Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -13F

[Kirin no Sora]

They've had their effects switched for awhile now, as far as in game description is concerned (actual in game description, not just the translation patch). I don't remember if the bug about the effects not actually working was fixed or not though.

By "switched", do you mean that it says that Suwako should be in the back and Kanako in the front for their skills? Because if it does say that, then that proves that the skills were bugged in the first place. (Also, if it does say that, then the wiki should reflect that.)

...perhaps someone should just list here which spells and skills are not working as they're supposed to, so that the changes can be made on the wiki more easily due to the info being available on hand. I would more than happy to put the changes in so long as someone can provide the info about the spells and skills as they are now...

On an unrelated note, although Tenshi is fine as she is now, I still feel like I should say something about her in terms of skills. Namely, that she should be given Guts, should the unexpected happen. Since Tenshi is a tank that uses defensive power to block as much damage as possible, having something that can allow her to survive something that can pierce said defences would be useful.
...And I just realized that her "Kusanagi's Former Owner" skill can easily be activated by the Guardian's "Shield Defence" spell, since it inflicts a Speed debuff on the user, which is needed to activate the skill in the first place. The Guardian's skill set would be helpful for Tenshi in the first place, since being a defensive tank is half of what Tenshi is about...

[jaxter0987]

By "switched", do you mean that it says that Suwako should be in the back and Kanako in the front for their skills? Because if it does say that, then that proves that the skills were bugged in the first place. (Also, if it does say that, then the wiki should reflect that.)

...perhaps someone should just list here which spells and skills are not working as they're supposed to, so that the changes can be made on the wiki more easily due to the info being available on hand. I would more than happy to put the changes in so long as someone can provide the info about the spells and skills as they are now...

...And I just realized that her "Kusanagi's Former Owner" skill can easily be activated by the Guardian's "Shield Defence" spell, since it inflicts a Speed debuff on the user, which is needed to activate the skill in the first place. The Guardian's skill set would be helpful for Tenshi in the first place, since being a defensive tank is half of what Tenshi is about...

Ignore what I said about their skills.
In my daze of lack of sleep or something, I misread "right" and "left" respectively for Kanako and Suwako.

I think I've said this before but I'd be fine with Suwako's skill being the far left because that means you have to have excellent party management to know when you can safely take advantage of the damage boost. I certainly hope that those skill descriptions are mistakes though. Best case scenario would have to be that the translators just plain didn't fix the lines and Peso already fixed the issue.

Suwako should definitely be rightmost slot for sure but Kanako is not quite tanky enough for leftmost spot in my opinion. If she was built that tanky, then even with the damage boost from the skill, I don't think she'd be doing any damage.

I'd rather just raise Tenshi's Paralysis resistance while not raising her Heavy resistance and let State of Enlightment activate Kusanagi's Former Owner. She needs the debuff resistance on my team since I'm using Hina, but in general, I think all tanks need debuff resistance. Even if you don't care about their attack stats, losing defenses on a tank isn't fun and arguably the worse debuff for a tank is a Speed debuff. Speed debuff limits your switching potential, limits your regeneration (Byakuren, Mokou, Komachi), and just limits your usefulness overall (Byakuren spreading god buffs, Komachi debuffing enemies with Avici) and limits all the options for subclass use.

[Kaitani]

  I certainly hope that those skill descriptions are mistakes though. Best case scenario would have to be that the translators just plain didn't fix the lines and Peso already fixed the issue.

Well right now the translated skill descriptions are correct. Suwako gets a damage boost in the left spot and Kanako in the right spot. Not only do their respective skill buffs appear when they're on the right position, I tested to see the damage difference myself.

I think I've said this before but I'd be fine with Suwako's skill being the far left because that means you have to have excellent party management to know when you can safely take advantage of the damage boost.

If you consider that these abilities are working as intended, it truly promotes Kanako's role as the sturdy nuker in the 4th spot but also Suwako's role as the hit-and-run nuker where position doesn't really matter anyway.

EDIT: So I thought I'd make a guide on the two boss fights missing from the wiki, Guardian of the crystals and Desire-Eating Demon, but it didn't go so well. Against the Guardian with a lvl 152 party and ~100 voile levels my party just explodes in a few turns and even with heavy buffs on my nukers barely made a dent on the Guardian. I don't think it would be much of a guide if it said "buff Flandre and nuke them out of orbit" or "with lvl 200 party it's much easier". Does anyone have some tips to make that fight doable without resorting to overbuffing? Though I suppose my lvl 100 in voile levels is way too low at this point in game, but it cost several million to get ALL the characters up to that level and I'm rather broke now.

[yoshicookiezeus]

So I've finally gotten around to playing this game. Up to 12F, and I'm really enjoying it so far (which I suppose isn't really a surprise, since the first one is one of my favourite games of all time and this is basically the same except with more convenient features :V).

But anyway, I was wondering if anyone had any tips for beating the 12F boss that isn't the mirror at the challenge level? I can sort of survive it for a bit by using a party full of physically defensive people and keeping everyone buffed, but said people don't do very much damage (especially since I pretty much need them fully built for DEF to survive) and eventually my tanks go down to it either spamming the piercing multitarget move or following the HP-to-1 attack with something that goes through my defenses. And the thing's insane speed makes the usual switch-in switch-out style nuking almost impossible to pull off.

I suppose I could just go grinding for a bit, but since I've managed to beat every other boss so far at the challenge level, it feels like sort of a shame to break the streak now.

[Kaitani]

I found that boss to be the hardest boss in the main game, though mostly because your party options are rather limited at that stage in game. If you struggle in keeping up with the boss you could check if your voile levels are up/close to the challenge level, atleast on your key characters. Since the boss is weak against dark, you could see which of your dark attackers can hit the hardest. Kasen is pretty good in that fight for example. If you still can't beat it, you could post the party you're using for some improvement suggestions.

[jaxter0987]

If you consider that these abilities are working as intended, it truly promotes Kanako's role as the sturdy nuker in the 4th spot but also Suwako's role as the hit-and-run nuker where position doesn't really matter anyway.

See my problem is that with Suwako's skill working that way, it affects tanks that are supposed to always stay in the fight (Byakuren, Mokou, and technically Kasen if you wanted to build her tanky and just use her spells for the effects).

I always thought of Kanako as a third slot attacker. Because of her bulk, she doesn't need to be switched out as often.

My general theory behind LoT mechanics is that:
4th slot sees the most switches because 4th slot is for glass cannons,
3rd slot sees less switches because its for bulkier attackers / bulky supports,
2nd slot for secondary tank / dedicated bulky defensive buffers and thus sees even less switches, and
1st slot should not be switched at all with your dedicated tank being there.

Of course certain battles and certain situations might call for some temporary adjustments but overall, that's how I always imagined the front line party.
In my team that I posted, my front line for bosses would typically be Komachi, Byakuren, Aya, Eiki / Kaguya. Though obviously I never start the battle out that way because screw Flowing Hellfire for those who've played LoT1.

So I've finally gotten around to playing this game. Up to 12F, and I'm really enjoying it so far (which I suppose isn't really a surprise, since the first one is one of my favourite games of all time and this is basically the same except with more convenient features :V).

But anyway, I was wondering if anyone had any tips for beating the 12F boss that isn't the mirror at the challenge level? I can sort of survive it for a bit by using a party full of physically defensive people and keeping everyone buffed, but said people don't do very much damage (especially since I pretty much need them fully built for DEF to survive) and eventually my tanks go down to it either spamming the piercing multitarget move or following the HP-to-1 attack with something that goes through my defenses. And the thing's insane speed makes the usual switch-in switch-out style nuking almost impossible to pull off.

I suppose I could just go grinding for a bit, but since I've managed to beat every other boss so far at the challenge level, it feels like sort of a shame to break the streak now.

Let me go try to fight the boss now with my current team and see if I have any new insight I didn't already put in the wiki. My random team consisting of characters I didn't use in my first two playthroughs seems to be able to take all the bosses so far at challenge level but I haven't fought the two on the 12F yet.

Edit: Well I just got reminded that the game rounds down when you have 1 HP and are hit with Half Moon Slash which cuts your HP in half. This is going to be fun...
Edit2: Mirror was easy enough with a couple of Monks. Still have no idea how I'm going to beat the Magatama with my current party though.

[Yookie]

I've noticed that in LoT2 it's become quite viable to play a more stay-in style. In LoT1 I ran the (what I perceive as) standard hit&run tactic with 2 tanks in the front for switching
but in 2 I actually use only 1 tank who sits in the first slot and switches/does her stuff and have a bulky attacker in the second slot.
I usually have Kanako in my party who occupies the fourth slot and the third one is for switching.
Hit&run is still perfectly usable, as seen with Flan and Suwako but not necessarily the only thing you can do.

This of course depends heavily on your party-setup and given that especially Yuuka (who works perfectly fine in the second slot) and to a lesser degree Sanae & Kanako are staple party members for me that's what I go for.
Which is kinda ironic, given that switching doesn't cost anything anymore. :V
I'm just not a fan of the glass-cannon characters and happen to like the bulkier ones.

[Ghaleon]

Eh, I had characters "staying in" alot of the time in lot1, often changing them to shorten times between a full atb attack and/or recover mana moreso than survive better. It's just most people MAKE their characters glass cannons in lot1 by spending their points in attack stats instead of defense, which certainly makes trash easier but I find it's actually easier to do bosses at under levels by being defensive specced on most characters.

I almost find it nearly the opposite in 2 though because 2 almost requires you to use glass cannon type characters or else you'll hit for 0 on many of the later high def bosses.

[yoshicookiezeus]

I found that boss to be the hardest boss in the main game, though mostly because your party options are rather limited at that stage in game. If you struggle in keeping up with the boss you could check if your voile levels are up/close to the challenge level, atleast on your key characters. Since the boss is weak against dark, you could see which of your dark attackers can hit the hardest. Kasen is pretty good in that fight for example. If you still can't beat it, you could post the party you're using for some improvement suggestions.

Well, skill points was at least partially the problem, since I kind of have a bad tendency to hoard them for later; after spending 50,000 mostly on defenses I finally managed to take it down. Still took like twenty more attempts, though, even with a party full of defensive characters. If the boss decides to put someone's HP to 1 and follow it up with the multitarget piercing or HP halving attack before you get to move, there's not a whole lot you can do other than hope the target was someone you didn't need very much.

Also I think the wiki might be wrong on how the boss's speed increase works? Rather than a flat increase when it uses the HP version of Djinn Storm, it seems like it keeps increasing over the span of the entire battle.

Gotta love how you can reassign levelup bonuses, though. HP-build Minoriko actually did a fairly decent job at surviving (except for the winning run, where she kind of got hit by two consecutive single-target attacks in the third slot early on).

[Axel Ryman]

So out of curiosity, how is one supposed to defeat the post game bosses without going over the challenge level? And without Diva Aya. Cause so far they seem way too hard, or I'm just not doing something properly. Could be my party choices.

[yoshicookiezeus]

I think I kind of broke 12F Tenshi. :V After all of my spending on defense for the Magatama, Meiling could sit in the first slot tanking swords all day with the help of heals and buffs from Minoriko, while Nitori could sit in the fourth slot and fire away all day with her not-Linear Gun.

[Serela]

So out of curiosity, how is one supposed to defeat the post game bosses without going over the challenge level?

It seems pretty required to make use of the tools you're given to debuff basically every boss heavily for the whole fight (Reisen and/or Sheer Force and/or Hina, etc), hit weaknesses with powerful attacks, use defense-ignoring passives if needed, Byakuren god buffer, the whole shebang. I beat the first half of the Shadow bosses fairly, but then I said "you know this really isn't worth the effort and these bosses are getting crazy for my party" and started powerlevelling. I didn't have a setup that let me really utilize debuffs on resistant bosses.

I remember Second Sun having lots of selfbuffs though. And Maribel's passive didn't seem quite as overwhelmingly helpful as I'd hoped it would be. Maybe if I actually had just -let- it pile on the buffs though...

Videos of someone beating the deformed bosses, Second Sun, Guardian of the Crystals, and Shadow Magatama/Mirror at challenge level -without- abusing any game mechanics or cheapshotting with crazy-powered Flan or something would be neat. (Desire Eating Demon and The Great C aren't all that bad imo)

[Kaitani]

I managed to beat the Second Sun without Flandre at challenge level (average level = challenge level) using 10 characters. I basically chose only characters that could survive its attacks which made the party swapping harmless, made sure I had loads of debuffers and healers and just smacked it down. I couldn't beat the Guardian without Flandre though, but still did at challenge level and without any crazy overbuffing (max lvl 140 in voile).

[Serela]

using 10 characters

This counts as abuse of game mechanics for the purpose I had meant, since it lets you put everyone else at about 30 levels higher, which is a -LOT-. I mean, that being said, I totally did the same thing myself, but I was talking about beating the bosses actually using the challenge level as a guideline, not skirting around it with loopholes :V

And I assume it's what Axel Ryman meant.

tl;dr it's only to be expected that it's not too hard to handle the boss's attacks when your levels are 30 higher than intended.

[ZXNova]

My first two slots are usually the tanky slots. Komachi is my dedicated tank herbalist debuffer who rarely ever switches, and 2nd slot is Meiling, my healer bulky attacker main switcher. 3rd and 4th slots tend to be pretty various. 3rd slot is usually the support buffer -tank healer- (Eirin, Minoriko), but sometimes it's the glass cannon, and sometimes the support buffer healer is in the 4th slot.

My usual first 4 are Komachi, Meiling, Reimu, and Aya. Afterwards I switch out Aya or Reimu and begin my setup.

[DarkAtma]

i found "C" the hardest one for me, because my usual tactic was buffing attackers and brute force trought the fight, i am not the kind of person that relies on debuffs/ailments for bosses, but had to use several toxicologists for that one,another thing i noticed was NOBODY could damage the bosses except buffed remilia/flandre, you know something is wrong when even kasen/ marisa deal almost nothing or 0

[Kaitani]

beating the bosses actually using the challenge level as a guideline, not skirting around it with loopholes :V

I suppose you could boost your voile levels to the Hard mode limits to stand a better chance at surviving at challenge level, but getting enough money to do that takes some time. My guess is that the developers balanced the post game battles with the Hard mode rules in mind, since with 100 voile levels on challenge level against the Guardian of the crystals I couldn't keep up with the damage no matter what I tried. If the enemies would stick to the harmless moves it'd be alright, but in a long fight like that there will eventually come that one nasty nuke that finishes you off. Then there's boosting the expensive resistances, which don't really have a limit other than your wallet...

[DarkAtma]

lets see if they introduce lilith enemies in the post (easy to kill and money bags)

[Ghaleon]

Im still at floor 16 on my playthru so itll be a week or so before i start post game i think. But looking forward to attempting dem post game bosses at challenge level.

Only problem is that flan IS in my group because im testing the sdm skill's use (so far both patchy and remi seem far far more viable with it than they did in my first game). I have no intention of spoiling her by spending more skillpoints on her, or giving her all my bet gear (though she will likely be my prime choice for items with stats like scourge and/or genocide cannon).

Are these post game bosses like the final boss where everything that doesnt ignore defense or is super op like a stacked nitori hits for 0?

[ZXNova]

Im still at floor 16 on my playthru so itll be a week or so before i start post game i think. But looking forward to attempting dem post game bosses at challenge level.

Only problem is that flan IS in my group because im testing the sdm skill's use (so far both patchy and remi seem far far more viable with it than they did in my first game). I have no intention of spoiling her by spending more skillpoints on her, or giving her all my bet gear (though she will likely be my prime choice for items with stats like scourge and/or genocide cannon).

Are these post game bosses like the final boss where everything that doesnt ignore defense or is super op like a stacked nitori hits for 0?

Shadow Mirror, Shadow Blue Giant Oni

[Serela]

-Some- of the bosses are, and since I didn't have great def debuff capability I don't know how many of the bosses that pretty much fixes the issue for; but you pretty much do NEED either ignoring attacks or def/mnd debuffs worth using on resistant bosses for whatever reason. Kogasa (esp. with a tank build and Hexer), Hina, and Reisen are pretty good candidates... but Marisa/Utsuho Hexers could work if you were already using one of them anyway.

Or Eientei team with their mnd ignore passives. Or Shiki. There's options! Not sure quite how effective Meiling's Mountain Breaker works out. The monk skill doesn't quite cut it, partially due to several of the bosses in question having very high NTR resist.

Even Nitori/Flan have trouble scratching some, when overlevelled, so just sheer power doesn't work.

Just having Flan in your party isn't an issue (my lavaeteinn wasn't -ridiculous-) but if you do stuff like super pump her ATK and then use double blazing passive and/or full SDM team bonus then uh she's apparently a completely gamebreaking thing.

[Ghaleon]

sdm buff is good but I can't imagine it's game breaking good even on flan unless your flan's skill level in atk is like 2X higher than anyone else's highest skilled up stat in addition to sdm or whatever, but I'm not at that point yet so who knows.

edit: anyone know if hina's spinning around more than usual applies a 30% buff to her stats? like if she has -50% everything which is good for her if you have curse reversal, will she actually gimp herself by turning em all into -20%?

[Yookie]

That skill is detrimental to her keeping her debuffs up. It will work against them.

[Ghaleon]

That skill is detrimental to her keeping her debuffs up. It will work against them.

blah, thanks.

At floor 19 now yay.. 16-18 were alot less work than I assumed... I mean I did them before but that was some time ago and I forgot how long they took, but yeah, they're pretty quick (though the trash do not seem to be any more rewarding than 12-15f).

[Serela]

I recall the trek between 19 and hitting the 20 checkpoint(s) being the worst, but it was most likely my fault because I had over 1m yen that could have been exploding my party's stats- the issue was mostly how likely I was to get destroyed after doing all the puzzle to reach 20f. Also I eventually realized at some point I respec'd Nitori and forgot to give her maintennance, which kinda ruined her :V

[yoshicookiezeus]

Yuka down. I had realized that she'd probably use Master Spark when she was getting low on health, so I figured I'd just let Mokou take it and resurrect; however, I most definitely wasn't prepared for her to do nothing but alternating between Concentration and Master Spark. Mokou wasn't nearly fast enough to switch in someone else to attack in between Sparks, so it came down to her finishing off Yuka with her last Fujiyama Volcano before she ran out of TP for resurrecting. Extremely close victories are always the best kind :V

[Ghaleon]

yeah in my first playthru I tried reaching 1m moneyses (before it was partially changed to yen =P) before the final boss or so since like.... floor 15 or something? I forget, quite far in advance in any case. I think I had like 500k by the final floor and was like "I'm only half way there? and the stuff is super hard now cuz my skill levels are gimp? eff this", and spend them all...This time I didn't make that mistake again...I've been saving money since floor 1! (kidding), nah haven't been saving at all. That being said I just did the 19-20 find the save point thing grind and first... I don't know how someone can say lot1's 10-12f lock thing is game-breakingly bad and that lot 2's 19-20f is acceptable.. 2nd, even though it was worse than 10-12f imo, It still wasn't half as bad as lot2 13-15f IMO..

What's worse is I'm now 5 levels under the challenge level for the first sigil boss (and I explored absolutely everything except behind stones involving said sigil, and that 88 achievement stone).. 13-15f? I was TEN effing levels behind the challenge levels when I bumped into yuyu and fully explored everything possible (so 12 behind azure giant). I think that's actually more grinding required than maribel in lot1, which is the only part in all of lot1 that I admit requires grinding other than the 30f, which I don't even consider bad since the 20f grinding in lot1 is like 3x faster than lot2, and the loot they drop is far more drooly too

this whole post sounds lot1>lot2, which isn't my intention... I admit I actually think lot1 was a far more refined game than lot2 (lot2 has better dev-made music than lot1's special disc, though I prefer the public music in base lot1 more still, but lot2 looks way better, customization is more fun, respeccing is a must, achievements that matter are always super cool.... lot2 improves on 1 in many many ways...but I think 1 was still better at the very core in terms of boss balance, enemy balance, just...how much fun you had progressing thru new stuff. Skillpoints also seemed alot more fun to use... in lot2 they seem to matter a bit less, and increase in cost a LOT more... basically making it so you feel forced to spend them pretty darn evenly across all characters (minus atk for patchy, mag for marisa, def/mnd for flan, etc)... I felt like lot1 made skillpoint spending a LOT more flexable, while remaining viable.


...

ok so it still sounds like I prefer lot1, and I do, but not because I think it's objectively BETTER per say, in fact I think lot2 is in a measureable sense. I just think lot1 was better at the aspects that made dungeon crawler rpg fans attracted to such a game. Lot2 is still good in that regard, but it focuses more on the aspects that are kinda universal to every genre. Lot2 also adds some things that I was really drooling at, but their implimentation kinda left me disappointed.

Hard mode for example is a sham, it doesn't do anything to the game's difficulty except prevent you from doing things that you can prevent yourself from doing (which I DO do) anyway, so...yay? Now I can BRAG that I set it to hard knowing it didn't do anything at all? uhh...sigh. Accuracy/evasion mechanics did NOT have the mechanics I said would make it good, nor did they have mechanics that convinced me were as good or better than my suggestions (I know that sounds super stuck-up but...well...just read all my lot posts I made over the last 2 years!.... ok I know nobody will, I wouldn't myself even...Basically I admit there may be other mechanics which would be good but I just don't know what and the ones in this game didn't really give me the "YES" sense I was hoping that lot2 COULD...THAT doesn't sound stuckup I hope). Some things were rebalanced too... like most  underpowered characters were buffed, and most OP characters were nerfed...minus nitori...not sure why one of if not the most op damage dealer got buffed to potentially be op in EVERY aspect, bwuh? But yeah, China isn't as definitively the only true ultimate 1st slot tank... remiu isn't as derp to not take too, rumia is far more than a demarcation bot, aya is now more than a hits for 0 unless weak to wind otherwise speedbuff bot, though I think she got buffed too much into op.

Basically I just think lot 2 had many things going for it that made it look better...But somehow the fine tune balancing and number crunching in lot1 felt alot more important than I anticipated. It's hard to say what makes it better in an objective sense, I know lot2 is in that regard, but... =/. This isn't blind fanboism either. I was really drooling at lot2, and I DO love lot2...Hopefully the expansion in lot2 is better, cuz I admit that the expansion in 1 was kinda weak in the sense that it had half the floors, the 30f was stupid in terms of grind requirements, all the floor music was re-used, character per floor ratio nosedived (though not surprising since the base game had a good amount total), story per floor also was noticeably less. Not complaining, it was worth every penny of the import costs, but I think lot2's expansion just may even the gap, especially knowing it has a core-gameplay change announced like endless mode.. eeek.

omg if there was an lot endless length dungeon roguelike I'd...I'd...eeeek... nerdgasm.. accck.

[Serela]

aya is now more than a hits for 0 unless weak to wind otherwise speedbuff bot

Actually, in postgame LoT1 Aya is actually Chen 2.0 so long as you've got an atk buffer to keep her going. I used her in my last run of the game (special disk) and it was glorious; even pretty potent against the several plus-disk bosses RESISTANT to wind. I'd rank her as one of the highest potential endgame damage dealers.

[Ghaleon]

Actually yeah she didn't hit for 0 for me, and that self buff nuke was pretty good...I never actually got to make her do THAT  much damage though, and I played her to the very end too. Still though, I just find that her general value got buffed a lot in 2.

edit: Kinda at final boss now minus needing to grind about 8 levels to meet challenge level thingie (and I DONT want to fight that boss below that since the fight takes super long and can be super cheese as it is. Last time the stupid boss kept using world shaking military rule like every other turn, such a pain), I still have a bit to explore on the final area though...I forget, was there a ninja costume somewhere in that area? I don't have one at all yet and I noticed the nyphs drop one. I seem to recall actually getting one in my last game, did I actually manage to snag that 2.4% drop? Or is there one in a chest nearby? Also, I've determined gran centurio is the flan-oriented item =P. Even the mp gain is super needed since making her a gambler starves her of mp so bad. Kinda miss not having gambler at all for trash since her nukes are already pretty overkill on trash without it, minus forbidden fruit which is great against enemies that don't have good defenses and/or resistance....seems there's always at least one enemy that isn't bothered by it though in every pull.

Also Forbidden fruit looks like it should be Utsuho's nuke =P...Even sounds like one, and looks like that 2nd to last spellcard in SA.

[Yookie]

You can get the Ninja Costume only from those Nypmhs. There's none in any chests (Or I overlooked it in my runs.)