vote was based on is so weak that I don't see why Serela would find it sheepworthy in the first place! That's why I asked him to say it in his own words, since I wanted to see his real thoughts on the matter.
So I got the facts together, and I saw that the intentions underlying his post were trying to appear as contributing, instead of pushing a case he believed in! This is why I cased him.

Q: What about all of your replies, all of them?

A: Nothing new about those, I'm just repeating what I've already said in my previous posts, wording it in different ways.

Q: What role does Serela's meta play on your case?

A: Until recently, none! I didn't know much of his meta. However, I finally took my time to check it and here are my thoughts on it. Overall, his attitude seems concerned and reactive to me, like his scum self, instead of genuinely carefree like his usual town self.

Q: What do you think about Serela's more recent posts? No real thoughts on anything else by him?

A: Now I do have thoughts on his newer posts! We're at the point where a lot of stuff has happened, yet all he's done, barring his reasoning on SkyPal, is sheeping other players. This seems scummy to me, since it's easy to find reads as town, and it's much harder to get reads as scum. Furthermore, town!Serela would have no problem in admitting he has no reads, as evidenced by his legendary sayings of "I'm not sure, everybody seems like town". To me it looks like he's forcing himself to have reads, instead of coming up with those naturally.
Regarding his reasoning on SkyPal, all I have to say is that the vote looks too reactionary, so it also seems scummy to me.
I also think Serela's been laying low and not actively trying to engage in discussion, which is pretty scummy by itself!

Q: Oh, I see! So your case is pretty much based on his attitude and the purpose of his posts, right?

A: Yeah!

[SB]

Too sleepy to content, but Mitsuki why are you spending more time casing Serela who you aren't voting instead of Bard when both are at equal votes?

[Mitsuki]

I'm making my post on Bardiche right now, just be patient
It will probably not be finished until tomorrow though

[Sky_Paladin]

Serela is scum because it is proven that she lied as the basis for her vote against me.  When this was raised, she responded with how dare you rather than an explanation of how I was wrong, as well as continuing to backpedal away from her 117. 

We also know she faked her vote on Dormio. 

I think Dormio has to be scum because his case was "Sky is voting for Mitsuki" when I was voting for Serela, and when questioned, put his vote back there again without basis.  Yes I am aware he referred to Rawr, but that's not his misrep, that's Rawr's. 

I'm kind of interested in how both Dormio and Serela seem to want to mix Mitsuki and I up. 

***

However, @Sky Paladin: which are your thoughts on the game other than "Serela is scum"?

I went to bed thinking "Obv scumteam is Serela/Dormio/Mitsuki" because Serela is scum, and she just told us that her buddies are Dormio and Mitsuki, but this morning with a coffee in hand and looking at your case on Serela I'm less certain about number 3.  I was mightily annoyed that nobody considered that 117 and 120 is Serela admitting that she's scum, but w/e, we can do this the hard way too.  I'll echo SB's cut though, that I'm expecting a case on Bard. 

Since I'm quite sure Serela is scum now, I'm dubious of BT, who is questioning both Mitsuki and myself for our Serela-pressure.  This means at some point I'll be deciding between Mitsuki/BT since I don't see them as likely scum buddies. 

I generally like Refa's posting.  I think this is the first time Dan's ever town read me, so that's nice.  I'd like Eli to post now that her vote has been challenged and to see what reasons she gives for maintaining/abandoning it. 

I need to see more of Zak/NNR/Oarfish to get an opinion although no alerts at this point. 

I get where people are saying Bard is being abrasive/different but I don't see how this makes him scum.  People may have some kind of meta playstyle that they often do as town/scum.  I basically ignore any supposed town!meta since if you know people percieve you as town when you do xyz you will always do xyz. 

If you have a scum meta, though, and you do something in that, I'm going to look in to it.  Because town aren't going to fake scum!meta.  If you can explain how Bard's conduct fits better to his scum meta, or better yet how Bard's content is actually scum-motivated content, I'll be interested. 

[Serela]

I've been too trapped in a vortex of eternal suffer to want to post for real after this morning (I'm still going to soon, aka not in this post) but why must every single game I play with SkyPaladin turn into "SkyPaladin I can't even understand anything about your case and every point is something that isn't actually happening in reality" :S Every single one. All of them. I don't even know how to respond to his case anymore. The stuff he said didn't happen.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

I'm on a phone right now so I haven't really read the thread but I did glimpse through S_P's latest post and it amused me quite a lot.

[Sky_Paladin]

I'll break it down for you. 

When asked to explain why you voted for Dormio, you explained in three posts effectively that you weren't sheeping SB/Oarfish, but you had some totally legit reason to vote Dormio, but couldn't say what it was. 
You didn't have a reason to vote Dormio.  You lied about your vote. 

When asked to explain why you voted for me, you said this:

It's kind of mindboggling the amount of times I see people at least semi-seriously bringing up "serela claimed scumbuddies w/skypal and mitsuki for one sentence and then retracted it as obviously being completely unserious in the next sentence" as apparently an actual reason for them to continue voting me, does it seriously bother people that much? I mean literally claiming scum is mildly annoying but in this case it was obviously taken to the nth tier as I was going along with the unserious rvs pinned scumteam and went "yeah, no." immediately.

When the only people who said anything like this was Oarfish and myself.  So this isn't the basis for your vote. 

You actually said in 117:

I don't actually remember if it was skypal and mitsuki but it's -so ridiculous this is being talked about so much- that I really don't even care who it was and it doesn't matter anywhere near enough to come near being worth bothering to check.

You got the 'scum team' wrong and insisted that it didn't matter.  If it didn't matter, you shouldn't have brought it up.  You actually said you didn't know if the names were right. 

When I said that this was fake -

the fact that I don't actually go back and check who the 'confirmed scumteam' (something that could not possibly matter at all) was that I joked about being the third of, is somehow a better reason for SkyPal for stay on me

You believed I was talking about the names.  I wasn't.  I was saying that the basis of your vote was fake.  You were the one who told us that you knew you had lied about the basis of your vote. 

So this isn't why you voted me. 

re:SkyPal: Both your reasons are ridiculous (I maintain that I believe mitsuki's question was basically unanswerable to any significant degree and I just addressed the other) so I don't really see a reason to unvote.

I didn't ask you to change your vote or unvote.  I asked you to explain your vote. 

You didn't, and can't.  You lied about every one of your votes this game. 

That is why you are scum. 

[Serela]

When asked to explain why you voted for Dormio, you explained in three posts effectively that you weren't sheeping SB/Oarfish, but you had some totally legit reason to vote Dormio, but couldn't say what it was. 

wh-what

When the only people who said anything like this was Oarfish and myself.

wh-wh-what

If it didn't matter, you shouldn't have brought it up.

The point was that it didn't matter so it's ridiculous that people are acting like it is, which -is- worth bringing up, and-

You were the one who told us that you knew you had lied about the basis of your vote.

So this isn't why you voted me. 

You didn't, and can't.  You lied about every one of your votes this game.

I can't even, I have lost my ability to even, I will see you all later when I make an actual post but oh my god

[Sky_Paladin]

If you have time to post gifs, you have time to explain your votes. 

If you have time to post paragraphs of random babble, you have time to explain your votes. 

If you have time to post three times on one page how you don't understand what other people are saying, you have time to explain your votes.