Inquiry about PC-98 love

[Tiamat]

Personally, I figured that Alice was a human mage-in-training in a gang of thieves, found Gensokyo with them, murdered them (Well, some of them anyways), finally lost her humanity and became a youkai during that incident, and then "walked towards the exit to paradise (Gensokyo)".  After which she reached Makai and became a resident of it.  And then Lotus Land Story happened.  Eventually Alice returned to Gensokyo for whatever reason and took up residence in that same house where she murdered her friends.

(That's derived speculation from Dolls in Pseudo Paradise (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Dolls_in_Pseudo_Paradise/Story) in case you didn't know)

...although then I figured that ZUN decided to mostly forget PC-98, especially since he says to ignore it in fanworks or asks people to "not care about the past" in his replies on that bulletin board.  But then he later on goes and makes UFO which has Makai in it so like.... whatever?

Nowadays I just assume it existed since there's things like Makai or what appears to be a Mima reference in CoLA but that the characters won't return despite how nonsensical their non-return is if PC-98 was canon, simply because ZUN doesn't want to bother with them for whatever reason (I think he mentioned them not fitting in? Or was that fan speculation? I don't remember) or explanations for them.

[Soul Devour]

is in serious need of a reboot. Good lord I forgot all about that thing.

Also, PC-98 is the tree that falls in the forest where there is no one around to hear it.

To me, that's because in Japan the games are quite rare, require a relic to play and piracy is huge no-no in Japan. In other places, I think it's the combination of the games not being translated (and thus making it harder for people to make emotionally connections to it) and the games almost flat out requiring piracy to even play (Good luck finding both a copy of just about any game and the computer itself, especially at any reasonable price). They aren't mainstream like pretty much any game from 6 and on either, so people aren't going to normally run into their existence.

[Prime32]

Personally, I think PC-98 Alice is human

Uh...

A human like you coming here probably means that you're prepared to to face us!!

This is magic that a human like you would never be able to master.

[unknowen]

My love PC-98 character: Yumeko, because she have nice danmaku.

[Kwak]

Uh...

You'd talk that way too if you were raised in Makai

It's a stretch, I know, but [making things up] is [making things up]

[Drake]

headcanon: so we can use the word canon inside a term for making things up

[chirpy13]

It doesn't really matter either way what Alice was in Mystic Square.  If she was a youkai in Mystic Square then she became one before the events of MS.  Either way it still works.

She's grown up, lives in a large house in the Forest rather than in Makai and any relation to Makai has been completely forgotten. Pretty much everything about her besides "she has a grimoire" has been changed

PMiSS states that she only recently became a magician and so it's normal that she would have aged, considering she wouldn't be (and likely still isn't) the type of magician who has stopped aging yet.  How quickly she aged could be considered questionable, but the same could be said of Reimu looking childish and having purple hair in the PC98 games and suddenly having black hair and appearing more adult in EoSD.  And then you have the hair color swap on Marisa between SoEW and PoDD, and the de-aging of Reimu after HRtP, both of which occur within the PC98 games.  I wouldn't really take physical appearances within PC98 too literally.  With regard to her change in residence people can move and Makai and the Forest of Magic are both pretty suitable locations for magicians.  It's also quite likely that she lived somewhere else in Gensokyo before becoming a magician (a normal human growing up in Makai is rather odd) and only went to Makai to improve her magic, which would support a move (back to) Gensokyo.  Of course that part is just speculation... In any case, I wouldn't say "everything about her has been changed" so much as she's just become more developed than a little girl who desperately wants to show off her strength.

PC-98 Alice was a demon with a playing card motif, who goes out of her way to fight at full strength, is younger-looking than the protagonists and was born in Makai. Windows Alice is a human-turned-magician with a doll motif, who never fights at full strength, is older-looking than the protagonists and is implied to have been born in Bucharest. They're almost nothing alike.

Not being a human doesn't make her a demon.  She still used dolls in Mystic Square stage 3 and the card thing only really applied to the stage portion of Extra to fit with the Wonderland theme, rather than Alice herself where she just uses spells from her grimoire.  It's also never stated or even implied that she was born in Makai.  All we know is that she just happens to be there during the course of the game, which doesn't really say anything about her origins.

[Zil]

It's also never stated or even implied that she was born in Makai.

inb4 Shinki created everyone bullshit

[Mr. Hlaaluington]

...and the de-aging of Reimu after HRtP...

I honestly feel that HRtP is just... not canon. ZUN stated that there was not meant to be a connection between HRtP and SoEW. Alternatively, I do have a little fan-theory on where HRtP might be placed in the time-line: If you pay attention to Reimu's in-game sprite, the resemblance to Windows Reimu is uncanny. Reimu also does not have Genji during the game, possibly during a point when she was training to fly. Plus, the bottom of some of the backgrounds in Sariel's fight suggests that Makai is in ruins, which supports the fact that Shinki obliterated Makai in the events of MS. So I logically conclude that HRtP takes place after MS but before EoSD.

Back on Topic:
Tengukami's "orthodoxing" thing applies very well to me. Despite being born after the release of Mystic Square, I still can't help but feel that the PC-98 games were just meant for me. The fact that they were the foundation for the Windows games is outstanding. Believe it or not, there was a time when I thought the Touhou series started at 6 (EoSD). I especially love the FM sound, it really appeals to me. On another note, the PC-98 games are only 42 MB total (Average size of 8.4 MB each); the Windows games are 8.8 GB (Average size of 430 MB each).

[Drake]

PMiSS states that she only recently became a magician and so it's normal that she would have aged, considering she wouldn't be (and likely still isn't) the type of magician who has stopped aging yet.  How quickly she aged could be considered questionable

I should reiterate that it was more of a character design change than actual aging, because as you say, whether or not the characters have actually aged that much is complete conjecture. I was going off of the common opinion that Alice aged in a very noticeable manner.

but the same could be said of Reimu looking childish and having purple hair in the PC98 games and suddenly having black hair and appearing more adult in EoSD.  And then you have the hair color swap on Marisa between SoEW and PoDD, and the de-aging of Reimu after HRtP, both of which occur within the PC98 games.  I wouldn't really take physical appearances within PC98 too literally.

However, I'd disagree a bit with these comparisons. The usual opinion that Alice has aged stems from people seeing Alice's change as significant, but any changes with Reimu and Marisa, including their apparent age, as insignificant. The purple hair business I find was probably due to limitations in color and ZUN just stuck with it, and during the change to Windows he went to what he actually wanted. The hair color swap with Marisa I guess might be similar, because I assume this happened when ZUN started thinking about reusing Marisa as a character and changed her accordingly. But whatever.

In any case, I wouldn't say "everything about her has been changed" so much as she's just become more developed than a little girl who desperately wants to show off her strength.

Design change, development of an actual personality, evolution in doll theme, clarification that she's a human turned magician youkai, big change in location, previous location is never mentioned at all... You can try to go back and suggest how or why each of these things might have happened in-universe, but the result is the same. Alice isn't really Alice.

With regard to her change in residence people can move and Makai and the Forest of Magic are both pretty suitable locations for magicians.  It's also quite likely that she lived somewhere else in Gensokyo before becoming a magician (a normal human growing up in Makai is rather odd) and only went to Makai to improve her magic, which would support a move (back to) Gensokyo.  Of course that part is just speculation...

Not being a human doesn't make her a demon.  She still used dolls in Mystic Square stage 3 and the card thing only really applied to the stage portion of Extra to fit with the Wonderland theme, rather than Alice herself where she just uses spells from her grimoire.  It's also never stated or even implied that she was born in Makai.  All we know is that she just happens to be there during the course of the game, which doesn't really say anything about her origins.

These sort of hit on what I've been saying throughout the thread. There really just isn't enough information available in these games to make any sort of reasonably solid links between the PC-98 series and the information provided years later. ZUN didn't really think much about where he wanted all this stuff to go. When he decided to think about it in detail, we get all of this great flavorful web of stuff (even if it was a bit messy early on) -- if he had intended for it to work with the previous games, it wouldn't be so difficult and wrought with complete speculation to shake out how the current world might fit with the things from before.

[Raikaria]

Most of the PC-98 characters are extremely boring. Save for a few exceptions: Mima, Shinki, Yumeko... and... yeah.

You forgot Rika, who gets 2 stages and is more developed than a lot of Windows characters as a result. Yumemi and Chiyuri also have the single longest dialogue by far of any characters. So, yeah, they're pretty developed by Touhou standards too, except form the playables [Including those in IN] and the focal characters of the mangas.

Yuki and Mai also have quite the dailouge and are unique in Touhou being a duel boss.
 
Anyway, as a big proponent of love for the PC-98 characters, allow me to explain:

A big thing that is so attractive about them to me at least is exactly the fact that about them are question marks. They are mysterious, and as such, it allows theories to flourish about them, and the characters to be developed.

For example, WHY does Rika dislike Reimu enough to send tanks at her? She dosen't appear to be working for Mima, or after the power of Hakurei like the others in SoEW. I usually go with 'Rika's a mad scientist who hates youkai, and thus Reimu who gets along with them for a human'.

Or 'Why is Yumeko called the 'Doll of Misery'? What is her power where she turns into a green outline and phases around?

Or Elly. Why does she work for Yuuka? Why does she have so many references in her design and even the name of her theme [Seriously look up the meaning and just as importantly the origin of 'Perdition'] to Ankou, a personification of death? And if as that suggests she is a Shinigami of sorts [Both the Ankou and a Shinigami are personifications of death...]; WHY DOES SHE WORK FOR YUUKA?

This is all from someone who would happily put Shinki, Rika and Elly in their Top 10 of characters, Yumemi probobly in the Top 15, and Mai somewhere in the Top 20.

Although, there are some characters who get no love at all. Like Orange and Sara and... who was that samurai in SoEW again? Notable in that most of these have been 'replaced' of sorts [Former two by Meiling, latter by Youmu]. With the exception of Yumeko, who was 'replaced' by Sakuya but is still rather popular in her own right.

Also a lot of people say 'when is there going to be a Christian thingy in Touhou' after the Taoists and Buddhists and Shinto sections. Most of them don't realise that PC-98 had loads and loads and loads of Christianity references.

Specifically:
- Sariel's angelic appearance is like a Christan Angel
- Yumemi's weapons are CROSSES
- Perdition Crisis
- The land you fight Yuki and Mai is a land of Fire and Ice in Makai, which is the daemon world [Aka: Basically Hell]. A lot of depictions of Hell are both fire and ice. [Dante, anyone?]
- Pandemonium [Shinki's castle]
- Shinki herself is a very strong reference to Lucifer

Makai is always tied with Christian references. Hell, Byakuren was in Makai and what did the fandom nickname her? Youkai JESUS.

Also despite all this PC-98 love I throw around, I'm not one of those people who keep pineing for the return of characters. In fact I frequently speak against the guys who keep thinking Mima will come back.

PC-98 is an interesting place if you actually dig.